why "new content" won't satisfy you ... ?!

[K3RB3RUS]

Hello everyone, 

i am trying to make it short and focus on (my) main points. Please, don't roll with your eyes, bear with me, and i know some if these changes would "totally alter" warframe. we all know that they completely remade the mod system once ...

What are "people looking for endgame" playing in warframe?

I assume: Tridolons: hunting Arcanes either for their own good or for trading them. Kuva-Missions: Either for rolling their own god-like rivens & keeping them or trading them. Some special missions like sabotage: get all three caches for high voltage / shell shock and then mostly trading it. These missions will always have some replay-value for these player who wishes to trade / get platinum. In contrast, missions like the ropolalyst get dumped as soon as one got all Wisp Parts / Amalgam mods (as they are not tradeable).

Warframe's grind happens before getting the drop and it feels forced. You have to run this specific Boss to get this specific loot for quite a number. (Most boss fights are also braindead speedruns.) The longer the grind, the more exhausting and less fun it feels: You are stuck on one very narrow mission and either the drop chances are really low (ephemeras) or the lootpool is very diluted (equinox' 8 parts). You are re-running the missions more often than you would like to. The replay value of this mission is going instantly to zero when you finally get your desired loot. It feels not rewarding doing another Flydolon-Fight "just" for Nightwave Standing and in my eyes this is the main issues people are having with these kind of challenges. The mission itself has near-to-zero replay-value. (clem-bounty, comes to my mind)

I know that there are design choices in all of that, but just discuss these ideas:
First: Make "everything" tradeable. This will create some replay value for those who wants to farm f.i Harrow or Ivara for trade reasons. This will maybe change nothing at all, as soon as the player based is saturated "with all the good loot to have".

Second: Make frames, weapons, arcanes drop with varying stats (while being tradeable) and massively bumb the drop chances; This is a huge one. I know. But whats the feeling getting this or that blueprint AGAIN? Mostly not a good one, as long as it not tradeworthy for a lot of plat. But with stats varying in small ranges (say 80-100), keeping core elements always more or less in a defined area you will alwas get a chance of a better copy; this rewards those who want to min-max everything and are willingly grinding missions for the 100th time, this also rewards those who get those perfect drops and want to trade them for good plat, and also rewards those who just want to get it no matter the quality (mostly mr-fodder) because its speeds up the process of acquiring to do so.

Because, no matter how hot the new stuff was, (looking at you mr. disruption mode) if the loot table is unrewarding, people won't play it.

Third: Don't limit drops on specific bosses / missions. It worked in Diablo 2 - one of the most beloved games at that time. Why change that?

Or, to put it in other words: Warframe is a looter game where the loot is uninteresting and not inspiring. Seldom you have this "WOHOO A UNIQUE!"-feeling. Instead i have 16 million Salvage 4 million Nano spores and 4538 copies of Vitality. (yeah dissolve into endo - i know) 

Don't know if that's matter: I'm MR27, having 3500hours on my "playtime" - i think around 1000-1500 is just trade-time so lets say im around 2Kish. As if that counts

Last month, a friend of mine retried liking warframe, i tried my best to keep him in the game, but in the end, wf is just not right for him - that's ok but we discussed some points as why he doenst like it and this struck some nerves on my end - in regard of reading many complaints about the "crazy grind" in warframe and the "lack of content" or "enjoyment of replay" in this game. Before anyone comments stuff like "this is already known" i tell myself - there is a chance, that some DEV maybe reads it, and adapts 1 thing or another. I honestly dont think that it will happen, but in this forum are already like 1 million posts - another one is not doing any harm ...

Edited August 15, 2019 by K3RB3RUS

[Aldain]

I just want Empyrean to come out before next year personally.

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

Is this meta complaining?

it feels like meta complaining.

[K3RB3RUS]

vor 3 Minuten schrieb (XB1)GearsMatrix301:

Is this meta complaining?

it feels like meta complaining.

what do u mean?

i am more complaining about the constant "give us more content" guys - in a weird way while trying to explain why they may feel so.
i personally like this game very much but, since things are not only black or white, i see things which can be better, create a better loop of playing and rewards

Edited August 15, 2019 by K3RB3RUS

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

Just now, K3RB3RUS said:

what do u mean?

i am more complaining about the constant "give us more content" guys - in a weird way while trying to explain why they may feel so.
i personally like this game very much but, since things are not only black or white, i see things which can be better, create a better loop of playing and rewards

So you’re complaining about player behavior. That’s meta complaining.

