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844448

If enemies are buffed?

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Il y a 10 heures, Gabbynaru a dit :

 I love Warframe the way it is. I'm here to be a god, game delivers on that. 

Neither you nor I can consider ourselves "gods" facing such stupid enemies.

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844448 is offering a way to make enemies more challenging without making them bulletsponges, and people are suddenly defensive. Apparently making the AI smarter is somehow going to ruin the game, because now they have to do a little bit of thinking when facing enemies, besides just increasing damage values of their weapons. Of course, I bet if DE actually did carry this out, everyone would kiss their ass and praise them for it, because they are totally flawless and can never do anything wrong, with the exception of that time they made Mesa Prime's butt too small. NOW THAT WAS UNACCEPTABLE!

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1 hour ago, Awazx said:

If the developers of [DE] were able to do what you ask, they would have done it a long time ago.

Want to see how the community suddenly melt overnight? Have an enemy that is slightly tougher like terra corpus or slightly faster like melee nullifier before the nerf. The community flipped out back then

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1 hour ago, Awazx said:

Neither you nor I can consider ourselves "gods" facing such stupid enemies.

Yeah, I can. You don't dictate the way I enjoy my game. If you can't feel the power fantasy this game provides you with, that's on you.

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il y a une heure, Gabbynaru a dit :

Yeah, I can. You don't dictate the way I enjoy my game. If you can't feel the power fantasy this game provides you with, that's on you.

Of course, you are free to continue in your self-deception.

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7 hours ago, 844448 said:

What makes feel that growth? Seeing how my damage number goes from merely two digits to five or six digits, along with higher enemies that I can take down faster

Now, I want to ask, what do you use to deal 10k to 100k? Even with chroma I'm still dealing only 4k per bullet so is it an exaggeration, riven build, or memeing strike?

There aren't really higher enemies that can take or even necessitate the kind of damage we amp up to though. It's a fairly quick dead end. 

And the numbers are fiction, pulled out of thin air, you can replace them with more familiar metrics if you like, their values aren't the point. I'm asking what's the difference between doing x damage to kill an enemy or x damage + 1, if they both ultimately have the same effect. Is just numeric growth enough growth for you, even if it has no actual effect on combat? How effective is that at actually making you feel more powerful? Does it stack up to instances where growth actually has an explicit impact? 

7 hours ago, 844448 said:

Not if you're the type that plays on normal walking pace and don't spam bullet jump

You'd also have to exclude a set assortments of frames and weapons. Needless to say that probably isn't a large, or lasting group, which still makes it a waste overall. Much more impactful things could be worked on than very intricate ai just to address people briefly who aren't familiar with the games systems yet. 

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3 hours ago, 844448 said:

Want to see how the community suddenly melt overnight? Have an enemy that is slightly tougher like terra corpus or slightly faster like melee nullifier before the nerf. The community flipped out back then

You know the weird thing? I actually don't mind those enemies that much.

The only enemy DE has ever released that I could not stand to even look at was the Wolf, but that was likely because he was just a sandbag with a hammer duct taped onto it.

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39 minutes ago, Cubewano said:

There aren't really higher enemies that can take or even necessitate the kind of damage we amp up to though. It's a fairly quick dead end. 

And the numbers are fiction, pulled out of thin air, you can replace them with more familiar metrics if you like, their values aren't the point. I'm asking what's the difference between doing x damage to kill an enemy or x damage + 1, if they both ultimately have the same effect. Is just numeric growth enough growth for you, even if it has no actual effect on combat? How effective is that at actually making you feel more powerful? Does it stack up to instances where growth actually has an explicit impact? 

