Revert changes to Limbo

[DCaedus]

Limbo Prime has been out for a while, and all the euphoria and hype that came with it has wore down.

Can we have Limbo the way it was before?

I have been playing Limbo for a long time before it's prime got out, and it has been one of my favourite frames for a long time, up until it's prime got released. With the changes that came with it Limbo has gone from being a complex frame with some pretty unique playstyle to a plain boring and generic frame.

It's just too simple. Where is the fun in playing Limbo anymore, you just freeze enemies and shoot them one by one, that's pretty boring imo.

Freezing dozens of bullets and projectiles mid-flight to finally release them all at once killing all the enemies in stasis was hella fun, and one of the main aspects of playing Limbo. It had lots of fun interactions with different kinds of weapons too, but that is no more, and now Limbo is just simple and boring.

I tried to like the new Limbo, I really did, but it's just boring, there's barely any fun in playing it anymore.

And I know I will get a lot of hate and salt from people who didn't like the old Limbo because "it was annoying, or bad, or too much troll", but it never was. Limbo was a perfectly good frame all along before it's Prime got released and there was no need to change it whatsoever. People only hated it so much because no one ever bothered figuring out how it worked. Because "UgH wHy My BuLlEtS dOn'T mOvE wOrSe FrAmE dE fIx It" not knowing there was a bullet limit all along and if you just kept shooting Stasis would end and all the bullets would resume their trajectory. Or that abilities could kill enemies between dimensions. But yeah, no one cares, we just want Limbo removed because "it's a terrible frame".

If anything, what was wrong with Limbo is how early in the game players were able to acquire it, Limbo was far too complex of a frame to be handled properly by new players, and yes, it can be annoying in the wrong hands, but that's not because it was a bad warframe, it was because it was used wrong, and on top of it no one ever bothered figuring out on the slightest how it worked.

And on top of that Limbo gets completely screwed up by nullifiers, yes, yes, I know.. All the frames are... Or that's the reason of nullifiers... or whatever you have to say about it, but there is no frame in the game that gets screwed by nullifiers so bad as Limbo. So can we at least have nullifiers not screw Limbo's abilities so bad? Why not fix that since you were going to nerf Limbo anyway when it's Prime got released..

And I know, oh how I know I will get salt from this post... As I always have from playing Limbo in the past, even when I was doing a good job and people just hate it because "uGh I cAnT kIlL sTuFf WoRsE fRaMe!!!111".

But it is what it is. Limbo is a bad Warframe as it stands right now, it's boring and way too simple, and there is no way of using it properly if there is going to be nullifiers around, other than building 34% range and using it as an extra dimensional Frost. And I don't care what anyone says because oh man, I can already feel the hate I'm going to get as I'm typing this... So don't waste your time commenting that Limbo was bad, or annoying, or troll or how much you hate it because "uGh I cAnT kIlL sTuFf!!!!1111". I'm not going to respond any of the many hate comments I know I am going to get, Limbo is boring right now, and it was better before it's prime was released.

Edited August 17, 2019 by D_Caedus

[Infirito]

Tbh, don't really care about freezing bullets, my problem with the rework is butchered stasis combo due to halved stasis duration.

How it was before: You cast cata, you cast stasis and you're safe in the bubble. When timer's about to run out, you cast surge. Cata runs out, surging enemies around you with the remaining duration on stasis. You're still safe. After enemies are surged you recast cata, at that point stasis runs out and enemies get knocked down, giving you enough time to set stasis again and repeat the combo. At no point in this combo you were exposed to potential oneshots.

Now, with halved stasis, you'll either need to recast the whole thing based on stasis' duration, effectively halving the duration of 3 skills instead of 1, or you'll have to risk getting oneshoted at higher levels every time you need to recast stasis. Alternatively you'll need to waste a slot on rolling guard and that's an Arbitrations' drop, new players won't have that anyways.

 

That said, DE's not gonna change it back. WF drew a lot more new players, a lot of those players are the type that caused the whole thing in the first place, so they'll just keep yelling "Magic man bad!"

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

I wouldn’t mind having stasis get back 25% of its duration, but having the bullets freezing return is a big no from me.

[AndouRaiton]

I've said this like 3 or so times on the forum on other posts:

They could just add the bullet freeze back as part of a stasis augment that affected only your bullets and increased stasis' duration by  like 25% at max rank. This way everyone would be happy, you can freeze bullets again and the teammates don't have to worry about being held back.

You may say "They'll just kill everything before i unfreeze my bullets" but that's the price you pay

[DCaedus]

3 minutes ago, AndouRaiton said:

I've said this like 3 or so times on the forum on other posts:

They could just add the bullet freeze back as part of a stasis augment that affected only your bullets and increased stasis' duration by  like 25% at max rank. This way everyone would be happy, you can freeze bullets again and the teammates don't have to worry about being held back.

