Should DE take time to fix existing flaws instead of new content?

[Gofretko]

On 2019-08-19 at 9:52 PM, peterc3 said:

During this downtime, do you commit to spending the amount of money others would have spent during this time except they weren't drawn in by new shinies?

Yes. Me and my wife always play with boosters which are basically a monthly subscription. We support DE and the game, and our grind is more bearable. Win-win.

[Teridax68]

Why not both? I'm not sure why we're still having this kind of discussion when DE has released massive updates in the past that aimed precisely to update older content more than anything else: we got Specters of the Rail, which completely reorganized the Star Chart, we got multiple massive weapon balance patches, and more recently we got the Jovian Concord, which gave us some new content, but mostly focused on improving the Corpus Gas City tileset. The devs didn't have to just drop everything else in the process to deliver this stuff, and we've been enjoying content releases alongside those updates, so really, there should always be some effort dedicated towards improving existing content, alongside new content releases. The only time this didn't happen was when DE put all hands on deck to deliver Fortuna, and that's what gave us the content drought everyone hated.

[Vox_Preliator]

On 2019-08-21 at 2:43 AM, Blexander said:

-Snip-

Are you sure?  Do you have any other examples?

Grineer Void Sabotage can spawn the map-scrambling Regulators wedged way up near the ceiling, it's not a bug with mapping, if anything it's a bug with Regulators trying to float up as high as possible.

[Blexander]

3 hours ago, Vox_Preliator said:

Are you sure?  Do you have any other examples?

Grineer Void Sabotage can spawn the map-scrambling Regulators wedged way up near the ceiling, it's not a bug with mapping, if anything it's a bug with Regulators trying to float up as high as possible.

So, apparently, you were right. Regulators were nearly invisible without a codex scanner, they blend in too much. On the other hand, that means there's a different bug. Enemies don't spawn out of the portal as much if the 2 regulators are left alive. It might be unrelated.

I still find the whole thing weird. Like, they only spawn/mess with the map in this room (and the 1 room on Mars tilesets) as far as I've experienced.

[Birdframe_Prime]

You know, it genuinely staggers me that this question keeps popping up when we've literally had the question answered for us.

DE did, in fact, listen to our feedback at the end of 2017 and for the entire first half of 2018 focused on fixing the existing content and not on releasing new content. This resulted in one thing and one thing only; between the main Primary and Secondary updates of that winter (2017 to 2018) there was literally only three pieces of content released that year, with Sanctuary Onslaught (planned before the year started) in April, The Sacrifice quest in June, and after that no other major content until October with the Fortuna update.

They literally pushed back all their main content production in order to fix bugs and work on old content for months and do you know what happened? Absolutely. Nothing. Not a single thing for 10 months of the year apart from a two hour story quest and a variant on Survival that resets your stats every two minutes.

A lot of things were released in 2018 that were already planned, a couple of reworks, four Warframes and their weapons, four Primed frames and their Primed weapons, a few Tennogen updates and a couple of Deluxe Skins.

There were a lot of bug-fixes, though. There were 41 separate updates that did very little but bug fixes between January and April alone, at which point there was Sanctuary Onslaught. After that there were a further 23 updates that did very little but Tennogen and bugfixes between SO and The Sacrifice. After The Sacrifice update, there were 46 separate updates that did little more than bugfixes, release Primes or that one notable 10 minute interactive cinematic The Chimera Prologue that we got. This took us all the way through to October and Fortuna.

There were a lot of updates, a lot of bug-fixes, and DE did exactly what we asked them to. Updated and bug-fixed existing content while bringing out only the regularly scheduled new content that they had already promised.

But because of this 2018 saw the biggest concentrated dry spell of content for the game and we have the stats (from Steam at least) showing that players left and left and left. With a few returning for each Warframe or interactive cinematic released, but until Fortuna actually came out and offered new content, a new boss, new factions to grind for, new pets and new weapons to build, Warframe did not do well.

Asking DE to stop releasing content and work on old stuff exclusively has been done. It was a bad time for anyone that had already completed the majority of the game's content. Anyone sitting above MR 20 at the time noticed it. Content creators for the game made video after video on it, the lack of anything new strangled the game.

So no.

Having gone through the exact results of asking DE to not produce new content, and instead concentrate on fixing the existing content, I never, ever, ever want to see that happen again in Warframe.

It goes nowhere.

