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Frompa

Allow augment mods in exillus slot

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34 minutes ago, ShortCat said:

That reply implies, Warframe crossed the line and there is no salvation. That's simply not the case. Yet.
Rash and unnecessary demands like in this thread make any changes afterwards even more difficult.

It's not like DE is assembled in their villain pub every Friday and discuss how they can flush the game with power creep. One bright-head from the community suggests something and other like-minded geniusses jump on the bandwagon. You do not have to be smart, just loud.

 

It is the case... that's the simple truth... there is no salvation...Even if DE tries to fix it with a total wipe and restart...This community aggressively and passively will make sure their efforts are destroyed in under a year of said hard reset...and six years ago I played it with the stamina bar and all the brakes applied and this community was just as adamant about pulling off said brakes back then in the so called golden age you tubers lament over... as they are now about never having it return...

A leopard doesn't change its spots...

Having an extra slot meant only for one syndicate mod isn't going to kill the game any faster with how the re-work and hamster wheel have fused into one that we've been on since...This ship has sailed...as they say...

 

This is just moot anyways..DE will either do it or not...so far not..so this part of the dam remains dry...Now excuse me I have to get on my boat and row my way over to arbitrations and save some downed players because they demanded they be able to be saved and after that I get to use 3 players using Saryn and Volt to kill nine levels of Elite Onslaught so I can level a gun while I catchup on MindHunter seasons 2 on Netflix...

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47 minutes ago, (PS4)FriendSharkey said:

This community aggressively and passively will make sure their efforts are destroyed in under a year of said hard reset...

Don't worry, you are on the winning team now.

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6 minutes ago, ZeroMR said:

Don't worry, you are on the winning team now.

We're seven years in...I don't see the point to brakes anymore like this argument against an extra mod slot or removing self damage...It's just remnants of by-gone era that's meaningless now beyond the last of the forum hills some want to die on at all costs...

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vor 12 Stunden schrieb (PS4)Double991:

Most augments can't even beat the drift mods so I'd be all for more choice.

Exactly!

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I agree with OP. It should be done already. There's too much confusion about exlilus/not exilus augments. I can't find no relief.

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I can't believe we get something as ridiculous as Umbral forma for any frame/weapon our heart desires yet Augment mod comparability in the Exilus slot is dreadfully unthinkable.

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1 hour ago, Keybones said:

I can't believe we get something as ridiculous as Umbral forma for any frame/weapon our heart desires...

First of all, there was a lot of begging and whining for an Umbra Froma from the community's side after release of Umbra mods, which creates pressure on the developer's side. Whether Umbra mods should exist in the first place is another discussion. However, community again was whining and begging for more Primed mods, which Umbra mods kinda are.
I already covered this ignorant behavior here

16 hours ago, ShortCat said:

It's not like DE is assembled in their villain pub every Friday and discuss how they can flush the game with power creep. One bright-head from the community suggests something and other like-minded geniusses jump on the bandwagon. You do not have to be smart, just loud.

and here

On 2019-08-22 at 10:26 AM, ShortCat said:

Power creep happens not over night. It is a slow gradual process. Greenlighting small, seemingly insignificant power-ups led to current situation. What does one more small push. Right?

 

1 hour ago, Keybones said:

...yet Augment mod comparability in the Exilus slot is dreadfully unthinkable.

Yes, because for every Augments like Ore Gaze, there is one Chromatic Blade or Venome Dose, which can efforlessly grant 200% more Corrosive damage to all weapons for the whole team. At this point you can also allow Blind Rage or Streamline into Exilus. Or just make it a 9th slot.

At least @(PS4)FriendSharkey has given up and is delliberately dismantling the sailing ship, you on the other hand is one of the bright heads.

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@ShortCat calling out another player isn't helping your argument either. Honestly seems like you want to derail this topic because you don't agree. You're allowed to not agree, but don't try picking fights with others.

In topic, yes, exilus mods have arbitrary rules. We have things like power drift in there, but natural talent is a no go. If augments are made compatible with the exilus slot, you're still making a sacrifice. Even if some augments are scewed in the power section, it only means that the augments need to be further looked at, not ignored as a whole because of powercreep, and the idea of having them in exilus shouldn't be dismissed as it is a possible route to not only open up some builds but to also get a better look as well. 

