[Spoilers] There is no reason to keep space mum alive (SPOLIERS)

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

8 minutes ago, (PS4)Kamil-the-KamiKa said:

bro you are defending the villian.

No, I'm pointing out that many people are claiming that someone is a villain, but those people haven't actually paid attention to what they have seen, jumped to illogical conclusions, and should generally take a moment to wipe the foam from their mouths because they are starting to look rabid, and there's only one cure for rabies. 

[(PSN)Kamil-the-KamiKa]

10 minutes ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

No, I'm pointing out that many people are claiming that someone is a villain, but those people haven't actually paid attention to what they have seen, jumped to illogical conclusions, and should generally take a moment to wipe the foam from their mouths because they are starting to look rabid, and there's only one cure for rabies. 

as is the lotus, as you said: only one cure 🙂

Let the people have their torches and pitch forkes, it's a fictional character. They wanna go all out and kill her, so what? Let them, i wanna kill her too. If DE pulls off a 'love and hope' ending i'll be severely dissapointed.

Also next time, quote my whole comment where i point out several times that she is a villian, not just the first sentence.

everyone got enough reasons to stab her.

Edited August 20, 2019 by (PS4)Kamil-the-KamiKa

[Dr_Shadox]

Knowing what the majority of Tennos want to do (kill her), i'm pretty sure DE found a way to make us doubt and maybe think to save her.

Like , idk , maybe it was a fake lotus acting against us and the "true" lotus is prisonner somewhere and we must save her or something like that.

Pretty sure we can expect a plot twist.

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

1 minute ago, (PS4)Kamil-the-KamiKa said:

Let the people have their torches and pitch forkes, it's a fictional character.

"Let people claim the world is flat, it won't hurt anyone. Let people not vaccinate their kids, they have a right to choose. Let people go around screaming that the sky is falling and convincing other uninformed, gullible souls of it, being ignorant makes them happy. Let people who haven't paid any attention to the lore, tell people who have, to read the lore, it's just a game and being loudly uninformed is fine."

Sorry little buddy, things like facts don't care about your feelings, and opinions. Pay attention to what you actually saw, instead of how you felt about seeing it. She had us all vulnerable during cryosleep she did not kill us. She could have left us exposed for our enemies to find, she hid us safely in the void. She could have sided with her father when he woke, she helped us bury him. She could have gone willingly with Ballas, she resisted until he did that thing. She could have had her escorts actually try to kill us, but she made her phone call to mother and left. Yes she has recently said some things to us that seem strange, but in light of the video where a visibly confused Natah was told pretty much the same things by Mother, the narrative takes on a very different light. 

34 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

If somebody defected from North Korea, got kidnapped by North Koreans and then showed up praising North Korea declaring that the West had brainwashed them all along, would you automatically believe that? Because that's the situation we're in right now.

 

By the way, quoting your whole submission, the points of which were dealt with previously, and repeatedly, isn't a priority for anyone who isn't you. Make a novel point, and we'll all consider dealing with it. Just sit there repeating the same nonsense that you heard some other loud, uninformed person say, and you would be luck to even get the time of day. 

[Loza03]

13 minutes ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

By the way, quoting your whole submission, the points of which were dealt with previously, and repeatedly, isn't a priority for anyone who isn't you. Make a novel point, and we'll all consider dealing with it. Just sit there repeating the same nonsense that you heard some other loud, uninformed person say, and you would be luck to even get the time of day. 

But were they dealt with in this discussion, which may start from the same area but end up in different destinations?

I came up with those ideas independently. I'm repeating just one of them from my previous comment because that particular one is relevant to the precise conversation I was having.

Edited August 20, 2019 by Loza03
grammatical correction

[(PSN)Kamil-the-KamiKa]

16 minutes ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

"Let people claim the world is flat, it won't hurt anyone. Let people not vaccinate their kids, they have a right to choose. Let people go around screaming that the sky is falling and convincing other uninformed, gullible souls of it, being ignorant makes them happy. Let people who haven't paid any attention to the lore, tell people who have, to read the lore, it's just a game and being loudly uninformed is fine."

