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I hate you for your Riven-System. Just that you know.


kazenioware

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4 hours ago, Xzorn said:

@YUNoJump

I can actually fault them for trying to make money when the method is predatory in nature and takes advantage of addictive behavior, aka gambling.

The thing is, the only way that players can spend Plat on the RNG aspect of Rivens is to buy boosters, which are pretty cheap and last a while. The big bucks come from people buying Plat to trade with, and that's not gambling, it's just normal trading.

4 hours ago, Xzorn said:

I often compare Path of Exile to Warframe because I started playing both in 2013. Path has come a much longer way and done a much better job of keeping it's veteran players coming back and interested with legitimately new challenge. Where Warframe has 0 interest. Path has developed their game in a way it can essentially last forever while Warframe is technically already over when it comes to scaling and difficulty with again no interest on improving that.

My point of comparing those stream numbers was the actual fact you mentioned. According to Steamcharts Warframe has more than double the avg players of Path yet a normal streamer stomps their official stream. Why?

Every 4 months Path gives it's steamers something to talk about with content that lasts 3-4 months before being added into the core game. They engage both new and veterans. Warframe takes 8 months and the content is done in a week. If it's fun to watch is up subjective. The difference in content play value is very much objective. PoE wins, every update. New builds, new mechanics and new items that aren't just throw away weapons because their damage system actually functions.

Path of Exile is WAY more complicated and deep than Warframe, as well as much more difficult in endgame. Veterans can stick around forever in PoE trying one of a hundred builds (just looking at that massive perk tree gives me nightmares), but Warframe has mandatory mods for every single build, and the best builds in the game are about 3 times as good as they need to be unless you're planning on living in Mot for a week. PoE's devs know exactly what they're doing with balance and adding new content that avoids power creep.

PoE gets more streamers because it has clear levels of skill in things like build-sense. Experienced PoE players/streamers can come up with all sorts of ingenious builds and show their audience how it works. Warframe has nothing of the sort, the most praiseworthy thing you could do is probably go several hours into an endless mission, which makes for terrible streaming. It's just the qualities of the game, both of these games get blown out of the water by any popular PvP game because amazing feats in those games are even more skillful and enjoyable to watch.

The other thing about PoE is that it's really more grindy than Warframe is, from what I can tell, and PoE players have a higher tolerance for grind because of it. Rivens are probably the grindiest part of Warframe (closely followed by ESO maybe), but all of PoE's progression is basically picking up little icons covered in stats, after they drop from various sources, and then randomly rerolling single stats until it's perfect. Granted you don't reroll the entire weapon, but the number of different things there are to reroll certainly counteracts that. That whole system of stat-grind really pushes PoE's playtime up.

4 hours ago, Xzorn said:

About Rivens though. I'm gunna send you a pic in a msg cuz I'm not allowed to post it here. This was taken after the introduction of Rivens.

You lemme know what you think and if you think DE is going to change anything about Rivens is the near future...

Yeah, DE definitely isn't going to remove tradeable Rivens anytime soon. All of the whales buying and selling thousands of plat worth of shiny purple rectangles has seen to that. I'd love to see a "what if" simulation of the trading community if DE just hit the big red button on Rivens, would probably be hilarious.

At this point, any major change in Rivens could probably also be subjected to the argument of "why did you wait this long?". The problematic system has existed for years now. The only semi-realistic thing I want out of them is a special Trading chat specifically for Rivens, so that the normal Trading chat could have anything other than copy-pasted lists of overpriced Rivens. Or they could just make the filtering useful.

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26 minutes ago, (XB1)KILLA BIG MAC said:

De dug themselves a hole adding in rivens to the the game. there were no rivens back during void towers..... and we still managed to go for several hours in a survival and defence. just a new plat sink since they destroyed the prime market.

Just leave

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14 hours ago, kazenioware said:

i rolled a Riven 100 x to get nothing really useful, that would justify the amount of effort you have to put into. Not even close.

Is it worth it? If you maxed everything out you are 99,9% of the time OP as f*.

Who knows you're stupid as *, OP

You decided to waste time in a completely optional RNG-heavy system, you got yourself to blame

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1 hour ago, YUNoJump said:

At this point, any major change in Rivens could probably also be subjected to the argument of "why did you wait this long?". The problematic system has existed for years now. The only semi-realistic thing I want out of them is a special Trading chat specifically for Rivens, so that the normal Trading chat could have anything other than copy-pasted lists of overpriced Rivens. Or they could just make the filtering useful.

