Grendle Idea's

[WellIHopeThisOneWorks]

I know he's just been teased and things are up in the air at the moment, but I just came up with a few things on a separate 'General' thread (in a comment to someone complaining) And thought Id put them over here to see if anyone would think this would be cool. 

PERSONALLY! I feel in his current state Grenedle feels vary gimmicky and rushed, this might be do to it just being early in the process for him, but if that isn't the case, I figured Id post a few common points in that general thread here, for others to look at and discuss (in the proper place! I think...)

As stated, one and three I feel should be combined. Make it so a tap consumes a target your curser is over, a hold regurgitates whats in your belly at the cursor. If you want it one at a time, maybe make it like a slow rifle shot, that as its held down it consumes another charge to fire continuously tell you have no more 'food'. 

Two shouldn't instakill (if it does), but instead start casting something like a 'digusting' effect, where he sits there and consumes a bit of energy per second to 'digust' the targets he has, dealing a constant stream of damage and gaining bonus armor based on how long he is able to hold it down/how much damage he does/how much 'food' he finishes. Duration would likely be scaled off of energy drained, while armor buff would be scaled off of damage dealt. (would be nice to have some health regen too while hes stationary, like what Inaros does).

His four, I feel, is just...Its like 'the thing you use in an open world setting'. Which is, fine, It just, feels either incredibly useless or incredibly over powered in tile based combat. Like just rolling down a narrow corridor eating everything with nothing to stop you. That and the whole 'need one stack to activate' seems kind of arbitrary, and not synergistic. Like, why? I'm eating with the ability, why would I eat before I eat, more?

I feel his four should be changed to be more like Baruuks 'resistance' thing, where he needs to have people in his belly in order to use it, and it costs energy and 'digestion' in order to roll around for a while. It's damage is once again dealt based off the damage you are dealing to people in your belly, and if you roll to long after running out of people in your belly you get 'hunger pains' and get forced out of it, getting stunned for a time (like they have currently with the 'dizzy' mechanic).

Decent time to point out that the damage dealt to 'stomached' enemies would be based off of power strength, there by making the rest of this scale off of power strength. (was thinking of making it percentage based too, but that seems incredibly op...) 

As for a replacement for the three getting combined into the 1...Maybe a mixture of toxic lash and Titania's tribute in concept? you spend some time digesting for a bit before spitting up a fully disgusted enemy onto your weapons, gaining a self damage buff based on the enemy consumed. That could be interesting...

Well, this is likely to be placed in the TLDR existence of threads, but for those that get through all that, what do you think? 

[Xepthrichros]

Seems like just a straight up request for nerfs before the character is even released.

Your proposals are a mix of prolonging the time it takes to kill things, increasing energy costs, adding restrictions to using the 4th ability, worrying the 4th is OP while still acknowledging it might be hard to use in tight corridors - thus already making it inherently not OP since it may be difficult to use. Now if you make it overly difficult to use or restricted, I, and likely many others, when we are using Grendel will eventually just skip using the 4 and  give him a whip or zaw, and Maim Strike with it. 

So, how about no need for pointless restrictions and also wait until the frame is released before asking for things to be weakened? 

Edited August 22, 2019 by Xepthrichros

[WellIHopeThisOneWorks]

6 hours ago, Xepthrichros said:

Seems like just a straight up request for nerfs before the character is even released.

Your proposals are a mix of prolonging the time it takes to kill things, increasing energy costs, adding restrictions to using the 4th ability, worrying the 4th is OP while still acknowledging it might be hard to use in tight corridors - thus already making it inherently not OP since it may be difficult to use. Now if you make it overly difficult to use or restricted, I, and likely many others, when we are using Grendel will eventually just skip using the 4 and  give him a whip or zaw, and Maim Strike with it. 

So, how about no need for pointless restrictions and also wait until the frame is released before asking for things to be weakened? 

From what I understood they already required a 'stack' to activate the rolly polly ball, as well as it costing energy per second for you to keep enemies in your belly. And per your argument, whats to keep you from doing that anyway with its current iteration? It would be faster either way to just kill with helicopter build, and by that logic just don't use anything but Inaros anyway.

I just feel a way to instakill any enemy regardless of level or health value is a bit excessive, and suggested what I felt to be a solid, still powerful but more 'balanced' way to go about 'consuming' things. Make him a bit more interactive in the process to.
 

But ehh, I guess, I like mastery fodder just as much as the next guy...

(and besides his four change, which I personally consider a side grade sense you'd just kill the target instead of 'eating' them, hay could even make it based off his melee mods so you can have your cake and eat to! And the 2 not insta killing, which no frame is able to do from full no matter what, the rest I felt was pretty much just straight buffing his kit with more interesting effects...not really nerfing from my perspective. Though I guess making him more complicated could be seen as a nerf...I forget I live in the age of Saryn and Volt...*shrugs*)

Edited August 22, 2019 by WellIHopeThisOneWorks

[Xepthrichros]

20 hours ago, WellIHopeThisOneWorks said:

where he sits there and consumes a bit of energy per second to 'digust' the targets he has, dealing a constant stream of damage and gaining bonus armor based on how long he is able to hold it down/how much damage he does/how much 'food' he finishes. Duration would likely be scaled off of energy drained, while armor buff would be scaled off of damage dealt. (would be nice to have some health regen too while hes stationary, like what Inaros does).

