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Is multishot and punch through really needed?

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I always go with maximum multishot (split chamber + vigilante armaments) and some punch through to damage/kill enemies lined up, and end up with limited slots for crit and elemental damage so I want to ask if both are really needed? I feel that the multishot is really necessary (technically double/triple damage with the cost of one bullet) while punch through is good for fights on distance where enemies are lined up.

What do you guys think about them?

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For the base star chart, for which most of it will never go past level 50 enemies. 

No. You won't need multishot and punchthrough. Basic mods will suffice

Going past the standard starchart? ie. long duration runs of endless stuff.

Yes. Once you go past that level 50 cap you'll find yourself falling off in damage pretty rapidly and you'll be needing at least the bonus multishot mods. Most guns can get away without needing punchthrough but stuff like shotguns really benefit from it.

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There's really no weapons that leaving out multishot is a good idea.  Not only does it increase your DPS after all other mods, but it also increases your status proc amount by the same amount.  It's non-subjectively better on 99.99% of content.

Punch through is more subjective though.  It's great for cleaving enemies, and piling up bodies, but at the cost of single-target damage: sometimes as much as 40~60% damage.  It's more of a quality of life thing, and if you feel something else is better than use it instead.

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PT is nice to Kill that room full of Enemies faster with massively less time needed to Damage all of them.
or to take advantage of terrain opportunities given to you.
i certainly enjoy a few of my favorite Weapons that if an Enemy is Waypointed, i can pretty much just point my Camera at the Waypoint and shoot and i've hit it, irregardless of what is between me and that Enemy.

some Multi-Shot is important, yes. stacking as much Multi-Shot as possible, however? no, and it's actually not always the highest average Damage anyways. remember that 3 projectiles over 2 is a 50% increase to overall Damage, not 100%. so the more Multi-Shot Mods you're adding, the less effective they become relative to other Mod choices.
i.e. Vigilante Armaments is situational, not a given. sometimes it's worth it, sometimes not. Vigilante Armaments on top of Split Chamber is actually only a ~32% increase to average Damage. chances are actually, that there are Elemental Mods or Crit Mods or Et Cetera that can offer more Damage than that. but extra Projectiles helps smooth out Crits too, and allows applying Status Effects more quickly. though, depending on the type of Status Effects, like Damage based ones, applying it a bit more often is not necessarily better than increasing your Damage another way to make the Damage that Status Effects deals greater.

so it's always just complicated and there are never any global rules you can apply to all Weapons (other than that some Multi-Shot, some Base Damage Bonus, some Elemental Damage is good on everything).

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There is a very good reason why the "core" mods of any gun are "damage, appropriate elemental combo, multishot," and it's that this core is the most efficient means of stacking consistent damage while still leaving room for other mods that a given weapon might also make good use of, such as crit mods, ammo mutation mods, etc.

Multishot boosts overall damage, # of status procs per ammo consumed, and # of crits per ammo consumed. As such, it can milk a lot out of supplementary stats like crit chance/damage and status chance provided you can boost it to the point of reliably adding another shot. This is incidentally why +110% multishot Rifle Rivens and +80% multishot Shotgun Rivens are awesome, whereas for Pistol Rivens multishot is a lot less important outside of particularly tight builds due to Lethal Torrent's existence.

That being said, the more you invest in any given stat over others, the less value you'll get out of further investment, so you generally shouldn't have more than two mods of any same type on a single gun unless you're doing something specific like using one-and-a-half elemental combos to hit multiple enemy weaknesses.

 

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In my totally not humble but honest and often unpopular opinion, the effect of fire rate mods need to be approximately doubled (and 2x to all charged weapons not just bows) which would effectively give multi shot competition. For example 120% fire rate means you will definitely fire double the projectile, more than that even,  but this also means burning your mag a lot faster. This would not be optimal on all weapons, and there would definitely be times that multi is better. That said if you mod for both you're going to start to effect the ability for the weapon to be viable outside of its standard mechanics. You'd have to forfeit element mods or crit mods so you'd be losing damage, crit and status to create a bullet hose. And again it might be worth while on charge weapons like bows or opticor, Lanka, depending on how you use it, being that multi shot means pulling ammo out of your ass where as fire rate might fire more bullets per minute optimally, but won't if the mag is small...

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Multishot will produce more bullets/pellets that can crit and/or proc status, and more bullets/pellets also means more damage! So you definitely want multishot!