Or build a proper auction house to make trading easier and safer for all players.  It would allow easier and cleaner filters to search through the plethora of tradeable items, and stop from making your eyes bleed reading through endless text scrolling.

And for those people who counterargue to add filters to my trade chat to filter out Rivens, I already have 2 dozen "Remove" filters that apply to the most common riven prefixes.  However, the downside to that is that a large part of trade spam also includes other WTB/WTS items that I will never see, due to having included rivens they want to buy/sell.

Trade chat is from a bygone era of Everquest, whereby even that old dinosaur of a game finally introduced a decent auction house system and it flourished trading by leaps and bounds.

But I digress and went on a tangent there.

@OP, I'm sorry mate you did not get a god roll on whatever riven you were working on, but the real fact remains you don't need one.  You can easily manage with just about any weapon with good enough riven rolls.  I'm sorry to say this, but what you're doing, farming kuva to roll something 100 times and getting nothing out of it is a form of gambling addiction, mixed in with insanity (the meaning of which is to do something over and over ad nauseum expecting a different outcome).  You're going to burn yourself out, and worse, you're going to just make yourself angry over a stupid and broken system that means utterly nothing in life, mate.

Take a deep breath (or 3), and let it go.

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2 hours ago, YUNoJump said:

The thing is, the only way that players can spend Plat on the RNG aspect of Rivens is to buy boosters, which are pretty cheap and last a while. The big bucks come from people buying Plat to trade with, and that's not gambling, it's just normal trading.

Though it is reasonable to say a booster is required, right? Even if a player wanted to take on the Slot machine of probability.

2 hours ago, YUNoJump said:

Path of Exile is WAY more complicated and deep than Warframe, as well as much more difficult in endgame. Veterans can stick around forever in PoE trying one of a hundred builds (just looking at that massive perk tree gives me nightmares), but Warframe has mandatory mods for every single build, and the best builds in the game are about 3 times as good as they need to be unless you're planning on living in Mot for a week. PoE's devs know exactly what they're doing with balance and adding new content that avoids power creep.

It's gotten that way over time. Perhaps too much for it's own good at times but they also allow players to select their own difficulty through map choices and modifiers along with the uber encounters. You can very much play the game casually but you also get rewarded for going more hardcore. PoE is more grindy on the surface but it doesn't feel like a chore as Warframe does. They've given players numerous ways to influence their drops and their item rolls to help with the RNG nature of the game. Delve is esp useful for this where you can increase certain item types and completely remove other types from the drop table.

You will spend more time playing PoE. No doubt. But it feels like a game. Not a list of chores. Oh and it's more expensive. One thing I can never fault Warframe for is their F2P model. As shark-like as Rivens are Warframe is pretty cheap otherwise. PoE will get about $40 from you eventually for Stash tabs no matter how hard you resist.

2 hours ago, YUNoJump said:

Yeah, DE definitely isn't going to remove tradeable Rivens anytime soon. All of the whales buying and selling thousands of plat worth of shiny purple rectangles has seen to that. I'd love to see a "what if" simulation of the trading community if DE just hit the big red button on Rivens, would probably be hilarious.

At this point, any major change in Rivens could probably also be subjected to the argument of "why did you wait this long?".

I think they will eventually change Rivens. It's part of a system. Catch the whales then catch the fish.

It's similar to how MMOs go buy with sub, then F2P. You get the biggest fans to jump in and then you go for a broader audience.

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4 hours ago, DatDarkOne said:

I will admit that I do like doing the challenges to unlock them.

I think they used up all the good Challenges on Riven unlocks and that's why we got these do X with Nightwave.

The Riven unlock challenges are much better. At least they attempt to be by adding a twist to something normal.

I generally only keep Rivens for off-brand weapons that players don't realize can be monsters like my Synapse, Torrid, Quanta V,  Twin Rogga, ect. I still can't believe I bought a near perfect Synapse Riven for 75p.... Then players complain about Armor scaling. hehehe. I hope Staticor goes back up. One day... The Daiyku Prime will come.

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Le 21/08/2019 à 01:59, GinKenshin a dit :

or wait since it'll be back in rotation? 

Saryn prime is still selling even if she's gonna be unvaulted soon. As dumb as it may sound, many people don't care about how, but more about when. 😉 

2019 isn't much about patience i guess.

