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Are These The Main Factors Of Meta-Gaming(Creating Of Ideal Weapons) In Warframe?


Niryco
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Armor 2.0 works to solve this to an extent, but players are already crafting their weapon loadout hypothesis for the best weapon loadout.

 

Having this passion to have the best build happens in every game admittedly, the biggest most obscene number possible to outwit dumb foes by strength is just a desperate plea for balance which can never be attained.

 

I decided to point out some factors that would lead to this "meta gaming"

 

1) Damage and health - This mechanic is probably the only one to never ever become touched outside its buff and tweaking. Armor mechanics are said to add a layer to damage, but overall it just means it round down the most effective damage to a smaller group when previously the pool was larger.

 

Damage needs to be touched on, not the values but the way it is dealt and what happens when it is dealt. The compliment to this is also the health system which can also be tweaked to influence how damage functions, but this 2 are the most paramount mechanics that need changing for non-ideal weapons to exist.

 

2) Numbers - Is there any other way to replace them? RNG - no please don't. Overall numbers seem like the only thing within the game (any game) that can't be changed that influences ideal weapons creation. The only way to change numbers is their value and well it is the only effective method to control them.

 

3) Elemental resistance and armor - Although mentioned earlier that it singles out weapons, the fact is having multiple resistances help single out multiple weapons as well as having pros and cons to armor types which can be further expand. However the fact weapons can equip all sorts of elements destroys this whole section before it even got started. Furthermore elemental resistance is heavily biased against electrical damage where fire and ice as well as poison is the only worthwhile ones further singling out more weapons.

 

The overall system needs to be changed, how that is something like balancing each damage type to have no bias, followed by having select few elements on one gun, not all and etc. If so this would increase the number of non-ideal weapons. In addition elemental effects are also heavily biased and needs tweaking.

 

4) Fixed stats - This is an odd ball to state. Fixed stats which is actually good as it differentiates weapons for the better, isn't so in warframes context. In other games we can see this working well, providing a set of weapons which are all useful under the context of the game(e.g TF2, COD4, etc). However within this game fixed stats means some weapons are going to lose out if they don't have the desired stats.

 

This creates a problem where the solution intends to solve which is kind of ironic. The games all see a limited set of weapons which warframe doesn't which is the probably difference and fixed stats address this by having a set of characteristic stat values become a "distinguished" weapon. If the other weapons follow the trend of this value, it would be no different and can be considered a skin and only the highest stat of the standing out characteristic weapon is desired, rounding down alot of the weapons when only few fixed stats are desired. For instances Soma and Grakata.

 

5) Enemy stats are all known This is a large factor to meta gaming. Knowning your enemies stats and weaknesses and having it being posted online is well the killer of all bosses as it gears players to fight bosses, like receiving tuition to solve just one maths question.

 

Indeed if there was no transparency either it would cause a problem as some players would be quick to conspire with unneeded fuel to fire. Warframe avoids this to an extent but also falls prey to such a circumstance. The fact enemies can be put down so easily most of the time, relegates the point of enemy stats to nil. Base enemy stats are pretty much meaningless since they are all equally as weak and given this well knowing their stats won't change much of this.

 

However the issue arises when we have special boss fights who have glaring weaknesses. Take for example how i used to farm phorid where he has a 3 times weakness to melee weapons. Given how melee was during update 8 and how weak bullets are since one couldn't forma their weapon, well having him get stuck between 2 boxes and constantly charged melee him to death was the way to go. Degrading the boss fight to save time was the agenda for me, however this creates the problem that boss fights are always like this.

 

It is hard to come up with a win-win solution for this and i have to admit i am stumped on this factor.

 

Conclusion

So with all this factors stated, how much of it do you think is changeable. The all of them are equally important but overall it boils down to damage and health as the main motive. If this system can be changed, the priority of killing an enemy would change and overall how theorycrafting would be too (and if possible eliminating as much of it as possible)

 

If you can come up with suggestions to tackle these issues it would be great, such as the armor revamp suggestion which led to armor 2.0. However i admit these types of post hardly get suggestions, so rather i would like to discuss about these factors as the main topics of meta-gaming in warframe and how much do you agree to them.

 

So which of these factors do you agree/disagree to as cause to meta gaming and how much? Please discuss!

Edited by Jacate
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The only problem i see that will happen with Armor 2.0, is that forums will be in uproar once it is released. People will complain about every single change, that their weapons and playstyle is ruined. As with every new change to the game machanics.

 

We need some change that will bring viablilty to the forgotten weapons and mods. Right now we have either crit or rainbow builds.

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The only problem i see that will happen with Armor 2.0, is that forums will be in uproar once it is released. People will complain about every single change, that their weapons and playstyle is ruined. As with every new change to the game machanics.

 

We need some change that will bring viablilty to the forgotten weapons and mods. Right now we have either crit or rainbow builds.

I too can see this happening. (community, uproaring, etc.)