You may say "They'll just kill everything before i unfreeze my bullets" but that's the price you pay

That is actually a very good idea.

[Sintag]

25 minutes ago, D_Caedus said:

Freezing dozens of bullets and projectiles mid-flight to finally release them all at once killing all the enemies in stasis was hella fun, and one of the main aspects of playing Limbo. It had lots of fun interactions with different kinds of weapons too, but that is no more, and now Limbo is just simple and boring.

 

Until it delayed damage and caused mass outbreaks of hatred against Limbo users because they panicked, cast Stasis, and locked their trigger-happy teammates' projectiles as well, to the point where people purposely 'crashed' the Rift.  Stasis V1 was a fun idea bogged down by massive potential, purposely or otherwise, to grief others, and everyone knew this.

27 minutes ago, D_Caedus said:

If anything, what was wrong with Limbo is how early in the game players were able to acquire it, Limbo was far too complex of a frame to be handled properly by new players, and yes, it can be annoying in the wrong hands, but that's not because it was a bad warframe, it was because it was used wrong, and on top of it no one ever bothered figuring out on the slightest how it worked.

 

There's a wiki out there, with an entire page dedicated solely to how the Rift Plane functions.  Limbo's entirely figured out, but the game does a frankly horrible job (as usual, really) of explaining how he works to you, the player.  And while a Frost used wrong is irritating but not this horrible monster (except if you're using an Ogris, then that Frost is actually Satan), a Limbo used wrong is a major showstopper, and was worse before his rework.

30 minutes ago, D_Caedus said:

 And on top of that Limbo gets completely screwed up by nullifiers, yes, yes, I know.. All the frames are... Or that's the reason of nullifiers... or whatever you have to say about it, but there is no frame in the game that gets screwed by nullifiers so bad as Limbo. So can we at least have nullifiers not screw Limbo's abilities so bad? Why not fix that since you were going to nerf Limbo anyway when it's Prime got released..

[laughs in Loki, Frost, Gara, Saryn, Chroma, and Valkyr with damage taken in Hysteria]

35 minutes ago, D_Caedus said:

But it is what it is. Limbo is a bad Warframe as it stands right now, it's boring and way too simple, and there is no way of using it properly if there is going to be nullifiers around, other than building 34% range and using it as an extra dimensional Frost. And I don't care what anyone says because oh man, I can already feel the hate I'm going to get as I'm typing this... So don't waste your time commenting that Limbo was bad, or annoying, or troll or how much you hate it because "uGh I cAnT kIlL sTuFf!!!!1111". I'm not going to respond any of the many hate comments I know I am going to get, Limbo is boring right now, and it was better before it's prime was released.

To you.  To me, he was an unfortunate wellspring of hate purely out of people using him to mess with the flow of the game, either by consistently Banishing the last target needed to get the next wave started, Stasis'ing everyone's projectiles permanently, and otherwise making life for the entire rest of the team a complete pain in the neck.  Even playing him responsibly (only using Stasis when needed, Banishing high-priority targets as an inter-dimensional assassin, which is something I rue the loss of, using Cata on the Defense but lowering the range somewhat) I still got flamed by association with 'DROP A CATA, POP A STASIS, CRACK A COLD ONE, RACK UP THE AFK FARMING' Limbos.  And even then, other Frames just did any job Limbo could do, better, without being associated with 'forcing me to change my playstyle all the damn time to account for a power that I have no idea if it's active or not, up to and including potentially neutering 3/4ths of my loadout at a whim'.

In short, Stasis V1 might have been fun for you, but it was suffering for everyone else, and I'm kinda glad to see it simplified to 'enemies cannot move or shoot, you guys can'.

[Snydrex]

Look, I main Limbo. You can check my profile and everything.

With that in mind, and all those hours played, I have to admit that freezing bullets, although part of his 'charm', was much more of an inconvenience then part of a 'fun' factor. When Lone_Dude said this:

44 minutes ago, Lone_Dude said:

Imagine how much FUN people have when their guns suddenly don't work inside of your damn bubble. Imagine how much FUN people have when they have to stop and realize "oh yeah, stasis does this stupid thing where I have to switch up my playstyle again in order to actually do something". Imagine how much fun they have when their explosive projectiles become even more deadly because they stopped mid air somewhere and can detonate whenever the Limbo player wants. imagine how much FUN these people will have, every time they see a Limbo in their squad.

Who is more important, they, or you? How does your fun beat the annoyance of 3 other players in your squad? I say that as someone who doesn't care much about getting TOP KEELS per mission, I usually just chill when Limbo puts up his Cata-Stasis combo and let him or other players do the job. And I certainly understand the appeal of ZA WARUDO-like Cata from back in the day when you had a bunch of projectiles floating in the air, waiting to be released. But it didn't work, because aside from you there are 3 other damn people playing and they might NOT be interested in their weapons having a MINUTE LONG DELAY for dealing damage, depending on what mood the Limbo is in.

