Vlada91 Posted August 13, 2019 Share Posted August 13, 2019 I whose struggling before and now im trying not 2 thing about it. Because we will have mature operator and maybe that will change everything. But yea in the end this is just the game,so its always good to have more options for something like this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(NSW)ShinobiEX3 Posted August 13, 2019 Share Posted August 13, 2019 On 2019-08-12 at 4:16 PM, (XB1)Architect Prime said: I see no reason why an ember skin can't be male or why a rihno skin can't be feminine like hyldron. It doesn't have to rock the foundations of the model or anything. It's just a thought I had. I dont see any reason why they should change or add skins that do as such as you say. Your thought does give any reasons why it should 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(XBOX)Architect Prime Posted August 13, 2019 Author Share Posted August 13, 2019 36 minutes ago, (NSW)ShinobiEX3 said: I dont see any reason why they should change or add skins that do as such as you say. Your thought does give any reasons why it should It's just another degree of artistic freedom is all. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(NSW)ShinobiEX3 Posted August 13, 2019 Share Posted August 13, 2019 18 minutes ago, (XB1)Architect Prime said: It's just another degree of artistic freedom is all. Ah I get it. Thanks for clarifying Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sungod1 Posted August 13, 2019 Share Posted August 13, 2019 Because NO, now deal with it. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrBorris Posted August 14, 2019 Share Posted August 14, 2019 7 hours ago, (XB1)Architect Prime said: Whoa slow down there! Warframes already have numerous skins that would break the wild assumptions people like to make about the lore. It's never stated how feminine or masculine warframes, in general, HAVE to look. There's nothing ACTUALLY on that but multi-layered speculations and wild assumptions. I believe that Ballas is referring to the persistence of the personality manifesting through the warframe's behavior (Abilities and such). But even that's not but another way to interrupt it. In the end, none of us can actually know right now since it's so unclear. I know some skins break lore, the Deluxe skins, I explicitly stated that... As many have noted, creating a gender bent skin would require an entirely new model for the Warframe. So, asking for a gender bent skin is basically asking for a Deluxe skin. And while we obviously disagree on this point, I would personally much rather see that effort be put into Deluxe skins. As for lore... contrary to the meme, there are many parts of lore that are not speculation. Mirage's trailer, The Silver Grove, and of course The Sacrifice all paint the same picture. Sure, some parts of the lore are very much up in the air, but the things I brought up are not controversial topics (to those that are up to date on the lore). Imagine if I said that "Lotus being a Sentient is only a speculation". Sure, in theory DE could throw in some major twist... but like... that'd be dumb. Gender bent skins would exist outside the lore unless DE made specific lore changes/retcons for them. However, like I said in my original post, this is fine as they could just exist as non-canon options like the Deluxe skins. But... as I have said before, gender bent skins would dip into the same development resources as Deluxe skins. And if you give me the option between Deluxe skins or gender bent skins I will take even a "bad" Deluxe every day. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GentlePuppet Posted August 14, 2019 Share Posted August 14, 2019 With the right colors you can pretend Nyx is a female Excalibur Spoiler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cubewano Posted August 14, 2019 Share Posted August 14, 2019 6 hours ago, (PS4)Bigboodyjuudy said: Does artistic expression mean nothing to you? Have you ever stopped to think the devs WANTED to keep these characters specific genders? If they want Exaclibur to be a male, Wisp to be a female, etc. That is THEIR choice. And what makes you think this is against their artistic expression? Not sure the head of the art team has made a statement on it, but originally DE (with the same art lead) wanted to pursue multi gender options, they only didn't follow through because they lacked the funding and man power for it given their very rough launch. Nyx was designed to be a female Excalibur originally, she even has an excalibur helm that accidentally leaked through for a period in the past. So if they hear we want them to give it another go, and they're down to give us a male and female wisp and the like, that is equally their choice. But that is a choice for DE, not us, so I'm not sure what this entire counter argument is unless you think you get to speak for them, contrary to the entire concept of your argument. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cubewano Posted August 14, 2019 Share Posted August 14, 2019 1 hour ago, DrBorris said: I know some skins break lore, the Deluxe skins, I explicitly stated that... As many have noted, creating a gender bent skin would require an entirely new model for the Warframe. So, asking for a gender bent skin is basically asking for a Deluxe skin. And while we obviously disagree on this point, I would personally much rather see that effort be put into Deluxe skins. As for lore... contrary to the meme, there are many parts of lore that are not speculation. Mirage's trailer, The Silver Grove, and of course The Sacrifice all paint the same picture. Sure, some parts of the lore are very much up in the air, but the things I brought up are not controversial topics (to those that are up to date on the lore). Imagine if I said that "Lotus being a Sentient is only a speculation". Sure, in theory DE could throw in some major twist... but like... that'd be dumb. Gender bent skins would exist outside the lore unless DE made specific lore changes/retcons for them. However, like I said in my original post, this is fine as they could just exist as non-canon options like the Deluxe skins. But... as I have said before, gender bent skins would dip into the same development resources as Deluxe skins. And if you give me the option between Deluxe skins or gender bent skins I will take even a "bad" Deluxe every day. It's not actually clear when deluxes do and don't break lore, valkyr germesi is apparently lore based, and de likewise seemed to give lore implications to rhino palatine, the coming harrow skin as well apparently has a lore background, and I'm not sure there has ever been a explicit statement of when they break lore so it's really still an iffy area. It's hard to debate what does or does not count as canon to a Warframes visual style when we still don't know how their visual style is chose to begin with. Lore wise we really only know how their core is made, which is you infect people with a strain on the infestation and harvest what comes next, how they wind up the way they look however is far less clear. How much modification did they go through to look how they do? What were they even before the modification? What was the range of modifications that could be done to Warframes? How much of that range did the Orokin explore? You can't really say certain ranges of modifications can't be sourced in lore when we genuinely have no idea how much body modification is allowed within lore or to what extent of visual/thematic diversity was allowed in canon. For all we know all deluxes could be canon if DE liked, I mean the Orokin made a top hat wearing stage magician at one point, so the range can't be too limited. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(XBOX)Architect Prime Posted August 14, 2019 Author Share Posted August 14, 2019 2 hours ago, DrBorris said: I know some skins break lore, the Deluxe skins, I explicitly stated that... As many have noted, creating a gender bent skin would require an entirely new model for the Warframe. So, asking for a gender bent skin is basically asking for a Deluxe skin. And while we obviously disagree on this point, I would personally much rather see that effort be put into Deluxe skins. As for lore... contrary to the meme, there are many parts of lore that are not speculation. Mirage's trailer, The Silver Grove, and of course The Sacrifice all paint the same picture. Sure, some parts of the lore are very much up in the air, but the things I brought up are not controversial topics (to those that are up to date on the lore). Imagine if I said that "Lotus being a Sentient is only a speculation". Sure, in theory DE could throw in some major twist... but like... that'd be dumb. Gender bent skins would exist outside the lore unless DE made specific lore changes/retcons for them. However, like I said in my original post, this is fine as they could just exist as non-canon options like the Deluxe skins. But... as I have said before, gender bent skins would dip into the same development resources as Deluxe skins. And if you give me the option between Deluxe skins or gender bent skins I will take even a "bad" Deluxe every day. Okay. Where is it stated that the warframe always matches the host body's feminine or masculine disposition (not male or female to clarify). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrBorris Posted August 14, 2019 Share Posted August 14, 2019 6 hours ago, (XB1)Architect Prime said: Okay. Where is it stated that the warframe always matches the host body's feminine or masculine disposition (not male or female to clarify). From everything we have seen in the lore every version of a Warframe is based on the same person. This is based on how we create Umbra as well as a bit of deductive reasoning. So it is not as much that every version of a Warframe fits the bodies disposition, and more that they just match the whole person. And when a Warframe does have some transformations in the lore, ala Valkyr or even Revenant to an extent (we never see the "original" Revenant), the transformed versions are still just alterations of the original base. So having a gender bent Warframe would be akin to giving a Warframe transgender surgery then having a new 'line' of that Warframe. Which... I guess? The lore reasons for giving a Warframe such modifications and who would undertake it could be interesting, that's for sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cubewano Posted August 14, 2019 Share Posted August 14, 2019 1 hour ago, DrBorris said: From everything we have seen in the lore every version of a Warframe is based on the same person. This is based on how we create Umbra as well as a bit of deductive reasoning. So it is not as much that every version of a Warframe fits the bodies disposition, and more that they just match the whole person. And when a Warframe does have some transformations in the lore, ala Valkyr or even Revenant to an extent (we