QoL changes for Trinity

[Sannleikur]

Let me say this first: Trinity is a solid frame. She "can" kill in high level content, and she can tank, and support. 

But lets be real here, she's got 2 niches and otherwise doesn't see much use. She can babysit lures, and she can EV for xp farm parties. 

In every other scenario, she is outperformed by other frames, even when it comes to support. In rescue and defense missions, oberon and limbo are better choices than trinity as support frames and to boot can do as much damage if not more in the case of oberon. As far as DPS goes, I can only think of one frame that does worse than she does for 99.9% of the game's content.

With a few tweaks, these problems can be remedied and she can be caught up to date.

Passive: Trinity can Instantly revive others. no limit on amount of times. The current passive is useless.

Well of Life: Creates an aura around trinity that heals trin and allies for 200HP upon cast, and  1.5% or 2% hp per second after. Timed, not channeled. 
Costs 25E, 20m radius around trinity, lasts 20 seconds. Everything affected by mods, except maybe the % per sec heal. 1 hand casted, half a second cast time, doesn't stop movement or gunfire.

     Augment - Pool of Life: Enemies killed in aura radius have a 25% chance to drop Health Orbs, with additional 5% chance to drop energy orbs. 

Why the change? Well of life as it is kind of sucks. There's literally no reason to use it over blessing anymore since it doesn't allow for insta kill with EV as it used to, unless you don't have the energy to cast blessing and need heals now. It's also clunky to use. These changes would make it useful but not more powerful than Oberon's heal.


Energy Vampire: Both it and the aug are fine.

Link: Double the duration to 24 seconds, increase number of links from 3 to 5 or 7. linked damage and procs gets 10x+ multiplier or the dance macabre treatment. Can be recast before duration ends. is able to be cast in the air and doesn't stop movement while casting. Damage mitigation stays at 75%. Augment stays the same. Range increased from 20 to 30. All except Damage mitigation affected by mods.

Why the changes?  Lets start with durations and how they affect trinity's playstyle. In short, it makes her initially low durations very high maintenance, even when you have around 300% duration. Constantly recasting buffs takes time out of attacking, slowing gameplay for trin way down, making her less fun to use over other tank frames that don't need to cast nearly as much and in general do more damage.

Then there's Link's damage. We all know reflected damage in this game is really really bad, even against unarmored targets. I've used Unairu passives+ all mods that affect reflected damage on an abating link trinity with a shield. Even at that 7k%+ reflection, it wasn't really good.  10x reflection, applied to procs especially, Link SHOULD BE Trinity's primary damage ability, so it needs to be able to actually do some damage with its mechanics. if 10X reflection still doesn't help much at all even after power str mods are applied, maybe give link's damage portion of the skill the Dance Macabre treatment, and convert the damage to what hurts the linked enemies most both in damage and in procs, and add some extra power to it per damage absorbed.

Then there's the number of linked targets. This is especially important for abating link. Essentially, you can only really have enhanced DPS towards 3 enemies at a time. Increasing the number of links increases overall KPS, even considering what we learned about link's mechanics from the radiation nuke days. This would still be less powerful than seeking shurikan with its augment, or banhee's sonic boon with its augment, and even pshychic bolts, at least as far as increasing DPS goes.

FInally there's the casting mechanic changes and range change. These are all to help her survive better. Being able to recast means she's not going to get one shot due to her ability being down between casts, which for anyone who plays her a lot, is a real danger. The range increase is to help deal with enemy snipers. at base 20m range, in many scenarios I find I get 1 shot across a room with both blessing and link up, because no enemies are close enough for link to trigger. Trinity has tight builds, so going for dur + more than 100% range is hard. 

Blessing:  Keep as is, but increase duration from 10 sec to 25 or 30.

Augment - Enlightenment: Blessing gives all affected a +100% additive skill range,  and innate 5% life steal effect on all gear.

Why the change? blessing for non high duration builds is nearly impossible to micromanage and continue fighting at the same time, making the ability an emergency heal ONLY in a game with super high damage enemies. An increase in duration would fix that. Consider that even nova has high DR and the ability to keep it up easier than trinity can keep up blessing. Increasing duration also allows for allies to wonder off and do their thing without having to worry as often. 


As a side not, Enlightenment Could replace Well of Life as an ability, if Well of Life's new effects are applied to Blessing. 

