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Inaros Rework - Easy Changes

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12 hours ago, Shaburanigud said:

And IMO, the flaws in Inaros is not minor.

As one of the most uninteractive frames, I do think he needs some improvements.
Especially when half of his kit is almost never seen in normal gameplay. And the other half he does uses is rarely noticed by his teammates if at all.

And thus, I suggest that Inaros does need some improvements and minor reworks. Preferably around when he gets his prime variant.

 

That's exactly what I'm going for. None of the changes are forced either like "Synergy" can often be. You can play him exactly the same if you want. Just more options are open with some of these tweaks. Far as his dying passive. Secondary mods help it scale further but it's still kinda stuck after a point. Which is fine so that could work.

Nidus also gets stuck after a point. ie If you die twice in 5 minutes with Nidus his DPS drops like a rock and he starts taking more damage, higher chance of dying yet again and it turns into a spiral. If you're Solo Nidus' passive is technically his revives.  Unlimited long as you don't proc it too often in a short span since if you actually Revive around lvl 300+ you're probably done. Nekros has the same situation since he loses his summon list when he revives. It's possible to make a come back but unlikely.

I don't want to give Inaros a Nidus 2.0 passive but scaling past lvl 100 Armor would be nice.

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17 hours ago, Xzorn said:

 

Depends. Not all eHP is created equal.

Armor based eHP like Inaros is the least reliable. Nidus and Trinity can actually take lvl 800 bricks to the face. Not on MoT of course but with normal damage modifiers while Inaros gets killed by lvl 165 Nullifiers in 4 shots with 90% Adaptation thanks to Puncture double dips. Rhino by comparison can take 50 shots before Iron Skin drops. Inaros has very fast recovery but his eHP isn't very high. He doesn't deal with burst well and so after counting his eHP I just decided it was better to rely on his CC for a long run.

The choice of MoT was just because I went CC. It's like Volt on MoT vs a normal mission. Doesn't actually matter since he's not getting hit but looks more impressive. Chroma was actually kinda squishy even when Vex was Multiplicative since it was Armor based. Nidus came beefier out of the box. Of course Trinity and Rhino. Now both Chroma and Inaros get beaten by Trinity 188k, Rhino 120-200k, Nidus 100k, Baruuk 100k, Nekros 70k, Even though Gara and Nova sit about 40k similar to Inaros and lower than Chroma 66k but will deal with more burst since they're not Armor based DR. Of course all this is before Adaptation and if you wana push on MoT just throw down an Ancient Healer.

Pretty much all Invis frames can go lvl 800+ which is why I don't use Trickery or usually play Invis frames for endurance runs. A player should already know going in they're going to be there for 3 hours+ however Inaros without Invis I wasn't sure. So I tried it. That's pretty much why I do long runs. To see if something works. I'm mostly going through this explanation to show I've played Inaros enough, understand his limitations and I've pushed others to compare with. I'm not trying to make him stronger since if you play him specific ways he's pushing lvl 800 like I mentioned. It's more taking that into consideration and allowing him more options.

Most players are fine with how tanky Inaros is and I don't mind because he still scales with CC. My goal is to improve the rather limited kit he has.

That is untrue about Inaros. Just tested it myself. Well at least my Inaros tanked a lot more, technically he could have tanked infinite depending on arcane grace. Even without arcane grace, it took 7 hits from a level 165 nullifier (10 hits from a corrupted oddly) starting at 0% adaptation all without grace. 6 shots with 0 arcanes. Do note I use a rank 4 adaptation as Inaros and any other tank do not require a full one. Where do you get that Inaros can only tank 4 shots with 90%?

Note, Trinity 4 only provides 75% DR max, where as Gara sits at 90% DR, so also curious how you are managing to get more EHP on trin than gara. Are you using an old online EHP calc? Are you sure you are not using the old bless values for that calculation? My tank trin can't even tank half the number of shots that my inaros can in the same situation. Though it is an old raiding Trin that has been collecting dust.

You are missing my point, at some point EHP is quite literally worthless. I never said Inaros was the tankiest, that easily goes to Nidus and it has nothing to do with his EHP but everything about his easily renewed death gates. However what makes Inaros unique is that his bulk in not reliant on any abilities. All those other frames you mentioned, the moment they have 1 ability blocked whether by nullifier bubble, disruption, running out of energy, falling into a pit, or even just forgetting to recast, they are insanely squishy. Inaros? He has enough regen and naturally high EHP to be perfectly fine standing in a bubble.

