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motorfirebox

Make bows OP again

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Posted (edited)

Bows were my first love in Warframe; I spent my starter plat on the mats to make a Paris. They're just satisfying to use. Getting that perfect sight picture in the middle of an aimglide and scoring a triple headshot? No better feeling in the world. But I'm gonna complain about bows a bit, so I just want to preempt all the "l2p" responses. I've got over 3,100 hours played, and if you check my profile, my most-used weapon is Dread at 32%, and Paris Prime right behind it at 14%. The next-highest weapon is at 6%. I have L'ed to P.

Anyway. Given how relatively difficult they are to use compared to other weapons, bow damage is kinda uninspiring. The payoff to their exceedingly low rate of fire and slow projectiles isn't really worth it. The biggest advantage is their punchthrough. Both shotguns and snipers beat bows for per-shot damage—and generally speaking both of those have much higher rates of fire, and are mostly hitscan. The one sniper exception, the Lanka, has a projectile speed well over double that of the fastest-projectile bow. (There are projectile shotguns, but projectile speed doesn't really matter much at shotgun range.)

Nobody who knows what they're doing brings a bow to an eidolon fight, y'know? And I feel like for the drawbacks you have to deal with when using a bow, the reward in terms of damage output should be higher. Maybe not DPS, it's fine for a bow to have low DPS. If you're carrying a bow, you're not trying to get a high bodycount, you're trying to pick out high-value targets and put them down. So a bow's per-shot damage should, in my opinion, be much higher.

As a lover of bows and shooting things with them, I was pretty pumped for that little moment in the new trailer, when Excalibro one-shots an Orokin Bolkor with a friggin' Paris. A Paris. Not even a Paris Prime, a regular Paris. Maybe even a Mk-1.

So in the spirit of that moment of badass... what would be the downside to giving the Paris 500 total base damage on a charged shot? What if the Paris Prime and Dread had 900 base damage? As it stands, the highest-damage bow has a bit over half the damage of a plain jane Tigris—despite the Daikyu being MR10 compared to the Tigris's MR7. Heck, the Exergis at MR8 has almost three times the damage (though it's also one of the few weapons that can claim a lower fire rate than bows).

From what I can see, the only real difference is that bows would become more viable in endgame boss fights. Against most normal mobs, it almost wouldn't matter—a properly modded bow already one-shots most enemies up through sortie, and you're already firing as fast as you possibly can. You're not going to kill more enemies, you just have a better chance against Bolkors and eidolons and the like.

If that's too much, you could keep bows' damage the same or a little higher, but give them reverse falloff. The further away a target is, up to 150m or something, the higher the damage. Landing a 150m shot might net you 1000% base damage. A more reasonable 75m shot would net you a mere 500%, enough to give the Paris Prime almost as much damage as the Lanka.

Another option might be to increase the body part multiplier for bows. Where a regular weapon does 2x on a headshot, a bow would get 4x. Bows are for precision, so precision should be rewarded.

 

Tl;dr bows are weak and need a buff. Give bows a straight triple to their base damage, and/or give them reverse falloff damage (the longer the shot, the higher the damage), and/or give them a higher body part multiplier.

Edited by motorfirebox
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@motorfirebox I don't have much to say other than I agree. :crylaugh:
As a short anecdote, because I relate to you a bit:
I attempted Warframe twice a bunch of years ago and I didn't use a bow - that was a huge mistake. Ended up giving up on it after few hours.
I came back for the third time and picked up the Paris MK1.
It was magical. Stealth approach, aiming for these headshots, enemies impaled to walls and these stealth multipliers. Paired with Volt's passive I could mitigate lack of mods.
I'm not using bows much anymore, but recently I equiped Paris Prime again and it's just as nice to use as I remember.
Hopefully we'll see that trailer levels of bow power Soon™. :satisfied:

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I think a great way to give bows a kick is to add channeling and multishots (not the mod, the technique).

 Allowing these trick shots would add a lot of versatility and appeal alot to many. Including myself.

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6 hours ago, motorfirebox said:

Nobody who knows what they're doing brings a bow to an eidolon fight, y'know?

I still did it for the lolz anyways.

Also, how about innate multiprocs to make them status-viable?

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Posted (edited)
9 hours ago, motorfirebox said:

As a lover of bows and shooting things with them, I was pretty pumped for that little moment in the new trailer, when Excalibro one-shots an Orokin Bolkor with a friggin' Paris. A Paris. Not even a Paris Prime, a regular Paris. Maybe even a Mk-1.

Sorry, couldn't find a better source: https://9gag.com/gag/aGZWqX0

Edited by ShortCat
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Bow damage needs to be increased by a lot, otherwise I see no use of using one when we have rubico and opticor

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14 hours ago, Shaburanigud said:

I think a great way to give bows a kick is to add multishots (not the mod, the technique).

Absolutely not. That involves giving every bow the shotgun pellet bullet type treatment. And nobody uses Cernos prime because it’s just a slow shotgun.

