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Veterans misunderstand why they don't enjoy playing the game anymore


(PSN)InkCN
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8 minutes ago, Lutesque said:

Yes... but in all the examples you mentioned (except for Dark Souls) those games weren't challenging at the expense of being Fun...

LoL.... you can't bring an Unranked Frame to ESO.... The game wont let you.... 

 

All these games had different interpretations of challenge but don't confuse challenging with difficult.You would be suprised at how many people never defeated the 1st Super Mario game but that didn't make the game to fail.That was the message i wanted to pass with my examples.

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I really don't understand these kind of threads. At one side we have : " new players are overwhelmed by contect! DE do something!" and on the other side : "old players have no content to play! DE do something!"

DE has been pushing updates regularly with small/big content for us to grind our teeth out.

Does it last long until we finnish it? Ofcourse not. What game has a sustainable endgame? 99% of games, the endgame is either lacking or simply not even there.

The thing that warframe has, and it will always have an advantage over other titles, is regular updates with more and more content.

Also, we should aproach the term "vet" with caution. What exactly does a "vet" mean?

Because latetly a lot of people calling themselves vets, bring their ideas to the forum about changing the basic aspects of the game without consideration about what warframe really is.

We are playing an ever evolving game. With new updates coming. New missions, new story, new stuff.

But we never say "hey! This is amazing. I'm playing this game for so long and it still bringing new stuff every year!"

Everyone wants Warframe to fit their own perspective of what fun is.

Let's make warframe like fortnite or sekiro or minecraft. Better yet, let's make warframe like Starcraft!

But warframe isn't those games. Warframe is warframe. And you like it. Instead of playing other games, you want yo play warframe with a game mode LIKE the other game. That's how mich you like warframe.

Also, noone ever said " hey guys, all these updates, all these bug fixes, all this new content with story and items and balancing, takes a lot of time for the devs to code, implemeny, test, fix, optimize etc.

All i see is "why isn't DE launching the update now?! I want it now! Those lazy bastards are delaying again! How hard can it be?! Just push some buttons there DE! "

But no, we enjoy to complain. We enjoy to receive their updates and piss on their work because, somehow, we expect more and more and more. Ironicaly , we get more and more and more, but still we complain.

Why?

Because we're vets?

No.

Because we're NOT vets.

A vet would know how the game began and how it is at this point. How much it evolved, how much work has been put to optimize, to create comtent, QoL, etc .

A vet would know how awful was before and how much much better is now.

A vet would know how to not burn himself and end up saying " i have nothing left to do"

 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, DeathDweller said:

All these games had different interpretations of challenge but don't confuse challenging with difficult.You would be suprised at how many people never defeated the 1st Super Mario game but that didn't make the game to fail.That was the message i wanted to pass with my examples.

Im not surprised at all... IM ONE OF THOSE PEOPLE !!! 😞

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4 hours ago, Fire2box said:

3. DE finally steps up and makes content for all three tiers of players. new, mid game and endgame. You know what I've ever seen from the community? Asking DE to leave players behind. 

And there is the failure of every vet...scratch that, of every endgame or "I'm bored" vet. This game is gigantic but, if played for years and years and years, no amount of development time can provide a "fix" for those types of players. The focus, therefore, shouldn't be on players they will not be able to please. 

Here's the thing: Disruption is a great game mode but it's a game mode within the same game with a difficulty level most can't handle past the second round. Those "hardcore vets" that have reached 4k+ points there have already gotten the rewards and are demanding more content while the new and average players are struggling. So, what do you do? Would you create harder stuff that would satisfy the few vets for a while but piss off the new and mid level players or would you stay with what made Warframe one of the greatest games ever made? 

Lastly, don't be fooled folks. DE has worked harder than most AAA companies and have cursed themselves by openly keeping us in the loop of progress. We are spoiled to demand sustainable content that could last every type of player till another update while STILL DEMANDING EVERYTHING IN BETWEEN. Try as hard as you may but there is no maturity in a demand to continually feed an addiction. Taking a break is the best and most logical advice and you guys are fighting it as if Warframe somehow cheated you? This entire vet thing will go down in history as the dumbest issue in millennial gaming history. I still place the blame squarely on a few content creators though. Bashing a business that placed you on the map is dumb as hell. 