You'd also have to exclude a set assortments of frames and weapons. Needless to say that probably isn't a large, or lasting group, which still makes it a waste overall. Much more impactful things could be worked on than very intricate ai just to address people briefly who aren't familiar with the games systems yet. 

there's some actual effect to me, seeing how from having enemies on earth taking a couple of bullets to kill and now being able to do overkill damage on them. Not only that, seeing enemies on higher level die faster has the actual impact to me, with x + 1 being more damage dealt on an enemy

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7 minutes ago, 844448 said:

there's some actual effect to me, seeing how from having enemies on earth taking a couple of bullets to kill and now being able to do overkill damage on them. Not only that, seeing enemies on higher level die faster has the actual impact to me, with x + 1 being more damage dealt on an enemy

but that isn't the premise i posed, and it isn't the reality of the game to our utmost growth, you're only considering to the extent it has impact and then not acknowledging how much past that we go. the pinnacle of our strength is well above the interactions you've regarded, well past when we can instantly kill earth targets, or these indescript high level targets, and that gap, the gap between the most optimal and excess is what i'm trying to address. when you reach the point where all damage is an immediate kill + 1, in that scenario where is the value to you? is just that numerical growth truly enough? or optimal? i want to assume not since you avoid addressing it. do you genuinely not think it could be done better? or that power growth can remain an option without our faulty heights? perhaps better player to enemy interactions would enhance the feeling of growth? 

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13 minutes ago, Cubewano said:

but that isn't the premise i posed, and it isn't the reality of the game to our utmost growth, you're only considering to the extent it has impact and then not acknowledging how much past that we go. the pinnacle of our strength is well above the interactions you've regarded, well past when we can instantly kill earth targets, or these indescript high level targets, and that gap, the gap between the most optimal and excess is what i'm trying to address. when you reach the point where all damage is an immediate kill + 1, in that scenario where is the value to you? is just that numerical growth truly enough? or optimal? i want to assume not since you avoid addressing it. do you genuinely not think it could be done better? or that power growth can remain an option without our faulty heights? perhaps better player to enemy interactions would enhance the feeling of growth? 

In what way do you want to enhance the feeling of growth? I like killing enemies with immediate kill +1, it shows the value of my effort working on that power. If you have any idea on enhancing the feeling of growth without making it into a boring "hit enemies here to kill it quickly", I welcome it

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2 hours ago, 844448 said:

In what way do you want to enhance the feeling of growth? I like killing enemies with immediate kill +1, it shows the value of my effort working on that power. If you have any idea on enhancing the feeling of growth without making it into a boring "hit enemies here to kill it quickly", I welcome it

by giving it actual purpose and impact, rather than just flashy numbers, for the growth to actually play into the games systems and have a distinct effect to your gameplay rather than something arbitrary and theoretical. but that said, you've yet to explain why you like what we have now, how does that extra numeric show or reward your effort? how does it make you feel power? why do you feel it is the most optimal place to land? there are so many games out there that allow power growth without making it arbitrary and visual, why is its state for warframe so exceptional and urgent to remain where it is to you?

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1 minute ago, Cubewano said:

by giving it actual purpose and impact, rather than just flashy numbers, for the growth to actually play into the games systems and have a distinct effect to your gameplay rather than something arbitrary and theoretical. but that said, you've yet to explain why you like what we have now, how does that extra numeric show or reward your effort? how does it make you feel power? why do you feel it is the most optimal place to land? there are so many games out there that allow power growth without making it arbitrary and visual, why is its state for warframe so exceptional and urgent to remain where it is to you?

Well, what is this purpose and impact? For me, the flashy numbers is my purpose and impact, giving me motivation to test out more build that being riskier but gives higher number and it has the impact to me because what I can't kill in one shot before now die in one shot. It has the impact and power to me, being a god that wipes out the mortals

I've explained it already, seeing the extra numeric show rewards my effort. Building it from scratch, putting potato, forma and mods to be able to perform on sortie 3 faster and faster. From nothing to something

What kind of game that allows power growth without making it arbitrary and visual? I haven't seen one so far

This is why I can stand playing warframe from 2014 without a single break, The flashy numbers I see coupled with immediate kill +1 gives the feel of growth, compared to other games like destiny where you can see your number goes up, but no difference in killing speed whatsoever.

