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[Spoilers] There is no reason to keep space mum alive (SPOLIERS)

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8 hours ago, Rider_Megalon said:

Any one else find the need to kill Lotus a bit on  the creepy side or is that just me. Also BIG money on the helmet being a red haring

People have been saying it for years, since before we even had any story content in the game. I don't understand it either.

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Everyone is missing a very subtle point here. We are Tenno. We control the warframes that helped with the fall of the orokin empire.

Lotus, from the begining of the game, has us go around the system, using guerilla tactics, to maintain a fragile balance of power between the corpus and grineer.

Why? We can slay sentients, we can slay giant spider orbs, we can slay anything that has the misfortune to look in our way.

And yet, we can't solve the problem with the corpus and grineer.

But we can. It's just we were not instructed to go and eliminate. We were instructed to maintain the war. Not end it.

You could say that the corpus and grineer have large numbers of army units, bases, etc. But do they compare to the might of the orokin empire?

No they do not. We eliminated a far greater foe but we are somehow having problems with these two little guys.

Also, you could say that there are less operators/warframes now than there war in the old war. Ok, but what about all the people that live under the corpus and grineer.

As with fortuna, we help the people defend and destroy a threat. The same way, we could organize all the peolple and destroy the threats of corpus and grineer.

The only one who has an advantage in such a situation, is a third party.

A third party that has no losses, no battle fatigue, time to gather resources and amass a war army large enough to guarantee a victory, and it's just waiting for the oportunity to strike.

Lotus in no way has ever helped the system or us.

Time and time again all her actions were only to delay, lie by omission, lie directly.

 

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8 hours ago, (XB1)SixGunLove said:

No, it's my need to be free of control. The Tenno no longer need her. 

 

How many regular orokin children did she and her family slaughter during the old war? Probably many! She's disgusting. And you wanna save it? 

The Orokin can not have be children. They are a ruling caste who transplant their consciousness across good-looking kidnapped people. Not to mention that showing any mercy to an Orokin would be an injustice to every one of their victims.

As for the Lotus, well. I don't care about Natah. She's an ingredient, and ingredients are there to be chopped up and put in a pot helmet pot. The Lotus/Margulis mixed-personality even said that she killed the Natah personality in order to become herself, but I understand that some people don't give a damn about the lore and act on impulse.

What I'm saying is that if there's a way to restore a "Margulis", it has to go over Natah's dead body. Not for any sentimental reasons, but because we will finally have mission control who's not 1) Ordis and 2) not oblivious to Wally's existence.

tldr: There is no measure of cruelty that is wanton when you both have to kill insane blue Space Romans and restore a strategically vital personality (Margulis or "Margulis"). The Tenno perform surgical strikes. And as with any other surgery, results and the patient's life are everything, while personal sentiment is an aberration that you leave at the door or risk causing even more chaos than you started out with.

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7 hours ago, Loza03 said:

Most of the mission rewards came from her one way or the other

Except she's been gone for the past 2 years and nothing's changed in the rate and amount of missions and rewards, so she probably did F all. So that excuse doesn't work.

6 hours ago, (PS4)Shelneroth said:

How come self defense  excuses trying to kill you but being brainwashed doesn't?

Cause I can't remember Maroo ever trying to kill me, but I just went along with it in case my terrible memory's at it again. If she actually did try to kill me, she must have done a really poor job. Cause what sort of murder attempt is so unmemorable?

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2 minutes ago, Gabbynaru said:

Except she's been gone for the past 2 years and nothing's changed in the rate and amount of missions and rewards, so she probably did F all. So that excuse doesn't work.

If I remember Ask A Cephalon right Lotus coordinated a network of cephalons, intelligence agents, smugglers, and syndicate related operations. If that counts as canon it's rather shocking that she left the lights on and all of her cephalons running. If she were truly interested in waging a war against us you'd think that she would just destroy the intelligence network that supports us first. Then again, maybe she's waiting for the opportune time to do so. For all we know the moment the Sentients hit the system she pushes a button to shut it all down so we're blind, deaf, and dumb.

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1 hour ago, Gabbynaru said:

Except she's been gone for the past 2 years and nothing's changed in the rate and amount of missions and rewards, so she probably did F all. So that excuse doesn't work.

Ordis and the other cephalons have taken over that role. We can assume that there's issues behind the scenes we don't see because gameplay/story segregation, similar to how Grineer activity doesn't diminish when we take out a boss.

1 hour ago, Gabbynaru said:

Cause I can't remember Maroo ever trying to kill me, but I just went along with it in case my terrible memory's at it again. If she actually did try to kill me, she must have done a really poor job. Cause what sort of murder attempt is so unmemorable?