[Rawbeard]

1 hour ago, K3RB3RUS said:

i am trying to make it short

that was a lie

[peterc3]

3 hours ago, K3RB3RUS said:

Make frames, weapons, arcanes drop with varying stats

This is, to be perfectly blunt, garbage sitting on the surface of the sun.

3 hours ago, K3RB3RUS said:

Third: Don't limit drops on specific bosses / missions.

You failed to mention what this means to Warframe without necessitating preexisting knowledge of D2.

[kgabor]

The problem isn't that the 'grind' in Warframe is long. (apart from garbage rng farms it can't even really be called grind as long as you know what you're doing)

It's that these 'endgame activities' tend to be just boring one dimensional gearchecks with next to no fun value or challenge.

It's either you're undergeared to the point they just become frustrating as you don't deal enough damage/don't get enough efficiency/don't complete something fast enough etc. or your gear outright trivializes the content by itself without much input, with rare exceptions. (but you have to deliberately pick the more challenging option with all the cheese and imbalance that exists in the game)

Or they are simply just bulletsponges that ignore half the game mechanics as a lazy way to ignore the powercreep instead of quitting to listen to players's whining about more content and taking the time to properly balance the game.

Simply put, no challenge equals no fun, a mod tool to delete all mobs and an autowin button is not fun for most people playing video games, if it would they would be watching dumb cliche fanservice movies/anime with plot armors and Mary Sues where they know what will happen in the next 2 hours or they would be taking drugs or do something else dumb.

[K3RB3RUS]

vor 8 Stunden schrieb peterc3:

This is, to be perfectly blunt, garbage sitting on the surface of the sun.

This may be your opinion, i respect that, but do respect others as well.

So please tell me, why this is not good? rivens are liked by many and farmed be these, over and over again, rivens with even the same attributes are not the same due to varying stats, trades for more plat than others because of that. so why is this idea garbage?

 

@kgabor - some points are valid, but i feel more comfortabel when saying "you may be partially right (or wrong) but i think, one of thousand other reasons, is this and that ... 

both of you are kind of all the comments of this forum in a nutshell: one, who is only insulting without even trying to contribute at least something, the other is painting a picture so black&white, that there are no shades in between. no distinguishing. in a more or less complex system, called game, where player experience a.k.a. fun hardly being defined through just one parameter. its always the sum of its parts.

you are right: no challenge no fun. but there are a lot more than these 2 scenarious. either im playing myself and restrict myself or i simply remind me on my first days in warframe. i seldom had the feeling that im sooo undergeared that the content wasnt enjoyable. in fact, i was challenged, sometimes more, sometimes even more but had a great time with that. now, today, if i want to, i can nuke the whole starchart, but i limit myyself on playing frames and weapons who are fun to play with, where i like the sound of the rifle more than its stats (braton vandal)

you are wrong: the grind is not long. we had so many people complaining about the ridiculous number of runs they had to make for getting frost ephemera (or sth. else) until DE sometimes upped the drop chances.

[TeaHawk]

I agree with everything said by OP. Looting is unrewarding. Reward system itself is badly designed (rewards does not scale with levels), and there's literally too much grind for nothing.
You know how many times you should kill Til Regor to have 100% probability of getting all parts? 64 times. I've had the last part on 29th run. And hell it was dumb speed-run each time.
I have all the other parts in double in my inventory. I can't do anything with them. If it would be tradeble, I would give it for free. Cuz I don't want anybody to go through this hell.

And then... loot is really boring at some point. Even rivens does not help as you know what you're looking for long before making a first roll. There's no room for random and unique stuff. There's no room for creativity. And there's an outdated gameplay.

Things that OP suggest would have fixed a couple of things. But DE would never make everything tradeble, because it will ruin their monetization. Why spending 325 plat on warframe, while someone is selling it for 50p on the market? You see where I'm going?

[Femuru]

This post feels like you're asking a question with another question that has a different answer lol. New content won't be satisfying because they keep using the same formula which is a bunch of boring enemies (some with invulnerability for artificial bland difficulty), that has nerf/buff conditions(rather than puzzles or challenges), and going into endless scaling on Lego maps(when it should have engaged combat to begin with than cheesing repeated steps for boring hours or a boring afk nuke 20 min).

Loot is important and I know that but personally I stopped caring about loot for about couple years. Trading I'm all cool with but randomized stats well rivens exist for guns but if u talking stuff for frames bad idea and I mean chaotic bad. Some frames are based on mechanics like ash or nyx need certain stats to strip armor while others are just pure dmg so it'll be another chaos in power creeping and balancing/reworking anything will be a nightmare not only us but DE (there is a reason ppl are against riven for frames).