Despite the cynicism, He summed up the problem very, very well from the perspective of someone who had to deal with stasis in the past. Please don't ignore what he has to say with "Yep, this is what I mean, he doesn't know anything". Why SHOULD people have to build themselves and their warframes around us, instead of alongside us?

The power generally slowed games down, despite being 'fun'. The best CC is death, after all. Although, I do have a mini-list of little Limbo problems and gripes that I shouldn't rant about here, I have to say that Stasis was overall, very good for trolling. And the funny part is, I never intentionally trolled anyone, and yet it kept happening. They usually got mad, and rightfully so.

However, I do want the augment suggestion, only self-freeze application. Because despite what I just said, I have to admit, I do miss the bullet/projectile freeze. it was part of his charm. I don't think it should be -just- bullet freeze, though. It should also enhance his 2 in another way. But that's a topic for another time.

Edited August 17, 2019 by Snydrex

[Sintag]

Well yes, except no.  If Limbo had a Stasis up (and you had no way of knowing this), your guns effectively became worthless for dealing with immediate threats, so you had to run up and start swinging a sword.  Having options forcibly restricted by an ally, for a long period of time, isn't really good game design.  As Limbo is currently, I can be in the Rift without knowing 'ah great, my fully-kitted Tigris Prime/Vaykor Hek/Synoid Simulor/so on so forth is now useless', which I'd class as a marked improvement alone.  I don't have my options shut down because someone wanted to be DIO for a day and carelessly Cataclysm'd before popping the time stop.  It wasn't fun for me, it probably wasn't fun for the Limbo getting 'LIMBO STOP STASISING' or reading 'WHY DON'T MY GUNS WORK' in chat, it slowed the game's pace to a dead halt, and gave griefers a metric ton of ammo to shoot at everyone else.  When Limbo was in the party, you had to play by his rules, and his rules alone.  And that wasn't fun, especially if the Limbo in question either didn't know what he was doing (because, again, game has this problem with conveying information) or knew perfectly well what he was doing and enjoyed your suffering.

I do think an approach where the caster's projectiles stopped while everyone else's works in real time could work as an Augment, but unless it conferred some passive benefit to the Ability itself (Casting again only makes Limbo's projectiles move and it lasts until the end of the allotted duration?), I heavily doubt it'd see use because, hey, being able to shoot things that can't move is itself one hell of a buff.

tl;dr (and/or snubbing): Limbo forced everyone to change their playstyle on a whim, and that was plain bad game design.

 

Edited August 17, 2019 by Haldos
Removed hidden quote.

[ExcaliburUmbra]

1 hour ago, D_Caedus said:

Neither change your playstyle more than you do with how Limbo is currently.

With all due respect, this is false. Currently I can use my guns regardless of whether the Limbo is using Stasis. This was not the case with old Stasis, as it would prevent my bullets from hitting targets whenever it was up, forcing me to use melee or abilities to kill targets for the duration. 

The suggestion to “keep shooting” to reach the projectile/enemy limit of Stasis doesn’t help my case either. I prefer using guns over melee and abilities, with a focus on semi-automatic weapon such as Grinlok and Latron playstyle-wise. In order to reach the Stasis limit of 300, I’d have to click the fire button at least 100 times (assuming Split Chamber blesses me with every shot and a generous amount of frozen enemies). Alternatively I could bring a rapid-fire weapon solely for the purpose of breaking Stasis, but that would be an obvious playstyle change for me.

Plus imagine you’re playing Limbo in a pub, and some Tenno with a max fire-rate Kohm keeps breaking your Stasis shortly after you activate it. It’d be annoying at best, potentially game-ruining at worst. Imho the idea of abusing the Stasis limit is a poor solution to the issue as it wastes the Limbo’s energy, the teammate’s ammo, and everyone’s time.

The suggestion of an augment that affects the Limbo’s bullets only is what I believe to be the best compromise in this case, though honestly I feel he could use another rework.

Edited August 17, 2019 by FrostPrime

[DCaedus]

1 hour ago, Sintag said:

If Limbo had a Stasis up (and you had no way of knowing this)

So enemies randomly frozen everywhere is normal?..

1 hour ago, Sintag said:

your guns effectively became worthless for dealing with immediate threats, so you had to run up and start swinging a sword.

Except there is no "immediate threats" because enemies can't shoot you or harm you because they're frozen?..

[DCaedus]

27 minutes ago, FrostPrime said:

In order to reach the Stasis limit of 300, I’d have to click the fire button at least 100 times.