The whole armor issue is really prevalent when you start fighting the lvl. 130-150 and up enemies, especially with the Grineer. I saw this going on allot during survival weekend, where the heavies would take 1 to 2 whole clips to down, aimed at the head too! At levels below those a player can pretty much get by with any decent weapon, multishot and a rank 7/8 serration, which I find to be fair.

Has there been any hint on how Armor 2.0 will work?

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If I was implementing a damage model for a game like warframe I would the following:

Organize the existing weapons into tiers lets say 1-4. Where 1 is the least effective and 4 is the most effective (based on overall dps and perks). For instance, I would put the Braton into tier 1, the braton prime into tier 2 or 3, and the soma into tier 4. Secondaries might look like Lato Tier 1, Aklato tier 2, kunai tier 3, and acrid tier 4.

Next normalize the damage output for each of these weapons within the tiers. Lets say it is based on 10000hp. All of the tier 1 weapons will take x seconds, the tier 2 will take y seconds (where y is less than x), etc.

Next assign a damage type to each weapon for its base damage. It should be more than 8 damage types (sothat a team can't cover all of the types perfectly with just their primaries and secondaries). So we could have fire, ice, lightning, AP, normal, laser, poison, etc.

Next for each enemy type in a specific type of mission (and frankly we would need a few more enemy types than we have currently) assign resistances and weaknesses that cover the entire range of damage types. If an enemy is weak to an element (at most two weaknesses), then you deal double damage. If an enemy is neutral you deal flat damage, and if an enemy is resistant (at most two) you deal 1/4 damage.

Elemental Mod contributions should all be delayed effects. Lightning damage might proc after building up a charge. Fire damage could be a steady dot. Cold damage could ramp up with more consecutive hits. The idea here is to allow a weapon to be modified to be able to efficiently kill resistant targets, but to allow the tenno using the right weapon for the job to apply more damage up front.

As levels increase health and damage would scale (not damage reduction). Also enemy variety could increase. Additional resistences could be added if enemies were near sub bosses which could be added to the game.

The advantages of this system is that no weapon of whatever tier you have progressed to is ever going to be bad. You'll run into some things that your tier3 fire shotgun will be excellent against, and some things that it will be bad against. Even if it is bad, it will only take a little longer to kill your target and that is when your ice mods will really kick in to help cover the weakness. Similarly you might want to take a fire pistol for runners, and an armor piecing primary for heavies. You might even take it a step further and actively craft a specific weapon for a series of missions. Furthermore, you might want to coordinate with your teammates to get better elemental coverage (enhancing the cooperative aspects of the game). Roles might emerge where players try to maximize their effectiveness against a narrow range of enemies.

In the current system most weapons work just fine so long as you find serration/hornet strike and a few elemental mods. At some point, around lvl 75 that stops being the case (much earlier for grineer). Armor ignore starts to be king, and ammo efficiency starts to be an issue. The above system eliminates the superiority of armor ignore by making every weapon just as good (within its tier) at least against some enemies. To solve the ammo efficiency problem you can apply the same technique. Just set a target overall damage output for a full stock of ammo and normalize the bullet count. So each weapon will deal approximately the same dps, and will deal aproximately the same raw damage by the time you've shot all your bullets. Then you decide how many pickups should be required to fill your ammo reserve from zero to full. Currently it is 14 for rifles. Divide the total ammo pool by this number and that will be the number of bullets you should get from a pickup. A spray weapon like the grakata or gorgon will have a huge reserve of bullets and you'll pickup tons to keep firing. A per S#&$ damage monster like the Ogris will have a tiny pool and pickup just a few rockets per ammo pack.

I'm sure there will be still be amazing weapons (whatever kills ancients efficiently), and there will be stinkers (a damage type that is mostly good against low hp enemies). If the tiers and damage type are explicit (along wih fire rate, etc) players will have a clear understanding of the relative power of the weapons.

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The best guns shoot biggest numbers, it's a fact. If your gun doesn't shoot big numbers then it's a bad gun and should go back in his corner.

Yep indeed. This creates meta gaming in warframe since only big numbers matter. Something can be done to solve this which is to introduce a new system that changes how damage is dealt and what happens when it is received. Simple but important

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There will be more "nerf gun X" threads in the first hour after patch than there were "nerf Darius" threads since his release

 

Edit: if the new system is gonna be as crit dependent as I understood then we might even see serious "nerf Grakata" threads

Edited by WhisperByte
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There will be more "nerf gun X" threads in the first hour after patch than there were "nerf Darius" threads since his release

 

Edit: if the new system is gonna be as crit dependent as I understood then we might even see serious "nerf Grakata" threads

Ar one point the Grakata held the title for highest burst DPS of any Rifle, believe it or not.

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Yep indeed. This creates meta gaming in warframe since only big numbers matter. Something can be done to solve this which is to introduce a new system that changes how damage is dealt and what happens when it is received. Simple but important

When damage is received either blue bar or red bar moves. It is how it should be. Everything else would be too confusing.

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I don't really see what is wrong with determining the optimal build/setup with testing and math.

 

Its something I very much enjoy doing.