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16 hours ago, YUNoJump said:

They were released without Disposition, but IIRC they still had a higher chance to unveil as lower-tier weapons. Disposition was more of a QoL feature that was added to give players a visible example of how Riven-viable their weapon is.

I honestly forgott it launched with different drop rates. However, it supports more the "rare & valuable" approach than "help lesser weapons". Disposition is/was a quick band-aid to maintain the illusion.

16 hours ago, YUNoJump said:

There are naturally weapons that are so trash that even Rivens can't save them, but the vast majority of weapons in the game can be made viable.

20 hours ago, ShortCat said:

Rivens failed at this intended goal, because  weapon balance pass early 2018 did truly help to expand our Arsenal. At this point, Rivens existed for over a year and accomplished nothing in this regard.

 

16 hours ago, YUNoJump said:

It's the same for normal weapon balancing, every year or two DE suddenly goes on a balancing spree then gives up for the rest of the year.
Primes and such are certainly one avenue of looking at buffed low-tier weapons, but it's really not a deep enough system to count. The vast majority of weapons don't have upgraded versions, and even several of those upgrades don't make the gun that much more viable.

My point was, that DE already has the right tools to fix the balance issue. Instead, they "were looking for a new approach". How often they do a balance pass or release new weapon variants does not diminish the fact, that Rivens were unnecessary. If nothing else, update/release frequency indicates how much they care.
Also, variants offer way more customization options and variety in their execution. If we look at some recent upgrades like Glaxion V, Opticor V or Zhuge P we will see that not only do they come with new features, which are unobtainable with Rivens, they also offer entirely new stat compositions, also unobtainable with Rivns. Calling this much creative freedom "not deep enough" is incomprehensible for me.

16 hours ago, YUNoJump said:

That's also not considering the fact that many of these weapons Rivens are practically unobtainable at the moment, unless you want to dish out hundreds of Plat in trading.

FTFY.

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Am 21.8.2019 um 01:27 schrieb kazenioware:

We are getting more Statues than Rivens.

Most of the times its for useless weapons anyway.

Obtaining Kuva is ridiculous hardcore grinding.  For a Siphon mission you can not roll a Riven with zero (0) rolls even once...Even Floods  with booster is a pain in the.

Rolling itself: just out of curiousity i rolled a Riven 100 x to get nothing really useful, that would justify the amount of effort you have to put into. Not even close.

How long does it last before it will be nerfed? Who knows.

Is it worth it? If you maxed everything out you are 99,9% of the time OP as f*.

i never understand why someone would NEED a riven to kill enemies.. 

if you don't like riven, don't use it..

problem solved..

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On 2019-08-22 at 2:59 AM, Xzorn said:

Though it is reasonable to say a booster is required, right? Even if a player wanted to take on the Slot machine of probability.

It's definitely a very lucrative deal (literally cut the time you need to spend on farming in half), but if you aren't going for minmaxing then it can still be very optional. Additionally, you can get boosters for free from Logins so instead of feeling forced to buy Boosters, you can just wait until you get a free booster and go Kuva-crazy then. It really comes down to how much you care about the system I guess.

17 hours ago, ShortCat said:

Rivens failed at this intended goal, because  weapon balance pass early 2018 did truly help to expand our Arsenal. At this point, Rivens existed for over a year and accomplished nothing in this regard.

Many of those balances were just designed to change weapons so that they were more in-line with other weapons of similar MR requirement. The issue there is that just balancing every weapon up to endgame viability ruins what semblance of weapon progression currently exists. Some weapons are supposed to be bad at endgame, because that means they're balanced for early game and it gives newbies something to level before they get given a weapon that wipes the entire Starchart. You still need Rivens to make those guns work at every level of gameplay, although currently a maxed set of Mods is enough to take almost any weapon up to level 40-50 Grineer at least.

The obvious issue is also that you can get to endgame by only levelling a tiny fraction of rank-appropriate weapons, and then you're stuck in endgame levelling trash gear, but that's a whole other conversation.

17 hours ago, ShortCat said:

My point was, that DE already has the right tools to fix the balance issue. Instead, they "were looking for a new approach". How often they do a balance pass or release new weapon variants does not diminish the fact, that Rivens were unnecessary. If nothing else, update/release frequency indicates how much they care.
Also, variants offer way more customization options and variety in their execution. If we look at some recent upgrades like Glaxion V, Opticor V or Zhuge P we will see that not only do they come with new features, which are unobtainable with Rivens, they also offer entirely new stat compositions, also unobtainable with Rivns. Calling this much creative freedom "not deep enough" is incomprehensible for me.