Sorry little buddy, things like facts don't care about your feelings, and opinions. Pay attention to what you actually saw, instead of how you felt about seeing it. She had us all vulnerable during cryosleep she did not kill us. She could have left us exposed for our enemies to find, she hid us safely in the void. She could have sided with her father when he woke, she helped us bury him. She could have gone willingly with Ballas, she resisted until he did that thing. She could have had her escorts actually try to kill us, but she made her phone call to mother and left. Yes she has recently said some things to us that seem strange, but in light of the video where a visibly confused Natah was told pretty much the same things by Mother, the narrative takes on a very different light. 

 

By the way, quoting your whole submission, the points of which were dealt with previously, and repeatedly, isn't a priority for anyone who isn't you. Make a novel point, and we'll all consider dealing with it. Just sit there repeating the same nonsense that you heard some other loud, uninformed person say, and you would be luck to even get the time of day. 

Have you missed the whole part where it is a fictional character. why the #*!% are you involving politics and real life conspiracies? This isn't a joe rogan podcast, it's warframe.

yeah, no. i think you're the one involving feelings here, pretty clear how you went off on one ''little buddy''. the facts are: Lotus was the helmet. during our cryo sleep she protected us because of the helmet, what are you not understanding about this? Natah is Natah, Lotus is Lotus, natah is not lotus, you want to save Lotus? go pick up her helmet. Natah is a whole 'nother person, she is sentient. Back to her origin. Clearly you are uninformed, i seriously seriously mean it. you NEED to re read the lore, but do so without involving your feelings, little buddy.

Hunhow clearly knew that this 'lotus' was not Natah, he did not know that Ballas coded Lotus and stuck her into Natah. She did not side with hunhow because she was still under control, while under control she did not see hunhow how natah saw him.

She never resisted, there was nothing to resist, she really thought lotus was her, just as we really thought we were the warframes until the second dream, what ballas did was remove the code he implanted.

i do not get where you got opinions and feelings from this, replay chimera prologue and ropo fight, nuff is said in those scenes.

Edited August 20, 2019 by (PS4)Kamil-the-KamiKa

[Loza03]

Just now, (PS4)Kamil-the-KamiKa said:

Lotus was the helmet. during our cryo sleep she protected us because of the helmet, what are you not understanding about this? Natah is Natah, Lotus is not Lotus, you want to save Lotus? go pick up her helmet. Natah is a whole 'nother person, she is sentient. Back to her origin. Clearly you are uninformed, i seriously seriously mean it. you NEED to re read the lore, but do so without involving your feelings, little buddy.

Um... there is no lore for that. There's yet to be any mention of that anywhere AFAIK. That's just a fan theory. There is lore suggests otherwise: Lotus herself claims just changed her name and considers Natah a 'dead' past version of herself - someone she isn't anymore.

Does that mean Lotus isn't in the helmet for sure? No, because there's no lore preventing it, and it's possible too given what we know of Sentients. And Lotus could easily have been lying or brainwashed then - or she could be brainwashed during the Jovian concord to claim she used to be brainwashed. Simply put: the Lotus is in a situation where she has retroactively become an unreliable narrator throughout all her appearances. Any source of information about this debate coming from any part of her must be taken with a huge grain of salt and treated as suspect.

[(PSN)Kamil-the-KamiKa]

7 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

Um... there is no lore for that. There's yet to be any mention of that anywhere AFAIK. That's just a fan theory. There is lore suggests otherwise: Lotus herself claims just changed her name and considers Natah a 'dead' past version of herself - someone she isn't anymore.

Does that mean Lotus isn't in the helmet for sure? No, because there's no lore preventing it, and it's possible too given what we know of Sentients. And Lotus could easily have been lying or brainwashed then - or she could be brainwashed during the Jovian concord to claim she used to be brainwashed. Simply put: the Lotus is in a situation where she has retroactively become an unreliable narrator throughout all her appearances. Any source of information about this debate coming from any part of her must be taken with a huge grain of salt and treated as suspect.

