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Reducing the disposition of the Rivens is cool, but ...

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What do you think about improving the conditions of the Rivens market? Any "God Roll" is worth over 5000 platinum, this is disheartening to anyone who starts playing and is a joke to anyone who has been in the game for so long.

Today it's hard to get the Riven you want without 9999 platinum in your pocket, changing disposition is easy and automatic, but how about making this whole experience less toxic and abusive?

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7 minutes ago, Peter said:

What do you think about improving the conditions of the Rivens market? Any "God Roll" is worth over 5000 platinum, this is disheartening to anyone who starts playing and is a joke to anyone who has been in the game for so long.

Today it's hard to get the Riven you want without 9999 platinum in your pocket, changing disposition is easy and automatic, but how about making this whole experience less toxic and abusive?

Only a couple really viable ways to do that and any of them would make more players mad than it is worth. Making rivens fixed prices on the market would make too many of the "god sellers" angry because of their "lost" investments. Making all rivens basically the same would defeat the entire purpose of rivens and would further exacerbate the problem that disposition changes were an attempt to solve while making the meta crowd angry for possibly destroying their precious builds.

 

In short: rivens were a good idea, having them be something players operate a market for from the very start was a horrible idea and there is no real way to fix it at this point.

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Posted (edited)
17 minutes ago, Xaelroa said:

Only a couple really viable ways to do that and any of them would make more players mad than it is worth. Making rivens fixed prices on the market would make too many of the "god sellers" angry because of their "lost" investments. Making all rivens basically the same would defeat the entire purpose of rivens and would further exacerbate the problem that disposition changes were an attempt to solve while making the meta crowd angry for possibly destroying their precious builds.

 

In short: rivens were a good idea, having them be something players operate a market for from the very start was a horrible idea and there is no real way to fix it at this point.

I mean, it's really terrible to see those prices, the whole game has a relatively balanced market, primes, mods, frames, weapons, deluxes ... but then you want to buy a good riven for your weapon and the price is basically all your arsenal twice, and if you don't buy it you get the feeling of being incomplete.

The game as a whole has a nice and well-balanced market mechanics (credit tax, trade limits, etc ...), but when we enter the world of Rivens it's a never-ending scam-packed mess.

Edited by Peter

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Xaelroa said:

Only a couple really viable ways to do that and any of them would make more players mad than it is worth. Making rivens fixed prices on the market would make too many of the "god sellers" angry because of their "lost" investments. Making all rivens basically the same would defeat the entire purpose of rivens and would further exacerbate the problem that disposition changes were an attempt to solve while making the meta crowd angry for possibly destroying their precious builds.

There's no panacea, but there are a few ways to address the situation without shaking things up -too- badly.  One very conservative way:  increase the amount of kuva rewards (and/or decrease costs) and the number of avenues to get it.  I'd also suggest removing the riven transmuter  from transmutation , and transferring it to a new recipe that allows the player to pick the output weapon from a list.

There are a lot more radical things that could be done, but these seem relatively easy to implement and less likely to get as many people angry.  Yes there would still be some angry people.  That's inevitable with any change.  And -without- any change. 😉 Hopefully there'd be fewer angry people then there are now and maybe, maybe...a very few more who were actually happy about rivens generally.

Edited by Tiltskillet
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6 hours ago, Tiltskillet said:

There's no panacea, but there are a few ways to address the situation without shaking things up -too- badly.  One very conservative way:  increase the amount of kuva rewards (and/or decrease costs) and the number of avenues to get it.  I'd also suggest removing the riven transmuter  from transmutation , and transferring it to a new recipe that allows the player to pick the output weapon from a list.

There are a lot more radical things that could be done, but these seem relatively easy to implement and less likely to get as many people angry.  Yes there would still be some angry people.  That's inevitable with any change.  And -without- any change. 😉 Hopefully there'd be fewer angry people then there are now and maybe, maybe...a very few more who were actually happy about rivens generally.

Maybe it would be a good solution yes.

What I do not understand is the concern to make these people "angry",they make things unfriendly, I believe the public that DE should care about is the one who is playing and actively contributing and not the one who sells any kind of "god roll" for 9999p.

