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LupoDWolf

Can we have a huge balance update before new war?

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On 2019-08-18 at 6:31 AM, Birdframe_Prime said:

I'm not talking about the OP, I'm talking about your statement; where you tried to use DE's words about a simple balance pass to say 'yeah, doom, gloom, Amesha nerf'.

That's not what they said, stop twisting their words.

Please read posts. I said

And I said it for that specific reason.

Regular melee can, and often does with the right frame, out-strip ability melee. However, I do want to point out that Volt still doesn't have instant access to invincibility, self healing and a mobile damage turret that can be modded as a Rhino Stomp. Even Wukong's 2 is faster than Volt's 2 and more versatile because of it's omni-directionality and not triggering any traps. So you can stick your 'Volt's a better melee frame' up your jumper, because no, he's a better generalist and has a good single ability to boost melee.

So I'm not using words to mean things they don't mean, you're not reading words and pretending you have a counter-point because of it.

Balance passes are actually, from the history of this game, almost always buffs. If you want me to address larger aspects of the game than just the most recent, then let's look at Parkour 2.0 versus Parkour 1.0. Let's take a look at Damage 2.0 versus 1.0, let's look at Focus 2.5 versus Focus 1.0, every time they've actually gone through a balance pass on the larger game systems, they've made them better.

They did a balance pass in the winter of 2017-18 on a truck-load of Primary and Secondary weapons and buffed 99% of what they touched in some way, including making all Bows have a max of a 1 second charge time (gone is the Daikyu's mandatory 3 seconds per shot) and disconnecting Beam weapons from the 'per second' limitation and making everything they did based on Fire Rate instead, one of the greatest buffs to a section of the weapon system since Melee 2.0 introduced actual scaling to that system.

And so you can keep trying to spread negativity with this, and I'm just going to hear 'balance pass' and see the game getting better.

And to loop this back around, the Amesha may even be the one Archwing that DE doesn't even touch, and the only thing that happens to it is it gets Blink on its dodge for free. A balance pass generically in Warframe means buffs. You took 'balance pass' to be 'Amesha nerf' and that's not what they said.

You're the one that's trying to use words to mean what they don't mean.

nope, you're throwing a lot of words out there though...

so lets address something... volt's melee ability is just straight better.  he has an ability that flat affects melee in the description... i'd call that a melee ability.  If you're only talking about exalted weapons and ability weapons that fit into the melee bracket, sure wukong's is best, but that's irrelevant when literally all of those weapons are garbage compared to standard melee that costs no energy...  and frankly when it comes to exalteds mesa doesn't have melee but hers is infinitely better... why you'd get literally that specific is beyond me because of how niche it is... moving on... volt doesn't need defy, or mist, or any of the other abilities.  really wukong's kit has only 2 places:  1) newbies that are undergeared 2) people that want to take random frames to endless.  He's good for newbies because he can't die, but that becomes irrelevant at mid game when you can mod every frame to be functionally immortal.  as far as endless, he's flat out not the best at it by a long shot, but he works there, if that's your thing... which is literally just for S&G's because you're actually actively working against your own rewards by doing it.

 

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Balance is not possible in the current Damage system and it's gotten progressively worse over time.

We need new foundation mechanics for the game. Scaling, Damage types, Armor, Status effects, Enemy Damage, Buff / Debuff interactions; Everything.

It's a lot of work, esp with the mess of content and janky enemy design piled on top. DE backed out twice for good reason. Instead we got immunity.

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8 hours ago, Klokwerkaos said:

i'll entertain the possibility that you have any clue what you're talking about.

And I’ve stopped entertaining the possibility that you actually want to talk about balance because you’ve obviously tried to deflect this whole conversation onto Wukong rather than address it.

I’ve pointed out that ‘balance pass’ does not mean ‘nerf’ in the scheme of this game specifically because of your attempt to say it means the Amesha is getting nerfed. And because you lost that one you think nobody will notice if you try and change the topic.

Too bad, we all see you, better luck next time.

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13 minutes ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

And I’ve stopped entertaining the possibility that you actually want to talk about balance because you’ve obviously tried to deflect this whole conversation onto Wukong rather than address it.

I’ve pointed out that ‘balance pass’ does not mean ‘nerf’ in the scheme of this game specifically because of your attempt to say it means the Amesha is getting nerfed. And because you lost that one you think nobody will notice if you try and change the topic.

Too bad, we all see you, better luck next time.

i see, because you don't agree with a point made, that means you win the debate... very good then.  hence why I stopped bothering...  have a good one!