If u wonder why ppl always see other ppl leave aside from the horrible new player experience, it's not cuz u need to "take a break" or "wait for content", it's cuz the game isn't fun enough or expectations don't meet (how many millions registered but only how many few thousand continue?). Ppl gonna be like "fun is subjective" or "lower your expectations", where is the fun is spamming buttons with no effort or attention in a tiny room. When it comes to expectations when ppl think a space shooter we imagine crazy aliens or monsters that we need to gun down, instead we see tiny plain creatures that feels sad to kill them cuz I could do so with a flick of my pinky, we see these mechanics without a need for them instead it's just learning to abuse them which becomes disappointing. Not only that but it barely keeps u engaged both gameplay and story, while story isn't bad but it isn't consistent while still unfinished with little to no character writing as also why most ppl vote to kill the lotus cuz really there is no attachment. You can look at borderlands, destiny, or halo even that follow a story from start to finish and gameplay where you are constantly active with enemies/missions that atleast feel more impactful or even good pvp/raids for more consistent/dedicated players. (and no I'm not saying "these games are better" I'm making a point on what Warframe can learn from in a more suitable situation)

[Teridax68]

Reasons why new content typically doesn't satisfy everyone:

• Most (though not all) content is designed only with a limited amount of play time to be had from it. Once you get the rewards from ESO, Arbitrations, etc., there's no reason to keep playing that content any further.
• It is virtually impossible for content to offer any sort of a challenge to veterans, because as veterans we have the tools to trivialize almost any form of challenge. Thus, veterans starving for a meaty piece of content will often find themselves blazing effortlessly through it.
• DE's attempts to counter our power only tend to make the content less fun, rather than more challenging (the Wolf of Saturn Six was a bullet sponge, for example, but ultimately a pretty uninteresting fight). Thus, new content can sometimes be frustrating when it tries to force a challenge through artificial (and ultimately unsuccessful) difficulty.

Basically, we need content that isn't simply based on some limited incentive, e.g. a reward pool, and instead we need to have dynamic objectives that can be given to us infinitely. Moreover, we really need to have the abuse cases in our power looked at, no matter how painful that'd be in the short term, so that we can receive a proper challenge, one that would be truly fun to engage in. Until then, unless the content in question updates the repeatable components to the current game (e.g. the Jovian Concord with its update to the Corpus Gas City tileset), we're going to continue cruising through whatever is offered to us faster than DE can make more stuff, and not derive as much enjoyment from it as we could or should.

[Darth_Predator]

18 часов назад, K3RB3RUS сказал:

Make frames, weapons, arcanes drop with varying stats

WoW did that... now the item is trash unless it is the item you need + with socket + with the tertiary stat you want + titanforged for the max possible item level bonus. Which means for it to be not disenchanted you need either insane god level luck or run the dungeon that drops said item over and over and over again, probably 1k times per week and not actually getting what you want. Fun times. Not to mention that they increase max level cap you can get from titanforging each raid tier => you have to do it all over again to get that +5 ilvl version of an item you already have cause nothing in the new raid is statistically better than whatever you have but with that +5 increase. More fun times of running the dungeon you already saw basically 5 million times since this expack happened.

So, noooooooooooooooooooope. F that s**t.

[(PSN)AyinDygra]

If you're trying to identify trends in the content that leads to dissatisfaction with any new content, that's really a limited view of what's possible; it's assuming all new content will follow the same formula. It's clearly historically possible, but the trend is not a trait of all possible new content. If that makes sense...

The points you raised to fix the idea of new content not being satisfying... aren't limited to "new content", and that skews the entire context. They apply to the entire game. However, the solutions to the perceived problems presented will lead to other problems (some bigger, some small), IMO.

• First (and third), making everything trade-able. I'd like this for non-prime warframe parts too, even if it's just gifting, but as mentioned, it's part of their monetization system, selling frames that are more tedious to grind for or build the needed standing for, or bypassing a difficult boss fight for the drop (or a combination of the above for recent frames.) In many cases, due to quests, pre-requisites to the boss fight for the drop, etc, it is easier to get the Prime version of a frame, than the base version (like Equinox - 8 parts, Saryn requiring Arena point build-up to access the Kela fight, Mesa requiring Mutalist Alad V coordinates from Invasions to craft keys to enter the fight, Chroma because of the Saryn component, Trinity because of the Ambulas access stuff, soon Atlas because it requires that archwing battle and people dislike archwing, among others, off the top of my head), at least until they're vaulted
  _{(and then we run into the Unvaulting system and using the Void and/or the Plains of Eidolon and Orb Vallis bounties - the void being much worse, and these bounty slots competing for or replacing the current new Prime's release instead of just alternating new release with unvaulting on either Earth or Venus open worlds, as well as using the Void... but that just makes too much sense.)}

I also don't think making warframe part blueprints drop from more sources would necessarily be a better situation, though. One thing that's important in a farming/looting game, with rarer components to collect, is to be able to "target" something, to help mitigate some of the RNG involved. (For Equinox, for example, I'd move the parts to the Vay Hek battle, and alternate the drops available with the Earth tileset (not cetus) day/night cycle, so get Equinox day form parts during the day, night parts at night, limiting the drop pool at either time to just 4 parts like other frames.)