During that time I have already lost an average of 20 friends I called to play for this reason, the game itself no longer has so much endgame content, so you come to the end and find that you need to be a millionaire because a group of sick people controls the riven market.

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Posted (edited)
Just now, Peter said:

What I do not understand is the concern to make these people "angry",they make things unfriendly, I believe the public that DE should care about is the one who is playing and actively contributing and not the one who sells any kind of "god roll" for 9999p.
 

Well, a few reasons I can think of.  The most cynical one being that high riven prices must drive some amount of plat sales. And, while I say "cynical", that is some of what keeps the game afloat.

A less cynical one is that DE should respect as much as possible the time and investment of all their players, including ones who might be contributing to driving riven prices.  And not every one of those players is some swank, speculating, price-fixing, riven flipping cartel lord.  Some of them will be people who scraped and worked hard or overpaid to get one or two or three really valuable rivens in the current economy.  Devaluing that might be necessary for the health of the game, but it shouldn't be done carelessly.

And all solutions--even the ones I proposed--are going to have some  effects counter to what you want to accomplish.  And generally the more radical the solution, the larger the unintended side-effects.  For instance, if a price cap on a mod sales was implemented, I think you'd some amount of existing rivens just pulled out of circulation, and fewer people working at making gawdly rivens.  And then partly as  a consequence of that, I believe rivens that are offered for a lot less  now would tend to drift  up in price toward toward the cap. 

Edited by Tiltskillet

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And the current peice of a "god roll" is why I try to under cut everybody selling rivens for super high prices and make them mad by doing so. It pushes down the average and less people are willing to throw plat at the one that is worth 5K supposably. Whales who want power are the only ones getting these things and they are also the ones to complain when dispositions get a nerf because they spent so much plat. I say screw it and everybody undercut them greedy riven dealers and make them affordable for EVERYONE!

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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, (XB1)Zweimander said:

And the current peice of a "god roll" is why I try to under cut everybody selling rivens for super high prices and make them mad by doing so. It pushes down the average and less people are willing to throw plat at the one that is worth 5K supposably. Whales who want power are the only ones getting these things and they are also the ones to complain when dispositions get a nerf because they spent so much plat. I say screw it and everybody undercut them greedy riven dealers and make them affordable for EVERYONE!

Also, I do not think the argument that the "sellers" would lose their "investments", Arcane Energize was a set that was worth 8k, today worth an average of 1.6k, was much more affordable, everyone liked, everyone wants to buy and consequently this made more platinum circulate than before.

Same thing happens with the Rivens, they are expensive and discourages who wants to have one, and who has gets Salty with every drop of disposition.

In short, the current system is toxic and unpleasant, for those who try to roll one and who wants to buy one, does not bring anything of benefit to the game besides the illusion that "many platinum circulate", want to change dispo every month? so reduce the negative impact of that and make the system more friendly and fun.

Edited by Peter

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On 2019-08-14 at 6:38 PM, Peter said:

this is disheartening to anyone who starts playing and is a joke to anyone who has been in the game for so long.

I've never bought or considered buying a Riven. Rivens are not necessary for anything in the game. You are inventing a need for a given Riven with a roll that you want immediately. DE cannot fix you.

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14 hours ago, (XB1)Zweimander said:

And the current peice of a "god roll" is why I try to under cut everybody selling rivens for super high prices and make them mad by doing so. It pushes down the average and less people are willing to throw plat at the one that is worth 5K supposably. Whales who want power are the only ones getting these things and they are also the ones to complain when dispositions get a nerf because they spent so much plat. I say screw it and everybody undercut them greedy riven dealers and make them affordable for EVERYONE!

I quit Warframe (waiting for DE to delete my acc, which they seem reluctant to do, it's been 2 weeks since I opened the ticket) and gave all my Rivens to friends for free. Could have turned my former account into a giant plat sink (which DE would have probably loved) but chose not to. Yeah, among those Rivens are stuff for Fulmin, Every Kitgun, Rubico etc (with pretty good rolls like + CC and Multi on them). Probs just handed over few thousand plat worth of crap for free to others but I'm not coming back so why not?