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Just now, Klokwerkaos said:

i see, because you don't agree with a point made

I countered your point with logical argument, you tried to change the topic so that you wouldn’t have to debate the point, that means I win.

That’s how debates work, if you can’t defend your point, you lose.

Have fun trying to find some actual logic to stand on next time.

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21 minutes ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

I countered your point with logical argument, you tried to change the topic so that you wouldn’t have to debate the point, that means I win.

That’s how debates work, if you can’t defend your point, you lose.

Have fun trying to find some actual logic to stand on next time.

that"s not what happened... your argument is "i disagree" not substantial.  you should study how debate and rhetoric work.

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2 minutes ago, Klokwerkaos said:

that"s not what happened... your argument is "i disagree" not substantial.  you should study how debate and rhetoric work.

I backed up every point with examples of how balance passes are not nerfs and your unsubstantiated claim of ‘the Amesha is getting nerfed’ holds no weight.

Your response? ‘Oh, I disagree with your point about Wukong and will mis-quote you to introduce a new argument about him and Volt’.

Nice. Well done. I’ll be sure to salute you as you stick your head further into the sandy bank of denial.

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7 minutes ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

I backed up every point with examples of how balance passes are not nerfs and your unsubstantiated claim of ‘the Amesha is getting nerfed’ holds no weight.

Your response? ‘Oh, I disagree with your point about Wukong and will mis-quote you to introduce a new argument about him and Volt’.

Nice. Well done. I’ll be sure to salute you as you stick your head further into the sandy bank of denial.

first, if i"m going to continue to respond to you, the next response needs to have the attitude stripped out, I don't care for it.

next, saying reworks don't mean nerfs is accurate.  no duh.  often times balance passes mean a collection  of nerfs and buffs as needed.

however, when we look at archwing, if we consider that they are already nerfing the blink and mutlilating it to a "dodge" which has unsettling implications... and the archwings are far from balanced, mainly the amesha being invincible and the odonata and the other one being trash tier, which is more egregious than the blink ability to arch/railjack (even though everyone uses itzal because blink utility is more valuable in open world), then it stands to reason that is up on the chopping block.  the fact that you're challenging this as it if I'm stating it's fact, is ridiculous, because of course it's speculation.  ThIs is why I didn't bother responding, because your entire premise is ridiculous.  Stating speculation as fact is something an idiot does, and by insinuating that is what i was doing, you're insulting my intellect, which  is why I didn't bother to continue with you, not because my feelings are hurt, but because  your style of communication and  imagination  are very limited in this  conversation as far as I'm concerned, and aren't worth taking the time to  explain it to you, but since you're persistant,  and it's annoying, there you go, I explained to you why your interpretation of what  i was saying is ludicrous.

Now if you're  quite finished, please go on your  merry way and leave my name out of your posts,  please and  thanks.

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28 minutes ago, Klokwerkaos said:

the fact that you're challenging this as it if I'm stating it's fact, is ridiculous, because of course it's speculation.

You made definitive statements asserting it, my original comment on the matter was questioning your proof on the veracity of that statement.

You not only failed to give it, you also failed to say, at any time that it was pure speculation or admit that you were basing it off pure assumption. Instead you defended the point as if it was true and then, when I provide clear argument to the effect of saying your point was groundless and had nothing to back it up, even as speculation, you gave me attitude and even tried to divert the topic onto a side point I made as part of my examples.

When the entire point was to call out a baseless claim as such, your responses only tried to either double down or to deflect completely.

If at any point you had admitted that all you had was a vague assumption, that your earlier claim was all nothing but you projecting a negative outcome instead of a positive one, then this whole conversation would have moved past that.

Sadly, you aren’t nearly the foresighted person you claim to be, because all of your speculation makes huge leaps in assumption and even as a projected route forward is unlikely from another person’s point of view.

One of us here has been objective in this, and it hasn’t been you.

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21 minutes ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

You made definitive statements asserting it, my original comment on the matter was questioning your proof on the veracity of that statement.

You not only failed to give it, you also failed to say, at any time that it was pure speculation or admit that you were basing it off pure assumption. Instead you defended the point as if it was true and then, when I provide clear argument to the effect of saying your point was groundless and had nothing to back it up, even as speculation, you gave me attitude and even tried to divert the topic onto a side point I made as part of my examples.

When the entire point was to call out a baseless claim as such, your responses only tried to either double down or to deflect completely.