Having only one place to get something can get boring if the drop chances are too low, I'll agree, especially if the item cannot be traded and must be "earned" (I take exception to the concept that some people think you earn something that is randomly dropped; that's like saying you earned winning the lottery... thus, I get no satisfaction from drops in games like this, simply an end to frustration waiting for the coin flip to finally go my way - since no amount of personal effort changed the rewards to favor that outcome compared to someone who just spent 5 minutes doing the same thing, and taking me weeks. I got Conditioned Overload on one of my first visits to Ophelia and had no idea it was a rare drop... my friend who joined about a year ago, still hasn't gotten it to drop.)

I'd keep Warframes on specific bosses. Mods could come from enemy types found in any mission where they appear, not just one mission or enemy, more common ones could be separated by faction. Resources are already linked to planets instead of limited locations. Arcanes are linked to Eidolons, and this is something I could see expanding the sources of to Orb Mothers and even 3/3 Cache's, Sorties (replacing raw endo), and in the future, Kuva Liches and the Planes of Duviri, to give people solo options to hunt them down, and varied challenges to get them (all of them, not just a set only from Eidolons, or only from Orb mothers... though the drop chances could be weighted differently for different sources to allow people to target farm more efficiently. So as not to dilute the drop tables, for instance, the caches of different areas would have different drop tables of those arcanes.)

In a similar way, I'd distribute Axi relics to more missions across the Void, the Derelict, Sedna, Eris and the Kuva Fortress. Each node would have a smaller selection of Axi relics, so they could be target farmed more efficiently than having them all bunched together in certain missions with a wide drop table. As one reason for the Prime Vault's existence was to lessen the dilution of the drop tables, with that many new nodes, changes to the Prime Vaulting/Unvaulting system, that they've spoken about on dev streams, may be more achievable.

This goes directly into the second "solution point":

• I massively disagree with randomized stats on frames and weapons. Imagine you go through all that horrible grind for Equinox, and you get one that doesn't have good stats (you say in a defined range... but I doubt anything less than the max roll will be considered OK). You say to bump drop rates on that, to reduce the grind at the same time... but no, all this does is increase the grind until you don't get the trash version of the thing you're farming. I've seen a game that focuses on loot and random stats on that loot, and drops so much loot that even rare stuff is treated like garbage due to the randomized stats. It's not a good situation at all.

Imagine you finally get Conditioned Overload, and it's got a negative modifier akin to rivens... (or the minimum roll you get is less than the stat we get right now without randomization) yeah, random is really really bad, in these cases. That's just the tip of the iceberg, going into balancing: do you base balancing on the average stats a frame has? or do you balance based on the weakest or strongest stats?

Is it then OK for a "rare" thing to have higher stats because not as many people will have it? I don't like this at all. It may lead to diversity and a reason to keep grinding for the same thing... but it's still the same thing, just with different stats. No, just no. At least not in Warframe. I think this is a PROBLEM with Rivens, not a trait to spread like a plague into the rest of the game. If there were a way to improve whatever trash version you got, progressively (not randomly, and never resulting in a decrease of stats), over time, to the max stats it can have, using some component you get by breaking down lesser versions of it ... maybe, MAYBE you have the bones of a workable system.

Related to the "randomization" of stats issue, that makes it actually very unlikely to ever be added to Warframe, gladly, is Rivens already have a limit because, they say, the database storage capacity requirements to record all the different stats, just on those mods, is too much to increase capacity any further. You can't balloon that issue out to every single piece of gear in the game - at least with what we know of Warframe's database structure.

Looting in Warframe isn't so much about getting a rare cool unique like Diablo/Exile ARPGs (and exile is arguably more about farming currency to trade to other players, than to get the garbage gear that drops on the ground, without a contained in-game trade system to boot). Warframe is more about collecting resources from normal missions, and getting blueprints from special missions, then crafting the resulting equipment. (and at least Warframe's market functions with the game's premium currency, allowing players without much cash to get actual cash-shop items, unlike either of the above games. It could still use an in-game market, but that's another topic, related, but off-topic here.)