I like the idea of channeling. Maybe a mod that increases the damage the longer you hold the arrow back.

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Posted (edited)

In the past my expectation was they would add some kind of arrow mechanic where you can adjust bows within a mission. So they wouldn´t be the most powerful but at least the most versatile weapons (things like splitt arrows against groups or piercing arrows against single targets etc). But ever since they added Ivara I´ve scraped this hope.

Also I´d like to add another disadvantage to the list: status procs. However due to how status favours fire rate and hitscan as well I doubt you can fix this problem by changing bows.

4 hours ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

I like the idea of channeling. Maybe a mod that increases the damage the longer you hold the arrow back.

I think some kind of charge mechanic could be a good alternative. However I´m not a fan of adding another probably mandatory mod. I´d prefer to have this as a core mechanic for standard bow´s like the sniper rifle zoom bonus.

Edited by Arcira
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Posted (edited)
8 hours ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

Absolutely not. That involves giving every bow the shotgun pellet bullet type treatment. And nobody uses Cernos prime because it’s just a slow shotgun.

I like the idea of channeling. Maybe a mod that increases the damage the longer you hold the arrow back.

Hmm honestly didn't think about the shotgun pellet thing.
I was just thinking each arrow would still be the same whether it was a single shot or a multishot.

The catch is it uses more ammo and has much less accuracy.

 

For Channeling, I was just thinking each shot could consume energy for increased damage and maybe some more range and punch through.
Like we saw in the new cinematic in Tennocon.

Edited by Shaburanigud

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Bows should have innate multi-shot 100% (no pellet mechanic like shotguns), and in general: a 300 increase in base damage to all of them. 

That would solve 2 problems: damage, status procs. 

Just that simple, a monkey could thought of it, but does DE cares? I think not

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On 2019-08-11 at 8:07 PM, motorfirebox said:

Make bows OP again

 

They did. It's called the Lenz. lo

Joking aside...

I can understand the sentiment. My primary weapon usage path can be defined as such.
Zhuge until I found Dread.
Dread until I found Tigris Prime.
Tigris Prime until PoE and then I used Vectis Prime.
Vectis Prime until Rubico Prime was released and now I'm on Rubico Prime.

I've dabbled in and used a few other primary weapons now and again. Ignis Wraith, of course, when I'm carrying through EOS or whatever else so that has a lot of usage on me but really my two main primary weapons are Rubico Prime and Dread. You can profile check me if you want but I'll attach a screenshot below. #humbleflex (not really, but whatever)

Anyway, to me, the fix for bows that would make me want to use them again over sniper rilfes in normal gameplay is if you gave them auto aim + stances.

Bear with me for a moment here. When you press left click there is a circle that opens up. If you release, the arrow will fly swiftly and auto hit anything, even a random target, within that circle, or just randomly hit nothing if nothing is within that reticule. The longer you hold the fire button down the larger the circle gets and damage increases. Some stances will give multishot/multi-target hits to anything within that reticule. Some stance mods will give explosion damage to whatever it hits. Some stances will combine these features. And some stances, for the truly great and the ones who want to maintain that supreme one-shot kill streak, these stances will keep the targeting reticule really small but on a headshot will impart special effects and greatly increased damage. So, you can use stances with the bows to cover hitting multiple enemies, maybe with a stance that automatically causes any target hit to stagger so you can take down multiple enemies running at you with some safety and defend a point. Or use these stances to snipe, or to just do other special status effects. And you don't have to make their damage be stronger than sniper rifles. Just somewhere partway higher would be nice.

This will be a unique gameplay mechanic to bows but it's one way for me to start using bows in normal missions. Right now, why bother using bows when I can just hose down enemies with Ignis Wraith? Why bother using a bow when I can just get instant snapshots with Rubico Prime where I don't have to deal with dropoff and I do more damage. Only bow worth using right now for the game is Lenz and that can be fun but self-damage. And, for such an iconic weapon, I feel that the bows deserve it.

Hopefully, if anything like this happens it happens when Ivara Prime is released and her skills are retweaked slightly to make use of such new bow mechanics... one can only dream. ❤️

Are you listening, DE? 😞

xQdzrGf.jpg

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Totally agree. I like any kinds of buffs. Bowls should work like snipers and as powerful as most top snipers. 

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Honestly, I'm not a fan at all of the suggestions that make bows easier to use—built-in multishot, auto-aim, etc. I like that bows are difficult to use. I just think they should better reward that difficulty. Making bows easier to use just turns them into some other type of weapon. I don't want to change what bows do, I just want them to do it better.

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Posted (edited)

Bows could use some more versatility in addition to having genuine oomph on hit. One thing I pondered would be giving longer charge time bows like say Daikyu (and when I talk buffing bows I want it for Daikyu the most since it is the prettiest bow!) a sort of sonic boom and/or backblast effect to deal heavy damage around the loose and then the arrow on top of the heavy damage of the arrow hit.