Quote

As a Capture target, Maroo wields an Aklex pair, and can use Smoke Screen to turn invisible to evade pursuers. Also, Maroo has the ability to defend herself with her weapons when downed, similar to Tenno, and thus care must be taken when attempting capture.

From the Wiki.

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3 hours ago, Melkfet said:

But do they compare to the might of the orokin empire?

No they do not. We eliminated a far greater foe but we are somehow having problems with these two little guys.

We cut the head of the snake off, and the body tore itself apart. We didn't destroy the Empire on our own, and the same tactic won't work against the more decentralised Grineer and Corpus.

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11 hours ago, Flying_Scorpion said:

She's not actually our enemy, she's just under the control of Natah. After he's dead, she'll turn back into the regular lotus again and get back together with the man in the wall so we can be a happy family 🙂

This is not the story at all...

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I feel like we won't actually kill her directly. But there will be an option to save her from drying or not.

Either way most of the players want her dead so DE better deliver 

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Im pretty sure were gonna have to kill her wherever we want it or not. Hope Man in the wall gonna show up then and ressurect her into lotus-like persona to be his mouthpiece when communicating with us. After all he helped us getting the paracesis. Doubt he did that for free, he must have some kind of plan .

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Posted (edited)

"Most" 

Ah yes, this tiny fraction in this thread of the tiny fraction that use the forums in which not even everyone here agrees, but yes, "most" want her dead.

Personally I don't, because I do not think she's acting of her own will, funny people want Teshin but he was also in a situation where he betrayed us not totally of his own will and we forgive him, but before we even know what's going on its "death to the lotus" this to me just screams on the operator outrage where people who didn't like them twisted and bent what Steve said about the Sacrifice to all but "confirm" we'd get to kill our operator.

Some people just don't like the Lotus and will latch onto anything to justify their narrative, at this point in time we have no idea what's going on but there are plenty of hints that this isn't on the up and up.

Balas finds her, waves his hand a strange pulse goes out, suddenly she bails, she shows up talking to her mother confused, her mother tells her things, next we see her simply repeating those very things to us, going against everything we knew up till that point, more so as the narrative she's now pushing flies in the face of logic. 

"So the Orokin brainwashed me into being your caretaker and using that role that I was totally brainwashed into I then killed them using you." Yes, because when I brainwash someone my first idea would be to tell them to kill me. 

Finally we have Hunhowl from 2 years ago. "They are coming, they will try to 'reclaim' you, I won't be able to stop it." Almost seems like exactly what he said would happen, happened. 

DE is in no way obligated to kill a character a part of the fandom dose not like and I honestly don't see them killing her, both from a narrative side but also just in general she and her symbol are basically Warframe, "gift of the lotus" guides of the lotus" it's all about her.

But to me, the most damming bit of outside of the story evidence is the fact she's not been replaced yet, Ordis is right there and has for a quest or two, why keep holo-lotus? It's been years, just re dub everything with Ordis, he's not going anywhere, only reason not to is it would be a waste of money, why re dub everything if she's coming back?  

I don't think it'll be the same, but I get the feeling when it's all said and done she'll resume the role, even if she isn't "the" lotus anymore, the old basic mission dialogue will still make sense, quest are already treated like time bubbles and going forward she'll just be different depending on how this all plays out.        

Edited by BlitzAceRush
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32 minutes ago, WoodedSkate89 said:

I feel like we won't actually kill her directly. But there will be an option to save her from drying or not.

Either way most of the players want her dead so DE better deliver 

If we have a choice I doubt it'll have any actual impact on the story, that's just far too much of a commitment to make on the part of the dev team, especially for such a pivotal character to the story as the Lotus, divergent storylines are not a light feat even for basic choices much less status quo changers. At most we'll get the illusion of choice like with the Grineer Queen, but whatever fate is in store for the Lotus is likely fixed, and definitely nothing so polarizing as her being removed from our interactions and story or not. That's just too much time and resources to commit to a story with no discernible end point. 

As for most people wanting the Lotus dead, is there a source to that statement? I know DE did a poll sometime ago on the matter with like 60k responses, but that ended with the majority wanting her saved so...

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22 minutes ago, BlitzAceRush said:

"Most" 

Ah yes, this tiny fraction in this thread of the tiny fraction that use the forums in which not even everyone here agrees, but yes, "most" want her dead.

Players have been obsessed with killing her even before The Sacrifice. Lots of people hate the Lotus.

