A fix for the Kohm?

[(XBOX)KayAitch]

The Kohm is in kind of a unique place - it has just enough riven dispo so that a status riven can give it 100%.

This makes a massive difference to the weapon. Without that magic 100% it's still really good for it's MR, but only OK overall. Not MR fodder, but not by a lot.

The problem is that the Kohm+riven combo is really popular, popular enough that the riven should have been nerfed twice over. However, nerf it and the Kohm can't reach that magic 100%, making it a hard nerf for the weapon. Enough that few people will continue to use it and the dispo goes back up on the next pass, leaving it stuck bouncing dispo.

So, the fix: release a Prisma Kohm or Kohm Wraith, about MR12-14 and not easy to get, (maybe on a par with the Gorgon Wraith). Give that new gun the 30% base status (and maybe a utility plus too, like higher ammo cap or shorter reload, it can't be too OP).

This takes the meta Kohm build out of the riven balancing. On the next riven pass the disposition can drop to match the popularity without making it bounce back on the pass after that (as some folks will still be using the Wraith/Prisma variant).

There are already a ton of discussions on here about whether riven disposition should exist in the first place, or should be fixed forever once you have unveiled the riven, please let's keep that out of the responses here.

[Tiltskillet]

1 hour ago, (XB1)KayAitch said:

Give that new gun the 30% base status

It'd be very amusing if that was raised all the way to 46%.  Ok, more reasonably,  36%.  Three dual stat mods get you 100% without a riven.  Chaos ensues in the kohm riven market, but who can object, really?  It's a buff, not a nerf. 😛

Although none of this would be  an issue if pellet status chance had smooth progression.

[(XBOX)KayAitch]

31 minutes ago, Tiltskillet said:

It'd be very amusing if that was raised all the way to 46%.  Ok, more reasonably,  36%

I'd rather they fixed other issues with it, like make the spin up faster, increase mag size, or ammo pool, or ideally built in ammo conversion (like the Lenz) at a rate that suits the Kohm (as shotgun ammo drops in amounts that will feed a Tigris or Exergis, but not the 4 shells a shot, 4 shots a second Kohm).

[Tiltskillet]

Just now, (XB1)KayAitch said:

I'd rather they fixed other issues with it, like make the spin up faster, increase mag size, or ammo pool, or ideally built in ammo conversion (like the Lenz) at a rate that suits the Kohm (as shotgun ammo drops in amounts that will feed a Tigris or Exergis, but not the 4 shells a shot, 4 shots a second Kohm).

True, but personally I like its ammo problem.  (Also fond of it on the Phantasma, for instance.)  Although I could see raising the pool some on an advanced version.

[bibmobello]

The only fix should be to give it the real riven disposition it deserves, 2 or 3, because they shamelessly wrote they haven't nerfed its riven disposition on purpose.

[George_PPS]

If you think it’s OP with Riven, just don’t use any Riven with it. You can also nerf your own build by use just 7 Mods and you can still hit that 100%SC with a Riven. 

[bibmobello]

4 hours ago, George_PPS said:

If you think it’s OP with Riven, just don’t use any Riven with it. You can also nerf your own build by use just 7 Mods and you can still hit that 100%SC with a Riven. 

It's not OP, try 1 hour 50.000 index  with the Khom. OP are only some streamers, Founders able to alter the riven disposition...

Edited August 20, 2019 by bibmobello

[000l000]

Le 18/08/2019 à 15:43, (XB1)KayAitch a dit :

The Kohm is in kind of a unique place - it has just enough riven dispo so that a status riven can give it 100%.

This makes a massive difference to the weapon. Without that magic 100% it's still really good for it's MR, but only OK overall. Not MR fodder, but not by a lot.

The problem is that the Kohm+riven combo is really popular, popular enough that the riven should have been nerfed twice over. However, nerf it and the Kohm can't reach that magic 100%, making it a hard nerf for the weapon. Enough that few people will continue to use it and the dispo goes back up on the next pass, leaving it stuck bouncing dispo.

So, the fix: release a Prisma Kohm or Kohm Wraith, about MR12-14 and not easy to get, (maybe on a par with the Gorgon Wraith). Give that new gun the 30% base status (and maybe a utility plus too, like higher ammo cap or shorter reload, it can't be too OP).