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24 minutes ago, Datam4ss said:

I quit Warframe (waiting for DE to delete my acc, which they seem reluctant to do, it's been 2 weeks since I opened the ticket) and gave all my Rivens to friends for free. Could have turned my former account into a giant plat sink (which DE would have probably loved) but chose not to. Yeah, among those Rivens are stuff for Fulmin, Every Kitgun, Rubico etc (with pretty good rolls like + CC and Multi on them). Probs just handed over few thousand plat worth of crap for free to others but I'm not coming back so why not?

You just said the exact same thing a week ago in Dog Days topic. Is it some way to reassure yourself? Wanna talk about it?

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21 minutes ago, TeaHawk said:

You just said the exact same thing a week ago in Dog Days topic. Is it some way to reassure yourself? Wanna talk about it?

Nah, just reminding people there is no need to pretend Warframe is a compulsory job of life and death. There is no need to keep reassuring the self it will get better. You either want to play, or don't want to play. If you don't like the game and don't want to play, why torture the self? While you may see me as someone encouraging quitting in contrast to "quitters never win and winners never quit", I would say that someone in my position already "lost" at Warframe and bowing out is better than salting.

Just leave the game to those who still like it, and like me, rather than whining, just leave. It makes everyone happier, when you realize that perhaps the current iteration (not the past ones, which I enjoyed) of Warframe is just not for you and you are not obliged to play on. The problem with many is that they fall into the sunk cost trap and refuse to up and go. Which is a prime cause of salt, would you not agree?

Now, if one is so dissatisfied with all the systems, then why is one still playing? People trying to go "oh just wait, something will improve/new content is always coming" are essentially promising hot air on the part of the Devs. The Riven system, for better or worse, is here to stay and people dissatisfied with it can just leave. The Devs introduced it for a specific reason tied to indirect monetisation and if you disagree with their payment and spending options, don't buy and use the product.

Now, your assumption that it is linked to my personal vanity is a long stretch. I have no intent to download the game again or come back, so I don't have to reassure myself. However, I do have forum access until my account is finally deleted, so why not just remind others with a similar mindset that they are free to leave?

(Admittedly, if DE refuses to delete my acc because of Forum Activity, they should inform me and I will immediately cease visitation and posting on this forum)

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Posted (edited)

You said it well, a 'god roll', a 'god roll' is not any roll, it's an objective concept: 3 stats out of damage, multishot, crit chance and crit damage, with a an irrelevant negative, such as zoom, recoil in some cases and impact.

That's it. The odds are 1 in millions, an easy to do math.

You don't need a 'god roll', a god roll is about 30% more powerful than a 200p visican/satiata with no negative and about 2000% more expensive.

Are you following me? 30% stronger, 2000%+ more expensive.

The math is perfect and plays in your favor, in other words, buy the 200p mod.

Buying a groll is buying a hunt trophy for rng's head.

You don't need that, but if despite all that info you still choose to have a 'god roll' otherwise you'll feel incomplete, you better take it to a shrink.

Let's not even mention the rest of the people with a poor mentality here. 'I can't have the best, can't help but feel the need to have it, so screw everyone who has it.' or 'make rivens affordable for everyone'. 

Get off your high white horses, rivens ARE cheap AND affordable for everyone, very cheap, god rolls are not, that's it.

Can you imagine prius owners asking ferraris to be more affordable? Jeez.

My favorite part is calling it toxic and abusive, it's the butthurt milennial fusion of their two favorite words used to hide their own emotional weakness these days.

The riven exactly as you want will be expensive. I want a plane with 20 playboy bunnies. You won't see me crying at bombardier or playboy.

Edited by (PS4)cdzbrbr

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17 hours ago, (XB1)Zweimander said:

And the current peice of a "god roll" is why I try to under cut everybody selling rivens for super high prices and make them mad by doing so. It pushes down the average and less people are willing to throw plat at the one that is worth 5K supposably. Whales who want power are the only ones getting these things and they are also the ones to complain when dispositions get a nerf because they spent so much plat. I say screw it and everybody undercut them greedy riven dealers and make them affordable for EVERYONE!

Perfect words of someone who hasn't ever had a god roll.

Let me tell you something, son.

You don't try to undercut market with a god roll, you know why you don't?

