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"Echoes of Umbra" feedback

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in response to the footage seen on prime time, i love the idea of the mechanic, but as it was presented it doesn't seem worth farming Lua/Kuva Fort disruptions in order to give a frame sentience, especially if you want to manage it on multiple frames at once

2 ideas:

1: Halve the duration of the effect, but allow the frames to use abilities
certain frames having access to abilities in an umbra-like state is extremely powerful, which is probably why this wasn't considered in the first place, but it makes picking a warframe to inject this into a much more involved decision, having a rhino roar for you while you're using an operator to revive a teammate is a nice bonus, and would be worth considering putting in the effort to build a few echoes to inject when needed

2: A limited amount of permanent upgrades
an alternative, with the original "only weapons" in mind, is to allow the echoes to somehow be indefinite on a chosen frame so that you dont have make a material check every time you want to make use of the sentience feature, this could perhaps be done by making the echoes much more of a material sink, so that farming to build them is a long grind with a strong payoff, or even keeping the echoes as they are, but adding a much stronger "echo" upgrade to be chosen from that gives the permanent sentience (perhaps limited to a locked number of frames, to make the decision require a bit more thought)

very excited to see this feature implemented and expanded upon (hopefully), its nice to have a new use for helminth

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I want to see their drop rates to begin with. I can't find a reason to have it be time limited, especially when you need to farm its materials as if it was argon.

Also, Roar wouldn't really do much for you as operator, as only a handful of abilities affect operator damage, and they do it passively.

I'm all up for the second option, have it be a limited amount, but permanent. Time limited umbra ai would only lead to one thing: People will eventually get tired of it and see no point, when they could either bring Umbra or even Wukong if they wanted an active specter.

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How about having this effect permanent for warframes with Umbra Forma installed? Seems fair to me.

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It sounds fascinating, but I have some concerns. 

It also reminds me of pet stabilizers, except that while now stabilizers are pocket change rather than a chore to maintain like it was back when I first unlocked Kubrows, I don't see farming specifically Lua Disruption (And possibly Kuva Fortress as well if the blueprint isn't reusable which I don't remember being mentioned either way) for echo parts ever being anything but a chore to maintain, especially if that's the only thing of note from Lua Disruption.  I still need to farm tons of Hexenon, Cryotic, Plastids, Mutagen Samples, tons of prime parts and by extension traces, just as a few examples and farming a node that drops possibly none of those just so I can enable a feature that might help me farm other nodes where those drop doesn't sound appealing at all.

Sure, maybe it's not something that you're supposed to maintain, just use it when you think you'll want some aimbot help.  But then I worry it sounds very clunky and inconvenient even to only occasionally use.

Ability use would be nice, though.  It could be argued that Umbra would have no idea how to use, for example, Titania's abilities, but with no abilities being used it really removes most of the distinctions between frames.  On the other hand, depending on what I'm doing I may not want my Frame messing with my plans beyond just shooting things, doubly so if it had any sort of energy cost for the AI to use them.  I guess I'm on the fence there.

From a story standpoint, though, while I was still partly hoping for a way to permanently "awaken" our other Warframes to act independently, I accept that it seems to be specifically a quirk in Umbra and Umbra alone due to Ballas's actions that causes that independence, and installing copies of Umbra's mind sounds like an interesting compromise.

Overall, I'm apprehensive about it.  I'll need to see a comprehensive workshop or something about it, but based on the admittedly extremely limited amount of information I currently have I don't expect to use it more than once just for the novelty.

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Aside from the lore, not sure how I really feel about it. I mean, it’s cool and all but it would neat if it was permanent instead of having it for 24 hours, but it’s understandable since they are incentivizing us to go back the game mode.

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1 hour ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

Is that really the “unique reward” being given by the disruptions? *sigh* that’s.....disappointing.

First time?

