If enemies are buffed?

[kuciol]

16 minutes ago, Cubewano said:

How do you figure those are related? The game was much younger then, with less content, and less funding, in turn less advertising, and less publicity, it was a game still largely getting on its feet as a result of a rushed release, it's kind of expected it'd have less of an audience given circumstances. 

How do you figure it isnt? They have a choice between keeping doing what they are doing or take a huge gamble and completely change the direction. Why change something that clearly works?

[Cubewano]

2 minutes ago, kuciol said:

How do you figure it isnt? They have a choice between keeping doing what they are doing or take a huge gamble and completely change the direction. Why change something that clearly works?

Because it continued to grow. And it's bold of you to assume this works given how often DE try to find ways to circumvent our growth, and there being complaints every other day about the matter. People seemed far more satisfied with the games balance when it had one, and DE had far more ease with their difficulty structure. As for changing what works, you could ask the same of the past balance. We didn't get to where we are today by magic. 

[kuciol]

Just now, Cubewano said:

Because it continued to grow. And it's bold of you to assume this works given how often DE try to find ways to circumvent our growth, and there being complaints every other day about the matter. People seemed far more satisfied with the games balance when it had one, and DE had far more ease with their difficulty structure. As for changing what works, you could ask the same of the past balance. We didn't get to where we are today by magic. 

Provide evidence of that. I can see steam charts that show steady growth over the years. All you have is hopes and dreams.

[VentiGlondi]

Quote

Running speed is doubled

Doubled? Do you realize how stupid that's going to look? You should probably ask for Benny Hill theme to go with it.

Quote

Now they hide behind cover completely, leaving no body parts exposed

Contortionist grineer.

Quote

They put suppressing fire, laying down a bullet hell on you while some moves around to surround you

You mean the exact thing that happens when there's more than 5 enemies.

Quote

Accuracy is greatly increased

Someone mains a tank frame I see.

Quote

Enemies now have range awareness, retreating to a distance where your skills don't hit them and have rough calculation to stay away from your ability range. Combat range where they open fire is increased

The range of your abilities varies depending on the mods you equipped. That basically means the enemy has the exact knowledge of what mods you have on your Warframe.

2 hours ago, 844448 said:

instead of waiting them to come to you

Do you really think anyone wants to wait in this game?

Edited August 11, 2019 by VentiGlondi

[Cubewano]

1 minute ago, kuciol said:

Provide evidence of that. I can see steam charts that show steady growth over the years. All you have is hopes and dreams.

Evidence of what? Growth? You just cited the evidence. 

[kuciol]

1 minute ago, Cubewano said:

Evidence of what? Growth? You just cited the evidence. 

Evidence that players like it more when it was slower and "more balanced". 

[(PSN)FriendSharkey]

Ugh...All I want to see out of the enemies is new ones prefferably massive monster types to fight off the boredom in their open worlds and DE ripping off Alien Isolation for the Infested Assassin...not Destiny...

[Cubewano]

1 minute ago, kuciol said:

Evidence that players like it more when it was slower and "more balanced". 

The lack of constant twenty page balance threads every other day debating the games state. But note I'm not saying my opinion is for certain, but it does seem to be the impression from my experience. If you can disprove it feel free to. 

[kuciol]

Just now, Cubewano said:

The lack of constant twenty page balance threads every other day debating the games state. But note I'm not saying my opinion is for certain, but it does seem to be the impression from my experience. If you can disprove it feel free to. 

And here we have a problem. You base all of that on account of few whiners (yes few, there are always the same names popping up) that are just bored of the game. Take off your rose tinted glasses. The game was worse, period. People today play it because of what it is and not of what it was. Players that look for gameplay like you described already play Destiny (and those poor souls that bought Anthem) and there is to much risk involved in sudden change of direction. You may cry for endgame or challenge as much as you want but the truth is you will never get it. Its just pointless to make content just for minority, we talk about 3-5 years of development on most cases and you ask for that based only on hopes and your own boredom.

[stormy505]

8 minutes ago, Cubewano said:

The lack of constant twenty page balance threads every other day debating the games state. But note I'm not saying my opinion is for certain, but it does seem to be the impression from my experience. If you can disprove it feel free to. 

People complaining will always happen with games, and it becomes far more noticeable the more popular a game is. This isn't like world of Warcraft where the game had a steady decline in both quality and player numbers that accurately represented that quality. Warframe has improved comparatively from where it started and the player numbers show that.

if you have evidence that isn't a side effect of a game succeeding or isn't anecdotal, I'd be much more willing to hear you out on how you think the game can improve by back peddling.