How long you gonna sit there (sit stationary?) to digest and add "disgust" to the enemy? By the time you are done with this sitting still, your team has bullet jumped off and killed the Capture Target and is on their way out of the map.

 

20 hours ago, WellIHopeThisOneWorks said:

I feel his four should be changed to be more like Baruuks 'resistance' thing,

Baruuk is unpopular because of the farm needed to get him and after all that farm, his power is only accessible through prolonged build up in a battle. 

 Many consider him MR fodder.

Which, weirdly. 

1 hour ago, WellIHopeThisOneWorks said:

But ehh, I guess, I like mastery fodder just as much as the next guy...
 

 

So you want Grendel to be fodder?

20 hours ago, WellIHopeThisOneWorks said:

As for a replacement for the three getting combined into the 1...Maybe a mixture of toxic lash and Titania's tribute in concept? you spend some time digesting for a bit before spitting up a fully disgusted enemy onto your weapons, gaining a self damage buff based on the enemy consumed. That could be interesting...

This is so far the only "buff" I see you adding. Which I think is already going to be part of his kit when they showed him off. They said as he digests enemies, he will then provide some aura buff based on the enemy. 

 

20 hours ago, WellIHopeThisOneWorks said:

the whole 'need one stack to activate' seems kind of arbitrary, and not synergistic. Like, why? I'm eating with the ability, why would I eat before I eat, more?

I feel his four should be changed to be more like Baruuks 'resistance' thing, where he needs to have people in his belly in order to use it, and it costs energy and 'digestion' in order to roll around for a while. It's damage is once again dealt based off the damage you are dealing to people in your belly, and if you roll to long after running out of people in your belly you get 'hunger pains' and get forced out of it, getting stunned for a time (like they have currently with the 'dizzy' mechanic)

The paragraph after and the one before, contradict each other. One moment you are against the stack and wonder why it is there, "why would I eat before I eat"... then you proceed to recommend yourself that "needs people in his belly in order to use it" - THERE, you directly proposed what you said you are questioning. In order to have people in his belly, he has to eat, so now I ask you the same thing you asked: "why would I eat before I eat".   And in addition to this, you follow up by increasing the requirement on how much he has eaten to use his 4th skill (the whole resistance build up section and energy drain costs). Can you decide? To me it just seems you are putting more limits on his 4 than needed. Put enough limits and people will just use melee and maim strike - something you can do with EVERYONE and well sure, fashionframe endgame again. 

Edit: oh and the hunger pains too. you already acknowledge it may be tricky to use in small rooms and corridors and you still want to slap another penalty to using it.

Edited August 22, 2019 by Xepthrichros

[WellIHopeThisOneWorks]

I feel your mostly trolling but ill hummer you anyway, as it might at least clear things up for others.

39 minutes ago, Xepthrichros said:

How long you gonna sit there (sit stationary?) to digest and add "disgust" to the enemy? By the time you are done with this sitting still, your team has bullet jumped off and killed the Capture Target and is on their way out of the map.

Yes, but whats the issue with that? He doesn't need the extra armor in a capture mission, or if he does, the ones that rushed ahead might arguably have fallen over already. By this logic the mere act of standing still is a sin, which, this game does perpetuate that notion. But considering the fact hes still able to capture any level of target at a button press, I think having him have to sit there to rapidly kill it for a few seconds for a big buff is warranted. (as for how long, depends on the level of the target, can probably instantly chomp a level 6 still, up to level 50 if modded right, that's up to a balance team with more numbers than I have access to...)

 

39 minutes ago, Xepthrichros said:

Baruuk is unpopular because of the farm needed to get him and after all that farm, his power is only accessible through prolonged build up in a battle. 

I feel he's considered that way not so much do to the restriction, but because his ult is lack luster for it. It requires a hell of a lot of work to get it to function, and that work shouldn't be warranted, it should be fantastic out of the box and be BETTER as it levels. But that's another topic entirely. 
I feel the current proposition (not requirement, proposition) could be made to be a better form of that system, be what it should have been (while also just being more fun as a rolly polly ball).

39 minutes ago, Xepthrichros said:

So you want Grendel to be fodder?

No, I feel he will be, if he's implemented the way he currently is with no further refinement. 

39 minutes ago, Xepthrichros said:

The only "buff" I see you adding. Which I think is already going to be part of his kit when they showed him off. They said as he digests enemies, he will then provide some aura buff based on the enemy. 

Well that is new information to me, so thank you for that. But the other Buff I added was his digestion giving him health regen, which I feel should be in his kit just because he's like, eating things. The rest I consider more side grades for more flavor and balance, as I've stated.