As a test, ask in regional chat. See what people have to say

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6 hours ago, Melkfet said:

As with fortuna, we help the people defend and destroy a threat. The same way, we could organize all the peolple and destroy the threats of corpus and grineer.

The only one who has an advantage in such a situation, is a third party.

A third party that has no losses, no battle fatigue, time to gather resources and amass a war army large enough to guarantee a victory, and it's just waiting for the oportunity to strike.

Lotus in no way has ever helped the system or us.

Time and time again all her actions were only to delay, lie by omission, lie directly.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but you haven't been to paying attention in Fortuna. Actually read the debt bonds you buy. Significant numbers of them were active military at some point. The Corpus you want to kill, are the people you are claiming should be saved. The same goes for the Grineer based on the syndicate lore. 

And what you're saying doesn't make sense. A single Tenno can obliterate a base after exterminating every living thing with less than a scratch. In a single run we can kill thousands of them. The upper limit is generally determined by how bored we feel. 

The Corpus and Grineer, left to their own devices for so long, have not advanced enough to compare to the Orokin in technology, art, science. There's only one place where they even begin to approach their former masters, and that is the ability to wage war. The only reason for that is the constant struggle to gain the upper hand. If either were to achieve dominance, that struggle would cease.

We are what allows them to prepare for the Sentient threat. The presence of the wolf does not weaken the herd. It forces them to become stronger. 

 

As for needing time to amass an army, why would they need it? They were wiping out the Orokin with only a fraction of their might. The Orokin, with their superior weaponry, and elite warriors, could not win without us. Do you think that the Corpus scavengers, or the Grineer copymen really stand a chance? The Eidolons, mere undirected fragments of a single Sentient are more than the Grineer of the plains can deal with. The Ropalolyst is more than Alad V with all of his resources and ingenuity, can handle. 

The sentients don't need us to weaken the ants that they could wipe out with no significant effort. But the Origin system needs us all to be the best at waging war as we can. For them that means eternal struggle. For us it means keeping the balance, and convincing them to come over to our cause. 

That is what she's been doing for us. She's kept the balance, kept us hidden for as long as possible. She has given us a chance to survive what's coming. 

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1 hour ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

We are what allows them to prepare for the Sentient threat. The presence of the wolf does not weaken the herd. It forces them to become stronger. 

 

As for needing time to amass an army, why would they need it? They were wiping out the Orokin with only a fraction of their might. The Orokin, with their superior weaponry, and elite warriors, could not win without us. Do you think that the Corpus scavengers, or the Grineer copymen really stand a chance? The Eidolons, mere undirected fragments of a single Sentient are more than the Grineer of the plains can deal with. The Ropalolyst is more than Alad V with all of his resources and ingenuity, can handle. 

The sentients don't need us to weaken the ants that they could wipe out with no significant effort. But the Origin system needs us all to be the best at waging war as we can. For them that means eternal struggle. For us it means keeping the balance, and convincing them to come over to our cause. 

That is what she's been doing for us. She's kept the balance, kept us hidden for as long as possible. She has given us a chance to survive what's coming. 

I trust Alad more than I trust the Lotus. Ever since we were told she was Sentient. If the Lotus taught us anything, it was trust nobody. Trust only her and don't trust anybody else. Don't forge alliances with other factions, don't try to right the wrongs and fix the system. We've burned pretty much all of our possible allies, and now there's a massive Sentient fleet waiting to come crashing into our home and annihilate all of us. And that has all been set up by her. 

Do I think the Corpus could help us in our fight? Absolutely. The Corpus have shown immense potential in developing weaponry designed to fight immovable objects that have an unstoppable force. Us. Granted they've failed to succeed at beating us, but they still have developed weapons far exceeding the Grineer. The Grineer have Fomorians. That's really it. But a Formorian is still good at helping.

Also, the balance she's kept is constant war, not letting either side get strong enough to pose a threat to either the Tenno or the Sentients. Keeping us hidden is what made us weaker. Teshin pulled out of our shadows and made us stronger. We sought out the Quills and furthered our power. We studied and trained to grow our Focus. The Lotus kept us hidden, trying to shelter us. Sheltering us would've brought our demise. Thanks to Teshin, and the Quills, and our own will, we've grown much stronger, much more quickly than the Lotus ever wanted. She wanted us to stay in our little pods on Lua. Was she really attempting to help us grow strong enough to fight the Sentient fleet? 

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On 2019-08-17 at 6:10 PM, WoodedSkate89 said:

Seeing how all she has done is lie to us since she met us... There is no reason to even want to keep her alive.