Because in the same second you will be pm'd by a reseller who will gladly embrace the profit you are forfeiting, market is relentless, money is relentless. You don't like plat, well, someone will gladly take it off your hands, and plat, will gladly move to the pockets fo someone who likes it more.

Moreover, grolls are extremely rare, to exist one in the market is rare, to exist two or three to the point where you can properly use the word undercut is unfathomable.

I can guarantee it that you have never owned a groll and that if you ever used those words, you were selling something that was not a god roll. 

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6 hours ago, Datam4ss said:

quitters never win and winners never quit

I've just watched trainspotting yesterday. That gives this line a new vibe.

6 hours ago, Datam4ss said:

There is no need to keep reassuring the self it will get better. You either want to play, or don't want to play.

That's a good point.
 

 

6 hours ago, Datam4ss said:

Now, if one is so dissatisfied with all the systems, then why is one still playing?

I think the main reason it that people spend their time and money on this game. It's hard to confess that your long-term investment did not give benefits.
 

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13 hours ago, peterc3 said:

You are inventing a need for a given Riven with a roll that you want immediately. DE cannot fix you.

Sorry, where did I say I want a god roll? Did you just skip the whole post?

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DE is selling power. It's not about "upsetting" the riven mafia or riven collecting players, it's about losing money. If it was about player satisfaction we wouldn't have dispo nerfs.

Spoiler

And I'm not devbashing here. Devs like Steve or Geoff and many others seem like decent people. They have ambition and work tirelessly on this project. But sharks from the monetization department have to do their job as well. And well, you have to have money to keep the lights on.

Rivens, in a way, are perfect for that. A lootbox that you can only get for free OR purchase the desired item from the lootbox from another player. And hey, you can get plat for riven trading by trading, amirite? So devs have their hands completely clean, right? But how many players do you think are acquiring thousands of plat for their rivens through gameplay? Players that love the grind will grind for their rivens, instead of grinding for plat to purchase them, re-rolling them again and again, going through several layers of RNG on daily basis. DE is cashing in on the whales, players who purchase plat in large amounts to get the wanted result right away.

What makes the monetization policy behind rivens even more obvious is the fact that on multiple occasions DE simply dodged the question regarding kuva and riven issues by giving non-answers and even outright denied the possibility of kuva scaling in kuva survival missions. They also openly admit to regulate riven dispos based on how popular the weapon is which to me shows how strong the grip of the cash-dep is. Just think about it:

  1. A primed version of a trash 5/5 dispo weapon comes out with amazing stats/a new powerful weapon with 3/5 dispo comes out. For some people it might even be a motivational factor to purchase a prime package or just purchase some plat to purchase the weapon/weapon bundle in question right away.
  2. Prices for rivens of said weapons jump sky-high.
  3. Players purchase rivens. Large amounts of plat are circulating. Prices are high even for trash-rolls, since rivens are RNG based, their amount is limited and they can be rerolled anyway.
  4. At some point a large amount of players have their rivens comfortably placed in their weapon, circulation slows down.
  5. Here comes the dispo nerf and a possible meta shift. Players that had their rivens nerfed will be easily swayed to purchase a new riven by the next 5/5 or even 3/5 unbalanced weapon, thus cycle begins again.

A lot of obvious non-trade-related solutions for the riven issues come to mind:

  • Increase the kuva rewards drastically/reduce reroll costs
  • Allow players to simply select stats/pay for them with in-game resources
  • Allow players to roll stats randomly, but lock each stat in place by spending resources, increasing the price of a reroll for each stat "locked", thus allowing a player to gradually build their riven with an RNG element still in the picture

But none of that will be implemented any time soon. Because if it happened, riven economy would tank, and with it, related plat purchases. Some "nice guys" that defend that system don't help either, heh.

Also, some dudes here said "you can play without rivens/good rivens and still have fun". But come on, really? It's like saying that "you can go around wearing rags for clothes - they do the job, they keep you warm, lmao, just sew them together lol, don't be negative dude" or "just stop caring man lmao it's so easy, just defy your mental state lmao why do we even have psychology". You won't dangle a damn carrot in front of a donkey for nothing. That way of thinking is flawed and they should probably stop polishing that white armor of theirs at this point, since for one of them it's polished to the point of becoming a mirror.