I would rather have regular updates, ones that fix a few bugs and introduce a few new things, with something happening every month, with development happening every month, than ever get DE to stop one in favour of the other.

Some bugs take a while to be fixed, some are accelerated by players complaining about them more, development time will never stop being arbitrary on the next Cosmetic or the next Weapon or the next Warframe. And the massive, game-altering updates, like Melee 3.0, like Empyrean, like the Duviri Paradox, will never stop being these behemoths that DE have to whittle down over the course of years.

But I would vastly rather have each increment of the changes, bug fixes and content, dropped in pieces, regularly, as they can do each task in turn. Never again do we say to DE 'we know better than you how to spend your time on this game', because historically, based on them actually listening to us, we don't.

[Femuru]

8 minutes ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

You know, it genuinely staggers me that this question keeps popping up when we've literally had the question answered for us.

DE did, in fact, listen to our feedback at the end of 2017 and for the entire first half of 2018 focused on fixing the existing content and not on releasing new content. This resulted in one thing and one thing only; between the main Primary and Secondary updates of that winter (2017 to 2018) there was literally only three pieces of content released that year, with Sanctuary Onslaught (planned before the year started) in April, The Sacrifice quest in June, and after that no other major content until October with the Fortuna update.

They literally pushed back all their main content production in order to fix bugs and work on old content for months and do you know what happened? Absolutely. Nothing. Not a single thing for 10 months of the year apart from a two hour story quest and a variant on Survival that resets your stats every two minutes.

A lot of things were released in 2018 that were already planned, a couple of reworks, four Warframes and their weapons, four Primed frames and their Primed weapons, a few Tennogen updates and a couple of Deluxe Skins.

There were a lot of bug-fixes, though. There were 41 separate updates that did very little but bug fixes between January and April alone, at which point there was Sanctuary Onslaught. After that there were a further 23 updates that did very little but Tennogen and bugfixes between SO and The Sacrifice. After The Sacrifice update, there were 46 separate updates that did little more than bugfixes, release Primes or that one notable 10 minute interactive cinematic The Chimera Prologue that we got. This took us all the way through to October and Fortuna.

There were a lot of updates, a lot of bug-fixes, and DE did exactly what we asked them to. Updated and bug-fixed existing content while bringing out only the regularly scheduled new content that they had already promised.

But because of this 2018 saw the biggest concentrated dry spell of content for the game and we have the stats (from Steam at least) showing that players left and left and left. With a few returning for each Warframe or interactive cinematic released, but until Fortuna actually came out and offered new content, a new boss, new factions to grind for, new pets and new weapons to build, Warframe did not do well.

Asking DE to stop releasing content and work on old stuff exclusively has been done. It was a bad time for anyone that had already completed the majority of the game's content. Anyone sitting above MR 20 at the time noticed it. Content creators for the game made video after video on it, the lack of anything new strangled the game.

So no.

Having gone through the exact results of asking DE to not produce new content, and instead concentrate on fixing the existing content, I never, ever, ever want to see that happen again in Warframe.

It goes nowhere.

I would rather have regular updates, ones that fix a few bugs and introduce a few new things, with something happening every month, with development happening every month, than ever get DE to stop one in favour of the other.

Some bugs take a while to be fixed, some are accelerated by players complaining about them more, development time will never stop being arbitrary on the next Cosmetic or the next Weapon or the next Warframe. And the massive, game-altering updates, like Melee 3.0, like Empyrean, like the Duviri Paradox, will never stop being these behemoths that DE have to whittle down over the course of years.

But I would vastly rather have each increment of the changes, bug fixes and content, dropped in pieces, regularly, as they can do each task in turn. Never again do we say to DE 'we know better than you how to spend your time on this game', because historically, based on them actually listening to us, we don't.