I feel like there will be a scene where once the natah bossfight is doneand we will have a chance to kill her or let her go. (Btw it really won't be a challenge). 

  Hide contents

UCmJK3H.jpg

What will you guys do if there is that option?

Pardon for how long this is going to be but I need to set it up first.
info... Margulis is blind hence the helmet.

Spoiler

Margulis is space mom. Ballis loves space mom. Sentients find out we can kill them. Space mom told to kill us. Space mom told to kill us. Space mom hides us. Space mom sentenced to death. (my theory from here) Ballis makes deal with Natah to save space mom from death. Natah wakes the Tenno wearing helmet and uses tenno as they always have been to gain our trust. Natah still planned on killing tenno. Ballis upset. Natah drives Ballis crazy. Natah makes deal with Alad V to create Amalgams. Space mom returns from hiding in the form of Nora to warn the Tenno because Alad and Natah have released The Wolf and his minions to kill the Tenno as the orokin had told Margulis to do and to cover the deal between Natah and Alad V. 



Now we're up to date. And to answer your question, I would kill Natah like I would kill a roach tryin to get in my house.

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1 hour ago, CaptainMinty said:

I trust Alad more than I trust the Lotus. Ever since we were told she was Sentient. If the Lotus taught us anything, it was trust nobody. Trust only her and don't trust anybody else. Don't forge alliances with other factions, don't try to right the wrongs and fix the system. We've burned pretty much all of our possible allies, and now there's a massive Sentient fleet waiting to come crashing into our home and annihilate all of us. And that has all been set up by her. 

I see that you have never visited a relay or checked the syndicate standing we earn, explored your orbiter or investigated the codex. 

Grineer, Corpus, Ostron, Quills, Tenno, Kubrow, Kavat, Sentinels, a true Dax, the infestation, and at least one Sentient, all banding together. Tell me again how we have not made alliances with every major faction in the game. 

And that has all been set up by her. 

1 hour ago, CaptainMinty said:

Do I think the Corpus could help us in our fight? Absolutely. The Corpus have shown immense potential in developing weaponry designed to fight immovable objects that have an unstoppable force. Us. Granted they've failed to succeed at beating us, but they still have developed weapons far exceeding the Grineer. The Grineer have Fomorians. That's really it. But a Formorian is still good at helping.

The Corpus are scavengers, they made their living scrounging for old Orokin technology and generally making inferior copies. Few of their weapons have stats that could compare to the prime (read, Orokin-era) variants. Even the more promising super weapons are built using stolen technology. 

The Grineer may ironically, be more inventive having constructed machines that can hold off sentients (the lures), something that the Orokin apparently had problems doing. But like the Corpus the majority of their creations are pale comparisons of the real thing. 

1 hour ago, CaptainMinty said:

Also, the balance she's kept is constant war, not letting either side get strong enough to pose a threat to either the Tenno or the Sentients. Keeping us hidden is what made us weaker. Teshin pulled out of our shadows and made us stronger. We sought out the Quills and furthered our power. We studied and trained to grow our Focus. The Lotus kept us hidden, trying to shelter us. Sheltering us would've brought our demise. Thanks to Teshin, and the Quills, and our own will, we've grown much stronger, much more quickly than the Lotus ever wanted. She wanted us to stay in our little pods on Lua. Was she really attempting to help us grow strong enough to fight the Sentient fleet? 

Yes, constant war. That's exactly what I said. An unending struggle, a permanent arms race, forcing the participants to keep getting better at attacking, and defending. 

Regarding what Teshin did, helping us to reach our potential, he is a Dax. They were around when we were found, saw us before Margulis made us lock the door, knew what destruction we were capable of. The Lotus showed up after this, and from Chains of Harrow we know that she does not possess all of Margulis' memories, if any. All she might be expected to know is that our powers were locked away because they were dangerous to ourselves and those around us. 

Hiding us would not have brought our demise, the Sentients on their eventual arrival would not have known where to look for us, because we were safely hidden in the place they will not be willing to go without reason. Nobody knew that it was even there. We were little more than a myth, a bogeyman used to scare naughty children. We had to emerge from hiding because the discovery of our lost frame would have caused a quantum shift in the power of one faction, irreparably upsetting the balance. Once the djinn was out of the bottle, putting it back, was impossible. 

Even so, we were still safe. A secret held by one, was a safe secret. The only thing that could emperil us, was not following our instructions, or a fool seeking out the second most dangerous thing in the known universe. Care to guess what happened? 