If at any point you had admitted that all you had was a vague assumption, that your earlier claim was all nothing but you projecting a negative outcome instead of a positive one, then this whole conversation would have moved past that.

Sadly, you aren’t nearly the foresighted person you claim to be, because all of your speculation makes huge leaps in assumption and even as a projected route forward is unlikely from another person’s point of view.

One of us here has been objective in this, and it hasn’t been you.

We're done here.  please stop pinging my name.  we clearly cannot communicate effectively with one another.  Mainly because you can't interpret the exact things I'm saying with clarity, and at this point I'm left wondering how much of this is on purpose just to troll me.  I have no interest in trying to convince  you of anything, you believe whatever you want, I don't care.  Your opinion is absolutely meaningless to me.  Please stop pinging me with this nonsense and learn to read more carefully in the future if you want to converse with me.

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1 hour ago, Klokwerkaos said:

Please stop pinging me

Until the next time you make another wildly assumptive and baseless statement then.

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34 minutes ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Until the next time you make another wildly assumptive and baseless statement then.

OK.  I asked you nicely to stop.  Now I'm clearly explaining that if you do it again, since there is no ignore function for quotes on the forum, I'm considering further nonsense from you harassment and bringing it to the moderators and they can deal with you.

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44 minutes ago, Klokwerkaos said:

since there is no ignore function

Oh, that at least I can help you with, on your Account settings there’s an actual section headed ‘Ignored Users’. You do have to type it in much like the @ system in regular comments, but it exists.

As for asking me to stop, not many people would have taken that as ‘nicely’. Aggressive statements about my opinions being meaningless (they were logic, not opinions) doesn’t get a pass just because you tack on a ‘please’ at the end. The magic word only works when you don’t insult a person in the sentences before it.

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Le 13/08/2019 à 01:03, Chewarette a dit :

Honestly the game is in a good spot right now balance-wise

hahahaha!

hahaha!

haha!

ha...

 

 

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1 hour ago, Awazx said:

hahahaha!

hahaha!

haha!

ha...

 

 

I guess that's funny for someone who thinks the game can and should be balanced around regular Starchart levels.

The fact Saryn, Mesa, Oberon, Hildryn, Inaros, Octavia, Banshee, Nova, Trinity, Chroma, Ash, Baruuk, Ember (if well modded, ok), Equinox, Excalibur, Frost, Gara, Garuda, Harrow, Ivara, Khora, Loki, Nekros, Nezha, Nidus, Revenant, Rhino, Valkyr, Volt, Wisp and Wukong are all useful in challenging content while bringing different tools to the squad is the proof this game is well balanced.

I can guess that's a pity for Vauban or Mirage mains but hey.

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On 2019-08-13 at 1:28 PM, Teridax68 said:

Personally, I think that if there needs to be a progression, it should be one of complexity: lower-MR weapons should be simpler and familiar, and as the player progresses the game should introduce them to weapons with unique mechanics, alt-fires, conditional bonuses, and so on. In all cases, our weapons should be equally powerful, with more difficult weapons obviously offering proportionately higher rewards when used well. For the majority of currently underpowered weapons, this should mean raising their crit and/or status chance so that they can be modded more fully, or alternatively raising their raw damage to a point where pure +damage builds would still have them on par with crit or status weapons.

I'm of the opinion that MR progression of weapons needs to not be a thing. Yes, Warframe has a large number of weapons, but that's no excuse for making a large chunk of them poinless to use. Especially when a lot of them are actually pretty cool in terms of design and the experience of shooting them. If you want to enforce some kind of weapon progression from weak to powerful (and have a blind spot for modding), then use generic weapons vs. their Vandal/Wraith/Prisma/Prime variants. So the Sicarus is terrible, but the Sicarus Prime is pretty decent. I can live with that sort of design, especially if you let me use the Sicarus skin on the Sicarus Prime (pretty please?) if I so choose.

Oh, and Mk.1 weapons, too. If you MUST push players from weaker to stronger weapons, add more Mk.1 versions. In fact, why don't you make Mk.1 weapons not take up a weapon slot and just GIVE new players all of the Mk.1 weapons right out the gate? One of the big drawbacks to the New Player Experience is that players start with one gun, one pistol and one Warframe, and chances are not the ones they actually like. Then they have to grind and grind before they can get any amount of variety. I ended up having to pay money to unlock at least a few weapons I didn't hate. Give players all of the terrible Mk.1 weapons, maybe give them all three starter Warframes with some kind of handicap that they have to unlock the fix for and then balance all weapons past that point equally.