actually what staggers me is why ppl think releasing "new content" will keep the game alive when its probly whats going to kill it. kuva survival was new content, sanctuary was new content, arbitration was new content, disruption was new content, and archwing was new content b4 but the reason ppl yelled "content drought" was not because there is a content drought but because the content is just bland cheese with no taste so no one even looks or cares about it. even to quests doesnt hold as well to the 2nd dream because the narrative doesnt answer a long time question but only leaves ppl with more questions that they probly have to wait a year or 2 to even be answered with another question with still little to no character writing or the complex mysterious charm writing. that mean it will have this bad tasting outcome every time if they dont properly change their formula not by some flashy video of "new stuff" but core systems in place such as the way the way enemies function on a deep level, the way story is being written/given, several mechanics that need to just be looked at. bugs is one thing but broken/uninteresting gameplay is entirely another and warframe is slowly losing its spark cuz its turning away from refined gameplay to walk a whole different path. so what do i mean? warframe actually gained traction because they improved and fixed up the game by visuals, mechanics, enemies, animations, and even started its good questline with the 2nd dream way back when and that was when it was barely noticeable but we noticed it and hoped the game was going in the right direction. fast forward abit it changed completely to nothing but powercreep with "new modes" that had the same stale combat only to become more stale against out power, sometimes with more problems which makes a horrible balance which is also when ppl complaints really kicked off. balance is a big issue and balance doesnt just mean "who is stronger than who" its how the game functions as a whole on how the game even feels, b4 it was a miracle if we even reached lvl 100 working together but now its like we can get to lvl 1000 that brought out scaling issues, b4 we dint just cheese to speedrun everything possible but now there is just bad pacing that we go through stuff burnt out with stuff that makes everything feel like no content like how open world suffered.

the problem lies within the core, the formula, the very layout that needs to be properly adjusted or every "new content" is just a hype ball thats a double edged sword cuz they may gain a small burst of players but it will never retain them (not to mention there is only so many ppl to keep new ones coming and leaving) and how some other free games come to survive is by retaining more consistent players that just buy skins daily but hey go play something else right? line over used but still hold relevance, millions of losers but only a few thousand stay but why? cuz no matter how much content you have if it doesnt hold to ppl standards then it isnt gonna fly. i still see warframe like Icarus because they keep jumping over on what theyre capable of, all these mechanics and systems with little use or work put into them to just go farther with "new content" with no foundation work may lead to the small rise of success but wont make them stay afloat. several games have alot less and i mean alot less content than warframe but are more successful because they tune out and focus on the core gameplay mechanics on what they want to be when warframe grab a tiny bit of everything in hopes it mesh. warframe has the good will of its players so hype releases will only work for so long but if marketing hype defines a game then games like anthem would be successful while games like apex would of died in just 2 weeks but that isnt the case and what ppl search for is a finely balanced made game, if it has the quality more ppl will flock to it without a word. free means only 1 thing to me and that how lenient ill be towards the micro transaction but in the end p2p or f2p more ppl will choose the better quality product overwatch(p2p)>paladins(f2p), heartstone(f2p)>artifact(p2p), smash(p2p)>brawlhalla(f2p), fortnite(f2p)>pubg(p2p), monster hunter(p2p)>dauntless(f2p), wow/ff14(p2p)>most mmorpg(f2p), and even if no one wants to hear it but even destiny doing better than warframe. sure u can love what u want but in reality some games are doing better for a reason and i dont wanna bash a game for the sake of bashing it but i wanna just see games improve where theyre really lacking for a better outcome as a whole and in reality warframe is just becoming more quantity over quality.

[Birdframe_Prime]

9 hours ago, SutomuDrgn said:

the problem lies within the core, the formula, the very layout that needs to be properly adjusted or every "new content" is just a hype ball thats a double edged sword cuz they may gain a small burst of players but it will never retain them

Oh, I'm completely with you on that.

People screamed 'endgame' at the Devs, so they created content that, with their current engine and current game, is repeatable, high level content that has reasons to play it such as massive Affinity gains in ESO for Focus farming and basic levelling in SO with the sheer concentration of enemies, plus the Kuva supply when a player has completed all of the current hourly Siphons. But given that it only relies on the current game, it isn't challenging, it isn't actual 'endgame'. There is no endgame content in Warframe because there is no challenge in Warframe.

Without providing content to keep players playing in a repeatable fashion, with rewards that they can find a use for each time, rewards they can use as resources to fuel that gameplay, the game is going to die.

But also without providing core updates, like the Melee 3.0, like enemy scaling, like a Damage 3.0 system that can introduce actual skill, all of that, the game is going to die.

And also without providing new ways to play the game, with new Warfarmes, new Weapons and reworking old Warframes to the current level, the game is going to die.

The issue is that this can't be done fast, no matter what else they stop to make any of these aspects faster. No matter what else we, the players, tell them to stop producing they won't get these changes, these new frames, that new content done faster.