Well won't it be more fun if the system wasn't just about damage? So everyone can have their own fun doing different testing because there is simply a few builds now and the amount of testing and math is varied.

 

The only item that works to increase this is mods and the mods released recently had an impact to this form of meta gaming which i am positive about.

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Well won't it be more fun if the system wasn't just about damage? So everyone can have their own fun doing different testing because there is simply a few builds now and the amount of testing and math is varied.

 

The only item that works to increase this is mods and the mods released recently had an impact to this form of meta gaming which i am positive about.

Sure I love math and testing. I'm just arguing against no metagaming.

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Sure I love math and testing. I'm just arguing against no metagaming.

I see. If meta-gaming didn't exist within a few variables in warframe then maybe it won't have to be discussed. However given the fact that no more than 4 builds exist for theorycrafting such as

 

Rainbow

Crits

Damage

AI

 

Shows how much meta gaming limits the games true testing potential. So metagaming on a whole needs to be changed. Removed? Well that we have to see first if change can stop it from being removed.

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I see. If meta-gaming didn't exist within a few variables in warframe then maybe it won't have to be discussed. However given the fact that no more than 4 builds exist for theorycrafting such as

 

Rainbow

Crits

Damage

AI

 

Shows how much meta gaming limits the games true testing potential. So metagaming on a whole needs to be changed. Removed? Well that we have to see first if change can stop it from being removed.

Funny I build differently to that. I go max AP damage then utility.

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Like I said, don't bother to fix the metagame.

It is a waste of time.

 

People will still find the most optimal setup available because it works. That is why cookie cutter builds exists or minor alterations of it. Because it is the easiest and most cost effective or just outright most effective way to run a certain way.

 

 

What DE can is to breathe back life in weapons that are considered lack luster with Armor 2.0.

It won't kill off min maxing or "best loadout / best DPS evar" people, but making more weapons a lot more viable will be good enough.

 

It is like Street Fighter, there are Tier A to Tier C characters.

If DE can make more lack luster weapons tier B+, just a little behind Tier A, that is good enough.

Edited by fatpig84
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Like I said, don't bother to fix the metagame.

It is a waste of time.

 

People will still find the most optimal setup available because it works. That is why cookie cutter builds exists or minor alterations of it. Because it is the easiest and most cost effective or just outright most effective way to run a certain way.

 

 

What DE can is to breathe back life in weapons that are considered lack luster with Armor 2.0.

It won't kill off min maxing or "best loadout / best DPS evar" people, but making more weapons a lot more viable will be good enough.

 

It is like Street Fighter, there are Tier A to Tier C characters.

If DE can make more lack luster weapons tier B+, just a little behind Tier A, that is good enough.

Instead of fixing Meta builds/games by removing them or etc, introduce more so in a way weapons are all equally special. The problem is that meta builds now are focused on a limited portion of weapons and overall lead to a number of unused weapons.

 

If every weapon can have their own optimal build that is no way the same, then overall this form of meta-gaming would allow all weapons to stand out, whereas the systems now only allow a group to stand out which could be said is the problem.

 

Also by making more weapons viable, you are agreeing that instead of removing or solving meta gaming, we can solve the part where too little weapons fitting in the meta build catergory can give all weapons life. So based on the 5 stated factors, it would be interesting to see DE's take and the communities too on how this can be improved or if some of this factors don't hold water to metagaming in warframe.

 

Funny I build differently to that. I go max AP damage then utility.

Well given the current mods that emphasize utility (such as whirlwind, speed holster, bersker, etc etc) there is a good progress to having weapons that can be useful without the need for the basic stats. Such is the example of another poster on modding the sicarus to working just fine and etc.

Edited by Jacate
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When damage is received either blue bar or red bar moves. It is how it should be. Everything else would be too confusing.

The response could be a yellow bar, maybe even a green, orange, black, white, dots and etc move as the general idea you state is as long as one is damaged, a single marker of one's life must fall.

 

Also by saying everything else would be confusing when we haven't tried or accept other types of mechanics is like saying that beef taste like hell when you only tried pork which you didn't like and assume beef would be the same or worse. However as a point of agreement it will be confusing at the start, so is any new mechanic.

 

Although thank you for your genuine concern =D

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The only problem i see that will happen with Armor 2.0, is that forums will be in uproar once it is released. People will complain about every single change, that their weapons and playstyle is ruined. As with every new change to the game machanics.

 

We need some change that will bring viablilty to the forgotten weapons and mods. Right now we have either crit or rainbow builds.

 

I can already see people complaining that now elemental mods are useless since they now only proc on crits (as far as we know).

 

People tend to dislike being depowered, even if its in the good of future gameplay changes that will make the game more challenging (outside of ED and MD) and choice more prevalent. As it stands now, the optimal build for most weapon is slap on as much elemental damage as you can which is quasi universal.

 

Afterwards, having a certain elemental build might actually make some much more effective against one type of enemy and much less against another which in itself, is a good thing since it'll reward preparation and not just damage stacking.

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