Your previous statement claimed that you wanted to make him better at all levels, but if the only example you can give is against level 800 enemies, then I don't think that holds true. I don't think you have played Inaros enough or have a strong understanding. Even more so if your Inaros can only tank 4 level 165 nullifier shots. I'm still trying to find a case where I get 4 shotted by a level 165 nullifier and the only way I can find is by removing arcane grace and guardian and other mods. My inaros doesn't even use quick thinking either.

Here is what you haven't considered, and this is something a lot of people never consider in tons of games. At what point exactly does a difference become the deciding factor? Inaros's bulk and high regen alone, no skills absolutely necessary mind you, allow me to casually outlast everyone except a nidus clanmate that I play with all the time. If the EHP difference is only apparently at level 800, then I don't think that should be a focus of your changes. You are free to add me so we can compare builds. I want to know how I can tank twice as much as you claimed even starting from a worse position.

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21 hours ago, Shaburanigud said:

I agree, Inaros truly is one of the strongest frames
But That doesn't mean he doesn't have his flaws. This thread doesn't claim he should get a rework before Ember/Frost/ or nay other less performing ones.

Wukong, while was very boring, statistically performed great before his rework since he was immortal as well.
Chroma, despite being popular for needing a rework, is still one of the strongest Dmg frames as well as one of the tankiest

Yes, a Frame shouldn't get reworked because "He isn't the strongest", but he should get a rework if there are flaws to fix. However minor.

And IMO, the flaws in Inaros is not minor.
As one of the most uninteractive frames, I do think he needs some improvements.
Especially when half of his kit is almost never seen in normal gameplay. And the other half he does uses is rarely noticed by his teammates if at all.

And thus, I suggest that Inaros does need some improvements and minor reworks. Preferably around when he gets his prime variant.

Never claimed the OP said that Inaros should get buffed before others. What I did point out that with the example he gave, there are far more frames that struggle far more. So I was questioning his reasoning as it seems most people here have a flawed idea of Inaros and his capabilities.

Pre-rework wukong was immortal, however his issue wasn't with his bulk. His issues were with the rest of his kit. They ended up making him less tanky.

Chroma still is far less tanky and damaging than he once was. These are not his issues, his issues are that his 1, 4, and passive are incredibly underwhelming or simply completely ignored.

That's my point though, its your opinion. What the OP is trying to argue, at least when talking to me, is that his "EHP" is low. In that regard, I do not find that a flaw.

What you call uninteractive is not a product of Inaros, its a product of the meta. That is CC has no real place anymore. I do not find Inaros to be purely uninteractive for that reason. When the situation calls for CC, I find that Inaros's skills are quite potent. Even his 3, which I will admit it costs too much for this current meta, has interactions with his 4 that drastically increase he area of control. Half the kit not being used is something I agree with and that is a concrete example of a flaw, unlike just saying "his ehp is low compared to other tanks". However half his kit not being used is not a flaw of the ability itself, its a flaw of the meta and some QoL issues. The meta revolves around kills per second. So you hit a group of enemies with your 4, and they die in 2 seconds because that is what everyone else is doing. Is that because the skill is bad? Not at all, rather its because other players are more focused on kills than requiring healing. Most players don't even know the difference between a target affected by 2 or 4. Nor do they have any other indication what they can do to a target affected by 2. So if an Inaros uses 2 on an enemy behind a wall, how does a player on the other side know? That issue is a transparency issue that can easily be fixed.

My suggestion is that what Inaros needs is not improvements and minor reworks. What he needs is some QoL changes to make his kit more transparent to his team and his abilities better explained. The kit itself simply does not fit in a kills/second rules all meta and should not be changed because of that. If the meta was more centered around CCing large groups of enemies, would Inaros still be considered flawed? I don't think so at all.

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@m0b1us1 Spawn 3 so there is no reload delay. They don't all shoot at once. They're like Bombards where only one shoots at a time but it increases the burst damage by removing any reload animations. It's just a Burst damage test I do with a lot of frames since around lvl 300 they will be doing similar with one shot.