It honestly seems like the players that are against this idea are not looking at the bigger picture. They're picking one argument and trying to shut it down. Powercreep is only going to get worse, the recent set mods, amalgam mods and potentially new umbral mods (which are just primed set mods) shows that. Powercreep won't be fixed until a lot of core systems, like the modding system, is reworked. But the salt will flow if that is even mentioned in passing by the devs. Making 1 mod type locked behind a grind compatible with a slot that can only be opened with a resource that is a grind to build is not going to suddenly skyrocket powercreep into unfathomable levels. There's a heavy initial cost to it.

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Some of Augments CAN be used in EXILUS slot...Like Mesa's Waltz, and I think one of Volt's Augments

Why not others too?

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37 minutes ago, Sajochi said:

@ShortCat calling out another player isn't helping your argument either.

If attacking a dumb position is the same as attacking the person, then we reached new hights of the offend culture.

39 minutes ago, Sajochi said:

Honestly seems like you want to derail this topic because you don't agree. You're allowed to not agree, but don't try picking fights with others.

Derail what exactly? So far this thread is a polonaise of "yes man" without much substance. And presenting actual argumetns, which you deliberately ignored, is picking fights. I just try to adapt to the avarage.

 

46 minutes ago, Sajochi said:

In topic, yes, exilus mods have arbitrary rules. We have things like power drift in there, but natural talent is a no go.[...] and the idea of having them in exilus shouldn't be dismissed as it is a possible route to not only open up some builds but to also get a better look as well. 

Openning with a strawman does not help you. It is not about whether some Augments can be allowed in Exilus, which is the case already and is fine; it is about whether all Augments should be allowed. So, nobody is dismissing the idea of Augments in Exilus. Moving on.

55 minutes ago, Sajochi said:

If augments are made compatible with the exilus slot, you're still making a sacrifice.

What sacrifice? Show me one build that gets worse with an Augment in Exilus instead of a regular slot. Or you are talking about "sacrifice a regular mod slot"? In which case I already said:

1 hour ago, ShortCat said:

there is one Chromatic Blade or Venome Dose, which can efforlessly grant 200% more Corrosive damage to all weapons for the whole team. At this point you can also allow Blind Rage or Streamline into Exilus. Or just make it a 9th slot.

Are you honestly trying to argue those Augments are not worth the slot?

1 hour ago, Sajochi said:

Even if some augments are scewed in the power section, it only means that the augments need to be further looked at, not ignored as a whole because of powercreep

As an extention of the previous line, there are 3 ways I understand your words:

  1. Augments require further improvemnts, so that they are woth the slot. Something everbody should agree with. Including me.
  2. You are talking about Augment's potential in Exilus, and in case it is too powerfull it should be tuned down to maintain compatibility with Exilus? Or we just stick with 1 and make all augments worth using.
  3. All Augments belong into Exilus to present new "options". This view clashes hard with the "sacrifice" theme, as you allow uber mods to have their own space and basically create a 9th slot. Or pure power creep.
1 hour ago, Sajochi said:

They're picking one argument and trying to shut it down. [...] Powercreep won't be fixed until a lot of core systems, like the modding system, is reworked.

What argument? Power creep? So you suggest to fully embrace it, because later all existing problems could be fixed? Problems, which you create with your current course of actions in the first place. Flawless logic.

1 hour ago, Sajochi said:

Powercreep is only going to get worse, the recent set mods, amalgam mods and potentially new umbral mods (which are just primed set mods) shows that.

My answer, glad you paid attention.

2 hours ago, ShortCat said:

First of all, there was a lot of begging and whining for an Umbra Froma from the community's side after release of Umbra mods, which creates pressure on the developer's side. Whether Umbra mods should exist in the first place is another discussion. However, community again was whining and begging for more Primed mods, which Umbra mods kinda are.

It's not like DE is assembled in their villain pub every Friday and discuss how they can flush the game with power creep. One bright-head from the community suggests something and other like-minded geniusses jump on the bandwagon. You do not have to be smart, just loud.

Power creep happens not over night. It is a slow gradual process. Greenlighting small, seemingly insignificant power-ups led to current situation. What does one more small push. Right?