never see the "original" Revenant), the transformed versions are still just alterations of the original base. So having a gender bent Warframe would be akin to giving a Warframe transgender surgery then having a new 'line' of that Warframe. Which... I guess? The lore reasons for giving a Warframe such modifications and who would undertake it could be interesting, that's for sure. I mean what was the lore reason for making them look like they do now? I doubt the infestation alone gave us a stage magician frame, or a loneranger, or the rather targeted proportions some frames have for aesthetic purposes alone. How I figure, in all likelihood from the moment a person is put through the infestation process for harvesting they likely loose near all human characteristics about them, they become just walking glob monsters with no real discernible gender traits like well...all other infested, then the orokin take em in, shave em down, give them a human form and visual design that they find appealing, fit em with what is effectively a second coat of flesh/skin, and that's how we get the visual aspects of frames we have today. Needless to say that is likely an extreme level of cosmetic surgery going on to shift them from a infested creature to what we have today as Warframes visually, certainly leagues above just making someone go from feminine to masculine or masculine to feminine, so in that frame of reference I'm not sure there needs to be much reason beyond whimsy (which is the bulk of their design process to begin with given some of our frames) as the cosmetic side of it is already a non-argument given the likely efforts it takes to make a frame look in anyway how they do to begin with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrBorris Posted August 14, 2019 Share Posted August 14, 2019 2 hours ago, Cubewano said: I mean what was the lore reason for making them look like they do now? I doubt the infestation alone gave us a stage magician frame, or a loneranger, or the rather targeted proportions some frames have for aesthetic purposes alone. How I figure, in all likelihood from the moment a person is put through the infestation process for harvesting they likely loose near all human characteristics about them, they become just walking glob monsters with no real discernible gender traits like well...all other infested, then the orokin take em in, shave em down, give them a human form and visual design that they find appealing, fit em with what is effectively a second coat of flesh/skin, and that's how we get the visual aspects of frames we have today. Needless to say that is likely an extreme level of cosmetic surgery going on to shift them from a infested creature to what we have today as Warframes visually, certainly leagues above just making someone go from feminine to masculine or masculine to feminine, so in that frame of reference I'm not sure there needs to be much reason beyond whimsy (which is the bulk of their design process to begin with given some of our frames) as the cosmetic side of it is already a non-argument given the likely efforts it takes to make a frame look in anyway how they do to begin with. Um... have you played the Sacrifice? While we can assume most Warframes did not get Ballas's special treatment with the "single burning memory", the basic process is the same. I say the following with 95% confidence: Every type of Warframe (Mirage, Loki, Excalibur, etcetera) has a single "original" version. This original was a human who was infected by the infestation, specifically the Helminth strain, and transformed. We do know via Mirage's prime trailer and The Silver Grove that each Warframe was "designed" to some degree, Saryn was designed to "fight poison with poison", however the methods used to do this are still unknown. Warframes are not just blobs of technocyte, they were humans, and many signs point to the Warframes retaining parts of their former human self. "The mere vapors of your life, shimmering still" -Mirage Prime trailer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cubewano Posted August 14, 2019 Share Posted August 14, 2019 18 minutes ago, DrBorris said: Um... have you played the Sacrifice? While we can assume most Warframes did not get Ballas's special treatment with the "single burning memory", the basic process is the same. I say the following with 95% confidence: Every type of Warframe (Mirage, Loki, Excalibur, etcetera) has a single "original" version. This original was a human who was infected by the infestation, specifically the Helminth strain, and transformed. We do know via Mirage's prime trailer and The Silver Grove that each Warframe was "designed" to some degree, Saryn was designed to "fight poison with poison", however the methods used to do this are still unknown. Warframes are not just blobs of technocyte, they were humans, and many signs point to the Warframes retaining parts of their former human self. "The mere vapors of your life, shimmering still" -Mirage Prime trailer. I did, hence my information, which I'm feeling you didn't fully absorb given some of this response. I'm aware they started human, I outright acknowledge that as a stage of the progression, ya grab a person, ya infest em, ya harvest, my point was we don't know what that process looks like, but the odds of the byproduct of that method being still human is an extreme stretch of the imagination to hold onto. We've seen what the infestation does to its hosts, we know how twisted