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Personally I think right now there are two core issues:

  • Veteran players remember a time when Warframe was getting regular, small parcels of content. Yes, a lot of those were simple things like new weapons, but it meant almost every week there was something new to try out. Right now Warframe has become something more akin to a conventional triple A game, like Destiny, with large parcels of content delivered infrequently, with long content droughts in between punctuated by updates with cash shop items only.
  • From a business perspective, veteran players do not enrich Warframe as they are far less likely to spend real money than new players, as they have already likely invested money into the game and have reach a stage where they are now grinding for all the items they want. There will always be exceptions to this, but as with Games Workshop and the transition from it's 2nd to 3rd Edition of Warhammer 40,000, the focus has shifted to the detriment of veteran players.

The fact that a number of the Content Creator for Warframe are either abandoning it entirely due to burnout, or are simply not making videos and streams due to a lack of things to talk about indicative of this transition and it honestly makes me worried about the long term future of the game unless DE pauses to look at what is happening and actively decides to try and do something to slow the departures.

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STOP !! Stop playing Warframe (at least for some amount of time). Playing a game countless of hours every day isn't sustainable unless unlimited amount of content (spoiler: it's impossible).

Revelation

I totally agree as a vet i mean out there is a crazy amount of games you can play with. If you are not interested into an other game a will give an adivice if an Big Update releases just STOP grind that hard i mean gauss is not going to be removed from the game after a while so chill don't grind for the weapons just don't you have a lot already as a vet already owning broken weapons so no point , Just play for an hour a day(if you are so desperate and you want to play warframe) you will have time to do your grind for a little bit and you play the game as you want. I was the player who i would play(had warframe running) 10 hours per day so i had a lot of time to do stuff with the result to start seeing warframe as a boring game (playing 5 years)I Just have done all of it Let me Give you an example, You have purchased a single player game you finished the story= you have finished the game unlocked all the customizations collected all the collectables so dead end nothing to do ITS NORMAL after a while you don't have something to do with it so you move on starting playing an other game.I mean yeah sure all players want more content but NO you don't want more content YOU want More BIG Content we get Updates like Tusk thumpers, POE remaster, Jovian Concord, but they we don't get the Game Changer we want we only get changes to some stuff like new UI and all that sure but this is not what we want maybe the solution should be release Big Updates With A LOT content like fortuna not only a new gamemode with slightly new mods and no rewards for the vets to play.But this is IMPOSSIBLE SO JUST TAKE A BREAK . Play other games learn new stuff that you are interested with.

Anyway guys DE knows what is doing (i believe) they want to release 2-3 BIG Updates in 1 year like this year 1. Big Update Jovian Concord 2. Empyrean 3.New War and Last year we got 2 big updates 1.Sacrifice 2.Fortuna DON'T FORGET warframe will be here for a long time so chill if they release all the good stuff now (something they are not able to do) what they will release in the feature check overwatch for example i think has 1-2 Updates that they get new map and a new champion nothing else i am not sure i don't play overwatch i mean just chill guys and ENJOY LIFE ^^      oh that comment was a big one xD

 

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On 2019-08-22 at 8:17 PM, (PS4)InkCN said:

Phase 2: Bring purpose to the "looter"

The entire looting aspect of Warframe follow this one rule: Everything you do or collect will turn out useful in your progression sooner or later. Nothing is actually useless in the game, and it helps giving the player a sense of accomplishment even tho he might not even know what he is grinding towards at the moment. You end up doing and collecting everything because you have the certainty you're not waisting your time whatever you're doing or will wanna achieve later. Except grinding has an inevitable limitation which is itself, you cannot farm more than what there is to be farm.

There are a plethora of useless items and mods in the game mate.  While I do agree that there needs to be more purpose  about 85% of the mods in the game are .... useless.... and as a vet myself I don’t appreciate the ideology that it’s our fault that we believe that DE puts out half baked content. Most of us feel this way because most of the content is... well half baked unpolished or an unfinished idea that gets left for them to pick up something else 

 

On 2019-08-22 at 9:02 PM, (PS4)GEN-Son_17 said:

Thus, the vets who are bored SHOULD step away, allow the new generation to begin their journey and wait until thegame has evolved enough to give you a fresh new feeling. Personally, I'm 5 years in and still haven't completed everything so I have nothing but respect for ANY form of entertainment that has kept me engaged this long. I can offer constructive criticism but never a complaint. DE's product is too good for that. 