Which is why I would rather make sure that each and every stage of those updates is implemented when it happens, even if it's things that cause as many awkward problems as they do improvements (Melee 2.997 springs to mind, it causes players that don't realise that Channelling and Blocking are not staying in the game and are instead being replaced with 3.0 no end of issues. It causes them to have to buff functions like Valkyr's Hysterical Assault so that their new switching mechanic doesn't cause her to accidentally kill herself just for using it. But the system is still an improvement on the way to a much bigger improvement).

I would rather see a few bug fixes and a new incremental update towards scaling us and our enemies better every two weeks for a year, than see only bug-fixes for four months between a single, island-based content drop like ESO and a single story Quest, and then a full year of only that before one of the core gameplay reworks happens.

These improvements to the game have to be made, yes, you're right. Without them, the game will die.

And you're right about that. But it's also why you're wrong about there not being a content drought. There was one, the Devs even apologised for it, but it existed because we asked for it in the first place. We asked them to stop one aspect of the game's development in favour of another, and it caused enough of a problem that the Devs actually apologised for it being so much of a problem.

New frames, Prime frames, new weapons and reworks, those are just improvements and variety on how you approach the content, they aren't content in and of themselves, not entirely.

New game modes, ESO and SO, Arbitrations, the Kuva Fortress, they're attempts and content, but they're all islands. You stop playing the core game and go to these islands in order to get something specific out of them, they aren't integrated with what we normally do in Warframe and that in itself is not self-sustaining.

So having that balance, having the team working on all aspects of the game, the fixes, the core updates and the content, at their own pace, that's the only way that this game will sustain itself.

Actual quality improvement, actual fixes, and actual content. And there is no stopping one to accelerate the other, it doesn't work.

[Femuru]

26 minutes ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Oh, I'm completely with you on that.

People screamed 'endgame' at the Devs, so they created content that, with their current engine and current game, is repeatable, high level content that has reasons to play it such as massive Affinity gains in ESO for Focus farming and basic levelling in SO with the sheer concentration of enemies, plus the Kuva supply when a player has completed all of the current hourly Siphons. But given that it only relies on the current game, it isn't challenging, it isn't actual 'endgame'. There is no endgame content in Warframe because there is no challenge in Warframe.

Without providing content to keep players playing in a repeatable fashion, with rewards that they can find a use for each time, rewards they can use as resources to fuel that gameplay, the game is going to die.

But also without providing core updates, like the Melee 3.0, like enemy scaling, like a Damage 3.0 system that can introduce actual skill, all of that, the game is going to die.

And also without providing new ways to play the game, with new Warfarmes, new Weapons and reworking old Warframes to the current level, the game is going to die.

The issue is that this can't be done fast, no matter what else they stop to make any of these aspects faster. No matter what else we, the players, tell them to stop producing they won't get these changes, these new frames, that new content done faster.

Which is why I would rather make sure that each and every stage of those updates is implemented when it happens, even if it's things that cause as many awkward problems as they do improvements (Melee 2.997 springs to mind, it causes players that don't realise that Channelling and Blocking are not staying in the game and are instead being replaced with 3.0 no end of issues. It causes them to have to buff functions like Valkyr's Hysterical Assault so that their new switching mechanic doesn't cause her to accidentally kill herself just for using it. But the system is still an improvement on the way to a much bigger improvement).

I would rather see a few bug fixes and a new incremental update towards scaling us and our enemies better every two weeks for a year, than see only bug-fixes for four months between a single, island-based content drop like ESO and a single story Quest, and then a full year of only that before one of the core gameplay reworks happens.

These improvements to the game have to be made, yes, you're right. Without them, the game will die.

And you're right about that. But it's also why you're wrong about there not being a content drought. There was one, the Devs even apologised for it, but it existed because we asked for it in the first place. We asked them to stop one aspect of the game's development in favour of another, and it caused enough of a problem that the Devs actually apologised for it being so much of a problem.

New frames, Prime frames, new weapons and reworks, those are just improvements and variety on how you approach the content, they aren't content in and of themselves, not entirely.

New game modes, ESO and SO, Arbitrations, the Kuva Fortress, they're attempts and content, but they're all islands. You stop playing the core game and go to these islands in order to get something specific out of them, they aren't integrated with what we normally do in Warframe and that in itself is not self-sustaining.

So having that balance, having the team working on all aspects of the game, the fixes, the core updates and the content, at their own pace, that's the only way that this game will sustain itself.