25 because there are 4 ppl shooting in a squad.

[(PSN)Jedi_Arts_]

10 hours ago, D_Caedus said:

Can we have Limbo the way it was before?

DE has way too much on their hands to bring an old problem back into the game.

Consider also that Limbo isn't even a Warframe in particularly dire need. Vauban, Ember, and Titania are still waiting for real reworks. Limbo stands solid in effectiveness as compared to a lot of Warframes. I do still have a few problems with him. But like I said, he's pretty low on the priority list. And the simple argument of being boring (purely as a matter of opinion) isn't enough to move him up the list, or risk old problems.

You can argue that the old Stasis was fine (it wasn't), but none of that changes how it was perceived as a big problem. Why would DE take a risk to reintroduce something with such a scorned reputation when they have so many other Warframes on the waiting list? DE doesn't usually bring old power functionality back out of nowhere.

Though I do want to express that I understand the sentiment of liking that old playstyle. It would probably be best to bring back some sort of projectile/time interaction in an entirely new Warframe instead. This way it could be completely re-imagined in a way that doesn't annoy your teammates. And also would hopefully provide more incentive for using the mechanic.

 

[(XBOX)LZonut]

On 2019-08-17 at 1:54 AM, Sintag said:

When Limbo was in the party, you had to play by his rules, and his rules alone.

No offense, this specific part sounds like it comes from a tragic backstory of someone who was wronged by Limbo, and came back to take his revenge in a anime version of the Index. An index anime sounds pretty cool actually.

[Sintag]

8 hours ago, (XB1)LordZonut said:

No offense, this specific part sounds like it comes from a tragic backstory of someone who was wronged by Limbo, and came back to take his revenge in a anime version of the Index. An index anime sounds pretty cool actually.

"Oh?  You're approaching me?  Rather than running away, you're coming right to me?"
"I can't get you with Cataclysm if I don't get closer."
"Oh ho!  Then come as close as you like!"

 

(I'm not at all sorry.)

[Pizzarugi]

On 2019-08-16 at 10:36 PM, D_Caedus said:

Freezing dozens of bullets and projectiles mid-flight to finally release them all at once killing all the enemies in stasis was hella fun, and one of the main aspects of playing Limbo. It had lots of fun interactions with different kinds of weapons too, but that is no more, and now Limbo is just simple and boring.

I can see this coming back as an augment that only works on Limbo. The reason it was removed was not because it was a bad gimmick, but because it froze everyone else's bullets if they were banished, forcing them to either unbanish themselves or melee or rely on abilities (RIP CC frames). Nobody likes having their gameplay taken from them because of someone else, especially if they have a tendency to grief the team.

You may argue Limbo is a high-skill frame, but that doesn't give its users an excuse to disrupt everyone else's experience.

Edited August 18, 2019 by Pizzarugi

[fr4gb4ll]

your problem is: you liked limbo the way it was before... many players did not though. it's a simple math equation, really: people playing old limbo <= people playing new limbo   ofc, the true numbers are only known by DE and afaik they not yet (or ever) shared them with us, but as far as i can see it in the day to day playing, far more people play limbo now than before and what's more important, is the higher level of toleranz toward limbo player. before, it was a frame for either diehards (like i guees you are one) and for a very limited set of mission parameters where he did shine (though never really was mandatory to). rest of the time, people didn't like having a limbo in the team. there still are people who dislike having him in the team, but thats usually stupid ones who can't adapt to his abilities.

as for the 'boring' effect, you'll that to every frame or weapon sooner or later - even the most 'complex' ones dulls after one mastered them for a while - and don't forget DE still seems to think that warframe is to be a 'casual' game... so don't expect they change something to 'dark souls'™ niveau (or, let it there if they, again, created something there ^^)

[Loza03]

3 hours ago, Sintag said:

"Oh?  You're approaching me?  Rather than running away, you're coming right to me?"
"I can't get you with Cataclysm if I don't get closer."
"Oh ho!  Then come as close as you like!"

 

(I'm not at all sorry.)

"EXCAL! THIS IS MY FINAL RENEWAL! RECIVE IT!

"Did you hear that? It sounded like... Oberon screaming."

"Yes, I heard it. Oh no - Oberon can't-!"

"OBEROOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOON!"

[AbstractLemons]

The problem with old Limbo is that Limbo had a lot of control over what his team mates could and couldn't do. Making cooperating with him a nightmare because he only favored power spam warframes. New Limbo can at the very least use cataclysm stasis combo without interfering with his team that much. In my opinion he needs an additional change to make banish a power to use freely around team mates without dictating what they can and can't shoot at.

 

The over all issue is limbo forced his playstyles onto non limbos and the changes made alleviated that issue. Banish on the other hand still needs work in my opinion.