Punch through will let you apply more crits and status procs on more targets that would otherwise not be hit... While this is probably really bad in open worlds/areas, it's better for numerous enemies running through a hallway or coming out of a narrow doorway (basically most missions). Punch through can also help with ammo economy (because you get more hits out of one round)!

I would prioritize multishot over punch through though!

 

 

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Punch Through is good for low slash based weapons that are both slow af and have no based punch through. For example: Nagantaka, Latron Prime, Zhuge,...

Multishot is always needed, especially those Rifle-types using Split Chamber. Even with only 150% ms from Vigilante Armament + Split Chamber, this is still Multiplicative source of DPS to base dmg, element and crit dmg.

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2 hours ago, Nurmetya said:

For the base star chart, for which most of it will never go past level 50 enemies. 

No. You won't need multishot and punchthrough. Basic mods will suffice

I'd argue that the star chart is the very place where you do want punch-through.

You don't need a gun dealing a billion damage to low level enemies that will be one shot by half that amount anyway, dealing a million damage to multiple enemies per shot is far more effective.

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Multishot is a necessity for me on almost everything, but I often skip punch-through in favor of elemental/status/crit mods. There are some weapons where punch-through totally messes with the projectile, causing things to get lodged behind the thing you're trying to shoot, explode in the wrong place, etc. so use judiciously if it's some sort of explosive, retrievable throwable, bow, and so on. You might not actually want punch-through for certain things.

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Depends on the gun and the existing build.

Too much of anything will have diminishing returns the more you add that attribute and ignore others. 

It works best on the extremities. 

A high damage but lower fire rate weapon like a shotgun will have a lot more effect with punch through as it affects an area and can damage multiple enemies with fewer shots. 

A high fire rate weapon with slightly low per shot damage will benefit more for multishot as you can kill individual enemies faster with fewer shots. 

If course I assume you mean this after you already have the core mods added. 

I will never remove the split chamber /barrel diffusion / hells chamber on my builds, 

But vigilante armaments or offense may be replaced with either depending on the weapon (and the frame at times) 

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Question: does punch-through ignore Nox helmets, allowing instant headshots?

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11 minutes ago, evilChair said:

Question: does punch-through ignore Nox helmets, allowing instant headshots?

Yesn't

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11 hours ago, taiiat said:

PT is nice to Kill that room full of Enemies faster with massively less time needed to Damage all of them.
or to take advantage of terrain opportunities given to you.
i certainly enjoy a few of my favorite Weapons that if an Enemy is Waypointed, i can pretty much just point my Camera at the Waypoint and shoot and i've hit it, irregardless of what is between me and that Enemy.

This is EXACTLY how I use my bows when in solo and group missions.  😀

As for having both Vigilante nd Split Chamber on the same weapon, there is only one weapon I use both of them on and that's Artemis Bow.  That is specifically so I can have that very nice 19-21 arrow spread.  😎 

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Short answer is: yes.

Of course, there are exceptions, but in general you want both and a great deal of both. 

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VA is one of those optional mods that you can fit into your build if you have space. Fire rate, punch through, elemental damage, etc. tend to be better since they benefit every shot. VA only helps you some of the time (except on shotguns or pellet weapons.) 

Worth noting, one reason lethal torrent is so good is that it brings your multishot total to 180% as opposed to VA’s 150% AND you get a fire rate increase. Though, there are sometimes better options on weapons that cannot take advantage of the fire rate (high fire rate semi auto ones for example).

I’d say shred, heavy caliber, Argon scope, Vile acceleration, hunter munitions, or 90%elementals can serve you better most of the time depending on the weapon. Even using reload speed might be better on some weapons (yes really). Just pick your preference.

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Yes, both. However I tend to cut back on vigilant armaments and just slot shred or now primed shred as my PT mod where possible. The fire rate on shred makes up for most of the lost MS from armaments while the mod also provides enough PT for pretty much anything. On beam weapons it is even more of an obvious choice to skip VA because MS cant proc status effects on those weapons, so it is better to shoot faster since every single non-MS tick can proc a status.

Just make sure to not slot PT mods on certain weapons like Astilla or Zarr, because it turns them into wet noodles due to how their mechanics work.

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12 hours ago, Zekkii said:

There's really no weapons that leaving out multishot is a good idea.

There's the stealth edge case, where a multishot kill won't result in a stealth kill.  There's also a few weapons like Panthera where adding  projectiles makes it a little harder to be accurate  at long ranges--but I haven't found this to be any kind of factor in my modding decisions, so I'm not sure I'd call that even in an "edge case."

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