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(PS4)Black-Cat-Jinx

You need to fix your net code and content migration.

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Far too much emphasis is being put on the initial host which is being used to troll other players by abusive players.

For one, there's an extremely high chance, approximately 79%, that your session will crash if a troll quits mid mission robbing you of all progress which can constitute a significant loss. For instance you might get a gold drop from a survival rift, and the host will just quit in order to strongly bias the chance of all players losing that drop. Why? Just to be a jerk.

Also hosting trolls will quit when "random bosses" like stalker or other hunters start to spawn, and the migration process prevents that random boss from loading in, depriving other players of getting to combat that boss, and also losing any rewards that may have dropped. 

Either you need to expand your server side hosting which will on the whole be better for all players, or you need to have content hosted by more than one peer, or, what ever you need to do, just fix it. This has been going on for years, and it's time you did something about your hosting. If you have too much on your plate, slow down, and fix whats wrong with the game before you add more to it. Hosting needs to be fixed. Melee needs to be fixed, you've been chewing on this for a while. SWALLOW. Drink something. Then go back for more.

Seriously guys no other game of this level has these problems. Fix your network issues and then get back to creating more content. It's been SEVEN YEARS and this is still a problem.

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Posted (edited)

i don't think the landscape looks quite as you describe. if that many Sessions are failing to migrate for you, that sounds like a call for some troubleshooting, something isn't right.

Edited by taiiat
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2 minutes ago, taiiat said:

i don't think the landscape looks quite as you describe. if that many Sessions are failing to migrate for you, that sounds like a call for some troubleshooting, something isn't right.

Considering that the problem is De's coding, and this IS the feedback forum, I am contacting tech support. Because this is a problem being created by the way they handle migration, it is not a client side problem.

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"Fix your netcode" would be an instant ignore if I was developing a game and reading feedback on it.

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Posted (edited)
26 minutes ago, (PS4)Black-Cat-Jinx said:

Considering that the problem is De's coding, and this IS the feedback forum, I am contacting tech support. Because this is a problem being created by the way they handle migration, it is not a client side problem.

The situation you're describing is not universal.  I'm certainly not getting anything even close to 80% disconnect on host migrations, and even when I do run into trouble, I can typically use reconnect to squad without any issue.  

You really should do some troubleshooting, because it's not that way for everyone.  Is it possible it's a problem with DE's netcode?  Sure.  Is it more likely to be DE's code then any other possibility?  Since you haven't given any rationale or supporting evidence for it to be a solely netcode problem, I'm going to have to say No.

Edited by Phatose
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il y a 38 minutes, (PS4)Black-Cat-Jinx a dit :

Far too much emphasis is being put on the initial host which is being used to troll other players by abusive players.

For one, there's an extremely high chance, approximately 79%, that your session will crash if a troll quits mid mission robbing you of all progress which can constitute a significant loss. For instance you might get a gold drop from a survival rift, and the host will just quit in order to strongly bias the chance of all players losing that drop. Why? Just to be a jerk.

 Also hosting trolls will quit when "random bosses" like stalker or other hunters start to spawn, and the migration process prevents that random boss from loading in, depriving other players of getting to combat that boss, and also losing any rewards that may have dropped. 

Either you need to expand your server side hosting which will on the whole be better for all players, or you need to have content hosted by more than one peer, or, what ever you need to do, just fix it. This has been going on for years, and it's time you did something about your hosting. If you have too much on your plate, slow down, and fix whats wrong with the game before you add more to it. Hosting needs to be fixed. Melee needs to be fixed, you've been chewing on this for a while. SWALLOW. Drink something. Then go back for more.

Seriously guys no other game of this level has these problems. Fix your network issues and then get back to creating more content. It's been SEVEN YEARS and this is still a problem.

Well P2P has been there for 6 years (not 7) and it isn't even 6 years old for PS4.

Either PS4 community is like extremely terrible in comparison with our PC community or you have a connection problem on your side, with your modem, or it's a PS4 problem, not everything is related to coding in general, we do have an option to limitate ping on pc, i would recommend you to reduce it as much as you can while still getting people.

 

You Have no idea what you're talking about, Network teams and content creating team aren't the same people, it might be confusing if you've no idea how development works but hey whatvever i guess. And they're working on melee, guess what you can't replace a system and balance it in a day.

 

This is a free to play games, most other games of this levels are either more popular of Pay to play, or fee to pay with this rise of "live services"

I'm pretty sure with the way you speak you didn't even bother to check on your side!