Again telling us to leave because it’s nothing to do for us isn’t a solution. DE’s product is far from perfect and has been lacking in quality for a while at least in my opinion.

 

On 2019-08-22 at 8:42 PM, Bloop said:
On 2019-08-22 at 8:17 PM, (PS4)InkCN said:

Phase 1: Turn the "rpg/shooter" into something unique

This point isn't exactly relevant to argue anything, especially given the topic title. We all liked it, we all LIKE it.

On 2019-08-22 at 8:17 PM, (PS4)InkCN said:

Phase 2: Bring purpose to the "looter"

Everything you do or collect will turn out useful in your progression sooner or later. Nothing is actually useless in the game.

Tell that to the ammo drums, Sure Shots, and so on, useless mods that haven't been buffed after years, which even new players begin to understand how useless they actually are mechanically.

Or the millions of resources that have no use, especially when you own a clan and all research is done, because there is not much content that helps keep clans alive either.

On 2019-08-22 at 8:17 PM, (PS4)InkCN said:

Phase 3: Draw attention away from the grind to break the "repetitive" loop

Trying this only gets you so far, and yet, I'm still trying to see what your point exactly is.

 

On 2019-08-22 at 8:17 PM, (PS4)InkCN said:

Phase 4: The veteran dilemma

You call it hating as if we hated the game. I'm sorry to burst your bubble, we don't. We don't hate the game, being critic with a game doesn't by any means imply there's hate, some of us just don't like how things are being handled, and that's pretty much it.

 

On 2019-08-22 at 8:17 PM, (PS4)InkCN said:

Phase 5: The solution

This gives nothing new either, that's the first thing a lot of people resort to.

Frankly, the points given here are just assumptions with a very obvious answer, and then you finish it with a "nobody is in the wrong", which is not realistic.

Check the game activity from "big" updates, then check the three months afterwards, you'll see what's going on, it's certainly not just us, it's certainly not hating the game, it's the fact that people don't stick around for long enough because you can breeze through content like it's nothing.

And no, it doesn't take countless of hours every day to do this. Most nightwave acts can be done in less than 2 hours. Leveling a warframe, with your buddy: 3 minutes easily. Leveling and formaing a weapon? Less than 30 minutes. Then what's left? Nothing, no incentive to play at all until we get new content (that sadly, we'll breeze through in less than a month), and content, as you said, is taking longer and longer times, which is making even content creators either take a break or straight up leave.

A game should avoid living off activity spikes

Ahh... never mind someone beat me to it

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Hmmm.  Not sure if anyone has said this but maybe we should ask why some veterans like playing the game and some don't and what are the percentages.  It's possible that the percentage of mid-experience people who don't like playing is the same as that for vets, or noobs, in which case not sure whether DE can do anything about it if they each want something different.

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6 hours ago, Hououza said:

Personally I think right now there are two core issues:

  • Veteran players remember a time when Warframe was getting regular, small parcels of content. Yes, a lot of those were simple things like new weapons, but it meant almost every week there was something new to try out. Right now Warframe has become something more akin to a conventional triple A game, like Destiny, with large parcels of content delivered infrequently, with long content droughts in between punctuated by updates with cash shop items only.
  • From a business perspective, veteran players do not enrich Warframe as they are far less likely to spend real money than new players, as they have already likely invested money into the game and have reach a stage where they are now grinding for all the items they want. There will always be exceptions to this, but as with Games Workshop and the transition from it's 2nd to 3rd Edition of Warhammer 40,000, the focus has shifted to the detriment of veteran players.

The fact that a number of the Content Creator for Warframe are either abandoning it entirely due to burnout, or are simply not making videos and streams due to a lack of things to talk about indicative of this transition and it honestly makes me worried about the long term future of the game unless DE pauses to look at what is happening and actively decides to try and do something to slow the departures.

I understand where you're coming from but you have to remember that, at that same time, people were complaining about wanting something bigger as well. The bigger issue is still players expecting DE to give them content their multi year experience can be "tested on", frequently and without the optimal methods to do it. If all of those requirements are needed to please the same group that will eventually tell everyone how to win anyway, then why bother with it now. 

The best solution for DE is to continue what they're doing. If the content looks good then come back. If not, play Anthem the "Warframe killer".

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11 hours ago, RunsWithChainsaws said:

btw...props to DE for all the bug fixes...we get bug fixes in a week or two where some other games, especially those that are PC only have bugs for months or years or ones that have never been fixed.