i agree, this is all fan theory. Hell, the lotus could of been brainwashed about her being brainwashed while being brainwashed. Everything has to be taken with a huge huge grain of salt until DE themselves confirm something. To form my theory i just took what natah said and created a thesis from it. i could be right or very wrong, probally the latter, but i just don't get how people don't put two and two together. Natah became Natah just as she got rid of the helmet, she said herself she was re programmed, she was even made to act and (speculated) look like margulis. Helmet is gone and she has gone full evil, she tried to kill us twice, first in sacrifice and then sent a full sentient boss after us. She went to salad V to create enemies, no doubt keeping us in mind too. Turned Ballas to a hideous sentient orokin hybrid and even Ballas, who started all this, now even wants her dead. She's sending armies into the orogin system to conquer. but hey that's just a theory, a game theory

Edited August 20, 2019 by (PS4)Kamil-the-KamiKa

[(XBOX)GmanM1]

If she drops loot, then she's getting dropped

[WoodedSkate89]

6 hours ago, aswitz87 said:

She was the equivalent of brainwashed.  She didn’t lie.  She even left us a trail to follow to figure out what was goin on (as opposed to just ghosting us).

 

No she wasn't. If you haven't completed all the missions don't reveal hidden contents.

Spoiler

She got us to destroy and weaken the corpus and grineer under the pretense of keeping balance in the universe so nobody got too powerful. But instead she was using us to wipe out the enemies of the sentients for their easy victory, and to free her from the moon (unfortunately for her freeing ourselves as well). The weakness of the sentients.

The second she was done with us, she left.

 

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

38 minutes ago, (PS4)Kamil-the-KamiKa said:

Have you missed the whole part where it is a fictional character. why the #*!% are you involving politics and real life conspiracies? This isn't a joe rogan podcast, it's warframe.

The fact that you think any of what you quoted lies in the realm of politics, is telling. 

38 minutes ago, (PS4)Kamil-the-KamiKa said:

yeah, no. i think you're the one involving feelings here, pretty clear how you went off on one ''little buddy''. the facts are: Lotus was the helmet. during our cryo sleep she protected us because of the helmet, what are you not understanding about this? Natah is Natah, Lotus is Lotus, natah is not lotus, you want to save Lotus? go pick up her helmet. Natah is a whole 'nother person, she is sentient. Back to her origin. Clearly you are uninformed, i seriously seriously mean it. you NEED to re read the lore, but do so without involving your feelings, little buddy.

Spend more time checking the lore, and less time checking the YouTube. The fact that Mother was seen trying to convince her that she was used, while the helmet sat comfortably in your orbiter, should tell you something. It's little details like that, that sort of slip through the cracks, isn't it? 

You know that there are apparently two branches of that sentient family tree? One that stuck to their purpose of trying to help us, and the other who started their journey through deep space to do something to help us, and decided that meant obliterating us. 

38 minutes ago, (PS4)Kamil-the-KamiKa said:

Hunhow clearly knew that this 'lotus' was not Natah, he did not know that Ballas coded Lotus and stuck her into Natah. She did not side with hunhow because she was still under control, while under control she did not see hunhow how natah saw him.

Ah that's why he called her Natah, and daughter the whole time? Yeah you may want to replay that. 

 

38 minutes ago, (PS4)Kamil-the-KamiKa said:

She never resisted, there was nothing to resist, she really thought lotus was her, just as we really thought we were the warframes until the second dream, what ballas did was remove the code he implanted.

Is that why she pretty much told him "yeah, no" at the beginning, and then only walked along, after he did his thing? You're really on a roll here, aren't you? 

Now, since we're about facts here, show, from the lore that Ballas implanted any code. 

38 minutes ago, (PS4)Kamil-the-KamiKa said:

i do not get where you got opinions and feelings from this, replay chimera prologue and ropo fight, nuff is said in those scenes.

I have. I also paid attention to the New War teaser trailer, which comes before the ropalolyst fight. You may want to consider checking that out, and noting the dialogue in light of what it shows. 

26 minutes ago, (PS4)Kamil-the-KamiKa said:

i agree, this is all fan theory.

Well then, there's the problem. Many "fans" don't actually seem to know what a "theory" is. That term basically just translates to "yeah this is something that I just made up, in spite of all evidence to the contrary". 

12 minutes ago, WoodedSkate89 said:

No she wasn't. If you haven't completed all the missions don't reveal hidden contents.