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everything besides accuracy sounds good. Incentivising the idea that you can't stand in 1 spot and expect to not get shot or overwhelmed isn't too hard of a stretch I'd say

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21 hours ago, Gabbynaru said:

I'm here to Dynasty Warriors/EDF my way through fools

So....its you who came here for "another game's feel".  

 

Please notice that i didnt mention any other game in this thread.

We talk purely about Warframe features and how to improve em.

Besides, noone ever asked for "Bulletsponges" like Nox or Spiders.  Look:

On 2019-08-11 at 11:59 AM, 844448 said:

1. Running speed is doubled (or made to be as fast as Garesh on dog days)

2. Now they hide behind cover completely, leaving no body parts exposed

3. They react better when behind cover, quickly retreat to cover when damaged

4. They put suppressing fire, laying down a bullet hell on you while some moves around to surround you

5. Grenades are more often to flush you out

6. They now have improved blind fire, only having the weapons visible instead of a bit of their arm exposed

7. Accuracy is greatly increased, damage is tuned to make it "fair enough"

8. Enemies now have range awareness, retreating to a distance where your skills don't hit them and have rough calculation to stay away from your ability range. Combat range where they open fire is increased

Only improvements and polishing of what enemies already do (exept 8...dunno about range of abilities, but they should at least react to static hazards).   Just to make em do what they do slightly faster and better. Because now it feels lacking.

 

 

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Just now, Kainosh said:

So....its you who came here for "another game's feel". 

Actually, I played Warframe first, then went on to give the others a try, seeing how I quite enjoy Warframe, but I figured I'd name drop Dynasty Warriors and EDF, just in case someone wasn't aware that Warframe isn't this unique game where everything is weak and you are strong and that there are other, even older examples of this philosophy out there.

4 minutes ago, Kainosh said:

Only improvements and polishing of what enemies already do

You call that polishing, I call it adding inconveniences without any positives for the player. I don't find it fun to have enemies be invincible when I am clearly wailing at them, just cause they're sitting behind a chest high wall. As for improved accuracy... Yeah, the enemies originally protecting Profit-Taker were sooooooooooo much fun. Please. As I said, genetically degraded clones with no training, traders and mindless, parasitically controlled drones. Their abilities and capabilities, as it stands, fit them perfectly.

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14 hours ago, xxFalconArasxx said:

844448 is offering a way to make enemies more challenging without making them bulletsponges, and people are suddenly defensive. Apparently making the AI smarter is somehow going to ruin the game, because now they have to do a little bit of thinking when facing enemies, besides just increasing damage values of their weapons. Of course, I bet if DE actually did carry this out, everyone would kiss their ass and praise them for it, because they are totally flawless and can never do anything wrong, with the exception of that time they made Mesa Prime's butt too small. NOW THAT WAS UNACCEPTABLE!

None of these changes are significant enough to make the game more challenging, some of them are just plain silly (you can already ask a Nova to show you how dumb enemies with double speed would look like), some just make no sense (supressing fire? In a game where everything is already suppressing fire at you from all directions at any given moment?).

Making enemies more accurate would have to come with changing all the enemy guns into projectile-based, because hitscan is literally impossible to avoid, otherwise it's just pushing tank meta even further for no real reason and calling it a challenge.

Calling this "smart AI" is a stretch.

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The ideas need to be more refined to work, and the AI alone isn't the only part of it. Also Warframe currently has difficulty more comparable to phone games, but we also can't let these people fail.

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2 hours ago, VentiGlondi said:

None of these changes are significant enough to make the game more challenging, some of them are just plain silly (you can already ask a Nova to show you how dumb enemies with double speed would look like), some just make no sense (supressing fire? In a game where everything is already suppressing fire at you from all directions at any given moment?).

Making enemies more accurate would have to come with changing all the enemy guns into projectile-based, because hitscan is literally impossible to avoid, otherwise it's just pushing tank meta even further for no real reason and calling it a challenge.

Calling this "smart AI" is a stretch.

