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[Spoilers] There is no reason to keep space mum alive (SPOLIERS)


WoodedSkate89
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19 minutes ago, KokoroWish said:

That poll is a representative sample (34k players of the game, a huge sample size) from an actual event run by the developer. Is actually alot more meaningful that most other polls on the issue. Especially considering that one is from Shy's community. She puts out great content, but to say that she atracts an overly negative fanbase who hang on her every word is not a stretch.

Ah yes 34k out of 50 million is representive

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21 minutes ago, WoodedSkate89 said:

Ah yes 34k out of 50 million is representive

It is. Because we dont have anything implying that most of those 50 Million want a thing or another or are not even here anymore.

Its like making a research that shows that 60% of the interviewed want product A. And the remaining 40% want B.

And when it comes down to it, B sells more than A.

It is a representative of a small part: of those who follow twitter and actually bother to vote. But its far more tangible and believeable than just up and saying "most will want this" without anything to back it up aside from word of mouth.

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42 minutes ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

People hire private investigators to find things that they aren't sure exist, and repo men or bounty hunters when they just aren't sure of the location. 

And recall that by the time Natah ends, he's aware of her existence, and probably ours from the drones, or from her mind. So postulating that a reservoir must also exist is reasonable. 

And with coordinates and codes, he still wasn't able to get to us until we fell into the trap. If memory serves, even the Stalker was confused when that final piece fell into place. But I suppose that when all of the impossible options were eliminated, what remained, however improbable, was the correct answer and off he went. 

How could Ballas send Hunhow codes and not confirm that it exists? Especially in his 'I'm betraying the Orokin' messages.

If there are codes for it, the Sentients were willing to not only spare Ballas but continue working with him (so he wasn't lying to them) and Hunhow directly refers to it... it's pretty reasonable to conclude that Ballas told them it existed and what/where it was, and then (since this was sent to Hunhow, thus pre-fall), Lotus hid the viable portals to the control room or changed the codes or moon's location after the fall of the Orokin and her subsequent betrayal. Remember, Hunhow goes into effectively a coma before the Tenno betrayal and thus Lotus's defection due to how the plan works - he won't fully aware of Lotus's actions during that time, or pretty much anything beyond vague impressions or details he could pull from her mind, data terminals or scans after he woke back up. He's not even aware of where she is upon awakening.

Quote

...Natah, where are you? You cannot hide from me.

Although he does know he betrayed them... that's kind of obvious considering his extended nap and distinct Tenno presence.

 

Lotus also specifies that she hid the reservoir in the opening of the Second Dream. Given what we know, it's likely she was hiding from Hunhow in particular.

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15 minutes ago, Kaotyke said:

It is. Because we dont have anything implying that most of those 50 Million want a thing or another or are not even here anymore.

Its like making a research that shows that 60% of the interviewed want product A. And the remaining 40% want B.

And when it comes down to it, B sells more than A.

It is a representative of a small part: of those who follow twitter and actually bother to vote. But its far more tangible and believeable than just up and saying "most will want this" without anything to back it up aside from word of mouth.

Well no... Again. A single poll with 34k out of 50million. Is not fully representative.

Most people I have this conversation in region chat want to kill Lotus. Most people here do. Most people on other polls do.

Neither of ours is representative. Because its a small minority

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Just now, (NSW)Badger said:

I don't think she's lied to us. At least, not any more than say, Obi-Wan lied to Luke, or how the American government convinces its population that they have fair and free elections. 

…ok. So maybe she did lie, but like a mother would tell their fugly son that they are handsome- to protect us. 

Have you played through all the quests?

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32 minutes ago, WoodedSkate89 said:

Well no... Again. A single poll with 34k out of 50million. Is not fully representative.

Most people I have this conversation in region chat want to kill Lotus. Most people here do. Most people on other polls do.

Neither of ours is representative. Because its a small minority

 

51 minutes ago, Kaotyke said:

It is. Because we dont have anything implying that most of those 50 Million want a thing or another or are not even here anymore.

Its like making a research that shows that 60% of the interviewed want product A. And the remaining 40% want B.