Warframes are at their end stage, realistically there is close to no chance that the person at the start came out the end looking anything remotely as what they were going in. What we got at the end took extensive modification, physically, to make it what we have now, and that's all we need for either side of this argument to fit canon. There doesn't need to be some specialized lore designed for gender variants, the entire field of physical manipulation and modification is already more than present as a lore element for frames from the get go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(XBOX)Architect Prime Posted August 14, 2019 Author Share Posted August 14, 2019 27 minutes ago, DrBorris said: Um... have you played the Sacrifice? While we can assume most Warframes did not get Ballas's special treatment with the "single burning memory", the basic process is the same. I say the following with 95% confidence: Every type of Warframe (Mirage, Loki, Excalibur, etcetera) has a single "original" version. This original was a human who was infected by the infestation, specifically the Helminth strain, and transformed. We do know via Mirage's prime trailer and The Silver Grove that each Warframe was "designed" to some degree, Saryn was designed to "fight poison with poison", however the methods used to do this are still unknown. Warframes are not just blobs of technocyte, they were humans, and many signs point to the Warframes retaining parts of their former human self. "The mere vapors of your life, shimmering still" -Mirage Prime trailer. Let's just agree to disagree on this one. It's not a big deal in my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Im_a_Turtle Posted August 15, 2019 Share Posted August 15, 2019 On 2019-08-13 at 1:01 AM, Vesiga said: We all know that people would just make all the female frames have bigger assets if they were to make new models. Abuse of system would happen instantly B-but larger assets would imply higher armor+health rating wouldn't it? Like the equivalent to extra ballistic breast plating! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doom_Bunny Posted August 15, 2019 Share Posted August 15, 2019 8 hours ago, Cubewano said: I did, hence my information, which I'm feeling you didn't fully absorb given some of this response. I'm aware they started human, I outright acknowledge that as a stage of the progression, ya grab a person, ya infest em, ya harvest, my point was we don't know what that process looks like, but the odds of the byproduct of that method being still human is an extreme stretch of the imagination to hold onto. We've seen what the infestation does to its hosts, we know how twisted Warframes are at their end stage, realistically there is close to no chance that the person at the start came out the end looking anything remotely as what they were going in. What we got at the end took extensive modification, physically, to make it what we have now, and that's all we need for either side of this argument to fit canon. There doesn't need to be some specialized lore designed for gender variants, the entire field of physical manipulation and modification is already more than present as a lore element for frames from the get go. The problem with that is our latest enemies the zealot heralds and proselytizers. From the transmission they infect them selves with spores by rushing into derelicts, yet they still maintain a human shape. If this new group can control the virus to still maintain a human shape imagine what an advanced; cloning, mass-producing, void manipulating, sentient making, gold loving civilization could of done with it. It's not that far of a stretch to imagine that a scientist at the top of this civilization could manipulate the virus into maintaining a human shape for the purpose of creating warriors to fight the sentients. Then it's just a matter of slapping your now genocidal mutant into a suit for children to control. Switching gender around in that process would be unnecessary and very unlike the Orokin who desire perfection in their image, and needed warriors as fast as possible. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cubewano Posted August 15, 2019 Share Posted August 15, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, Postal_pat said: The problem with that is our latest enemies the zealot heralds and proselytizers. From the transmission they infect them selves with spores by rushing into derelicts, yet they still maintain a human shape. If this new group can control the virus to still maintain a human shape imagine what an advanced; cloning, mass-producing, void manipulating, sentient making, gold loving civilization could of done with it. It's not that far of a stretch to imagine that a scientist at the top of this civilization could manipulate the virus into maintaining a human shape for the purpose of creating warriors to fight the sentients. Then it's just a matter of slapping your now genocidal mutant into a suit for children to control. Switching gender around in that process would be unnecessary and very unlike the Orokin who desire perfection in their image, and needed warriors as fast as possible. We don't really know enough about the ongoing Nightwave series to really be capable of drawing anything conclusive from it, it appears like Arlo may have a very unique strain of infestation that differs from the Orokin's going by the fact his compatriots remain loyal and subservient to him, we also don't know