I want to make clear that I don't agree with literally everything 844448 says. The grenade spam suggestion I think is a terrible idea, but I can recognise good ideas in a heap of bad ones when I see them. You are cherry picking suggestions that have nothing to do with AI, and ignoring everything else he/she proposed. What about their points about taking cover, flanking, combat awareness, team coordination, and fight/flight instincts? Increased speed and accuracy have nothing to do with AI. These are simple number tweaks.

But, to respond to the speed and accuracy argument. You do realise that most of the enemies lack a sprint animation? They always jog or walk, so increasing their speed won't make their movement wonky if they are given new animations to account for it. As for accuracy, the enemies actually have a tracking delay when shooting, this is most obvious with the rapid fire enemies such as the Heavy Gunners and Elite Crewmen, where their shots lag behind when the player is moving quickly.

I don't think you know what suppressive fire is. Suppressive fire is where a soldier fires with the intent to reduce the combat performance of an enemy, rather than with the intent to kill. This includes shooting around cover to prevent the enemy from exiting said cover, and/or preventing the enemy from firing at your allies while they are closing in to the enemy position. We never see this in Warframe. They always fire with the intent to kill, and never with the intent to support allies that are trying to close in.

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On 2019-08-12 at 10:20 AM, xxFalconArasxx said:

844448 is offering a way to make enemies more challenging without making them bulletsponges, and people are suddenly defensive. Apparently making the AI smarter is somehow going to ruin the game, because now they have to do a little bit of thinking when facing enemies, besides just increasing damage values of their weapons. Of course, I bet if DE actually did carry this out, everyone would kiss their ass and praise them for it, because they are totally flawless and can never do anything wrong, with the exception of that time they made Mesa Prime's butt too small. NOW THAT WAS UNACCEPTABLE!

The issue with the proposed changes is that cover just incentivizes the use of splash damage and giant projectiles. You can still kill everything behind a cover with an Arca Plasmor because of the giant projectile, or with a Staticor because of the gigantic splash radius. Smarter enemies just make using normal weapons less effective, and thus just creates an even ´more boring meta of a few splash/big projectile weapons.

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1 hour ago, Cloverskull said:

The issue with the proposed changes is that cover just incentivizes the use of splash damage and giant projectiles. You can still kill everything behind a cover with an Arca Plasmor because of the giant projectile, or with a Staticor because of the gigantic splash radius. Smarter enemies just make using normal weapons less effective, and thus just creates an even ´more boring meta of a few splash/big projectile weapons.

Reason you can kill everything behind cover with arca plasmor because they have small amount of body parts peeking out, making the cover useless

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En 11/8/2019 a las 5:38, George_PPS dijo:

Warframe is a super fast paced and mass enemy annihilation game. If it is turned into a slow game, it’s no longer warframe. 

Railjack / Empyrion

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Why not get rid of resurections, if you dont get ressed by a team mate you are out and the team is one man down. Or the other way around, you dont get revived by others, you only can get downed so many times before you are out...

Lets start somewhere

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24 minutes ago, Crasharr said:

Why not get rid of resurections, if you dont get ressed by a team mate you are out and the team is one man down. Or the other way around, you dont get revived by others, you only can get downed so many times before you are out...

Lets start somewhere

Warframe already had a system like that, where you were limited on how many times you could revive and had to pay plat to get more revives (or wait until they reset).  

That isn't a good idea .

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As a just average player who has no interest in putting myself through extra stress.  No thank you. 

For average play warframe works fine as is to crack skulls destress and look at the neat visuals.

I play games to get away from the daily stress and annoyances.  Games don't exist for ego to me. I'm not after being challenged.

I'm too old and too tired to deal with more bs.

But for folks wanting another difficulty setting to fluff thier egos.  Sure have the option to shift the missions into a harder difficulty.

Why not have a menu when choosing a mission to set enemy level, and/or special handicaps to make things harder.

Thats what high wave endless maps exist for.  Or nightmare missions. Thats the games hard mode.

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