And when it comes down to it, B sells more than A.

It is a representative of a small part: of those who follow twitter and actually bother to vote. But its far more tangible and believeable than just up and saying "most will want this" without anything to back it up aside from word of mouth.

So, you are agreeing with me? Good.

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I love seeing all the theories and conspiracies when in reality, DE is most likely making/retconning this up as they go. (I must be the only one tired of not having a clear story which dialogue is not written in riddles).

 

We won't kill her. The reasons have already been said: her symbol is the symbol of the game, she hasn't been replaced yet, it would waste hundreds of recorded lines and the happy/power of friendship ending is cultural law. 

 

I would love to see Teshin or even Cephalon Cy as our new guide for the sake of variety or to have the choice to kill/save her, but seeing how the War Within choice hasn't even led anywhere, it is unlikely. 

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45 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

How could Ballas send Hunhow codes and not confirm that it exists? Especially in his 'I'm betraying the Orokin' messages.

Because he would have sent that prior to the attack. Then according to the dialogue Hunhow let us destroy him, presumably so that Natah could act during the victory celebration. We did our rendition of the Execution of the Romanovs, and then apparently pulled a vanishing act. So did Lua. Alad gives us the impression that the general belief was that it was long destroyed. 

Knowing where something used to be, and where it currently is are vastly different things as my car keys often remind me. So the stalker could search the spatial coordinates for where it used to be, all day long, but with Lua gone and the laws of physics not being applicable to the void, his confusion gave the impression that he was unlikely to have found us easily before we triggered the trap. 

1 hour ago, WoodedSkate89 said:

Ah yes 34k out of 50 million is representive

Followed by:

51 minutes ago, WoodedSkate89 said:

Most people I have this conversation in region chat want to kill Lotus. Most people here do. Most people on other polls do.

You sure you counted how many people you spoke with correctly? Because from what I see here it looks like you are not really sure how representative sampling works. 

Odds are you will stand a chance to figure it out over the next couple of years whenever your national election rolls around. 

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52 minutes ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

Because he would have sent that prior to the attack. Then according to the dialogue Hunhow let us destroy him, presumably so that Natah could act during the victory celebration. We did our rendition of the Execution of the Romanovs, and then apparently pulled a vanishing act. So did Lua. Alad gives us the impression that the general belief was that it was long destroyed. 

Knowing where something used to be, and where it currently is are vastly different things as my car keys often remind me. So the stalker could search the spatial coordinates for where it used to be, all day long, but with Lua gone and the laws of physics not being applicable to the void, his confusion gave the impression that he was unlikely to have found us easily before we triggered the trap. 

So, basically... exactly what I said past that one sentence you quoted.

Hunhow knew the resovoir existed all along. Lotus hid it from him, and that's why he doesn't know how to get there in the Second Dream.

1 hour ago, Loza03 said:

If there are codes for it, the Sentients were willing to not only spare Ballas but continue working with him (so he wasn't lying to them) and Hunhow directly refers to it... it's pretty reasonable to conclude that Ballas told them it existed and what/where it was, and then (since this was sent to Hunhow, thus pre-fall), Lotus hid the viable portals to the control room or changed the codes or moon's location after the fall of the Orokin and her subsequent betrayal. Remember, Hunhow goes into effectively a coma before the Tenno betrayal and thus Lotus's defection due to how the plan works - he won't fully aware of Lotus's actions during that time, or pretty much anything beyond vague impressions or details he could pull from her mind, data terminals or scans after he woke back up. He's not even aware of where she is upon awakening.

Quote

...Natah, where are you? You cannot hide from me.

Although he does know he betrayed them... that's kind of obvious considering his extended nap and distinct Tenno presence.

 

Lotus also specifies that she hid the reservoir in the opening of the Second Dream. Given what we know, it's likely she was hiding from Hunhow in particular.

 

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2 hours ago, Kaotyke said:

It is. Because we dont have anything implying that most of those 50 Million want a thing or another or are not even here anymore.

Its like making a research that shows that 60% of the interviewed want product A. And the remaining 40% want B.

And when it comes down to it, B sells more than A.