The whole cool unique thing is limited and relegated to Mods, Rivens, and Arcanes, not the normal enemy drop tables and normal grind. Those are your special pieces of gear that you equip. Rivens clearly have plenty of room for improvement as a system. Arcanes could use more sources, as well as some other rare mods.

I'm personally glad there aren't "Uniques" like the ARPGs mentioned above (where a single piece of gear can dictate whether or not you can even make a build work), or even like Destiny. Many weapons in Warframe would be considered "uniques" in the other games, because they have alt-fires, special mechanics, etc, only they're just built in.

Overall, I think Warframe has a winning system in place, that could use some tweaks... but not the massive overhaul as stated in the OP.

 

The closest Warframe gets to a really sustainable "Endgame" repeatable content, as someone above said (and I'm glad someone else sees this), is the Invasion system linked to the Fomorian Fleet and Razorback Armada. These are community goals to strive for activating - the actions of everyone playing and choosing sides in the invasion system, impact the boss battles opening. I'm unclear on whether or not relays still get destroyed in the Fomorian Fleets are not stopped, and I have no idea what world-state changes based on the Razorback armada, if any.

The Invasion system and the balance of power in the Origin System should be expanded on:

• Given more consequences
• More ways to interact with it
• More rewards for various stages of it (maybe faction vendors)
• Maybe change the end-of-mission rewards for all Faction Nodes across the entire Origin System, based on the world state. More/Less credits, resources, universal drop chance of some mods or weapons from certain factions based on the world state.
• new enemy units (or more elite units like Nox, or more Eximus units) being released beyond being hunted by the assassin squads...
• And it needs a much clearer indicator as to what our actions are doing, than a gauge filling up beneath each of those boss battles (with no indication of how to really change it... does helping the Grineer speed up the Fomorian fleet gauge? Does helping the Grineer lower the Corpus gauge? Does doing a mission for one side or the other instantly impact the gauge, or do you need to do all 3 for the pay to impact the gauge? Does doing more than the 3 required still impact the gauge? I mean, sure, read the wiki... but that should be a lot more clear in the game, among the other things I listed there.)

Killing the infested Hives on Eris could be put into a larger system to fight back the Infestation faction, beyond just the Invasion system. There could be different types of Hives that produce more of certain units, and completing those hive missions could reduce the number of those units in the random spawning algorythms in all infested nodes (could be a personal thing, rather than universal)

• If the New War does something like this, only with the Sentients, there's potential for new content that has sustainable replayability. Perhaps depending on story-state, new node modes across the entire Origin System could be opened, rather than Nightmare or Syndicate or Kuva versions, make them "New War nodes", now with Sentients on a rampage, killing Tenno, Corpus, Infested, and Grineer alike. Depending on your Invasion world-state, the Corpus or Grineer could assist you in those fights, or have better units to fight back against the Sentients... do you see where I'm going with this?  The goal in the invasion missions isn't so much success or failure of the individual missions, or the loot you get from them, but how they change the world state... an intangible reward with potential to change in desirability with other systems in place.

(There's also the potential for a more customizable personal endgame worldstate that only effects you, and only you can change, rather than the universal thing above, perhaps tied more to the Syndicate system, and the new Kuva Liches.)

 

A new "Endgame" game mode needs objectives that cannot be trivialized by infinite damage, and the loss state is not player death. Timers are done to death with SO/ESO and Survival. This is what needs work on developing. (Clearly, it's not an easy topic to address, and I don't have a good reply ready to place as a reply in a thread, instead of as a formal topic that would be more fitting to discuss any individual's suggestion for an endgame, not fitting for a general topic like this.)

 

The missions that change objective mid-stream, similar to Openworld mission-strings, could be implemented in a quest-type fashion, to satisfy people who want more diversity, however, I think being able to plan ahead and bring the most effective tools for a job is one of the key strategic factors available to players who have a large arsenal of multiple frames and weapons to choose from, and changing a mission mid-objective to something that the frame is not well-suited for, would go against that planning ahead thing. Sure it would be more challenging to force a spy frame into a defense objective, but not fun, IMO, obviously. Some people might like the challenge of using what they have to complete all objectives (seeing it as overcoming the challenge with skill instead of using the best tool for the job.)  They both have a place in Warframe, but the rewards for both should not be unique to one or the other, so it doesn't force people into those situations.

 

I entirely disagree with any attempts of balancing Warframe's encounters to be anything like Destiny1or2. Everything in that game was bland and static. Power levels were just "You must be this tall to ride this rollercoaster." Having a lower power level just put you at a disadvantage, and a higher power level was minimally important. They drip-fed you energy to use any of your abilities, and it was all gunplay. Enemies were bullet-spongey, sometimes even with headshots and weapons were constantly nerfed according to PVP balance, instead of PVE. (They did have better Scout Rifles, though.)