[VentiGlondi]

1 minute ago, stormy505 said:

I'd be much more willing to hear you out on how you think the game can improve by back peddling.

Warframe could improve its difficulty by going back. Sure, the game improved in giving you interesting choices for play with, but with those choices came an absurd amount of power. Most people are going to argue that Warframe is a game about deleting enemies with as much efficiency as possible, but this just completely screws with the difficulty.

Enemies that deal low amounts of damage, take low effort to kill.

Enemies that deal moderate amounts of damage don't take moderate amount of effort to kill. They require low effort as well.

Enemies that deal high amounts of damage also take low effort to dispose of.

The enemies that deal ludicrous amounts of damage take moderate amount of effort to kill. I am so strong that the only enemies that don't get just outright deleted the moment they see me, are the same enemies that can destroy me by sneezing in my direction. And it's not even hard to reach this sort of power at this point.

And DE's response to that is introducing enemies that just slap the controller out of your hands so that they have a few seconds more before you delete them.

[(PSN)Silverback73]

3 hours ago, 844448 said:

Let's say these are some buffs on grineer and corpus I'm going to suggest to DE

1. Running speed is doubled (or made to be as fast as Garesh on dog days)

2. Now they hide behind cover completely, leaving no body parts exposed

3. They react better when behind cover, quickly retreat to cover when damaged

4. They put suppressing fire, laying down a bullet hell on you while some moves around to surround you

5. Grenades are more often to flush you out

6. They now have improved blind fire, only having the weapons visible instead of a bit of their arm exposed

7. Accuracy is greatly increased, damage is tuned to make it "fair enough"

8. Enemies now have range awareness, retreating to a distance where your skills don't hit them and have rough calculation to stay away from your ability range. Combat range where they open fire is increased

Don't worry, press 4 to win will still viable, just need to approach them instead of waiting them to come to you

 

Faster, slightly more accurate enemies would be a nice start...just do everything a bit faster to make them more elite versions of standard units.  The game stays the same, but the threat level ticks up.

Here’s the issue in a nutshell:

”The Manic Conundrum”

Grineer Manics used to be fast and NASTY.

They could blink-jump you if you didn’t keep moving and pull a Claws-Maul finisher that would down you or take your health way down.

The threat was fun, exciting, and got your adrenaline up a bit...

And then for reasons that many of us CAN’T comprehend, DE nerfed them into irrelevance. (ok, admittedly I haven’t tried to find out...).

And now the current trend is the slower enemies... hit-box tanks that spam damage that are damage gated starting with the Nox all the way up to Profit Taker.

Edited August 11, 2019 by (PS4)Silverback73

[Kainosh]

41 minutes ago, kuciol said:

You make them run away, they will get annoying and nothing more, you make them hide we will just AoE them down or get punch through on every weapon and so on.

Your thought process is wrong.

 You think about ALL enemies all together, forgetting that we have MANY different types.   Some will hide, others will block aoe and ranged and such.... We already have that. Shield Lancers, Ballistas, Nullifiers. They are just so slow and unorganised that you cant really see their cooperation.

Also, their distinctive features are way too weak.   For example, Ballistas do run away and relocate...but they are so slow, that you can outrun them as Operator.  That should not happen.

Shield lancers also need a buff, as their shield is so weak and does not really protect them. Like...at all. You can mow them down from the front without any effort.

 

I tell you, it will be noticeable and it will increase gameplay variety if enemies will be a bit more....trained. Walking sanbags are not engaging enough for Warframe world. 

 

[Kainosh]

2 hours ago, Gabbynaru said:

It's clear you don't enjoy this one and want it to be something else

He would not bother posting if he didnt like Warframe.

Besides, his examle were not from Destiny or any other game.  "As fast as Garesh" is what he said.  Garesh is here. In Warframe.

 

Do you not want a bit more Garesh among normal Grineer troops? I do.  At least he can run while shooting....every augmented soldier should be able to do that to some extent.  Maybe not as much as Garesh...but at least 40% of them should be a bit more...mobile and trained, no?

 

I just dont get it....You guys asking for "challenge" and different enemy scaling....And AI improvements do both of these things.....and you be like "Nay".  Eh?

[844448]

22 minutes ago, (PS4)Silverback73 said:

Faster, slightly more accurate enemies would be a nice start...just do everything a bit faster to make them more elite versions of standard units.  The game stays the same, but the threat level ticks up.