I do all my own eHP calcs by hand. This is my Trinity:

Spoiler

Trinity Abating Link Tank Hybrid
Blessing + Link
100 * 0.25 = 25
25 * 0.25 = 6.25 / 100 = 0.0625 (93.75%)

Armor + Arcane Guardian x2
15 + 600 + 600 = 1,215
1,215 / ( 1,215 + 300) = 0.802

Health DR
100 * 0.0625 = 6.25
6.25 * (1 - 0.802) = 1.2375 / 100 = 0.012375
= 98.76% DR

QT
450 / (1 - 0.9375) = 7,200
740 / (1 - 0.9875) = 59,200
1,531.2 / (1 - 0.9875) = 122,495

Total eHP
7,200 + 59,200 + 122,495 = 188,895 eHP

 

8 hours ago, m0b1us1 said:

You are missing my point, at some point EHP is quite literally worthless.

It's not though. That's the point I'm trying to make. Least not in groups and for Solo some frames will start to plateau in damage output the same time they start taking too much damage making a good ratio. Take that Trinity I just showed. Add a Gara to the group then add an Ancient Healer. 188,895 / (1- 0.9) = 1,888,895 then Ancient 1,888,895 / (1 - 0/9) = 18,889,500. 18 Million eHP by comparison a lvl 9,999 Bombard rocket does 4 million damage. Two frames as the cornerstone to a group and you can make a team able to take hits from the highest level enemies in the game.... This is all before Adaptation.

The eHP difference is apparent at all levels. Players just don't notice it and that's fine. I'm not hating on Inaro's eHP. I'm trying to make his skills worth using. Elective being the primary goal so players who enjoy just passive regen / tank and smacking things with a melee weapon can continue to do so.

I promise when it comes to math and mechanics of this game I know what I'm doing. No, I don't play Inaros much anymore. I haven't since that test run. I do that with a lot of frames. I find their best option push them then move on. Esp when the frame is so limited in it's options and there are better options IMO. I simply want to help Inaros' kit work well. It's all there already and it would work well if not for some walls put up for no reason.

I've posted these a few times but...

Spoiler

4 Hits

45 Hits

23 Hits

 

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Posted (edited)

The proposed changes sound really good, especially the charge speed mechanic for his 4.

Don't think they'll look at him till his prime comes around though.

1 hour ago, Xzorn said:

I've posted these a few times but...

  Reveal hidden contents

4 Hits

45 Hits

23 Hits

 

I don't quite get the comparison. Is it trying to show that armor is worse than infinite scaling mechanics, or dmg resistance + quick thinking?

You should show the builds for the frames on videos like this, since there's a lot happening in the background that can create a lot of bias.

Edit: Didn't realize Health Conversion on Rhino was viable. : D

Is it pretty much a permanent +1350 armor buff if they don't get through Iron Skin?  How do you get health orbs normally in a mission?

Edited by Zectico

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1 hour ago, Zectico said:

The proposed changes sound really good, especially the charge speed mechanic for his 4.

Don't think they'll look at him till his prime comes around though.

I don't quite get the comparison. Is it trying to show that armor is worse than infinite scaling mechanics, or dmg resistance + quick thinking?

You should show the builds for the frames on videos like this, since there's a lot happening in the background that can create a lot of bias.

Edit: Didn't realize Health Conversion on Rhino was viable. : D

Is it pretty much a permanent +1350 armor buff if they don't get through Iron Skin?  How do you get health orbs normally in a mission?

 

Thank you. I'm betting on his Prime window as well but I hope something happens at least.

The videos were originally to show how Armor based mitigation is inferior to Mitigation buffs due to the way positive damage modifiers interact with armor. ie Puncture damage not only gets +50% damage against Ferrite (Warframe Armor) but also reduces your armor value by 50%. It wasn't intended for this Topic. Just something I used in the past as a testing platform and to spread awareness for the community that Armor as a defensive solution is faulty.

QT also has a flat conversion rate that cannot be reduced by positive modifiers. It's always 58.3% DR no matter what. Just as Nova's 1st ability is always a set value or Gara is always 90%. Puncture / Toxic cannot touch that reduction value. In case of Rhino's Iron Skin he still gets the +50% modifiers but since his skin is not Armor but a health pool it's also not subject to the double dip Armor reduction.

I mentioned earlier not all eHP is created equal and those videos are kinda an example of what I mean. Nova has slightly less eHP than Inaros.