 

All that said, I like(d) playing Warfame because it's fun to play moment to moment - the combat (or at least it was, before Melee 2.7.... but that's a whole nother topic, again.)... and now mainly for its Parkour and power fantasy, compared to other shooter/looter type games out there. The polearm quick-melee is what drew me to this game, and to paraphrase a quote from a youtube video: "It's like Destiny, with your ultimate on all the time."  Fun trumps almost everything else in this game.

_{I've always liked that. Maybe it's just because I haven't reached the levels of "boring power" yet, and I'm still challenged on missions since I solo or duo almost everything and I don't spin2win... but I don't see a horrible state of affairs in the game that people seem so set against and demand nerfs to add challenge... (often, when I see people talk about nerfs, it's like wanting to shoot yourself in the foot... grinding for hours or months for something, and then getting something that wasn't even worth all that effort, and then demanding that it be made weaker because it makes getting other stuff easier? In a looter shooter like this, really, REALLY?)}

 

[AkyFenrir]

Il y a 22 heures, K3RB3RUS a dit :

What are "people looking for endgame" playing in warframe?

I assume:

1. Tridolons: hunting Arcanes either for their own good or for trading them. 

2. Kuva-Missions: Either for rolling their own god-like rivens & keeping them or trading them.

3. Some special missions like sabotage: get all three caches for high voltage / shell shock and then mostly trading it. These missions will always have some replay-value for these player who wishes to trade / get platinum. In contrast,

4. missions like the ropolalyst get dumped as soon as one got all Wisp Parts / Amalgam mods (as they are not tradeable).

5.Warframe's grind happens before getting the drop and it feels forced. You have to run this specific Boss to get this specific loot for quite a number. (Most boss fights are also braindead speedruns.) The longer the grind, the more exhausting and less fun it feels:

6. You are stuck on one very narrow mission and either the drop chances are really low (ephemeras) or

7. the lootpool is very diluted (equinox' 8 parts). You are re-running the missions more often than you would like to. 

8. The replay value of this mission is going instantly to zero when you finally get your desired loot. It feels not rewarding doing another Flydolon-Fight "just" for Nightwave Standing and in my eyes this is the main issues people are having with these kind of challenges. The mission itself has near-to-zero replay-value.

9. (clem-bounty, comes to my mind)

I know that there are design choices in all of that, but just discuss these ideas:

10. First: Make "everything" tradeable. This will create some replay value for those who wants to farm f.i Harrow or Ivara for trade reasons. This will maybe change nothing at all, as soon as the player based is saturated "with all the good loot to have".

11. Second: Make frames, weapons, arcanes drop with varying stats (while being tradeable) and massively bumb the drop chances; This is a huge one. I know. But whats the feeling getting this or that blueprint AGAIN?

Mostly not a good one, as long as it not tradeworthy for a lot of plat.

12. But with stats varying in small ranges (say 80-100), keeping core elements always more or less in a defined area you will alwas get a chance of a better copy;

13. this rewards those who want to min-max everything and are willingly grinding missions for the 100th time, this also rewards those who get those perfect drops and want to trade them for good plat,

14. and also rewards those who just want to get it no matter the quality (mostly mr-fodder) because its speeds up the process of acquiring to do so.

15.  Because, no matter how hot the new stuff was, (looking at you mr. disruption mode) if the loot table is unrewarding, people won't play it.

16. Third: Don't limit drops on specific bosses / missions. It worked in Diablo 2 - one of the most beloved games at that time. Why change that?

17. Or, to put it in other words: Warframe is a looter game where the loot is uninteresting and not inspiring. Seldom you have this "WOHOO A UNIQUE!"-feeling. Instead i have 16 million Salvage 4 million Nano spores and 4538 copies of Vitality. (yeah dissolve into endo - i know) 

18. Don't know if that's matter: I'm MR27, having 3500hours on my "playtime" - i think around 1000-1500 is just trade-time so lets say im around 2Kish. As if that counts

19. Last month, a friend of mine retried liking warframe, i tried my best to keep him in the game, but in the end, wf is just not right for him - that's ok but we discussed some points as why he doenst like it and this struck some nerves on my end - in regard of reading many complaints about the "crazy grind" in warframe and the "lack of content" or "enjoyment of replay" in this game. Before anyone comments stuff like "this is already known" i tell myself - there is a chance, that some DEV maybe reads it, and adapts 1 thing or another. I honestly dont think that it will happen, but in this forum are already like 1 million posts - another one is not doing any harm ...