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58 minutes ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

Hiding us would not have brought our demise, the Sentients on their eventual arrival would not have known where to look for us, because we were safely hidden in the place they will not be willing to go without reason. Nobody knew that it was even there. We were little more than a myth, a bogeyman used to scare naughty children. We had to emerge from hiding because the discovery of our lost frame would have caused a quantum shift in the power of one faction, irreparably upsetting the balance. Once the djinn was out of the bottle, putting it back, was impossible. 

Even so, we were still safe. A secret held by one, was a safe secret. The only thing that could emperil us, was not following our instructions, or a fool seeking out the second most dangerous thing in the known universe. Care to guess what happened? 

This isn't entirely correct. WE would have been safe, yes, but the Sentients knew where we were. Remember, in the Sacrifice we learn that Ballaed spills the beans to Hunhow, meaning that the Sentients knew we were on Lua. This is how Hunhow knew about the 'Womb in the Sky' in the Second Dream. It's not impossible that he could have hired Stalker to kill us should he have woken up for any other reason - or I suppose the same reason, since we can assume sooner or later somebody from the Corpus or Grineer was going to open that tomb.

So we weren't entirely safe, or we wouldn't have been had somebody opened Hunhow's genie lamp to nick your metaphor.

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33 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

This isn't entirely correct. WE would have been safe, yes, but the Sentients knew where we were. Remember, in the Sacrifice we learn that Ballaed spills the beans to Hunhow, meaning that the Sentients knew we were on Lua. This is how Hunhow knew about the 'Womb in the Sky' in the Second Dream. It's not impossible that he could have hired Stalker to kill us should he have woken up for any other reason - or I suppose the same reason, since we can assume sooner or later somebody from the Corpus or Grineer was going to open that tomb.

So we weren't entirely safe, or we wouldn't have been had somebody opened Hunhow's genie lamp to nick your metaphor.

You mean the place that no longer existed? The place destroyed in the old war? Perhaps destroyed by the same attacking force that we only finally defeated on our very doorstep? 

As for what he "knew".... I don't suppose that they still had the word "phishing", but I doubt that some things would have changed that much. Remember his daughter and trusted accomplice would probably have been kept in the loop, until he crashed and burned. She was surprised to find out that he learned of it, and as he was in contact with her, she would have been betrayed by her own thoughts. 

It's possible that he knew, but I believe it unlikely that he would have known that it still existed, and the exact location until that point. She probably thought that same old thing that we all do, that she had more time. 

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Just now, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

You mean the place that no longer existed? The place destroyed in the old war? Perhaps destroyed by the same attacking force that we only finally defeated on our very doorstep? 

As for what he "knew".... I don't suppose that they still had the word "phishing", but I doubt that some things would have changed that much. Remember his daughter and trusted accomplice would probably have been kept in the loop, until he crashed and burned. She was surprised to find out that he learned of it, and as he was in contact with her, she would have been betrayed by her own thoughts. 

It's possible that he knew, but I believe it unlikely that he would have known that it still existed, and the exact location until that point. She probably thought that same old thing that we all do, that she had more time. 

It's... guaranteed he knew. He is told by Ballas. He hires Stalker specifically to go there.

Quote

I give you now the coordinates and codes to this place.

 

 

Lotus was surprised that he knew the way there, but she mentions at the start of TSD that he is aware of it's existence.

Quote

Lotus: The Sentient Hunhow has grown strong again and his thoughts have invaded my own. Worse still, he has enlisted the Stalker to find the Reservoir, a weak point of all Tenno, a place I hid long ago. I fear the Stalker is on the cusp of finding this place, do not let this happen.

He can't hire somebody to find something he doesn't know exists.

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8 hours ago, WoodedSkate89 said:

I feel like we won't actually kill her directly. But there will be an option to save her from drying or not.

Either way most of the players want her dead so DE better deliver 

2CGEgoO.png?1

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3 minutes ago, KokoroWish said:

2CGEgoO.png?1

One poll doesnt prove anything.

 

The beginning of this video shows a poll that says most people want her dead.

So do other polls. One poll doesnt mean anything

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Posted (edited)
10 minutes ago, WoodedSkate89 said:

One poll doesnt prove anything.

 

The beginning of this video shows a poll that says most people want her dead.

So do other polls. One poll doesnt mean anything

That poll is a representative sample (34k players of the game, a huge sample size) from an actual event run by the developer. Is actually alot more meaningful that most other polls on the issue. Especially considering that one is from Shy's community. She puts out great content, but to say that she atracts an overly negative fanbase who hang on her every word is not a stretch.

Edited by KokoroWish
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