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Uh-oh, I just realised a thing that needs to be said. Straight to the point, there are going to be such weird things like sentient Garuda targeting her own Blood Altars, just as all the pet/specter AIs do, rendering herself or other sentient warframes completely useless in that mode, and exactly the same thing would happen to Titania and her Lantern. As you can see, these poorly designed in terms of friendly AI behaviour abilities are literally blossoming with a trolling potential. Not sure if there are other warframes that have similar abilities. I hope some dev will read this and do something before rolling out the mainline.

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In my opinion it's gonna be an expensive gimmick. Specters can do a better job at a relatively low and maybe even non existent cost (crafting vapor specters is as easy as it gets). 

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Its a wierd reward honestly. Umbras passive is such a gimmick that is simultaneously incredibly powerful and utreely useless. 

Its powerdul because it can essentially automate the game for you any time anywhere with the press of a button. It gets worse with frames where tou can just stack defensive abilities for even easier afking. 

No one is going to seriously use operstor form because its terrible to use outside of throwing out random CC or using the passive. If you do end upngoing into operstor mode the frame will get like... 5 kills on its own if that in a few seconds.

Its basically something that can be used to just automate the game with high powered weapons and strong defensive powers but will almost never matter for people who are actually trying to play the game. Maybe itll kill a few enemies if you go into operator mode to revive people? But its not like you need enemies to die since youre invincible.

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Il y a 11 heures, Bloop a dit :

I want to see their drop rates to begin with. I can't find a reason to have it be time limited, especially when you need to farm its materials as if it was argon.

Also, Roar wouldn't really do much for you as operator, as only a handful of abilities affect operator damage, and they do it passively.

I'm all up for the second option, have it be a limited amount, but permanent. Time limited umbra ai would only lead to one thing: People will eventually get tired of it and see no point, when they could either bring Umbra or even Wukong if they wanted an active specter.

The idea of this system is to provide a reward to get you back in missions. Right now you get everything and you don't get back there.
It's a try for infinite rewards. Making it permanent would negate their intention here.

 

Il y a 8 heures, --C--Nehra a dit :

In my opinion it's gonna be an expensive gimmick. Specters can do a better job at a relatively low and maybe even non existent cost (crafting vapor specters is as easy as it gets). 

Except it will use Modded weapons instead of unmodded weapons for specters. We've no ideas how costly it will be yet.

 

Il y a 7 heures, Annnoth a dit :

Its a wierd reward honestly. Umbras passive is such a gimmick that is simultaneously incredibly powerful and utreely useless. 

Its powerdul because it can essentially automate the game for you any time anywhere with the press of a button. It gets worse with frames where tou can just stack defensive abilities for even easier afking. 

No one is going to seriously use operstor form because its terrible to use outside of throwing out random CC or using the passive. If you do end upngoing into operstor mode the frame will get like... 5 kills on its own if that in a few seconds.

Its basically something that can be used to just automate the game with high powered weapons and strong defensive powers but will almost never matter for people who are actually trying to play the game. Maybe itll kill a few enemies if you go into operator mode to revive people? But its not like you need enemies to die since youre invincible.

That's the part that suprised me too somehow. I'm not really expecting a big success here. I'd be disappointed if DE abandon this idea to provide infinite rewards though.

That's the good idea, I hope they would have started with something more useful, or fun, or anything else than this.

 

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1 minute ago, AkyFenrir said:

The idea of this system is to provide a reward to get you back in missions. Right now you get everything and you don't get back there.
It's a try for infinite rewards. Making it permanent would negate their intention here.

If the only "worthwhile" reward that mission may have is Umbra AI (or flawed AI,  as I like to call it), I'll definitely pick using Celestial Twin and keep going.

A lot of players do not even need this umbra effect, it's just a mechanic done for funsies, but there will be no incentive to it after using it several times. It's like farming argon, except in this case you farm the echoes to enjoy them for a couple of times, then you stop doing this. Argon at least has a purpose.