 

On 2019-08-13 at 10:42 AM, BlachWolf said:

While I do agree that some mods need ballancing, armor needs to be fixed first and then enemy need to be buffed with ne mechanics so they dont get stomped by the player (basically more difficulty based on mechanics instead of ehp). If that does happen, I really dont see the need to give players even more power through upgraded mods.

Enemies don't need to be buffed. Player damage stacking mechanics need a ground-up redesign. While we're at it, weapon modding in general can use a redesign, preferably one which doesn't allow players to mod for over 200 times their base weapon damage. Warframe's "balance" isn't the problem. Rather the massive difference in strength between basic and min/maxed builds is where the issue lies. No such difficulty setting exists that's going to offer a blip on the radar of a veteran, which isn't going to be completely inaccessible for 95% of the rest of the playerbase. You want "balance," you need to start from a smaller opportunity space.

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12 minutes ago, Steel_Rook said:

Enemies don't need to be buffed.

I would disagree with this. But mostly because I can see where the balance point of this particular matter lies. Grineer are damage sponges because they're dumb as rocks. Corpus have nullifiers and combas and mines that scale like flame-throwers that you have to actually pay attention to at later levels... because they're dumb as rocks. The infested have massive disruption and toxic auras, gas clouds and now even have projectiles in case you stand on a box, plus damage reduction and healing auras... because they're dumb as rocks.

Did you ever play the original Halo game? Because if I remember correctly, CE had better enemy AI than Warframe.

We could stop having to deal with damage sponge enemies if we gave their AI a buff overall. So, picture a case where grineer didn't just group up in corridors, but immediately went for bulkheads, that would jump behind Shields or Blunts if you were casting AoE attacks, started shooting while you reloaded, or piled on pressure when your shields went down. Corpus that would send their charging Moas to confront you while the fleshy ones clustered under a Nullifier bubble only to flee in terror if you popped that bubble, diving for cover as you came by. Imagine Infested that flanked you by climbing walls and pathing around choke-points, could cling to ceilings to ambush you, and would coordinate a Tar Mutalist Moa with a bunch of exploding Leapers to try and pin you down then detonate on you.

Now, some of that sounds horrifying, some of that sounds easy, and some of that sounds like it wouldn't even make a difference when somebody rofl-copters through the map with a Zaw.

But that could scale up. And Armour wouldn't need to scale as much. Because rather than a Bombard standing there and taking shuffling slowly, rather than a Heavy Gunner charging up and starting to fire as they drew a bead, imagine trying to actively locate and fire on a Bombard and Gunner that have managed to take up position at corners of the room behind cover, standing up long enough to fire, or edging out only when they're revved up, meanwhile the Lancers are forming actual fire teams and the Butchers are strafing and dodging around you to attack from all angles, meanwhile there's a Scorch laying down pre-emptive fire from the middle and a Sniper lining up shots from the back edge protected by a Shield that the Lancer behind it doesn't move until you aren't aiming at him so that he can fire while your attention is diverted.

That would be a real challenge to deal with at level 150, even if the basic armour values of the enemy were cut down by 50% so that they died to our weapons twice as fast as they normally would.

If the enemy was smart enough to cover, fall back, make saving throws when we try to murder them, that would be an actual challenge. Difficulty without making them damage sponges.

And more specifically, if that kind of AI can be run on the old original Xbox, then surely it can be incorporated into a game that's now 17 years past that point technologically speaking.

I mean, I can't be the only one that played through The Sacrifice and when I heard Ordis say 'Are they... coordinating an ambush?!' was disappointed to find that, no, it was just the game spawning more of them in the general location of the exit and hoping that counted.

Basically speaking, if the enemies were able to both be aware of what Warframes are and can do, as well as to react to what they're doing, then this game would be ten times more engaging than it is right now, and we could even nerf the enemy damage-sponge nature because of it.

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3 minutes ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Did you ever play the original Halo game? Because if I remember correctly, CE had better enemy AI than Warframe.

I did. I also played FEAR and Half-Life. While I found the AI in all of these games competent, the reason their AI appears smarter than your average bear is because it uses a lot of smoke-and-mirrors cheats to appear smarter than it is, and because the enemies have pretty high stats. Here's a good video on the subject. Long story short, no - good AI doesn't preclude the need for proper balance. Indeed, "good AI" isn't necessarily the same as "smart AI." Warframe's AI is good enough for what the game is, which is a horde where the primary objective of an enemy is to be active, to find the player quickly and to engage the player as much as possible. Anything beyond that is not just unnecessary but often disruptive to the flow of the game.