Yea, Health Conversion is amazing on Rhino, Avg Iron Skin of 120k easy. You can go even more silly and use Ultimatum x2 or pull enemies in to break 200k. Use Synth Deconstruct and Synth Fiber to gain Health orb stacks. Synth Fiber will allow you to pick up orbs even if you're max health while Deconstruct will produce them quickly. Long as you don't take actual health damage you will keep your stacks and well... with a build like that if you take actual health damage he's dead anyways.

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1 hour ago, Zectico said:

Is it pretty much a permanent +1350 armor buff if they don't get through Iron Skin?  How do you get health orbs normally in a mission?

Synth Fiber and Synth Deconstruct. Xzorn told me HC was good for Rhino but i had to find a way to make it consistent...well, i found. 

Synth Fiber will enable for you to pick Health Orbs even at full health because your sentinel will get a buff from it. Synth Deconstruct will give you a 25% chance to drop Health Orbs wherever your pet helps you kill an enemy.  

Only works for sentinels though, i use Djinn with Reawaken for high level content.

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Posted (edited)
7 minutes ago, Xzorn said:

 

Thank you. I'm betting on his Prime window as well but I hope something happens at least.

The videos were originally to show how Armor based mitigation is inferior to Mitigation buffs due to the way positive damage modifiers interact with armor. ie Puncture damage not only gets +50% damage against Ferrite (Warframe Armor) but also reduces your armor value by 50%. It wasn't intended for this Topic. Just something I used in the past as a testing platform and to spread awareness for the community that Armor as a defensive solution is faulty.

QT also has a flat conversion rate that cannot be reduced by positive modifiers. It's always 58.3% DR no matter what. Just as Nova's 1st ability is always a set value or Gara is always 90%. Puncture / Toxic cannot touch that reduction value. In case of Rhino's Iron Skin he still gets the +50% modifiers but since his skin is not Armor but a health pool it's also not subject to the double dip Armor reduction.

I mentioned earlier not all eHP is created equal and those videos are kinda an example of what I mean. Nova has slightly less eHP than Inaros.

Yea, Health Conversion is amazing on Rhino, Avg Iron Skin of 120k easy. You can go even more silly and use Ultimatum x2 or pull enemies in to break 200k. Use Synth Deconstruct and Synth Fiber to gain Health orb stacks. Synth Fiber will allow you to pick up orbs even if you're max health while Deconstruct will produce them quickly. Long as you don't take actual health damage you will keep your stacks and well... with a build like that if you take actual health damage he's dead anyways.

Just use Rolling Guard, with this build you won't need Steel Fiber and all these useless armor mods because you stack much more with Ironclad. So it opens space for Rolling Guard, you'll never be vulnerable again.  

Low Iron Skin: Charge > Roll > Deactivate Iron Skin > Activate it again.

Edited by (XB1)XG1anBl4derX

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6 minutes ago, (XB1)XG1anBl4derX said:

Just use Rolling Guard, with this build you won't need Steel Fiber and all these useless armor mods because you stack much more with Ironclad. So it opens space for Rolling Guard, you'll never be vulnerable again.  

Low Iron Skin: Charge > Roll > Deactivate Iron Skin > Activate it again.

 

Yea or you can stomp and jump + re-apply. Fairly safe. Rolling guard is the 100% method for sure.

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Scarab Swarm armor increase should be removed, instead, it should give you straight up damage reduction. Something like 50-75%. 

If the purpose is to make him as good as Trinity.

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Cast speed is abysmal on Inaros. That's my main gripe.
His 1 and 3 are good. His 2 and 4 are still sluggish with Natural Talent and Speed Drift.

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22 hours ago, kapn655321 said:

Cast speed is abysmal on Inaros. That's my main gripe.
His 1 and 3 are good. His 2 and 4 are still sluggish with Natural Talent and Speed Drift.

 

Yea, attempted to help with that. Least with his 4th. It will no longer halt movement thought the cast time is the same it should feel better and the charge time was changed. His Devour I felt should keep a similar animation time to using a CL dagger execute attack since you're effectively doing that with these changes. You'll also be able to affect multiple Devoured enemies at once and you get the bonus of a not-as-pointless Sand Shadow. Overall more worth the cast time.

If poor Equinox can't get some re-cast / cast love. Not sure Inaros will. Ugh I hate casting her 3rd every time I switch.

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6 hours ago, Xzorn said:

able to affect multiple Devoured enemies at once

Yes, please.

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