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All I'm really hearing here is "we all know it's a problem, the only valid argument we can make is that while it happens probably thousands of times around the world every day as long as it doesn't happen to us specifically we don't want DE to actually fix it."

Oh and everyone continues to ignore that hosts can troll other players by shutting down spawns of hunters just by leaving, just to be hateful. At the very least they could fix it so that doesn't happen. I did the assassination for mutagen masses. Today alone, I've been playing and had Stalker try to spawn in and twice had the host quit to prevent the stalker from fully loading by initiating migration. 

You know what. If people really need an explanation as to why, after over half a decade, this should have been fixed by now, just for quality of life if nothing else, it really isn't worth my time. This isn't something that should need to be explained. 

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Nice attitude OP. Like most people said here, it's a combination of the netcode and each users hardware and internet connection. But sure, blow up and throw a fit. You're beyond help. 

 

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Posted (edited)

I think you're absolutely right OP, but I think the word "fix" is not right. The problem is not that the network code is defective or contains errors: the problem, in my opinion, is the "philosophy" of P2P design with which Warframe has been built since its inception. This network technology has allowed [DE] saves extraordinary costs on servers, but it has also been the cause of all limitations and all current network-related problems. To cite two:

1. "Open world" maps limited to 4 players.
2. HOST dependent on the player (cause of the problems that you cite in your thread).

Maybe the word is not "fix" It is "change." A massive network restructuring would be needed, and I don't think that will ever come.

Edited by Awazx
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7 hours ago, (PS4)Black-Cat-Jinx said:

All I'm really hearing here is "we all know it's a problem, the only valid argument we can make is that while it happens probably thousands of times around the world every day as long as it doesn't happen to us specifically we don't want DE to actually fix it."

or, if what you described was such a large problem as you describe (almost every single Mission for every single Player).... it would be common knowledge and be a big problem since the game wouldn't be playable.
soooooooooooooooooooooo it can be pretty easily determined that this isn't the case since the game is actually playable and the Forums aren't burning down over that basically every Mission explodes.

7 minutes ago, Awazx said:

"Open world" maps limited to 4 players

is that even a problem or a limitation. what use would more Players have anyways. one Player can already do the entire Mission as it is, what are more than the current limit useful for?
(not to mention that Player Count is the overall #1 defining factor of hardware requirements in MP games)

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4 minutes ago, Awazx said:

I think you're absolutely right OP, but I think the word "fix" is not right. The problem is not that the network code is defective or contains errors: the problem, in my opinion, is the "philosophy" of P2P design with which Warframe has been built since its inception. This network technology has allowed [DE] saves extraordinary costs on servers, but it has also been the cause of all limitations and all current network-related problems. To cite two:

1. "Open world" maps limited to 4 players.
2. HOST dependent on the player (cause of the problems that you cite in your thread).

Maybe the word is not "fix" It is "change." A massive network restructuring would be needed, and I don't think that will ever come.

Agreement

Especially on the Open World maps just re-using the dated 4-player squad networking model.

an 'open' world with just 4 is incredibly limited.

When I hear a game claim to have "Open Worlds"; I expect that I'll be able to wander around and different random(non-squad) players will become visible to me based on proximity, and that we can all be doing separate activities without interference but also have the opportunity to cooperate when common objectives appear -see Destiny and 'Public Events'.

obviously having a single 'host' determine the entire world state goes against this; especially when that host leaving has the potential to crash the world for everyone else.

Warframe's claim of "open worlds" does not meet my expectations of the gaming industry standard of Open Worlds.

The fact that when players want to go Fishing or Mining or Conservation; they switch to Solo Mode is very telling.

 

I also believe that DE will never do the networking rework needed to support that kind of gameplay.

afaik, all of Warframe's current networking systems were written by a single programmer. -just 1 network specialist back when Warframe was much smaller and less ambitious. the game has grown too far now and they've coded themselves into a corner so to speak...

There's also the question of motivation; current marketing model seems to be focused on selling what DE calls 'new content' -meaning Reskins, Storyboards, etc -basically graphic artist resources that work within the existing framework but don't change it.

Which makes sense since just adding data content is simpler than altering major parts of base code. and the players continue to buy it up....

Best use of development time versus profit. As long as that model remains profitable, DE has no reason to invest elsewhere.

 

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Posted (edited)

Fully agree. The reason I now play mostly solo, and expecting future content to be accessible that way. 

When I go online, I abort the mission multiple times until I am hosting so that I can't be affected by this stupid system.