Actual quality improvement, actual fixes, and actual content. And there is no stopping one to accelerate the other, it doesn't work.

if i had to be honest i believe the "content drought" situation more appeared not from the stop of content but more of because it wasnt handled correctly. to get more into specifics is that they dint make a top of the priority list and we dint really see much change, in fact it might be possible to say it still went backwards because constant new content also created new problems in the process so the pile only look bigger to us. stuff like enemies ai/mechanics, systemic functions, combat flow, engaged conditions werent really touched while they basically work on things that seem to make no sense in the bigger picture such as nit picks to weapon changes which in all honesty many dint made sense. even during the content drought to fortuna we got sanctuary, arbitration, and the sacrifice which is why i say it wasnt really one but it still turned that way which leads to the factor new content wont be successful unless they follow a more proper organized formula which yes will take a long time but its better to go through a silent productive phase rather than go through these constant updates filled with more issues making the whole place alot louder and probly make things alot less productive in general. with those new mode additions i cant say they really had a silent phase where it was full production to revamp the game even after getting open worlds or nightwave its still the same outcome so it show that the current way isnt working. games like rainbow 6 or final fantasy 14 are probly great examples of how out of no where they just fully fixed up the game and ppl just flocked to them like crazy, still as i mentioned there was only 1 real time DE was silent most of the time just fixing the game and the game gained so much traction up till the 2nd dream then stopped that pathway.

so i wanna use some random examples how handling things poorly turns bad fast, while ppl at DE are amazing ppl but by god sometimes i think theyre just running around the office confused or unaware. when they choose to nerf ember for example well ppl werent happy cuz in overall balance of the game (which again isnt just always related to power but a overall feel of the game even outside of combat) it wasnt the priority when you look at the entire roster there are frames much more problematic while ember was technically still near the bottom nor was the issue of nuking looked at as a whole to fully understand but rather looked more like they just threw a dart at a poster to decide. when scott wanted to nerf blitz ppl arent happy cuz all they see is that they are gonna get less rewards and going through less content cuz really most enemies are cheesy we have to go through hundreds to feel like content while other games can just toss like 10 and keep ppl interested. even if nerfing blitz will fix pacing because it wasnt looked at as a whole so many ppl only saw this one narrow view of nerfed rather than balance cuz it wasnt a balanced choice without compensation. stuff like melee with the whole blocking/channeling issue kinda proves the current formula wont work by small nit picks because some things required to be looked/finished as a whole to be properly judged then changed or there are just more detours along the way that wouldnt had been an issue if it was completed as a whole to see where it really counter balance itself. then lets talk difficulty and they thought the only way to make things difficult to make things turn invulnerable like nullies, bosses, and drones or they make enemies with trivial abilities that wasnt made with a specific reason to fix why we cheese to only get cheesed again, which arent good design philosophy and enemies will never feel fun until they break everything down piece by piece. i had a dabble at trying to figure what would make good enemy design and i followed that pattern at first too but i learned that making difficult enemies to a game as a wild card and complex as warframe require breaking things to different categories of counter different kinds of cheese to make them more of combat engaged while still looking at the enemies roster as a whole defining each one one with a balanced purpose. warframe can have difficulty the problem was that it wasnt handled right but u could be right and it might be their engine holding them back but hopefully with word of their new engine coming its possible to maybe take a step forward with that area in the future. 

im not saying they arent allowed to ever make new content but how far the hole is in many different areas, i dont think they should and it already show that trying both to fixing and new content wont work cuz its simply going back and forth with no focus and it just looks more like random nit pick rather than proper overhaul or fixing. the list of things to fix is huge if we talking mechanics alone is probly a santa size list and when new content bring more issues will only hurt any progress they make that make the allusion they are taking steps backwards which also could be a cause of frustrated players. like i said complaints really started to rise not cuz of a pause period but it only followed the pattern of powercreep and new modes that solved no issues of the game but more likely brought new ones, i dont think this helping the team at DE but i think theyre just digging the hole bcuz the new modes arent self sustaining to sacrifice themselves to make enough of something that give the allusion that it feels sustaining. the old saying work smarter not harder is very important cuz at this point no new content feels worth it, even if they follow a route of new content then the only way it can succeed if make sure itself doesnt have the same problems as the rest of the game been continuing through but that is not likely cuz as its in core mechanics, entire enemy design, systemic purpose, proper pacing, combat engagement, and balancing issues all from the very bottom that needs to be fixed. any new content slows it down cuz when you have too many frames or modes only leave ppl divided on balancing that just clash with another potentially creating even more that spiral out of control but i dont think they can afford that anymore, more content means more work and ppl at DE dont have the man power. its not more the matter of stopping one over the other, im saying they have to follow a organized order of doing one before the other if they want to move forward cuz warframe issue is run very deep rn that new content wont bring anything in its current state and player retention wont properly hold otherwise.