Warframe has had bugs for years that they ignore as well and many of the big content added is usually delayed a bit to fix stuff and it still released extremely buggy.

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9 hours ago, (PS4)GEN-Son_17 said:

Would you create harder stuff that would satisfy the few vets for a while but piss off the new and mid level players or would you stay with what made Warframe one of the greatest games ever made? 

That's what DE wanted with sorties, that's the entire purpose of them. 

Edited by Fire2box
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9 hours ago, (PS4)GEN-Son_17 said:

This entire vet thing will go down in history as the dumbest issue in millennial gaming history.

Warframe is still a game that's barely spoken about the the zeitgeist of gaming. And honestly unless DE changes something or players just do the same content over and over and over being happy as the first time they played it, they'll get to the point where they've done everything too. 

For now the only people who can be happy in warframe are the newer players, because the longer you play and get to know the game the more the flaws will show. 

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Цитата

At some point the magic trick of phase 3 will stop working on you because there's literally nothing left for you to grind. 

Yeah if you create nothing new.

Ironically, Destiny 2 that is a worse game almost in all aspects doesnt have that problem. Because it keeps raisinng the bar and because armor and weapons mean something there.

In warframe tho they mean nothing.

But whatever, I personally could live on cosmetics, new warframes and lore missions alone but guess what, warframe manages to **ck all of those up, especially new missions.

It even manages to **ck up missions that are new and I enjoy somewhat like ESO and Arbitration by not having *anything* there as rewards and in case of arbitration not allowing you to play modes you actually want to.

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4 hours ago, Swagernator22663 said:

Imagine someone telling you why you dont enjoy the game, what a prophet.

Can relate. I chuckled reading OP opening and first thing I thought was "great, someone who thinks he/she can explain to me my own opinions on the game, except that those are not my opinions and OP is just trying to convince of something I totally don't agree with".

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34 minutes ago, Olphalarepth said:

Can relate. I chuckled reading OP opening and first thing I thought was "great, someone who thinks he/she can explain to me my own opinions on the game, except that those are not my opinions and OP is just trying to convince of something I totally don't agree with".

It does seem a bit, misguided in a way.

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Not a vet here, but the thing I hate most atm is the NPCs from chorewave coming in and spoiling my syndicate missions or invasion missions, making it so it's a risk to even go looking for syndicate marks in any of the missions.  I've had interceptions and spy mission fail several times just because of zealot whosises.  Not cool to have to repeat missions that I have already spent quite a bit of time on to find the marks.  I've even decided to not do the invasion spy or rescue missions AT ALL because they seem to be doomed to failure.

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13 hours ago, YouJustMetYourDeath said:

STOP !! Stop playing Warframe (at least for some amount of time). Playing a game countless of hours every day isn't sustainable unless unlimited amount of content (spoiler: it's impossible).

  Reveal hidden contents

I totally agree as a vet i mean out there is a crazy amount of games you can play with. If you are not interested into an other game a will give an adivice if an Big Update releases just STOP grind that hard i mean gauss is not going to be removed from the game after a while so chill don't grind for the weapons just don't you have a lot already as a vet already owning broken weapons so no point , Just play for an hour a day(if you are so desperate and you want to play warframe) you will have time to do your grind for a little bit and you play the game as you want. I was the player who i would play(had warframe running) 10 hours per day so i had a lot of time to do stuff with the result to start seeing warframe as a boring game (playing 5 years)I Just have done all of it Let me Give you an example, You have purchased a single player game you finished the story= you have finished the game unlocked all the customizations collected all the collectables so dead end nothing to do ITS NORMAL after a while you don't have something to do with it so you move on starting playing an other game.I mean yeah sure all players want more content but NO you don't want more content YOU want More BIG Content we get Updates like Tusk thumpers, POE remaster, Jovian Concord, but they we don't get the Game Changer we want we only get changes to some stuff like new UI and all that sure but this is not what we want maybe the solution should be release Big Updates With A LOT content like fortuna not only a new gamemode with slightly new mods and no rewards for the vets to play.But this is IMPOSSIBLE SO JUST TAKE A BREAK . Play other games learn new stuff that you are interested with.