Edited by vaarnaaarne

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On 2019-08-11 at 6:07 PM, motorfirebox said:

Anyway. Given how relatively difficult they are to use compared to other weapons, bow damage is kinda uninspiring. The payoff to their exceedingly low rate of fire and slow projectiles isn't really worth it. The biggest advantage is their punchthrough. Both shotguns and snipers beat bows for per-shot damage—and generally speaking both of those have much higher rates of fire, and are mostly hitscan. The one sniper exception, the Lanka, has a projectile speed well over double that of the fastest-projectile bow. (There are projectile shotguns, but projectile speed doesn't really matter much at shotgun range.)

Tl;dr bows are weak and need a buff. Give bows a straight triple to their base damage, and/or give them reverse falloff damage (the longer the shot, the higher the damage), and/or give them a higher body part multiplier.

As a bow-lover myself, I don't remember at any point when bows got any weaker. They're a victim of power creep, like Nyx, rather than an underpowered option in need of a buff, like Vauban

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7 hours ago, motorfirebox said:

Honestly, I'm not a fan at all of the suggestions that make bows easier to use—built-in multishot, auto-aim, etc. I like that bows are difficult to use. I just think they should better reward that difficulty. Making bows easier to use just turns them into some other type of weapon. I don't want to change what bows do, I just want them to do it better.

I agree with this, although the game being largely a horde shooter, it's hard to make them much better without adding new  mechanics.  They could do even more raw damage...but they already do a lot. Even more punch through? Inherent armor piercing?  Higher status chance, and some sort of bow specific reward for going over 100%?  A chance at a guaranteed kill under certain conditions?

One thing that would help would be a game mode  that really  de-emphasized the horde element and rewarded precision better, for example through weak. spot vulnerabilities and friendly fire issues.  Bows would still face daunting competition with snipers and other weapons in a mode like that, but it would narrow the field.

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Posted (edited)

I like some of these ideas. I don't use bows much anymore because they don't really offer an advantage to guns and they are all basically the same. Lenz is a little different because it's more like a high velocity grenade launcher.

I feel like bows are a more playful or skill based weapon, they make you feel cool and give you that connection to traditional Tenno combat that some characters are always talking about. I don't feel like we need the ability to nock up several arrows, because we already have a few automatic crossbow weapons which do high rate of fire.

I think having a unique effect for bows would make each one interesting in its own way:

  • Effects unique to bows.
    • Dread - Bodies and body parts stuck to walls frighten some enemies (they might drop their weapons, cower in fear, or not attack).
    • Daikyu - Fully drawn shots can pin enemies to surfaces even if they don't die.
    • Paris/Prime - Fully drawn bows can charge their elements for increased status chance or crit chance (whichever is higher?).
    • Cernos/Mutalist/Rakta/Prime - Arrows that stick into enemies without killing them proc status multiple times. Strong enemies become status proc dartboards.
       
  • Skill shots that give bonus affinity.
    • Disarm or interrupt enemies by shooting their weapon (doesn't work on infested I guess).
    • Shoot enemy projectiles (rockets, grenades) out of the air.
    • Elemental arrows interact with the environment, e.g electrically charged arrows can disable alarm consoles and disable turrets.
       
  • An alt fire where you just stab the person right in front of you with the arrow. Hilarious bonus points if you can do it with Lenz arrow then run away while the enemy freaks out.
Edited by TheMostFrench

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The bows should have the same combo counter as the snipers.

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11 hours ago, Peter said:

The bows should have the same combo counter as the snipers.

I wouldn't mind this. Though I'd still want their damage buffed directly—ideally, they'd be a viable option for eidolons and the like.

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14 hours ago, TheMostFrench said:
  • Dread - Bodies and body parts stuck to walls frighten some enemies (they might drop their weapons, cower in fear, or not attack).
  •  

That would screw over stealth which is one of the main reasons to use bows over other weapons.  

14 hours ago, TheMostFrench said:
  • Daikyu - Fully drawn shots can pin enemies to surfaces even if they don't die.
  •  

Interesting, but the Daikyu only fires when fully drawn.  You can't fire without fully charging it. 

14 hours ago, TheMostFrench said:

Cernos/Mutalist/Rakta/Prime - Arrows that stick into enemies without killing them proc status multiple times. Strong enemies become status proc dartboards.

I'm not sure what to say about this one. Other than Mutalist and Rakta already have gimmicks/features.  

 

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3 hours ago, DatDarkOne said:

Dread - That would screw over stealth which is one of the main reasons to use bows over other weapons. 

Enemies already become alerted when they see dead friendly bodies killed by bows, Dread would make them scared instead of alert. Anyway, we can make almost any weapon silent and therefore stealth viable with the right mod. Personally, I use dread for the high crit and punch through.

3 hours ago, DatDarkOne said:

Cernos - I'm not sure what to say about this one. Other than Mutalist and Rakta already have gimmicks/features.  

 

I actually think that Mutalist Cernos already does what I'm describing. You shoot an enemy and they dont die, then they run around with a gas status which damages others.

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