This takes the meta Kohm build out of the riven balancing. On the next riven pass the disposition can drop to match the popularity without making it bounce back on the pass after that (as some folks will still be using the Wraith/Prisma variant).

There are already a ton of discussions on here about whether riven disposition should exist in the first place, or should be fixed forever once you have unveiled the riven, please let's keep that out of the responses here.

First Kohm isn't that better on a full status build. You can strip enough armor with less status and tbh its slash damages aren't that great without critical so applying lots of them won't help either. fire rate is a good alternative too, it makes this shotgun work more like an assault rifle. I wouldn't end with explosive too cause aiming at heads with enough critical is also making the Kohm quite a lethal weapon - It's a damn precise shotgun.

Second a Prisma Kohm would be nice but definitely a bad idea balance wise. This weapon is already a monster, i can't imagine it with even better stats. 😮

Maybe it would end like the Opticor, not an enhanced version but a changed one.

Edited August 20, 2019 by 000l000

[(XBOX)Zweimander]

I think they should just buff its status chance and then reduce the disposition. The fact that its dispo has not changed because of its dependence of 100% status is based off a riven is just silly!

[(PSN)NemitheNem]

They are probably gonna nerd the kohm dispo soon--the motus mod can pump you up to 100% status

Edited August 20, 2019 by (PS4)NemitheNem
Autocorrupt

[Lone_Dude]

Welcome to the riven baits, friend.

[George_PPS]

2 hours ago, (PS4)NemitheNem said:

They are probably gonna nerd the kohm dispo soon--the motus mod can pump you up to 100% status

Many 100%SC builds aren’t actually that great. The current disposition of Kohm is very balanced. That’s why its disposition has been maintained. 

Edited August 20, 2019 by George_PPS

[(XBOX)KayAitch]

3 hours ago, (PS4)NemitheNem said:

They are probably gonna nerd the kohm dispo soon--the motus mod can pump you up to 100% status

So can Nano Applicator. Damn annoying to use though. 

1 hour ago, George_PPS said:

Many 100%SC builds aren’t actually that great.

Yeah, I know, but some are really good, and most elevate an otherwise MR5 weapon to sortie 3 levels.

1 hour ago, George_PPS said:

That’s why its disposition has been maintained

DE have said that it's disposition should be lower based on popularity, but chose to keep it specifically because of the status:

And that's the problem I'm trying to fix: "small disposition changes had the chance to make a much larger impact on these weapons, so we have left them as is.” 

By adding a new variant we add a little bit of power creep (oh noes, power creep in Warframe whatever next), but then can balance the rivens.

 

[(PSN)NemitheNem]

1 hour ago, (XB1)KayAitch said:

So can Nano Applicator. Damn annoying to use though

You can't compare a fricken acrolyte mod to something that can be farmed at any time in terms of accessibility.

[(PSN)haphazardlynamed]

Need to rework the way Status Chance interacts with multi-projectile weapons in general.

the non-linear behavior where 100% suddenly makes Every pellet proc while 99 only gets 1 or 2 is kinda broken.

as it is, all our shotguns have become balanced based on an Edge Case, an Exception to the calculation.

 

[Tiltskillet]

Just now, (PS4)haphazardlynamed said:

Need to rework the way Status Chance interacts with multi-projectile weapons in general.

the non-linear behavior where 100% suddenly makes Every pellet proc while 99 only gets 1 or 2 is kinda broken.

as it is, all our shotguns have become balanced based on an Edge Case, an Exception to the calculation.

 

DE's been so overt about (mostly) leaving shotgun dispos un-nerfed, I have some hope this is on their to do list.  Although even if that's true, it still could mean it  gets deferred a long, looong time.

[(XBOX)KayAitch]

9 hours ago, (PS4)NemitheNem said:

You can't compare a fricken acrolyte mod to something that can be farmed at any time in terms of accessibility

Ha, yeah, I forgot. I've had it for ages and forgot it was such a pain to obtain.

Both are a pain to use though, either constant double jumping or spamming a 1-handed cheap ability.