Anyway guys DE knows what is doing (i believe) they want to release 2-3 BIG Updates in 1 year like this year 1. Big Update Jovian Concord 2. Empyrean 3.New War and Last year we got 2 big updates 1.Sacrifice 2.Fortuna DON'T FORGET warframe will be here for a long time so chill if they release all the good stuff now (something they are not able to do) what they will release in the feature check overwatch for example i think has 1-2 Updates that they get new map and a new champion nothing else i am not sure i don't play overwatch i mean just chill guys and ENJOY LIFE ^^      oh that comment was a big one xD

 

Except the problem with your "spoiler" is much of that listed isn't actually big content, it's fluff it has no real substance. 

Tusk Thumpers added one new enemy type, singular, One that gives rewards only new players need, but only vet players can kill.

PoE Remaster is just a facelift on The Plains of Eidolon, not adding new missions, rewards, or anything else.

The Jovian Concord. I'm not going to deny that the new maps don't look nice, or there isn't minute details in things - nor do I mean to insult anyone who worked on it.

However, there is very little sustainable content here, once you kill the new boss and get wisp - you're done, no reason to do it again. Once you've done the new disruption game mode and gotten the new resource needed to make the new stuff, you're done. Why is that? No. Actual. Rewards.

There isn't an incentive to keep doing that content when there is no actual reward for it. Why do people play Defection? To get harrow, once they've done it, they stay away from it, same with salvage for nidus. 

Fortuna is the same way, you complete the missions and - you're done. Only a handful of other missions have a reason to continue, but their subjective. If you don't care for cosmetics, no reason to run Exploiter Orb indefinitely to get the Empherema's. The only redeemable feature, is they added mutagen mass, Injectors, Fieldrons (in rotation) with the normal bounties, but in turn gutted invasions, because that was one of the main reasons players did invasions besides weapon parts.

While I cannot say for certain with Empyrean - my first impressions seem to not really fit within the rest of the design of Warframe. Very slowly paced, and while I haven't seen any rewards, I don't expect anything actually rewarding, looking at DE's track record (call me a pessimist but the evidence is there). 

If DE want Warframe to keep vet players entertained too, then they need to get rid of this "complete it then abandon it" mentality. You defeat a boss on the starchart and get the respective frame, you're done with it. There is no reason why players should be leaving or getting burnt out in the manner they are. It's due to DE's warped / flawed design with Warframe and their lack of ingenuity. They keep using the same formula (complete it, abandon it) mentality, they have quite a few different little things that they could easily add and breathe new life into dead parts of warframe.

Anyone remember the challenge rooms in the void? How they were a big deal to find when you were a new player, but after MR 8 or so became "meh" because you either had all the rewards (which are worthless for trading for plat) or because you had something better?  Focus there, and branch out to other things. 

In a looter shooter, players mainly play to get better loot and progress, but also want a challenge for that progression, being able to defeat enemies they previously couldn't. However, you can reach that 'level' very quickly, and then end up staying at a 'always defeating whatever you find' stage and that never changes, and those things that can challenge you are far beyond the 'balance scope' of what DE has selected. 

 

I've said it before, DE can easily (quite easily) appeal to both casual players (done already, they'll be entertained for at least 1-2 full years at this point if nothing was added for them) and vet players looking for a challenge.  Focus on some older content that few play, change it how it needs to be to make it enticing (increase rewards, change loot tables, reward endurance runs, etc) and possibly change how the mission works in general.   Start small and think big.  I mean, any step towards an endgame or a challenge for vets is the step in the right direction - and anyone paying attention will notice that.  Treating older players as just something to spit out to let newer players in isn't a good thing, the revolving door.

 

Especially, when I have more hours in other games that haven't gotten an update in nearly a decade, that still keep me entertained and involved more than Warframe does with less than 1/4th of the time. I love warframe, I love the ideas and potential it has, but it hurts so much that DE would pander to newer players that won't invest nearly as much time, yet leave many of their dedicated fanbase in the dark or behind. You can see how this effects the community, look no further than the Youtubers who post content, so little has been posted in recent months due to there being nothing to do. And the reason why there is nothing, is because of that "complete it, then abandon it" you've gotten the rewards, and the rest of the 'rewards' are just credit caches, low levels of endo or insulting duplicates (common mods that shouldn't be in the droptable, cosmetics that we have x50+ blueprints of etc). 

So.. DE has some work to do, but saying that it's impossible to play without getting burnt out - that's naive.

 

 

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