1. Tridolons are very midgame, you can access it very quickly now (that's kinda bad in my opinion even if irrelevant here), so no wouldn't consider eidolon endgame. And there's a limited timeframe so you can't really fully focus on it.

2. I suppose we could consider it "end game" since it's basically min-maxing at this point.

3. That's not endgame... Idea of endgame is that you've to do a lot of stuff in order to access it (arbitration is, in the way that you've to complete the starchart to access it, sabotage doesn't because you can get it on earth)

4. There's a reason why regular warframes are not tradeable... The simple fact you completely miss it means you don't understand anything about economy making this remark very hard... Here's the thing, regular warframes are on the market for platinum. When people buy them it removes platinum from the pool available, DE needs platinum to be used on the market, if it goes from hand to hand it might never generate more platinum buy. That's why you can't trade regular warframes, it would make their platinum market version irrelevant and it's obvious DE will never do that.

5. Yeah what's the problem here ? You do realize you're talking about diablo II a bit later, the original game you basically made a MF sorceress and spammed Mephisto over and over and over... And you're complaining you've more bosses to fight here? Hmmm'kay.

6. You are NOT stucked on one mission, you don't have to grind it in a single go, you can make variation, if you don't like grinding the same boss over and over and you still do it, i'm afraid it's on You.

7. I won't deny i had to run some missions more than i liked (hello dog days ;) ) but still, you're talking about diablo II... There's variety here at least.$

8. Yes, you're not supposed to rerun a mission forever and i'm completely fine by that ! You say it's not rewarding to do it for nightwave, so you forget there's specific nightwave rewards right ? You're not doing it for "nothing", if you've a problem with nightwave design it's irrelevant to the "death" of a mission, quite the opposite, it make it live again...?

9. Well some would say getting one Clem clone is worth the trouble, you don't, i don't so nobody does ?   

10. I explained it earlier, really poor idea, when you want to change something you've to think that DE will have some interest in this matter or not ? This is directly linked to their business model therefore no, it won't be change.

11. Well i get free credits, that's something... And you say it yourself, if it's saturated there's no value for it.

It seems to me you have a problem to undestand platinum is mostly bought by real money, and something with a ridiculous value has as ridiculously low chances to get dropped by you right ? Well i'm not surprised with what you've been suggesting so far to break economy :)

12. Seriously you complain you've to farm to many times the same boss to get ONE single warframe and you bring this ? Like seriously ? with a stupidly low % to get the max stat frames you'll take 5years to farm a single mission if your luck sucks, gone through that, nooooo  (not even thanking here, no point it's terrible),

13. Min-Maxing as surprising as it might be for you is for a very low % of players, most people just look for the correct item, not for the max stat, because they don't want to invest the time or stuff for a single item. And again, why do you want something that you don't want ? you don't want to farm the same mission to get a warframe buuuuut you want to farm it forevent to get 10% more stat ? I just can't believe you!

14. The current system reward correctly Mr fodders, wouldn't change a thing for them for what you propose, unless if you suggest we should get like 2or more schematics by boss, and i'm not for that either.

15. So you missed the last trend with dog days, Rewards were there, it just required to farm the same mission a lot, guess what everyone was afk because there was no incentive to be active. The exact moment there was one, people for the most part were more active. It means rewarding activity and make "good" (on quote because kill stealing isn't being good as far as i'm concerned but whatever), is what is needed for replayability. Rewards are not the saint graal that will unlock whatever you think it would.

16 That's why on the original game everyone was farming Mephisto with one MF sorceress, because it was EASIER ! if you can get everything everywhere you'll farm even more the same easiest boss without variation ! How do people who played diablo 2 can come and say such things is behond me, seriously do you ever think?

17. Why do you play a game that doesn't inspire you? Real question here, i'm seriously wondering why you want to completely change a game before realising it might not be for you, and that's completely okay ! And when you get the same most common unique for the 50 time, it isn't exciting, if you're into identifying stuff, well there's a lot of diablo II clones out there for you ! And you should not even have to dissolve them...

18. Usually i would say it's irrelevant but in this very specific context, i'm just wondering why you played so long a game uninspiring to you?

19. AND THERE YOU GO ! Honesty goes a long way you know, hiding the central point of your rant on the very last is kinda scummy to me... Warframe is what it is, your friend don't like it. For what you've expressed you should find a good hack&slash to play with him ! That would be the mature approach to this situation, but it's easier to go rant on a forum to ask for a game to be a different game rightttt?

[K3RB3RUS]

@(PS4)AyinDygra - many many good points. i am really grateful for this response. i wouldnt agree on each an every point but yeah, made me realize some of my mistakes or where i havent thiought it all completely through even though i have to add that not everything was understand the way it way intented by me. but to not make this any longer, and the main case is kinda wacky on my side i just leave it.