if the infestation process of his disciples has gone full circle yet (we know at some point we'll encounter an entirely new infested unit that looks far less humanoid so we may see less humanoid just yet), until it ends any conclusions are premature. It's also left to be said that even if that was their end product, which I find unlikely given what was shared in Rhino Primes codex entry (it both acknowledges they physically alter them and suggests they look very beastly even after the shaping process), how much do they look like Warframes after it all? It's more than just a matter of maintaing a humanoid shape, but how specific that shape is, because Warframes have very specific shapes. If a great deal of surgical alteration is still standard for their creation, then this remains a non-argument, because one way or the other they are physically reshaping their bodies. And their entire visual design is unnecessary, they didn't need to trim their forms, give them smooth colorful skin, didn't need to theme them, or plaster them in gold finishes, that was all excessive and vanity driven because that's what the Orokin are, excessive and vanity driven people. A person didn't naturally turn into a stage magician after being met with the infestation, or a cowboy, or a pirate, or any of the very distinct visual themes they wind up with. They heavily altered these frames after their host transformed, just so they could look pretty, and thematic, and more or less entertaining, which is why I don't think a unique lore explanation is necessary, all it ever needs is a whim to happen and that's the entire creative process behind their looks to begin with, whimsy. As for perfection, I'm unclear what exactly you are trying to argue in that regard for this kind of visual change. I don't think they'd find either sides be inherently imperfect. Edited August 15, 2019 by Cubewano 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(XBOX)Architect Prime Posted August 15, 2019 Author Share Posted August 15, 2019 1 hour ago, Postal_pat said: The problem with that is our latest enemies the zealot heralds and proselytizers. From the transmission they infect them selves with spores by rushing into derelicts, yet they still maintain a human shape. If this new group can control the virus to still maintain a human shape imagine what an advanced; cloning, mass-producing, void manipulating, sentient making, gold loving civilization could of done with it. It's not that far of a stretch to imagine that a scientist at the top of this civilization could manipulate the virus into maintaining a human shape for the purpose of creating warriors to fight the sentients. Then it's just a matter of slapping your now genocidal mutant into a suit for children to control. Switching gender around in that process would be unnecessary and very unlike the Orokin who desire perfection in their image, and needed warriors as fast as possible. Finally a well baked argument against. I hear ya now my guy! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)ricram04 Posted August 15, 2019 Share Posted August 15, 2019 We don't want no male wisp.....nah nah naaaah Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(XBOX)Architect Prime Posted August 15, 2019 Author Share Posted August 15, 2019 48 minutes ago, (PS4)ricram04 said: We don't want no male wisp.....nah nah naaaah Uh, how about feminine Nidus? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vlada91 Posted August 15, 2019 Share Posted August 15, 2019 Just all imagine,when DE announce new frame and then they saying here how new frame looks like and here is how is in different gender type. Imagine that we have that option in all frames. And that is jusy something normal and not something complicated, like you all things and more options in games like this are always good to have all that options for customisation... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(XBOX)ShadowBlood89 Posted August 16, 2019 Share Posted August 16, 2019 On 2019-08-12 at 3:16 PM, (XB1)Architect Prime said: I see no reason why an ember skin can't be male or why a rihno skin can't be feminine like hyldron. It doesn't have to rock the foundations of the model or anything. It's just a thought I had. nyx an excal were to be the same frame but just gender diffences but DE changed there mind an seperated frames into male an female. guess they wanted to save on time as imagine the 40 normal frames changed into 80 frames Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vlada91 Posted August 16, 2019 Share Posted August 16, 2019 2 hours ago, (XB1)ShadowBlood89 said: nyx an excal were to be the same frame but just gender diffences but DE changed there mind an seperated frames into male an female. guess they wanted to save on time as imagine the 40 normal frames changed into 80 frames Yea we know all that and it whose 6 years ago,when we got just 10frames and 2 maps...but look warframe now... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(XBOX)Architect Prime Posted August 17, 2019 Author Share Posted August 17, 2019 15 hours ago, (XB1)ShadowBlood89 said: nyx an excal were to be the same frame but just gender diffences but DE changed there mind an seperated frames into male an female. guess they wanted to save on time as imagine the 40 normal frames changed into 80 frames You've taken it in the worst way possible lmao Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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