39 minutes ago, Xepthrichros said:

The paragraph after and the one before, contradict each other. One moment you are against the stack and wonder why it is there, "why would I eat before I eat"... then "needs people in his belly in order to use it" - THERE, you directly proposed what your said you are questioning. In order to have people in his belly, he has to eat, so now I ask you the same thing you asked: "why would I eat before I eat".   And in addition to this, you follow up by increasing the requirement on how much he has eaten to use his 4th skill (the whole resistance build up section and energy drain costs). Can you decide? To me it just seems you are putting more limits on his 4 than needed.

I see a lack of reading comprehension, but Ill spell it out for more clarity. 

My confusion is why, in his current iteration, you would ever eat with your one, when you can just eat with your 4 faster and easier. Currently the only restriction on his four besides the random 'must have one stack' just to make his one a requirement, is that he gets dizzy, which I feel is kind of dumb and just adds a random duration element with no real line of connection.

So, my proposed idea, converts the dizzy mechanic into something you can actually control, makes it so you only eat with your one, making it actually be needed, and, then adds a little bit of a back and forth mechanic with his play style.

Instead of just pressing four (like a lot of other frames) and rolling around tell your energy runs out, or you get dizzy, you have to constantly play around with what you have, dropping out of your ball to consume and gain mass, in order to consume that mass to either gain a buff for you and your allies, or to roll around dealing massive damage scaled off the enemies you consumed. 

The energy drain was simply there do to Baruuk being a template, but honestly just having the rest of his abilities maybe cost a bit more, and then having that just run off of his digestion stacks, would probably be better (like how Nidus works with his stacking ability). With simplify the digestion choice between Armor and health or damage, or both if you consume/throw up enough, and then just have after you consume the ability to roll around all over. 

As for the rest of his abilities costing energy per second, his one already does if hes holding his target, and his two I figured it would just be a good way for it to scale the scaling buff with a scaling cost. His three would be flat though. 

this is still vary much in the air, and meant to encourage discussion and iteration. But getting attacked for trying to get a change on something that is still very much in development? that encourages neither, but at least it came up with the slight change above. Hope that cleared things up for you. 

Edited August 22, 2019 by WellIHopeThisOneWorks

[Xepthrichros]

1) Humour, not "hummer".  Very, not "vary". etc. Yes, reading comprehension usually gets affected when there are grammar and spelling issues with one communication partner. I don't expect perfection, but it doesn't change the fact that such things have effects on comprehension

2) What's wrong with standing still? Same problem which people bring up regarding Hydroid's puddle and Vauban's bastille. Telling me to be immobile in a game with people bullet jumping and finishing missions in 3 minutes. You limit the usability of that ability, which in turn hinder usability of the frame since now the frame has one ability that is not very useful in many contexts

3) I am referring to all of Baruuk, including his ult, when I talk about his bad reputation. Implementing Baruuk-like mechanics anywhere else is just bad idea to me.

4) 

22 minutes ago, WellIHopeThisOneWorks said:

My confusion is why, in his current iteration, you would ever eat with your one, when you can just eat with your 4 faster and easier

His first skill looks like it has some range to suck things that are slightly further away (perhaps not a lot further way but still a bit further). Whereas, his 4 only eats things that he collides with while in ball form. I can see 1 being used more in spaceships and corridors. Ball mode has ball physics, which can be clunky to use in small areas, plus the penalties they mentioned.

 

32 minutes ago, WellIHopeThisOneWorks said:

my proposed idea, converts the dizzy mechanic into something you can actually control, makes it so you only eat with your one, making it actually be needed, and, then adds a little bit of a back and forth mechanic with his play style.

Instead of just pressing four (like a lot of other frames) and rolling around tell your energy runs out, or you get dizzy, you have to constantly play around with what you have, dropping out of your ball to consume and gain mass, in order to consume that mass to either gain a buff for you and your allies, or to roll around dealing massive damage scaled off the enemies you consumed. 

You propose changing his 4th skill from Pac-Man with ball physics, to become bowling ball mode. Is this a correct summary? Bowling ball might be fun, depending largely on the numbers. But if the damage dealt by ball form is weaker than most melee weapons, then I suspect again people will stick with their melee over the ball and he is left with a dead 4th skill.

Personally I prefer the dev's choice of  Pac-man. 

[(PSN)FriendSharkey]

From where I'm sitting I think that as Grendel grows larger in his meatball form while consuming enemies when he comes out of it he should actually retain the mass he's acquired, so that he's now towering over his original size state for a normal countdown of 54 seconds with a damage and armor buff before reverting back to normal size...

Edited August 22, 2019 by (PS4)FriendSharkey

[PsiWarp]

I'm strictly against any form of immobile phase unless it provides a significant benefit defensively or offensively. Even full-body cast animations you find on most older frames ark me enough to warrant the use of aim-glide cast and sometimes Natural Talent.

Grendel sitting still digesting is utterly disgusting and slow, making him a giant target practice dummy. He may be opulent, but in no way is he designed to be that slow.

From what we've seen on the Devstream, his 1,2,3 all seem to kill his momentum. I'm already hoping they make them on-the-move two-handed casts like Wisp's kit. One of the reasons playing Titania feels clunky is because without Razorwing active, casting her other powers lock her in place.