Wisp is perfectly suited to both (and I tried both) but can't use the Kohm because her fire rate boost makes it both devastating and run out of ammo in about 15s.

5 hours ago, (PS4)haphazardlynamed said:

Need to rework the way Status Chance interacts with multi-projectile weapons in general

I agree entirely, that's a much bigger change though.

3 hours ago, Tiltskillet said:

DE's been so overt about (mostly) leaving shotgun dispos un-nerfed, I have some hope this is on their to do list

See the link I shared in a previous post: they've kept the Kohm and Detron at higher dispos, but nerfed everything else.

I mean, Tigris rivens are less good than most regular mods, and are pretty much useless without a perfect roll and just the right build for it.

Edited August 21, 2019 by (XB1)KayAitch

[-VS-Airikr]

your suggestion doesnt fix the Kohm, you're just looking for a way to get a 100% SC Kohm variant without paying for a riven.

is the decision to purposely not change kohm's dispo bad? absolutely yeah, it goes right against what DE previously claimed the system to be.
Does your suggestion fix anything? No, no, it doesnt.

go for the proc chance mechanic on multi pellet weapons instead. that is the root of your problem.

[Tiltskillet]

9 hours ago, (XB1)KayAitch said:

See the link I shared in a previous post: they've kept the Kohm and Detron at higher dispos, but nerfed everything else.

I mean, Tigris rivens are less good than most regular mods, and are pretty much useless without a perfect roll and just the right build for it.

A Tigris nerf would have been before my time, but since you bring it up I'll point out that  that the Tigris received a dispo buff in the most recent review.   

I'd consider the last three  and especially the last two dispo rounds more indicative of DE's current philosophy than anything before that.

In that time, the only pellet shotgun I can find that's been nerfed was the Strun, which was in the first of those updates back in November.  There's  the Astilla and Arca Plasmor, but these aren't pertinent to the pellet status chance issue.  Maybe I've missed a secondary shotgun dispo nerf? * But afaict, everything else has been left the same or, in a few cases, buffed.

 

* edit: forgot the pyrana.

Edited August 21, 2019 by Tiltskillet

[(XBOX)KayAitch]

2 hours ago, Tiltskillet said:

A Tigris nerf would have been before my time, but since you bring it up I'll point out that  that the Tigris received a dispo buff in the most recent review.

Ha ha, yes. It went from lowest disposition in the game (0.5) to tied lowest disposition in the game (0.55), mainly because other weapons have started to catch up and it's become slightly less meme dominant.

 

2 hours ago, Tiltskillet said:

In that time, the only pellet shotgun I can find that's been nerfed was the Strun, which was in the first of those updates back in November

Also Corinth in April.

3 hours ago, Tiltskillet said:

I'd consider the last three  and especially the last two dispo rounds more indicative of DE's current philosophy than anything before that

Yes, and they seem much more transparent about what and why, which is good. I'd still like to see the actual stats they go by.

As far as I know current riven dispositions on shotguns match usage except for the Kohm and the Detron (and maybe Exergis because it's still relatively new).

8 hours ago, Airikr said:

your suggestion doesnt fix the Kohm, you're just looking for a way to get a 100% SC Kohm variant without paying for a riven

I'm old. I've loads of rivens. I'm asking for everyone to be able to get a 100% Kohm without a riven because the riven market is a crazy tulip mania mess.

Nobody should have to buy a riven to make a weapon work. That's why DE nerf Rubico and Lanka rivens so hard (they don't want a single-weapon must-have riven market), and why they will probably nerf the Kohm eventually.

9 hours ago, Airikr said:

go for the proc chance mechanic on multi pellet weapons instead. that is the root of your problem

Yeah, that's a much bigger change, and a much more complicated change, and a much more contraversial change.

I mean, what they should do is show every pellet shotgun with per-pellet stats and a pellet count. Multishot increases the pellet count, status chance applies the same increase per pellet (like crit currently does).

Problem there is no chance any shogun will get close to 100% every pellet chance. Most will do a few percent per pellet. It's a hard nerf for every current >=30% shotgun.

There's ways round that, but it's a much bigger problem.