TL;DR - This system is built to exploit players with a certain mentality. And it won't change any time soon. Capitalism, hо!

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16 hours ago, (PS4)cdzbrbr said:

Perfect words of someone who hasn't ever had a god roll.

Let me tell you something, son.

You don't try to undercut market with a god roll, you know why you don't?

Because in the same second you will be pm'd by a reseller who will gladly embrace the profit you are forfeiting, market is relentless, money is relentless. You don't like plat, well, someone will gladly take it off your hands, and plat, will gladly move to the pockets fo someone who likes it more.

Moreover, grolls are extremely rare, to exist one in the market is rare, to exist two or three to the point where you can properly use the word undercut is unfathomable.

I can guarantee it that you have never owned a groll and that if you ever used those words, you were selling something that was not a god roll. 

No but I have come close and the amount of plat people want for these rivens is ridiculous and only whales buy into them. They are not even needed and a decent riven is more then enough to bring pretty much any weapon up to snuff in my opinion as a 5 year warframe veteran. And it may not seem like much, but if I practically give a quite good riven away to someone for a small sum of plat that takes down the average and makes it harder for people to sell their "God rolls" some of which I have seen and they are not the quality of one. Feel free to disagree of course but theirs enough people doing it to have some effect and make those who try to be greedy take forever to fine their whale as I have seen people unable to get the price they want many times and have to settle for less. Most people dont even want a perfect riven anyway so as long as the average stays far lower then what they want life will be hard for them trying to get their 2-5K plat which is quite a bit of money IRL especially for people who play on console as we lack plat discount coupons...

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Posted (edited)

Only way to reduce their price is removing LOT OF rng aspect from rivens.

Simply because they actually worth the hundreds and thousands of pt, if you think about how much effort/time you have to spend, to get a specific roll.

Edited by Test-995

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Le 16/08/2019 à 04:21, (PS4)cdzbrbr a dit :

You said it well, a 'god roll', a 'god roll' is not any roll, it's an objective concept: 3 stats out of damage, multishot, crit chance and crit damage, with a an irrelevant negative, such as zoom, recoil in some cases and impact.

Quite funnily this notion of "godroll" is that dumb that even status weapons rivens godrolls still include criticals. Riven hoarders are so obsessed with plat they even try to sell you highly expensive crit.+crit.dmg rivens for a Phantasma... Roll it yourself, get damage+elements and you're done. Warframe is no rocket science but its trading is all but idiotproof.

Anyone shouldn't ever spend more than 100-200 pl on a riven, and stop caring about stupid rolls when one can roll it by himself. The whole mafia would crumble but at this point i'm wondering if most buyers are also the one who are making tons of plat out of ridiculous rivens too... I wouldn't say that i don't have 3k to spend on a riven, but why would i do that ?! Better use another weapon or wait for a disposition nerf (or [hint]...not use a riven). ^ ^

No one needs godrolls anyway since game is already easy, quite decent rolls especially with high disposition are all we need. Spending 5k plat on such thing only shows one thing - people who are buying them aren't smarter than the one who are trying to rip off others on such trade.

A hint though, don't trust anyone and try to get the riven at your own price every single time. Most rivens are overpriced too, especially the highest rolls. Lots of hoarders are selling mods but not so many people are actually buying them, except from most popular weapons but [second hint] most popular weapons aren't necessarily the best ones...

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Supply and demand, friend.

There are crazy people who put those prices, because there are other crazy people who buy them.

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A simple solution would be the ability to make a Riven account bound in exchange for being able to lock stat slots as we see fit. Like the roll on one slot? Lock it. Once you get a good roll on another, lock it and continue to roll the third/fourth until you get what you're after. That would mean people who want to sink time into Kuva farms could do so and eventually get the kind of rolls they're wanting and traders can continue to roll with full RNG and hope they get something of value to sell for plat. It's already been suggested a crazy number of times without happening, though, so don't hold your breath.

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It’s free market. Sellers can set whatever “asking” prices they want, but this doesn’t mean you can’t negotiate or have to pay that amount to get one. 

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