I was arguing against community during Exilus' implementation back in 2015. I was arguing against Umbra mods and its polarity after Sacrifice Update. And now you dare to say in my face that power creep is inevitable? To make it clear offending: you are part of the problem and have no rights to complain about power creep.

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@ShortCat I see there is no point to continue a discussion with you. Calling something dumb because you don't like it just means you cannot be talked to. Sure, there are plenty of others here who agree with the OP, but we're not going to get anywhere with feedback by shutting something down immediately. And yes, you are attacking, you're not discussing.

I'm still for augments in exilus, and I would like to talk about the costs vs benefits and figure out what to do to balance that out.

 

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1 minute ago, Sajochi said:

Calling something dumb

Where?

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20 minutes ago, ShortCat said:

If attacking a dumb position is the same as attacking the person, then we reached new hights of the offend culture.

 

6 minutes ago, ShortCat said:

Where?

You say it's a dumb position, implying the idea is dumb. Don't try to play coy. I'm done with you.

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2 hours ago, Sajochi said:

You say it's a dumb position, implying the idea is dumb. Don't try to play coy. I'm done with you.

Glad you quoted the whole sentance :) Sad you did not understand it :(

We are indeed done, you had nothing to say anyway.

 

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On 2019-08-21 at 8:24 PM, Frompa said:

title...

 

wouldn't mind seeing an additional mod slot for augments but the exilus slot would help.

 

EDIT:  I don't care about how the exillus slot is currently used or what those mods are currently used for.  I'm just stating what I would like to see, and I'm sure I'm not alone.  I don't care about being overpowered or changing what anyone is used to.  

Yea cant wait to put venom dose on saryn in a "9th" slot, because that wouldnt be too much would it.

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Why does "power creep" bother people?  When changes are made to increase power or play style in anyway it should be a good thing.  No one is forced become more powerful.  You always have the option to limit yourself and stay where you are.  Giving options to those who want more just allows more people to play the way they want to play.  If you like playing at a certain level, do so, find like minded people to group up with or play solo, it's your option.  Nothing is forced.  

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On 2019-08-23 at 5:43 AM, ShortCat said:

First of all, there was a lot of begging and whining for an Umbra Froma from the community's side after release of Umbra mods, which creates pressure on the developer's side.

Can you explain why you believe this idea is relevant to the topic?

On 2019-08-23 at 5:43 AM, ShortCat said:

 for every Augments like Ore Gaze, there is one Chromatic Blade or Venome Dose, which can efforlessly grant 200% more Corrosive damage to all weapons for the whole team.

Then that power disparity between Augments might need to be addressed as its own thing, much like the disparity between different Warframes. And because these values can be tweaked at any time, this is not a good argument against allowing Augment mods into the Exilus slot/adding a dedicated Augment slot.

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1 hour ago, Keybones said:

Then that power disparity between Augments might need to be addressed as its own thing, much like the disparity between different Warframes. And because these values can be tweaked at any time, this is not a good argument against allowing Augment mods into the Exilus slot/adding a dedicated Augment slot.

Personally, I'd say it's a terrific argument for a massive augment overhaul -before- changing how slots work.

 

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12 hours ago, Keybones said:

Can you explain why you believe this idea is relevant to the topic?

It was a response to the "inevitable power creep" argument. Was all in the post you quoted that part from.

12 hours ago, Keybones said:

Then that power disparity between Augments might need to be addressed as its own thing, much like the disparity between different Warframes.

On 2019-08-23 at 2:38 PM, ShortCat said:
  • Augments require further improvemnts, so that they are woth the slot. Something everbody should agree with. Including me.
  • You are talking about Augment's potential in Exilus, and in case it is too powerfull it should be tuned down to maintain compatibility with Exilus? Or we just stick with 1 and make all augments worth using.
  • All Augments belong into Exilus to present new "options". This view clashes hard with the "sacrifice" theme, as you allow uber mods to have their own space and basically create a 9th slot. Or pure power creep.

One more: atm Augments are already stronger in most cases. Furthermore, the more popular Exilus mods are Drift mods, which grant slight stat improvements. In case you decide to use an Augment in Exilus you also free a slot, that is not confined with Exilus limitations anymore, and as nobody is using Power Drift for its knockdown resist or Cunning Drift for extra slide, there is no reason to consider it over all the other power mods. Coaction Drift would be an exception with its Aura boost, but for everything else there is a better alternative. Exilus mods will die the moment you allow all Augments into Exilus slot.