Here’s the issue in a nutshell:

”The Manic Conundrum”

Grineer Manics used to be fast and NASTY.

They could blink-jump you if you didn’t keep moving and pull a Claws-Maul finisher that would down you or take your health way down.

The threat was fun, exciting, and got your adrenaline up a bit...

And then for reasons that many of us CAN’T comprehend, DE nerfed them into irrelevance. (ok, admittedly I haven’t tried to find out...).

And now the current trend is the slower enemies... hit-box tanks that spam damage that are damage gated starting with the Nox all the way up to Profit Taker.

Because so many players that can't handle manic being able to catch you from behind and cry

[stormy505]

46 minutes ago, VentiGlondi said:

Warframe could improve its difficulty by going back. Sure, the game improved in giving you interesting choices for play with, but with those choices came an absurd amount of power. Most people are going to argue that Warframe is a game about deleting enemies with as much efficiency as possible, but this just completely screws with the difficulty.

Enemies that deal low amounts of damage, take low effort to kill.

Enemies that deal moderate amounts of damage don't take moderate amount of effort to kill. They require low effort as well.

Enemies that deal high amounts of damage also take low effort to dispose of.

The enemies that deal ludicrous amounts of damage take moderate amount of effort to kill. I am so strong that the only enemies that don't get just outright deleted the moment they see me, are the same enemies that can destroy me by sneezing in my direction. And it's not even hard to reach this sort of power at this point.

And DE's response to that is introducing enemies that just slap the controller out of your hands so that they have a few seconds more before you delete them.

"Enemies that deal low amounts of damage, take low effort to kill.

Enemies that deal moderate amounts of damage don't take moderate amount of effort to kill. They require low effort as well.

Enemies that deal high amounts of damage also take low effort to dispose of.

The enemies that deal ludicrous amounts of damage take moderate amount of effort to kill. I am so strong that the only enemies that don't get just outright deleted the moment they see me, are the same enemies that can destroy me by sneezing in my direction. And it's not even hard to reach this sort of power at this point." 

In a horde shooter, I think it would be incredible dumb if every enemy was ludicrously hard to kill even when we've reached the height of our power. Making an easy way to face harder enemies might be a fix. Or trying to rework armor/damage scaling so it's more inline with one another, and correcting how elements interact with hp pools

"And DE's response to that is introducing enemies that just slap the controller out of your hands so that they have a few seconds more before you delete them." 

I honestly prefer the route of wolf, exploiter orb, new boss of the gas city etc since introducing those mechanics for difficulty is much better then just adding bullet sponges that you need to shoot at for 20 minutes before they die. But I'm not sure if that's what you mean when you say 'slap the controller out of the players hands.'

"Warframe could improve its difficulty by going back. Sure, the game improved in giving you interesting choices for play with, but with those choices came an absurd amount of power. Most people are going to argue that Warframe is a game about deleting enemies with as much efficiency as possible, but this just completely screws with the difficulty."

That's also what speed runners say. Being efficient for the sake of efficiency is fun for them. If a Dev actively tries to slow down a speeder runner, no one ends up happy, you ruin the experience for the players who don't play for efficiency, you forcefully slow down speed runners which ruins their enjoyment, and trying to block speed runners at every point usually makes a Dev fed up.

 

Edited August 11, 2019 by stormy505

[Cubewano]

1 hour ago, kuciol said:

And here we have a problem. You base all of that on account of few whiners (yes few, there are always the same names popping up) that are just bored of the game. Take off your rose tinted glasses. The game was worse, period. People today play it because of what it is and not of what it was. Players that look for gameplay like you described already play Destiny (and those poor souls that bought Anthem) and there is to much risk involved in sudden change of direction. You may cry for endgame or challenge as much as you want but the truth is you will never get it. Its just pointless to make content just for minority, we talk about 3-5 years of development on most cases and you ask for that based only on hopes and your own boredom.

I'm basing it off changes in behavior over the years, which is the most we can base things off of, spare you have a crystal ball to look into. Everything else you've said is just baseless "I believe" arguments, the game worse period in the past? Based off what? Players that want a balanced game play other games? Based off what? There is too much risk to change? Again based off what? You make all these pretend points based entirely off your own preference and treat them like fact when they certainly are not, you may not have liked anything about the past of warframe, you may think nobody wants balance, you may think it is a risk, thing is this game isn't just about you. 