Edited by (XB1)GaussPrime

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I've mentioned this in the past but an opt out of hosting option along with a host sync every 20 minutes within an online mission would mitigate a lot of item loss due to disconnects. It shouldn't really put any notable strain on the servers either. Players spamming a mission every 5 minutes probably does more.

Simply use a cache pool for all players in a current mission and when the mission is complete those items are rewarded as normal. This way it's not all on the host and a server migration can at the very least pickup from the last cached point from the previous host update.

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15 hours ago, (PS4)Black-Cat-Jinx said:

and this IS the feedback forum

It is?

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5 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

It is?

indubitably good sir~ why what other section could it possibly be? 

 

.....oh~

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vor 5 Stunden schrieb Xzorn:

I've mentioned this in the past but an opt out of hosting option along with a host sync every 20 minutes within an online mission would mitigate a lot of item loss due to disconnects. It shouldn't really put any notable strain on the servers either. Players spamming a mission every 5 minutes probably does more.

Simply use a cache pool for all players in a current mission and when the mission is complete those items are rewarded as normal. This way it's not all on the host and a server migration can at the very least pickup from the last cached point from the previous host update.

Wait, someone with a brain that also thinks in 2019 it shouldn't be a thing to constantly lose rewards?

Miracles!

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4 hours ago, DeMonkey said:

It is?

In today's society, facts does not matter. 

Merely a sense of conviction. If I genuinely believe this thread is for feedback, you are wrong. 

It's not me, it's you. 

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11 minutes ago, sleepychewbacca said:

In today's society, facts does not matter. 

Merely a sense of conviction. If I genuinely believe this thread is for feedback, you are wrong. 

It's not me, it's you. 

Curses. I have been defeated, someone has finally out argued me.

That's it, I'm retiring from arguing, Chewbacca is your new lord and saviour.

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1 hour ago, DeMonkey said:

Curses. I have been defeated, someone has finally out argued me.

That's it, I'm retiring from arguing, Chewbacca is your new lord and saviour.

Pls don't. 

Together we can overcome the plebians who think that GD = Feedback. So uncivilised. 

Dont abandon me DeMonkey, you're my only hope. 

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Posted (edited)
13 minutes ago, sleepychewbacca said:

Pls don't. 

Together we can overcome the plebians who think that GD = Feedback. So uncivilised. 

Dont abandon me DeMonkey, you're my only hope. 

tenor.gif

You're right, but there's no saving some people. Pretty sure I've argued with OP on this exact point before, and even quoted official statements to no avail.

I do love official statements, I'd love them even more though if DE unhid them so that people might actually read them.

Edited by DeMonkey
I'm not drunk, I promise.

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This world does not revolve around you my friend. You are free to make your own game, with your own servers and your own player base. I suggest you get to it, or accept the facts

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On 2019-08-16 at 2:25 PM, (PS4)Black-Cat-Jinx said:

For instance you might get a gold drop from a survival rift, and the host will just quit in order to strongly bias the chance of all players losing that drop. Why? Just to be a jerk.

I'm not sure if you are suggesting that other people are doing this to you or saying that this is what you are doing to others. Because it's hard to tell why a catastrophic failure is happening, unless you are the one causing it. 

Also that 79% seems a bit high. You may want to take a look at your local and regional network. 

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19 hours ago, Xzorn said:

I've mentioned this in the past but an opt out of hosting option along with a host sync every 20 minutes within an online mission would mitigate a lot of item loss due to disconnects. It shouldn't really put any notable strain on the servers either. Players spamming a mission every 5 minutes probably does more.

Simply use a cache pool for all players in a current mission and when the mission is complete those items are rewarded as normal. This way it's not all on the host and a server migration can at the very least pickup from the last cached point from the previous host update.

People both here and on Reddit have asked about this many, many times. As you've pointed out it wouldn't be a burden to cache the rewards every completed 5 waves for defense, every 5 mins for survival, etc., so that if the host is lost rewards won't be. DE could even cache it to each player's system considering that at least some of that already goes on anyway. I don't care which way they undertake it just as long as they do so because this far into the game it's ridiculous to lose progress the way we do at times, especially when we're talking about longer/endurance missions.

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Posted (edited)

eh I get some S#&$ty host migrations but its usually 1 out of 100 times that happens to me. Im sure there are some locations in the world where it would happen way more frequently but sadly I doubt the tiny minority gonna convince DE to improve the netcode for the small 0.003% of players.(exaggerated number to say that most players wont get more then 1 in 100 bad host migrations.)

Edited by (XB1)Dex Xean

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