I'd like to know your thoughts (especially if you're employed at D.E.) 😄
 

[Lazarow]

The suggestions are good but Im not sure about the blessing augment seems kind of overpowered with the lifesteal and a lot of range

I also like trinity to be more used but support is dead and replaced with DPS. I made a topic about some changes so feel free to look into that

Spoiler

 

I also made another topic about trinity as to why use her, found here

Spoiler

 

 

Edited August 18, 2019 by Lazarow

[ShortCat]

Power creep

[Sannleikur]

12 hours ago, ShortCat said:

Power creep

more like power balance, since she really doesn't have power to begin with. Even with these changes she wouldn't out compete warfames intended for offence. 

 

13 hours ago, Lazarow said:

The suggestions are good but Im not sure about the blessing augment seems kind of overpowered with the lifesteal and a lot of range

I also like trinity to be more used but support is dead and replaced with DPS. I made a topic about some changes so feel free to look into that

  Hide contents

 

 

The augment I feel shouldn't be affected by other mods, otherwise it'd be way to powerful. the added range wouldn't act multiplicatively either. Say you have a 190% range build in the party. That person with this buff would get 290% range, instead of 380%. I've always felt we needed an ability somewhere in game that gave a range buff, besides the one we occasionally get from Void traces.  As far as the lifesteal goes. eh, maybe OP if combined with the Well of Life change, maybe just have one or the other I guess.

I read your thread, and searched feedback forum for trinity threads, and felt she needed some more in depth feedback and suggestions. 

[selig_fay]

11 часов назад, Sannleikur сказал:

more like power balance, since she really doesn't have power to begin with. Even with these changes she wouldn't out compete warfames intended for offence.

She doesn't need to compete with a warfames intended for offence, as she is a support.

I just imagine a quest with Umbra Trinity, where the frame is accusing the players that they made her a killer.

[NinjaZeku]

2 hours ago, zhellon said:

She doesn't need to compete with a warfames intended for offence, as she is a support.

In today's Warframe, a pure support Frame has little reason to be used, though.
(Operator + Arcanes makes a Trinity in my Squad generally useless to me personally.)

While being able to kill enemies en masse is very nearly always a good solution to your problems, if not the main goal.

But anyway, at the very least, a resounding YES to increased Link duration, because holy Stug, that 12 seconds is just ridiculous.
(I'd even support it being changed into a drain-per-second toggle, of course still allowing Energy gains from EV.)

[Teridax68]

My personal QoL changes for Trinity:

• Completely remove the remaining animation locks to Trinity's 1, 2, and 3, so that Well of Life and Energy Vampire are one-handed actions, and Link has no animation at all (she doesn't need an animation to sprout tethers from her waist).
• Remove the Energy cost to Energy Vampire (there is no real sense in having to spend Energy on a major Energy generator, and the cost is thus negligible in all but a select few scenarios).

The rest I think goes beyond the realm of convenience, and while I'd like Trinity to be upgraded in many respects (I completely agree that her timer management is irritating), I think she might need some deeper changes that may not always work in her favor, as her niche relies on some rather abusive mechanics (her 2 provides limitless Energy and her 4 means her team essentially can't die when around her). The new 1 proposed in the OP looks more useful than the current version, but would ultimately still be redundant in the face of the complete heal on her 4, so personally I'd find a way to migrate her damage mitigation there instead.

[TeaHawk]

On 2019-08-18 at 10:36 AM, Sannleikur said:

Augment - Enlightenment: Blessing gives all affected a +100% additive skill range,  and innate 5% life steal effect on all gear.

Why the change? blessing for non high duration builds is nearly impossible to micromanage and continue fighting at the same time, making the ability an emergency heal ONLY in a game with super high damage enemies. An increase in duration would fix that. Consider that even nova has high DR and the ability to keep it up easier than trinity can keep up blessing. Increasing duration also allows for allies to wonder off and do their thing without having to worry as often. 

It's even worse: blessing and energy vampire builds are literally anti synergistic. The longer the duration — the longer you wait to resupply the energy. Long-duration builds make trinity energy vampire tick intervals way too long. However, even with 200% duration blessing should be constantly recast. Making low-duration build makes it patently useless for anything but instant heal. That's sad. To note, you have better healers than Trinity much easier to play.