  Hide contents

She got us to destroy and weaken the corpus and grineer under the pretense of keeping balance in the universe so nobody got too powerful. But instead she was using us to wipe out the enemies of the sentients for their easy victory, and to free her from the moon (unfortunately for her freeing ourselves as well). The weakness of the sentients.

The second she was done with us, she left.

 

Again that narrative doesn't make any sense. We could have done that easily before we went into cryosleep. Hunhow could have easily done that while we were in cryosleep. We have not weakened either faction, only kept either from becoming dominant. The presence of the wolf, doesn't make the herd weaker, it forces them to become stronger. 

[Loza03]

Spoiler

22 minutes ago, WoodedSkate89 said:

She got us to destroy and weaken the corpus and grineer under the pretense of keeping balance in the universe so nobody got too powerful. But instead she was using us to wipe out the enemies of the sentients for their easy victory, and to free her from the moon (unfortunately for her freeing ourselves as well). The weakness of the sentients.

The second she was done with us, she left.

 

I'm afraid that doesn't make any sense.

We know what their plan was - the character with a much lower chance of brainwashing tells us, Hunhow. Kill the Orokin, Kill the Tenno, the Sentients swoop in. Why would she decide to hold off on that for 1000+ years for no reason then actively fight against her direct superior when he tries to enact said plan? She was done with us.

[(PSN)Kamil-the-KamiKa]

25 minutes ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

The fact that you think any of what you quoted lies in the realm of politics, is telling. 

Spend more time checking the lore, and less time checking the YouTube. The fact that Mother was seen trying to convince her that she was used, while the helmet sat comfortably in your orbiter, should tell you something. It's little details like that, that sort of slip through the cracks, isn't it? 

You know that there are apparently two branches of that sentient family tree? One that stuck to their purpose of trying to help us, and the other who started their journey through deep space to do something to help us, and decided that meant obliterating us. 

Ah that's why he called her Natah, and daughter the whole time? Yeah you may want to replay that. 

 

Is that why she pretty much told him "yeah, no" at the beginning, and then only walked along, after he did his thing? You're really on a roll here, aren't you? 

Now, since we're about facts here, show, from the lore that Ballas implanted any code. 

I have. I also paid attention to the New War teaser trailer, which comes before the ropalolyst fight. You may want to consider checking that out, and noting the dialogue in light of what it shows. 

Well then, there's the problem. Many "fans" don't actually seem to know what a "theory" is. That term basically just translates to "yeah this is something that I just made up, in spite of all evidence to the contrary". 

Again that narrative doesn't make any sense. We could have done that easily before we went into cryosleep. Hunhow could have easily done that while we were in cryosleep. We have not weakened either faction, only kept either from becoming dominant. The presence of the wolf, doesn't make the herd weaker, it forces them to become stronger. 

Natah

The Tenno. But when I saw your tender faces, I took mercy. Or so we were told."

My light remade by the creators"

Reprogrammed to destroy my family, my people, my history."

You were saved. But I... I was changed."

"I was changed."

Ballas

"But of course you are. Imprisoned, just as she was."

"Only suffering under her eye."

"Fool! This... This is no gift!"

"She stole my death! My perfect death."

"Such is her power... over me. Over the devil!"

Talking About The Deceitful Lotus

• "We saw what we wanted, those devils and I."
• "A lover... a mother. But now I know."
• "She's neither. She's a hawk - calling with sparrow's song."
• "A viper, blending into wood."
• "And her venom... spreads not into flesh, but into your heart."
• "Those devils! What has their great awakening accomplished - but the destruction of potential allies? "
• "Don't they see?"
• "Love must die--"
• "--As Margulis did... When I sent her into the jade light."
• "And the Lotus... Just some cloud in the sky, just some shape they imagined."
• "Only the Sentient is real."
• "Only Natah."

end of sacrifice

"what have they done to you?"

"nothing, this... this is what i am"

she is literally described time and time again as not a good person AT ALL, she admits herself she was remade, ballas says how she was imprisoned, not herself. Natah is literally who she is, i cannot make it any simpler to understand. Anyway i said my piece, better to not make this thread locked by getting frustrated.