Enemies don't need to be buffed because enemies are not the source of Warframe's balance problems. If anything, they're a symptom there of. Warframe's balance problems stem almost entirely of damage scaling for player. The game is fairly well-balanced in the early game, where enemies are low level and players are using weapons predominantly around their base stats. It's only once players start boosting weapon damage to several hundred times and one-shotting everything that the system ends up breaking down. Enemy resistance needs to sit at 95% or higher for said enemies to even last long enough for their AI to matter, and often times even that's not enough. To combat this, the impact of enemies shooting at you - their damage - has to be boosted to a point where they can have SOME impact before you inevitably one-shot them. AI is irrelevant here. You could put a real living human being at the controls of the average Lancer and they wouldn't make a lick of difference when they die in one hit the moment they have line of sight.

 

9 minutes ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Basically speaking, if the enemies were able to both be aware of what Warframes are and can do, as well as to react to what they're doing, then this game would be ten times more engaging than it is right now, and we could even nerf the enemy damage-sponge nature because of it.

Long story short, it wouldn't. I spent four years listening to this myth - and it is a myth - in the Payday 2 forums. People constantly talked about how dumb the AI was, how much better it could be, even creating mods supposedly making the AI smarter. And yet if you dug under the hood, you'd discover that the AI was a LOT smarter than players gave it credit for. It reacted to player actions, it would suppress and disengage if you caught it reloading or isolated, it would try to avoid firefights and flank players and all manner of other smart tactics which completely did not matter in actual gameplay to the point where players didn't notice them. And on the other side you had mods which claimed to have given the AI extra tactics by enabling code which did nothing, and players bought that. They were told the AI was smarter, and so they perceived it as smarter... Even though it wasn't. AI intelligence is a myth, because the programming needed to make AI appear smart and fun to fight is wholly different from the programming needed to make AI actually, genuinely smart.

And again - none of that matters when we're one-shotting everything. There's no amount of intelligence you can give the AI that's going to make it outsmart red criticals. It's like the Heavy said. "They think they can outsmart me. Maybe. But can they outsmart bullet?" No, they can't. Which is why balance needs to improve before AI is going to matter.

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3 minutes ago, Steel_Rook said:

I'm of the opinion that MR progression of weapons needs to not be a thing. Yes, Warframe has a large number of weapons, but that's no excuse for making a large chunk of them poinless to use. Especially when a lot of them are actually pretty cool in terms of design and the experience of shooting them. If you want to enforce some kind of weapon progression from weak to powerful (and have a blind spot for modding), then use generic weapons vs. their Vandal/Wraith/Prisma/Prime variants. So the Sicarus is terrible, but the Sicarus Prime is pretty decent. I can live with that sort of design, especially if you let me use the Sicarus skin on the Sicarus Prime (pretty please?) if I so choose.

Oh, I agree, power progression shouldn't be a thing. However, progression need not be defined by increases in power, is my point, and I think there is sense in having a progression of complexity: it makes little sense to throw new players into the deep end and have them play with weapons that require more intimate knowledge of the game and its systems (e.g. weapons like the Dual Toxocyst or Zarr), and at that point what would benefit them the most would be straightforward, yet durably useful weapons to let them familiarize themselves with the game. After that, introducing them to new and more interesting mechanics with higher MR levels, without necessarily tacking on any additional power, would offer more diverse and potentially more interesting options, whose more complex or difficult mechanics could inherently reinforce that feeling of mastery.

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Reading my own post back in your quote - I think I phrased that poorly. I'm fine with weapons themselves being gated by progression. I just don't want higher-MR weapons to be "better" by design. I absolutely agree with your take on reserving more complex, weirder weapons for higher MR where players can be more readily expected to know how to handle that. I'm actually also fine with gating specialist weapons, as well. By this I mean weapons which are potentially more powerful, but also more limited. Seni-auto sniper rifles would be an example of a "specialist" weapon, in that they're exceedingly powerful, but also pretty hard to use if you don't have very good aim. Bows are actually in a similar vein, though the game can use a few more rapid-firing bows, as well.

Progression is fine, but I'd like for all weapons to be balanced around the same general level of performance, is what I was getting at. And if we DO want to have some weapons which are objectively bad and only to be used by newer players, then Mk.1 weapons are a good fit.

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