Edited August 19, 2019 by TeaHawk

[selig_fay]

4 часа назад, TeaHawk сказал:

It's even worse: blessing and energy vampire builds are literally anti synergistic. The longer the duration — the longer you wait to resupply the energy. Long-duration builds make trinity energy vampire tick intervals way too long. However, even with 200% duration blessing should be constantly recast. Making low-duration build makes it patently useless for anything but instant heal. That's sad. To note, you have better healers than Trinity much easier to play.

Did you know that you can kill mob and get all the energy from?

[TeaHawk]

26 minutes ago, zhellon said:

Did you know that you can kill mob and get all the energy from?

Which makes you unable to use same enemy to resupply.
Also, low duration build == almost maximized strength==more energy per pulse and per cast.

[Sannleikur]

On 2019-08-19 at 4:20 AM, zhellon said:

She doesn't need to compete with a warfames intended for offence, as she is a support.

I just imagine a quest with Umbra Trinity, where the frame is accusing the players that they made her a killer.

Which is why I intentionally suggested changes that would make it to where she still wouldn't compete with warframes intended for offense. 
With these changes, she'd just be able to increase her killing ability to a level in which a player with less than 100 hours in game could take her  on solo to sorties, or arbitrations and not have a hard time killing or staying alive. She'd still have less KPS than even a properly geared ember against armored lvl 100s, and ember is by far the worst of the Offense oriented frames. And that's the point. 

Also like the other person said, the best support a frame could give is more killing. Just look at every "support" oriented frame released in the last 3 years. Name one that can't out KPS Trinity. Hell, in many ways, they can both out KPS AND out support trinity. 

[TehGrief]

With the title of this thread being labeled as "QoL", I was surprised to find an almost complete rework for the majority of Trinity's abilities, instead of the proposed concept of "Quality of Life".

On 2019-08-18 at 4:36 AM, Sannleikur said:

Lets be real here, she's got 2 niches and otherwise doesn't see much use. She can babysit lures, and she can EV for xp farm parties. 

In every other scenario, she is outperformed by other frames, even when it comes to support. In rescue and defense missions, oberon and limbo are better choices than trinity as support frames and to boot can do as much damage if not more in the case of oberon. As far as DPS goes, I can only think of one frame that does worse than she does for 99.9% of the game's content.

With a few tweaks, these problems can be remedied and she can be caught up to date.

I would have to disagree; if you have personally interpreted her in this way, that is fine - but it simply isn't true.

Trinity has the express advantage of providing immediate support - there is no jumping through hoops or delay; when you trigger your abilities, you get the payout right away. Being able to instantly provide energy and/or health can be crucial in any faster-paced game-modes or higher level content.

In content like that, Oberon simply cannot sustain the healing on allies, and frames like Harrow can provide invulnerability and healing, but can often fall short providing energy. Trinity is reliable for what she does, which is support. Trinity is intended to be pure support. You cannot compare Trinity to Mesa and suggest that Mesa outperforms Trinity in damage... that's just stating the obvious. 

 

On 2019-08-18 at 4:36 AM, Sannleikur said:

Passive: Trinity can Instantly revive others. no limit on amount of times. The current passive is useless.

This is objectively too powerful for a passive. Passives should either provide minor support or, in the case of providing higher-scaling of support, should be limited to the amount they trigger/can be activated; Having no limit to the number of instant revives is just too strong.

I am, however, in support of Trinity's passive becoming instant revives; I have supported this idea on several other threads that had mentioned it - however, it would need to meet some specific requirements:

• I really enjoyed the concept and theme of Wukong's "Five Levels of Immortality" passive (granting him invulnerability and a random buff three times in a mission if he would receive fatal damage); It would be nice to see a similar passive given to Trinity:
  > Three seems like a good number - maintain three instant revives per mission (used before the instant revives from Mending Soul).
  > An incredibly minor buff would be nice, but I believe the instant revive is enough.
• Unlike the Vazarin school's Mending Soul node, the instant revives should NOT be usable on Trinity herself - only allies.
• Additionally, the instant revives from Triage (Trinity's passive) should only affect warframes, not companions or other non-Tenno allies.

 

On 2019-08-19 at 9:12 AM, Teridax68 said:

My personal QoL changes for Trinity:

• Completely remove the remaining animation locks to Trinity's 1, 2, and 3, so that Well of Life and Energy Vampire are one-handed actions, and Link has no animation at all (she doesn't need an animation to sprout tethers from her waist).
• Remove the Energy cost to Energy Vampire (there is no real sense in having to spend Energy on a major Energy generator, and the cost is thus negligible in all but a select few scenarios).