[Birdframe_Prime]

1 hour ago, SutomuDrgn said:

simply going back and forth with no focus

Then let's get them focused.

DE did make an attempt at this, they brought out their whiteboard 'roadmap' at the beginning of the year, and they have hit a surprising amount of progress on it considering none of it had actual dates and deadlines. But even that wasn't actual focus. It was vague and completely arbitrary in terms of what they could work on first or last or in between.

Campaign to give them something to work on in each category. Do we want even more new Warframes? Not this year, so once Grendel and Gauss are out, get the team for Warframes on development for Reworks, Quality and Bug Fixes for Warframes that already exist. Do we want Duviri Paradox this year? No, we expect that later, get those people working on some Lore content, like better Nightwave story (they've actually done alright so far with The Emissary). Do we want to see Empyrean with a full update to all archwings? Yes, full steam ahead on that. Do we want to see the Melee update this year? Yes, we've wanted it since last year, let's get more focus on that.

Let's get an organised priority going for each different aspect. Fixes, Core and New Content. Because only with all of them actually focussing on each aspect, with a project at hand being given the relevant time it needs, will the game actually grow.

If anything, I'll compare this to the situation with Zephyr's Deluxe skin.

Hear me out, because this one's more anecdotal than anything.

I work in Print Design, I'm pretty good at it, and I've been here for around 16 years now. Print Design, you'd think, holds no correlation with Game Design, and you'd be right. Except Creative Design is universal. When Creative Design is your job, there are certain universal truths, and the first universal truth is that no matter the project, no matter how urgent or how lenient, it needs a deadline that is agreed upon and has time allotted to it in your schedule. That deadline can be a year from now, but it needs one because that allows the people working on it to actually time manage.

You're starting to see, I would guess, why I started my comment with 'let's get them focused'.

Zephyr's Deluxe was given to one of the Design team to do as a 'passion project' (DE's words, not mine) and also scheduled to do 'in his free time' (again, their words), and what this means it that it broke that first Truth. It had no deadline.

Every other project had a deadline, every other project had time scheduled, and each one of those took time away from the employee who had the passion project. Each one of those scheduled tasks was instantly more important than the thing that he was doing. Every single other task took priority, and this caused the initial fun he had with the concept, the improvement it received between January 2015 and June 2015, to just stagnate. He would have to come back to it every now and then, do a little bit, but it became a mill-stone around his neck, that project that was always hanging over him. He sometimes didn't even want to do it because whatever enthusiasm he had for the project at the start was just beaten out of him by time and dissociation.

It took DESteve's comment a few months ago, before Tennocon, that mentioned he'd said to the designer 'we may have to pry it from your cold dead hands' to jump-start the process again.

Lo and behold, only a few weeks ago, Zephyr's Deluxe appeared as a render again in a DevStream.

Hopefully, this means that the designer's drive has been revitalised, that he's going to be able to put some dedicated time into the piece, flesh out the details, maybe bring in some layered metallic work, some emissive energy, maybe those energy wings that he put on the concept art, and that might make for a really solid Deluxe piece.

But it's the same problem as the larger situation with the game.

Without a clear goal for each department, without us clearly asking for what we want next, what we want them to create, fix or rework, then the process will go slower. Projects will get left on the back-burner for years despite player interest, and then we see the overall decline begin to kick in.

So.

No to telling DE to stop new content. No to telling DE to stop reworks. No to telling DE to stop bug fixing.

Yes to telling them clearly, and in a united fashion, what we want to see from each.

What content needs to be created on priority, what rework needs to be on priority, what bugs need to be on priority.

Use their time. Manage it. In the broadest sense, because their own internal time management is their own deal ^^

[GmG-ITA]

20 hours ago, Blexander said:

So, apparently, you were right. Regulators were nearly invisible without a codex scanner, they blend in too much. On the other hand, that means there's a different bug. Enemies don't spawn out of the portal as much if the 2 regulators are left alive. It might be unrelated.