12 hours ago, Keybones said:

this is not a good argument against allowing Augment mods into the Exilus slot/adding a dedicated Augment slot.

Why? How about you present reasonable arguments for your ideas?

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On 2019-08-21 at 2:46 PM, (PS4)Stealth_Cobra said:

Been suggested multiple times, but I agree. The fact some augments work in the exilus slot makes it even more confusing as it it, plus there's so many augments that are band aid mods for flawed or lackluster abilities that it sucks we have to waste one or more main slots for these augments. Making all augments compatible would bring consistency and free one more modding slot for more important stuff like survivability mods or energy mods.

Take Ash for example. I pretty much have to use seeking Shuriken because the base ability kinda sucks and is rather useless without armor stripping. I also have to use fatal teleport because the teleport kill is unreliable without it (when I teleport close to a LVL 150 plus bombard, I want it 💯 percent dead). Likewise, Smoke Shadow is a cool gimmick, but am I going to waste a mod slot on something that could be part of ability by default. Being able to offload one to exilus (or better, a dedicated augment slot) would be sweet.

 

Agreed, and applies to so many frames. I think most of this could be resolved just by adding the function to ________ ability and killing the augment in general.

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Honestly augents feel more like something that you should work for to obtain and than make permanently part of a frame... with prime frames coming with some preinstalled.

Why? because most augments are more or less worthless and the majority of the remaining ones are bandaids to big faults in the powers they modify.

True, there are outliers that feel very powercreepy, but those are the absolute minority and simpthom of other issues.

Dedicated unlockable slots for augments would make sense, as paying for their "mod power" in "mastery ranks". Heck even treating augments like arcanes would make sense and keep syndacates relevant for longer!

 

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Same old tried and true arguments about power creep power creep power creep. 

Power crunch is also a thing. 

Way too many mods in this game are trash. Why? "Because of power creep!" no. Because DE won't periodically balance their modding system. And like it or not, buffs are usually more effective at solving the problem than nerfs. "Well this mod has become literally required on most builds, so we're going to nerf it so that people will try to use other things and.... wait why can't anyone complete this event, this event, this event, or this event anymore?" Game companies assign metas, because by specifically designing an event around certain weapons, certain classes, etc, to be used on that activity, it allows them a central structure to build around. Which is why Saryn is perfect for ESO, and why Trinity was nerfed. Because they wanted people using saryn, volt, etc, they didn't consider that it would be easier to nuke things with trampoline trinity. It screwed up their meta. 

Problem is when you assign meta, after meta, eventually certain things you have left out of the meta for long enough become trash...and other things have to be trash to be part of the meta. For instance the masochism exploit for Chroma. Take your throwing stars, put on concealed explosives, throw them at your feet until you have max armor and damage, pull out lanka, say goodbye to eidolon. They built that encounter knowing people would do that, so as such concealed explosives can't be buffed because it would instantly kill Chroma and make Eidolon hunts far more S#&$ty of an experience.

They really need to, just every once and a while, look over all the mods, and buff where it needs to be, and nerf where it needs to be. Multishot being nerfed would result in massive outcry.................. significantly buffing fire rate mods to potentially do more damage in less time on certain weapons at the expense of burning your magazine faster, would probably be a counter for multishot. you use it at a price, more damage, faster ammo burn, vs multishot increasing damage less but doing so at far better ammo economy. And the multiplier for bows needs to be adjusted to work on all charged weapons. Right now there is never a viable excuse to not have multishot on your weapon build. That's not power creep. That's a result of bad balancing decisions.

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On 2019-08-21 at 2:24 PM, Frompa said:

EDIT:  I don't care about how the exillus slot is currently used or what those mods are currently used for.  I'm just stating what I would like to see, and I'm sure I'm not alone.  I don't care about being overpowered or changing what anyone is used to.  

☝️

That's a really, really, really bad reason for wanting something to change. 

 

Want it to change because it would fix something broken. 

Want it to change because it would be a clear improvement. 

Want something to change because it would provide an option. 

 

 

But ffs don't stand there stamping your little foot and insisting that it should change because you "just want it". 

 

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