Fantastic suggestions - these are actually quality of life changes!

Having her [1], [2], and [3] become one-handed abilities would indeed be nice to see; I have noticed, even after being able to cast in the air, that it can still feel rather clunky at times.

I suppose it really doesn't make sense to have an energy cost applied to Energy Vampire, though, that was probably just a design method in the vanilla game that abilities cost the set amount of energy at each level. It would be nice to see it changed. 

[Sannleikur]

@TehGriefI know it's kind of obvious, me being the OP, but I strongly disagree with virtually all of your criticisms. 
 

15 hours ago, TehGrief said:

With the title of this thread being labeled as "QoL", I was surprised to find an almost complete rework for the majority of Trinity's abilities, instead of the proposed concept of "Quality of Life".

I consider my changes, with the exception of the augment of Enlightenment and the proposed idea that it could replace Trinity's 1 if blessing gains a Heal over time, to be by definition QoL changes. I consider a rework to where multiple skills are completely changed and does something barely similar or completely different from what it did before. I consider QoL changes to be minor changes to skills which keep the same basic functionality. I'm pretty confident that many people have around the same idea on what QoL and rework mean. That being said, for convenience, I've heard the terms being used interchangeably by D.E. , probably because "rework" is a lot easier to say than "Quality of Life changes". 

 

15 hours ago, TehGrief said:

I would have to disagree; if you have personally interpreted her in this way, that is fine - but it simply isn't true.

Trinity has the express advantage of providing immediate support - there is no jumping through hoops or delay; when you trigger your abilities, you get the payout right away. Being able to instantly provide energy and/or health can be crucial in any faster-paced game-modes or higher level content.

In content like that, Oberon simply cannot sustain the healing on allies, and frames like Harrow can provide invulnerability and healing, but can often fall short providing energy. Trinity is reliable for what she does, which is support. Trinity is intended to be pure support. You cannot compare Trinity to Mesa and suggest that Mesa outperforms Trinity in damage... that's just stating the obvious. 

I'm not sure  how this counteracts my original points, the main one being that she's a niche frame for rare scenarios for most players. The thing is for 99.99% of the game, most players don't get as much benefit from heals or EV as they would from an extra killer, or from being the killer themselves. Because of this, Frames with similar but milder support skills, but also abilities that increase overall KPS tend to be preferred. It's important to remember that energy and health are rarely ever issues outside of a handful of scenarios. Proc immunity tends to be more sought after than an instant heal+ DR buff. Zenurik, Magus Elevate, Arcane Grace,  Arcane Energize, and a few mods tend to further impede on Trinity's overall role. Why bring a trinity to any mission below 100 if you're not spamming your 4 and not in danger of being one shot?

 

15 hours ago, TehGrief said:

This is objectively too powerful for a passive. Passives should either provide minor support or, in the case of providing higher-scaling of support, should be limited to the amount they trigger/can be activated; Having no limit to the number of instant revives is just too strong.

I am, however, in support of Trinity's passive becoming instant revives; I have supported this idea on several other threads that had mentioned it - however, it would need to meet some specific requirements:

• I really enjoyed the concept and theme of Wukong's "Five Levels of Immortality" passive (granting him invulnerability and a random buff three times in a mission if he would receive fatal damage); It would be nice to see a similar passive given to Trinity:
  > Three seems like a good number - maintain three instant revives per mission (used before the instant revives from Mending Soul).
  > An incredibly minor buff would be nice, but I believe the instant revive is enough.
• Unlike the Vazarin school's Mending Soul node, the instant revives should NOT be usable on Trinity herself - only allies.
• Additionally, the instant revives from Triage (Trinity's passive) should only affect warframes, not companions or other non-Tenno allies.

Wow. Maybe as a vet my experience is vastly different from non vets, but I barely see revive speed as having any meaningful impact on the game, plus people can insta revive themselves between 4 and 9 times per mission. As far as passives go, I thought the one I suggested was rather weak and only a mild convenience that fit Trinity's theme.

As far as Wukong's new passive - I kinda hate it. He had full immortality before, his new passive is too random in its buffs and is a mockery of what he used to be. As a side note, overall his rework makes him more fun, but it was a definite overall nerf for him. He was able to red crit into the millions before and was fully immortal. He can now red crit in the 10s of millions but staying alive to when the difference between 1mil damage and 10m  damage on armored targets matters is considerably more difficult.