 

Edited August 20, 2019 by (PS4)Kamil-the-KamiKa

[(PSN)Kamil-the-KamiKa]

7 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

  Hide contents

 

I'm afraid that doesn't make any sense.

We know what their plan was - the character with a much lower chance of brainwashing tells us, Hunhow. Kill the Orokin, Kill the Tenno, the Sentients swoop in. Why would she decide to hold off on that for 1000+ years for no reason then actively fight against her direct superior when he tries to enact said plan? She was done with us.

she was re programmed during her infretration mission, she got bamboolzed while trying to bamboozle, this keeps going back time and time again to the helmet, it remade her.

[angias]

Le 17/08/2019 à 19:14, Gabbynaru a dit :

If there is no option to kill Lotus come New War, I'll be really, really mad. That traitor needs to die!

We deserve to die just has much.

[Gabbynaru]

Just now, angias said:

We deserve to die just has much.

I mean, yes, I ain't gonna contradict you on that one. We're a**holes just as big, if not bigger, than Lotus and the entire Sentient force combined. But we're not playing as Lotus, we're playing as the Operator, so, in that exchange, Lotus needs to die for us to keep existing (and the game to make sense).

[angias]

il y a 2 minutes, Gabbynaru a dit :

I mean, yes, I ain't gonna contradict you on that one. We're a**holes just as big, if not bigger, than Lotus and the entire Sentient force combined. But we're not playing as Lotus, we're playing as the Operator, so, in that exchange, Lotus needs to die for us to keep existing (and the game to make sense).

Yeah make sense.

I will not make my mind till the very end.

It's more interesting that way, i believe.

[evilChair]

So it seems that  I'm the only one here who expects TNW to be more morally warped than "we kill Natah". The Tenno are kids, and kids have no upper limit for cruelty, and absolutely no consideration for others. If it means wrenching Natah back into the helmet and inflicting triple-brainwash trauma in cold blood, I'm all for it because it's good writing. Anything else would be too merciful of what are basically adolescent Orokin.

[SilentMobius]

On 2019-08-18 at 12:10 AM, WoodedSkate89 said:

What will you guys do if there is that option?

Listen to what she has to say, help her if she can be helped.

The Sentients are just as much children of the Origin system as we are, and just like the Grineer vs Steel Meridian or the Corpus vs the Perrin Sequence any one of us can be brought up in, brainwased into or just plain convinced into a bad situation.

If she's incapable of coexistance and peace, then I'll do what has to be done.

But I doubt she is.

Edited August 24, 2019 by SilentMobius

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

1 hour ago, Gabbynaru said:

we're not playing as Lotus, we're playing as the Operator, so, in that exchange, Lotus needs to die for us to keep existing (and the game to make sense).

[Loza03]

1 hour ago, (PS4)Kamil-the-KamiKa said:

she was re programmed during her infretration mission, she got bamboolzed while trying to bamboozle, this keeps going back time and time again to the helmet, it remade her.

And if she was reprogrammed to serve the Orokin, why would she have us kill them? That's a pretty big oversight. Ballas didn't do it - he very explicitly states in Chimera Prologue that, as far as he was aware, she was a double-agent that tricked him into thinking she was like Margulis - that's mutually exclusive with him reprogramming her. And if Ballas, the Traitor, had no part in the reprogramming, why would normal, loyal Orokin just allow her to destroy themselves? If they had enough control to get her to not complete one part of the plan, why stop the part that happens after their entire civilisation is destroyed? Not to mention, if they could mind-control Sentients, why would they rebel - wouldn't the Orokin have put that mind-control in place right from the start?

 

Double-agent Lotus requires Orokin-brainwashed Lotus to make sense. But Orokin-brainwashed Lotus doesn't make any sense. Therefore, double-agent Lotus can't be true either. Therefore, she was neither.

Once you have eliminated the impossible, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truth. 