It is a representative of a small part: of those who follow twitter and actually bother to vote. But its far more tangible and believeable than just up and saying "most will want this" without anything to back it up aside from word of mouth.

He’s muddying the waters by trying to use sample size and standard deviation to invalidate your “representative” 34k.

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32 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

Hunhow knew the resovoir existed all along. Lotus hid it from him, and that's why he doesn't know how to get there in the Second Dream.

Again he knew that it existed in the past. Where it existed, it no longer was. Had the Lotus not been forced to risk exposure by the situation created where we didn't follow her orders and were apparently guided into harms way by Teshin Dax, perhaps things would have gone differently. Perhaps not. We cannot know. 

At the time of his reawakening, our continued existence, as well as that of the Lotus who was actively communicating with us would have been immediately noticeable, so given our existence the existence of a Reservoir could be postulated. However we seem to both agree that he didn't know where we were hidden. His preexisting/outdated information did not directly aid in locating us. That particular information only became available when he infiltrated Natah's mind, and upon us springing a trap which apparently gave a way to trace the Frame back to us. 

So I ask a hypothetical, had Hunhow not awakened, or only awakened at a time when we were still safely tucked in Cryosleep, and when the Lotus was shielding herself, when Lua no longer existed, and had vanished some time during the Old War, when Tenno were only bogeymen, and warframes held the status of half forgotten warrior gods, do you think that the Reservoir would have been found? 

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8 minutes ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

Again he knew that it existed in the past. Where it existed, it no longer was. Had the Lotus not been forced to risk exposure by the situation created where we didn't follow her orders and were apparently guided into harms way by Teshin Dax, perhaps things would have gone differently. Perhaps not. We cannot know. 

At the time of his reawakening, our continued existence, as well as that of the Lotus who was actively communicating with us would have been immediately noticeable, so given our existence the existence of a Reservoir could be postulated. However we seem to both agree that he didn't know where we were hidden. His preexisting/outdated information did not directly aid in locating us. That particular information only became available when he infiltrated Natah's mind, and upon us springing a trap which apparently gave a way to trace the Frame back to us. 

So I ask a hypothetical, had Hunhow not awakened, or only awakened at a time when we were still safely tucked in Cryosleep, and when the Lotus was shielding herself, when Lua no longer existed, and had vanished some time during the Old War, when Tenno were only bogeymen, and warframes held the status of half forgotten warrior gods, do you think that the Reservoir would have been found? 

Concerning him awakening when the Tenno weren't awake? Most likely, yes, sooner or later. We know Lotus was extremely afraid of Hunhow in the beginning and that their psychic link is strong.

Assuming Lotus didn't just slam on the 'Wake up the Tenno button' as soon as he started stirring, it's probable that he would have eventually wended the info out of her consciousness and convinced somebody to do the deed.

I've already addressed if the Sentients don't wake up, but that's also extremely unlikely for the same reason as why we would need to be awoken sooner or later.

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19 hours ago, Mints said:

If I remember Ask A Cephalon right Lotus coordinated a network of cephalons, intelligence agents, smugglers, and syndicate related operations. If that counts as canon it's rather shocking that she left the lights on and all of her cephalons running. If she were truly interested in waging a war against us you'd think that she would just destroy the intelligence network that supports us first. Then again, maybe she's waiting for the opportune time to do so. For all we know the moment the Sentients hit the system she pushes a button to shut it all down so we're blind, deaf, and dumb.

That'd be a pretty cool concept. One year solar rails are captured by the Tau and stop functioning, every planet is under attack by Sentients and the operators that are stranded on certain planets/relays have to fight their way back to solar rails to reconnect the solar system again. In the mean time they'll have to either help or ignore the desperate dominant faction's on those certain planets to flush the Sentients off world, ignoring would encourage Tenno based rewards while helping the dominant planetary factions would reward Grineer/Corpus loot.

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13 hours ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

 

Followed by:

You sure you counted how many people you spoke with correctly? Because from what I see here it looks like you are not really sure how representative sampling works. 

Odds are you will stand a chance to figure it out over the next couple of years whenever your national election rolls around. 