 

@AkyFenrir - some good points until you started to insult me. then your blood got boiling and you started to completely miss my points. you should have stopped at point 10 or 11 .. after this its just ranting on your side. not cool bro

 

[AkyFenrir]

Pointing out bad arguments isn't insulting.

My tone is exactly the same from start to finish.

I proposed a solution so you could play with your friend !

I would admit i've been too far on my "do you every think?" and i apologize for this, sorry!

The rest looks fine by my standards. I'm not treating you in a bad way or anything of the sort, English is a secondary language to me, so might appear more aggresive than i would want, that's all i can say.

[SteelOverseer666]

*Rolls eyes*

[K3RB3RUS]

I never said I wanted warframe to be like diablo 2 - it was mentioned for one small thing: I am not the player who was and most likely would never run "just the easiest/fastest boss to get ember" - my point was about having a choice in doing certain tasks - here I'd like to mention how often people complain about nightwave and suggest/wish that certain quests can be freely chosen "do either 5 bounties or 3 whatever" - its just ideas i wanted to mention that 1) I am not the only one and 2) for certain player variety and choice in fulflling unpleasant stuff to make it less unbearable is more important

I never stated that i like or dislike nightwave. to get this out of the frame - don't assume something and judge me on that. it's kind of a whole diifferent topic and i'd like to stay OT here.

also I never stated that i dislike this very game. Just because I dislike some aspects of this game doesnt mean it is completely uninspiring to me. Maybe because i played so many hours i see (for myself!) parts of this game I really enojy, I just enjoy and barely enjoy. Independently the fact that i thing Defense is the most boring mission type i still LOVE that game.

When both of you mentioned "300plat for a warframe and therefore its not tradeable" you got me. But then - what are gamers doing? They skip the normal frames and either farm (bec. faster) or trade (because cheaper) the prime version. so, to still defend my idea: make the normal frame also tradeable if there is a prime version.

I dont know how much platinum is being bought, per month, and for which reason. we can try to imagine how many gamers buy this or that frame. But just let me say this: what i can say because I am experiencing it a lot: people spend a lot of plat for "mandatory" maxed and unrankend mods - up to a point where I get the feeling, if someones buys like 1000 plat he'll spent some 100-200 on getting mesa prime while the rest is being spent on mods, slots and cosmetics. The current price for maimng strike is something around 300plat while prime frames can be as low as 30 plat (zephyr prime) or 170p (Ash Prime) and high as 300plat (Rhino before unvaulting). Often i have trades with archgun mods only about 300 to 400 plat. I dont know if people willingly buy base frames for 300plat - maybe on the basis of "i care about the game and want to support" - just to give another example one of my bigger trading clients spent 2000plat on mods and 1000 on frames. (2 remarks: i know that 1 2 3 examples are far off of statistic evaluation and even loosing just 33% platinum sales due to frames being tradeable is huge) And then have a look at insane riven prices... even cheap rivens are traded for 40-50plat - most maybe around the 100-200ish mark and some for even very much higher prices.

Another side of this aspect: Who would acutally buy a specific frame. Gamer who are (easily) annoyed about the grind to get it. Will this gamer ever be satisfied with warframe? Would he buy 1 or 2 frames and never even fulfill the first quest mission, as so many registered gamers who dint even complete vor? Or is it someone whos having thousands of plat and dont mind spending some - where most of this plat is acquired via trading where HE actually never had paid for. Or 10 otehr different archetypes of gamers and not only the one who is paying all of DEs bills by himself

On my topic about varying stats on gear: I still believe that there are a not of lot of min-maxer, as also stated by some other fellow here, so grinding one piece of gear for 5 years will not happen for every piece of gear but only limited to those (players) who are willing to put in the effort and "need" absolut maxed stats. Regarding balancing - good point. but maybe the varying stats are limited to stats which are not mandatory for this frame / build. f.i. most people run low-range high-strength builds on either mirage or chroma - varying the range bonusses on these frames can have a huge impact for some players and a small for others. it worked in other games - this gave some items special "character" because this one was perfect - so i am more or less on the edge of my seat on this one - i can see potential in it and i also think people would love getting their absolut best amprex and dont settle for a mediocre one while being completely fine with a garbage karak. On the other side I refer to "diminishing returns". The actual gameplay difference in a 300% strength build to a 310% strength built on mirage or chroma is minimal. It is not a 10% difference it is an increase of mere 3%. Especially in regards to how the current system of armor reduction works.

Edited August 16, 2019 by K3RB3RUS