Edited August 20, 2019 by Loza03

[EvilChaosKnight]

Eh, I have my own reasons why I'd rather have Lotus around or even side with the damn Sentients.
1. Ballas wants Lotus dead by our hand. Ballas is an Orokin, and Orokin are the root of all current problems. Also last person who trusted Ballas ended up violently murderizing his own son. Don't trust Ballas, and don't do what he says. That's a motive good enough for me already.
2. Sentients are legit the only current faction which has enough power to stop the Grineer and Corpus domination in Sol. Or does anyone seriously think that Fortuna folks or Ostrons can actually defeat these multi-billion manpower interplanetary big bads? Maybe Tenno can? Because we are doing such an amazing job so far, things have only gotten worse.

While I don't think that Sentients would want to help the meatbags in any shape or form, I believe it's quite possible to convince them to enjoy their life in Tau system, because as it stands, the humanity is completely FUBAR so nobody is going to touch their precious eco-friendly(tm) planets lightyears away in any foreseeable future if ever at all. As for the Tenno, we have our hands full with Infestation (which murders everyone and gets new strains sometimes), Grineer (which enslave and murder everyone) and Corpus (which exploit everyone they can and murder ones they can't profit off).
Leave petty revenge and old grudges to grumpy old people with nothing better to do. Yes, I'm looking at you grandpa Hunhow.

Edited August 20, 2019 by EvilChaosKnight

[WoodedSkate89]

3 hours ago, Loza03 said:

  Reveal hidden contents

 

I'm afraid that doesn't make any sense.

We know what their plan was - the character with a much lower chance of brainwashing tells us, Hunhow. Kill the Orokin, Kill the Tenno, the Sentients swoop in. Why would she decide to hold off on that for 1000+ years for no reason then actively fight against her direct superior when he tries to enact said plan? She was done with us.

In the ropatolyst fight she says that she was also trapped inside Lua's belly

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

3 hours ago, (PS4)Kamil-the-KamiKa said:

she was re programmed during her infretration mission, she got bamboolzed while trying to bamboozle, this keeps going back time and time again to the helmet, it remade her.

Find that in the lore. It isn't there. This should tell you something. 

3 hours ago, (PS4)Kamil-the-KamiKa said:

Natah

The Tenno. But when I saw your tender faces, I took mercy. Or so we were told."

You're quoting lines from the ropalolyst fight. Those lines come after the teaser trailer for the new war. Watch that trailer, and then reread the lines. She's repeating what she has been told by Mother. 

That context is important. 

3 hours ago, (PS4)Kamil-the-KamiKa said:

end of sacrifice

"what have they done to you?"

"nothing, this... this is what i am"

Yes, because gone is the humanoid shape that we've seen in the very recent past. Or did you miss the enormous sentient harness that she's apparently now a part of. 

What have they done to you? 

Nothing. This... This is what I am. 

3 hours ago, (PS4)Kamil-the-KamiKa said:

she is literally described time and time again as not a good person AT ALL, she admits herself she was remade, ballas says how she was imprisoned, not herself. Natah is literally who she is, i cannot make it any simpler to understand. Anyway i said my piece, better to not make this thread locked by getting frustrated.

Literally nobody is described as a purely good or purely evil person. Except maybe, Clem he's pretty good. 

Ballas has literally demonstrated that he doesn't even know who she is part of the time. She tried correcting him, but he wasn't having any of it. We know that he's aware that Margulis is dead and Natah is not her from the vitruvian. But he still can't keep it straight. 

You even quoted him saying that he thought that she was his lover. And now he knows that she isn't. Yeah that's a sign that he's not right in the head. He's contradicting himself and blaming her for not being who he wants her to be. Jilted lovers tend to do that sort of thing. Look at what he's spouting, poison in the heart, love must die, that's heartbreak talking. He's basically reciting one of those country music songs. 

And yes Natah is who she is. But who she is, decided to take care of us, protected us, defied Father and kept us safe, and finally was brought before Mother who convinced her that she was forced to do this, despite all evidence to the contrary. Now she repeats those lines while acting against us, but she's not telling us this in a dialogue, it's a monologue. She's repeating it, possibly because she has to, to convince herself of it. 

 

[Loza03]

1 hour ago, WoodedSkate89 said:

In the ropatolyst fight she says that she was also trapped inside Lua's belly

Nothing Lotus says in that fight especially, but even before that point (at least when relating to the Sentients), is to be trusted or taken at face value.