Don't leave part of my thing out to make your point. I said neither are representative. Because they both are a very small minority of players

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12 hours ago, Loza03 said:

Concerning him awakening when the Tenno weren't awake? Most likely, yes, sooner or later. We know Lotus was extremely afraid of Hunhow in the beginning and that their psychic link is strong.

Assuming Lotus didn't just slam on the 'Wake up the Tenno button' as soon as he started stirring, it's probable that he would have eventually wended the info out of her consciousness and convinced somebody to do the deed.

I've already addressed if the Sentients don't wake up, but that's also extremely unlikely for the same reason as why we would need to be awoken sooner or later.

I can't say that you are wrong but I can't definitely agree either. I believe that since his relative proximity to the Lotus all this time, wasn't enough to awaken him, and the dialogue that shows that she was attempting to keep his directed mental assault at bay, that it indicates that she may have had a way to remain hidden from him. 

I believe that the exposure, referred specifically to the sentients, as several entities seem to have been aware of her role in the Old War, and even her nature. This implies to me that she was staying hidden, and explains why an army of searching drones hadn't been able to locate and extract her, despite being present and active in general locale. 

I believe that without having us observed by drones and active during the opening of the chamber, without her open line of communication to us at the time, and the obvious absence of the location of the reservoir, since the time of the Old War, the Sentients would have come to the same conclusion that the rest of the system did prior to our reawakening. 

I do however accept that it's possible that she may still have been discovered, and that we may never know what her actual plans were. 

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1 hour ago, WoodedSkate89 said:

Don't leave part of my thing out to make your point. I said neither are representative. Because they both are a very small minority of players

And I indicated that you're displaying a rather glaring lack of understanding of how representative sampling works. The fact that you think that you can compare anecdotal evidence involving a few dozen people on chat, or even possibly a few hundred on the forums, to a sample of a few hundred hundreds. If you can't tell the difference between those numbers, well you may have to find someone to explain why one is better for sampling than the others. 

Most of the time from what I've seen these Red Queen-esque, "bring me her head" threads, just get eye rolls from the majority of sane people and hardly anyone wants her dead. (See how easy it is to make unsubstantiated anecdotal claims?) 

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1 hour ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

And I indicated that you're displaying a rather glaring lack of understanding of how representative sampling works. The fact that you think that you can compare anecdotal evidence involving a few dozen people on chat, or even possibly a few hundred on the forums, to a sample of a few hundred hundreds. If you can't tell the difference between those numbers, well you may have to find someone to explain why one is better for sampling than the others. 

Most of the time from what I've seen these Red Queen-esque, "bring me her head" threads, just get eye rolls from the majority of sane people and hardly anyone wants her dead. (See how easy it is to make unsubstantiated anecdotal claims?) 

For those wondering this was my point.

 

18 hours ago, WoodedSkate89 said:

Well no... Again. A single poll with 34k out of 50million. Is not fully representative.

Most people I have this conversation in region chat want to kill Lotus. Most people here do. Most people on other polls do.

Neither of ours is representative. Because its a small minority

 

 

Also I do know what representative sampling is. Please try and read me and the other persons full argument.

He showed 1 poll. I showed another. A single poll isnt representive of what players want unless it is a majority.

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1 hour ago, WoodedSkate89 said:

For those wondering this was my point.

Also I do know what representative sampling is. Please try and read me and the other persons full argument.

He showed 1 poll. I showed another. A single poll isnt representive of what players want unless it is a majority.

And for those wondering a sample of 34k always trumps 'well everyone I spoke to agreed with my point of view.... What? I have to provide actual numbers? Since when? This is the internet!"

34k is a pretty big sample. Unless my memory is really shot, I would say that you're looking at a margin of error of close to half of a percent. That's not a problem. 

The only thing that brings the "representative" part into question is the fact that it only sampled twitter responses. The number of responses is not an issue. 

Your poll... Well... 🙄 Do I really need to show why a few hundreds hundreds is bigger than a few dozen? 

Again, you should do a little reading on how representative a 34k person sample would be. 

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