Rivens could be called unnecessary in that regard, but I don't think its feasible for DE to crank out so many alternate weapon upgrades that they actually rival the amount of viability that Rivens create. Rivens apply to every weapon in the game by default, but Wraith/Vandal/Prime weapons have to be manually created (especially in the case of sidegrades/alternate features such as the Opticor V or Pyrana Prime). For upgrades to be viable as an alternative to Rivens (in the case of making most weapons in the game viable in endgame), then DE would have to start really cranking them out, faster than they release normal weapons in fact.

There's also the fact that creating that sort of atmosphere, where you can expect a weapon upgrade to come out for most weapons, isn't really healthy for the game. If DE released a new weapon, players could expect that a better upgrade would be released in the future, and that new upgrade wouldn't count any time or effort spent on the original. Why should I care about Formaing the new Corpus Money-Gun when I know that DE will probably release a Money-Gun Vandal in the future? Why should I focus on obtaining it (or buying it with Plat, big issue there) when a Vandal will appear as a totally free Event reward later? It'll even come with a Catalyst and a Slot if the current system is followed.

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On regards to rivens and any other mod for that matter, none of them are worth more than the corresponding weapon or frame is plat cost of buying that weapon/frame directly from the market.  

So since there is no weapon or frame in the market that costs more than about 300-350 plat, that's as high as I'll ever pay for ANY mod.  I don't care how rare it is or how much time you wasted on trying to get the "perfect" roll. 😛 

edit: Why would you pay more for the tires than the cost of the car?  Something to think about.  😀 

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6 hours ago, YUNoJump said:

The issue there is that just balancing every weapon up to endgame viability ruins what semblance of weapon progression currently exists. Some weapons are supposed to be bad at endgame, because that means they're balanced for early game and it gives newbies something to level before they get given a weapon that wipes the entire Starchart.

Makes perfects sense, that weapons are not created equal. Then, what purpose is behind this...

6 hours ago, YUNoJump said:

You still need Rivens to make those guns work at every level of gameplay,

On 2019-08-21 at 2:21 AM, YUNoJump said:

Rivens are designed specifically to boost lower-tier guns up to high-tier missions.


My point was "If a weapons is bad, not even a Riven can salvage it". The above mentioned balance pass aimed at that core problem, because that's why balance exists in the first place, as you rightfully mentioned here:

7 hours ago, YUNoJump said:

Many of those balances were just designed to change weapons so that they were more in-line with other weapons of similar MR requirement.

If balance pass can bring weapons in line with their close competitors, what is the purpose of Rivens?

 

7 hours ago, YUNoJump said:

I don't think its feasible for DE to crank out so many alternate weapon upgrades that they actually rival the amount of viability that Rivens create.

First of all, you imply Rivens actually succeed and make weapons competitive; examples from the most recent time like Glaxion, Akjagara, Grinlock as well as other stuff people listed here show a different picture. Furthermore, there is no need to create upgrades for every weapon that does not have one, only for lower end would be enough or necessary. Then, newly added weapons are not created to scrap at the bottom. Fulmin, Komorex, Cyanex as well as Quatz perform well.

7 hours ago, YUNoJump said:

DE would have to start really cranking them out, faster than they release normal weapons in fact.

That's actually happening. New weapon releases became rare. This year so far we got only 6 new additions: 4 above mentioned + Korrudo and Wolf Hammer. On the other side we have 2 Prime releases with 4 weapons + 3 Vandals + 1 Prisma. Furthermore, as I already mentioned, not every weapons needs an upgrade.

8 hours ago, YUNoJump said:

There's also the fact that creating that sort of atmosphere, where you can expect a weapon upgrade to come out for most weapons, isn't really healthy for the game. If DE released a new weapon, players could expect that a better upgrade would be released in the future, and that new upgrade wouldn't count any time or effort spent on the original. Why should I care about Formaing the new Corpus Money-Gun when I know that DE will probably release a Money-Gun Vandal in the future? Why should I focus on obtaining it (or buying it with Plat, big issue there) when a Vandal will appear as a totally free Event reward later? It'll even come with a Catalyst and a Slot if the current system is followed.

Hypothetical and hyperbolic fearmongering. Not happening.

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