[Cubewano]

1 hour ago, stormy505 said:

People complaining will always happen with games, and it becomes far more noticeable the more popular a game is. This isn't like world of Warcraft where the game had a steady decline in both quality and player numbers that accurately represented that quality. Warframe has improved comparatively from where it started and the player numbers show that.

if you have evidence that isn't a side effect of a game succeeding or isn't anecdotal, I'd be much more willing to hear you out on how you think the game can improve by back peddling.

And yet behaviors change and topics shift, against the static behavior you believe it all to be. You can say feedback is effectively meaningless because you don't like what it says, but that doesn't erase the reality of observation and visible trends. Dismissing information for the sake of it is the most naive thing one can do. 

That said there probably isn't anything I can bring forth personally to prove different, at least anything I'd be willing to reasonably pursue, but that's to my initial point which how baseless in kind the original respondent is in saying the opposite in that past balance is a clear sign of failure. This is all largely anecdotal. The only way to prove either truly valid is to apply the same principles on both ends to the same period of development. 

 

[Admortem_Inimicus]

That's all fine and dandy and all but uhm-... OH S#&$ I JUST PRESSED 4 ON MESA!

[844448]

5 hours ago, kuciol said:

Why you try to change warframe into destiny instead of playing damn destiny?

Where does that "I want to change warframe into destiny" come from?

[844448]

4 hours ago, Cubewano said:

Funnily enough this game used to be much more balanced like people are asking it to be, than the state you are currently defending it for. So they're more asking to go back to its core than anything. Warframe wasn't always devoid of any enemy threat, at least not so effortlessly, what a single frame can do today used to take an entire team with proper coordination to manage.

That said, just being different isn't a defense for something to be the way it is. If it's the creators desire/vision that's one thing, but as we all know de aren't exactly proud of present balance (or what they call no balance) that is Warframe. 

Eh, I prefer this "no balance" because it's fun seeing enemies die with one tap, showing how far my power has progressed than being balanced so hard that you hardly have choices

[VentiGlondi]

3 hours ago, stormy505 said:

 But I'm not sure if that's what you mean when you say 'slap the controller out of the players hands.'

I mean disabling the player in one way or the other.

While the players went away from spamming CC, enemies have more CC than ever some of which even ignore anti-CC mods like Handspring.

Also many enemies are completely immune to Warframe abilities, which are one of the defining features of the game.

3 hours ago, stormy505 said:

That's also what speed runners say. Being efficient for the sake of efficiency is fun for them. If a Dev actively tries to slow down a speeder runner, no one ends up happy, you ruin the experience for the players who don't play for efficiency, you forcefully slow down speed runners which ruins their enjoyment, and trying to block speed runners at every point usually makes a Dev fed up.

Why would you even bring up speedrunning here.

First of all speedrunners are a niche community, and I obviously care about my own enjoyment more than someone who tries to do time trials in a non-racing game.

Second of all, you're making it look like speedrunners only play fast-paced games.

Besides that you're completely missing the point. I am not trying to put roadblocks for speedrunners, I want the game not to have such a huge gap between player power and enemy toughness. Because if I can kill an enemy in 2 hits you'd think they're low level, but they deal 5000% of my HP in one bullet.

2 hours ago, 844448 said:

Eh, I prefer this "no balance" because it's fun seeing enemies die with one tap, showing how far my power has progressed than being balanced so hard that you hardly have choices

Ah yes, the many choices of "I can kill things in one tap" or "Someone else kills things in one tap before I could"

Edited August 11, 2019 by VentiGlondi

[844448]

58 minutes ago, VentiGlondi said:

I mean disabling the player in one way or the other.

While the players went away from spamming CC, enemies have more CC than ever some of which even ignore anti-CC mods like Handspring.

Also many enemies are completely immune to Warframe abilities, which are one of the defining features of the game.

Why would you even bring up speedrunning here.

First of all speedrunners are a niche community, and I obviously care about my own enjoyment more than someone who tries to do time trials in a non-racing game.

Second of all, you're making it look like speedrunners only play fast-paced games.

Ah yes, the many choices of "I can kill things in one tap" or "Someone else kills things in one tap before I could"

You prefer dog days damage model where who hits last gets the kill?

[VentiGlondi]

Just now, 844448 said:

You prefer dog days damage model where who hits last gets the kill?

How is this even relevant to anything we've talked about so far

[844448]

Just now, VentiGlondi said:

How is this even relevant to anything we've talked about so far

 

1 hour ago, VentiGlondi said:

Ah yes, the many choices of "I can kill things in one tap" or "Someone else kills things in one tap before I could"