I still find the whole thing weird. Like, they only spawn/mess with the map in this room (and the 1 room on Mars tilesets) as far as I've experienced.

Latcher make spawn stop

[WellIHopeThisOneWorks]

Should they? absolutely. With how ungodly bloated this game is with it just getting more and more so every passing update, having just say, a dedicated update cycle even, where all of their resources are pooled into looking back and finding just the outdated/redundant systems, and either attempting to cleanly remove, or see what can be done to remaster those systems, would be fantastic.

The main issue, lies, In what. So many people scream about things that need changing, so many more scream about how everything should just stay the same. There's consensus that change needs to happen but no real firm 100% on what change should happen right now. 

Pets arguably need to be looked at, multitude of older frames need to get reworked (Vauban, Volt [now with Gauss coming out, at least a new more thematic two], Loki[to be more than just, press 2, be invis], Atlas, to name a few of my personal top picks), Older enemy AI need to be updated/revamped/improved. Specter AI needs improvement, Enemy scaling needs to worked on, Power creep leads the desire for the damage system to be seriously looked at (as you only go for like, a few damage types depending on enemy type, and the rest are just, not used do to mod economy/lack of use). The full Melee 3.0 still needs to be fully tweaked and released, old mission types need to be removed/revamped to be more main stream/grant interesting rewards. Archwing needs to figure out what the heck it wants to do, reward systems need to be revamped to allow for longer form endless missions to actually be meaningful. Older weapons need to be updated to the newer weapon standards for more viable options in older form what used to be 'late game' gear (Soma is the main thing that comes to mind for me). 

And even with all that I bet I'm still missing something to someone. All of this needs to be looked at, and all of it is arguably based on 'preference' on what needs to be looked at first. So most of the time, when it comes to updating, its a lot of just spinning wheels in trying to decide what to go after first and how, which is why its usually done in the background with what I assume to be smaller teams, just so that it can constantly be said that its 'getting worked on'.

But, to loop back to reiterate, yes, I think they should, the sheer number of topics that I could come up with above is a testament to that point. There just needs to be a clear 'what' that somehow needs to be established, defined, and stuck to. There also needs to be a defined standard for how things need to 'feel' in order for anything to really be addressed effectively, but that is a much larger, harder topic in and in of itself.

[Femuru]

6 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Then let's get them focused.

DE did make an attempt at this, they brought out their whiteboard 'roadmap' at the beginning of the year, and they have hit a surprising amount of progress on it considering none of it had actual dates and deadlines. But even that wasn't actual focus. It was vague and completely arbitrary in terms of what they could work on first or last or in between.

Campaign to give them something to work on in each category. Do we want even more new Warframes? Not this year, so once Grendel and Gauss are out, get the team for Warframes on development for Reworks, Quality and Bug Fixes for Warframes that already exist. Do we want Duviri Paradox this year? No, we expect that later, get those people working on some Lore content, like better Nightwave story (they've actually done alright so far with The Emissary). Do we want to see Empyrean with a full update to all archwings? Yes, full steam ahead on that. Do we want to see the Melee update this year? Yes, we've wanted it since last year, let's get more focus on that.

Let's get an organised priority going for each different aspect. Fixes, Core and New Content. Because only with all of them actually focussing on each aspect, with a project at hand being given the relevant time it needs, will the game actually grow.

If anything, I'll compare this to the situation with Zephyr's Deluxe skin.

Hear me out, because this one's more anecdotal than anything.

I work in Print Design, I'm pretty good at it, and I've been here for around 16 years now. Print Design, you'd think, holds no correlation with Game Design, and you'd be right. Except Creative Design is universal. When Creative Design is your job, there are certain universal truths, and the first universal truth is that no matter the project, no matter how urgent or how lenient, it needs a deadline that is agreed upon and has time allotted to it in your schedule. That deadline can be a year from now, but it needs one because that allows the people working on it to actually time manage.

You're starting to see, I would guess, why I started my comment with 'let's get them focused'.

Zephyr's Deluxe was given to one of the Design team to do as a 'passion project' (DE's words, not mine) and also scheduled to do 'in his free time' (again, their words), and what this means it that it broke that first Truth. It had no deadline.

Every other project had a deadline, every other project had time scheduled, and each one of those took time away from the employee who had the passion project. Each one of those scheduled tasks was instantly more important than the thing that he was doing. Every single other task took priority, and this caused the initial fun he had with the concept, the improvement it received between January 2015 and June 2015, to just stagnate. He would have to come back to it every now and then, do a little bit, but it became a mill-stone around his neck, that project that was always hanging over him. He sometimes didn't even want to do it because whatever enthusiasm he had for the project at the start was just beaten out of him by time and dissociation.

It took DESteve's comment a few months ago, before Tennocon, that mentioned he'd said to the designer 'we may have to pry it from your cold dead hands' to jump-start the process again.

Lo and behold, only a few weeks ago, Zephyr's Deluxe appeared as a render again in a DevStream.

Hopefully, this means that the designer's drive has been revitalised, that he's going to be able to put some dedicated time into the piece, flesh out the details, maybe bring in some layered metallic work, some emissive energy, maybe those energy wings that he put on the concept art, and that might make for a really solid Deluxe piece.

But it's the same problem as the larger situation with the game.

Without a clear goal for each department, without us clearly asking for what we want next, what we want them to create, fix or rework, then the process will go slower. Projects will get left on the back-burner for years despite player interest, and then we see the overall decline begin to kick in.

So.

No to telling DE to stop new content. No to telling DE to stop reworks. No to telling DE to stop bug fixing.

Yes to telling them clearly, and in a united fashion, what we want to see from each.

What content needs to be created on priority, what rework needs to be on priority, what bugs need to be on priority.

Use their time. Manage it. In the broadest sense, because their own internal time management is their own deal ^^

well sadly i dont think saying to get focused would be able to fix the whole scenario, there are just times u cant have everything at once and there are hard choices u need to pick cuz i dont think anime logic will save it by yelling ill save everyone. there are going to be times because DE dont choose who they are targeting that it only end up a mess because if you look at the endgame attempts it was not fully focused to veterans cuz they made it for everyone, same to open world that only made new players more confused, or nightwave that made ppl argue about hard/easy/annoying instead of following a organized pattern of what should be properly fixed/given to new player or veterans or casuals. now to the topic of nightwave is probly a well enough example how new content isnt working and while personally i actually just dont care about it either way, i understand why its not healthy for the game. ppl are going to say its too easy, its too hard, i say they are lazily recycling dull content that are just dailies while in some games itll work but it wont for warframe because it is a long grind progression game that is basically slapping on timegate over other gates and i think thats the wrong way to bait players to the game rather than making the game genuinely fun to play. i cant back the idea of new content if it already show for the past 2 years that it isnt working like arbitration, nightwave, disruption, sanctuary, kuva survival, or open world even and thats its only wearing players out rather than tackling the mountains of actual issues first but most importantly its wearing out their workers cuz if u toss out content that have no meaning only means they did all that for nothing to repeat the process wasting more money, time, and resources when other games have a singular piece of content that they just keep refining with less work but more money because its what ppl truly wanted, a quality game.

its probly going to be impossible for everyone to be in united fashion because no matter what aspect of life there is always someone opposing said idea, now i want to respect as many ppl opinion as possible and explain my reasoning for my stand point but i also accepted its genuinely impossible for the community to come together, thats fine though. sometimes it shouldnt always be about what we want though cuz in reality the vocal ppl arent the majority and is only a small proportion while im not saying our words have no value i think its important that their choices needs to be transparent and whats healthy for the game rather than random nit picks cuz as i said ppl will flock to a game regardless as long as its good quality gameplay. i like reworks, i like bug fixes, but i cant support new content when its only purpose in its current state is to bait more players or stall ppl with "content" that is just an illusion or damages the game by wearing both players and workers rather than making the game simply enjoyable again. there are games that barely need any new content survive cuz their quality is just up to par to what ppl expect from what the game wants to be and i thinks that would be a important lesson for DE, we could even look at destiny now on how simply fixing some stuff ppl had been upset about was a way players got back to the game and flourish even rather than b4 when activision puppet control of releasing a certain stream of samey content to only bait ppl wallets over quality. games like rainbow 6 and final fantasy 14 stopped content for a good while to revamp the game entirely which lead to the games pure success, even if ppl wont be happy with a "content drought" for a short while if they properly fix their formula i think thats the small price to pay for a successful route where the majority would end up satisfied finally that they wouldnt ever want to go through the same pattern of leaving from disappointment.