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il y a 4 minutes, Bloop a dit :

If the only "worthwhile" reward that mission may have is Umbra AI (or flawed AI,  as I like to call it), I'll definitely pick using Celestial Twin and keep going.

A lot of players do not even need this umbra effect, it's just a mechanic done for funsies, but there will be no incentive to it after using it several times. It's like farming argon, except in this case you farm the echoes to enjoy them for a couple of times, then you stop doing this. Argon at least has a purpose.

that's why I said this 

il y a 8 minutes, AkyFenrir a dit :

That's the part that suprised me too somehow. I'm not really expecting a big success here. I'd be disappointed if DE abandon this idea to provide infinite rewards though.

That's the good idea, I hope they would have started with something more useful, or fun, or anything else than this.

about Annoth message. I'm 100% with you on this.

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There is still at least 3 types of forma they haven't added and this is what we get?

 

Hey tenno, if you got this resource you can just chill and afk for a limited time.... I don't get the point of it really.

I'm guessing it's more of something that sounds cool, but really shouldn't be a thing (like riven transmuters)

 

In case anyone cares or by some chance someone at DE reads this the 3 types of forma would be:

Sustainable Forma: Forma the weapon or frame without resetting its rank

Dual Forma: Does reset the rank, but it adds 2 of the same polarity instead of 1

Riven forma: Gives a random polarity (including umbral?)

 

Those are at least 3 of the concepts I'm aware of. Names for them were thought up on the spot.

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11 hours ago, Bloop said:

I can't find a reason to have it be time limited, especially when you need to farm its materials as if it was argon.

It has to be limited because, and I paraphrase the general gist of what DE will see whenever they casually look at feedback section

"something something brain dead gameplay something whining something AFK to win abuse something nerf it please something something no reason to go back to game modes after we got their rewards something something"

DE: oh got it. we will be sure to nerf things before even releasing them. and create expiry dates so you have to farm it repeatedly

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2 minutes ago, Xepthrichros said:

DE: oh got it. we will be sure to nerf things before even releasing them. and create expiry dates so you have to farm it repeatedly

At that point, they might as well not release anything.

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You forgot to mention that Umbra would need some kind of compensation for that. DE just took away his passive - one of the few things that make him unique - and alows you to slap it on any frame with grand wall behind it. DE, your idea is dissapointing and Umbra needs some love

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I would have to agree with a lot of the feedback that this addition really does feel like a mistake. 

[DE] Rebecca mentioned that they were going to be monitoring the reward before release for testing to ensure that it does not cause AFKing, but... honestly... it seems unavoidable; It's practically all you see whenever an Excalibur Umbra is around.

Also, they had mentioned that there were going to be more Umbra frames released in the future, and if this gimmick is spoiled and can be put onto any frame (even just for 24 hours), what's really going to make those true Umbra frames unique?

It's not the the Umbra mechanic is overly strong by itself... it's just that it honestly does cause an incredible amount of AFK cheesing; it's like @Annnoth said:

9 hours ago, Annnoth said:

It's a weird reward honestly. Umbra's passive is such a gimmick that is simultaneously incredibly powerful and utterly useless. 

Its powerful because it can essentially automate the game for you any time anywhere with the press of a button. It gets worse with frames where you can just stack defensive abilities for even easier afking. {Inaros using Negation Swarm augment}

No one is going to seriously use operator form because its terrible to use outside of throwing out random CC or using the passive. If you do end up going into operator mode the frame will get like... 5 kills on its own if that in a few seconds.

Its basically something that can be used to just automate the game with high powered weapons and strong defensive powers but will almost never matter for people who are actually trying to play the game. Maybe it'll kill a few enemies if you go into operator mode to revive people? But its not like you need enemies to die since youre invincible.

 

It's strange... because on one hand, the effect should be permanent and remain on the frame - however, on the other hand it should just not be added to the game (at least not in this way)

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 <SPOILERS>

At the end of Prime Time #258 (43:00) 

We will be able to install a "echoes of umbra" into our WFs via Hemlith chair. It's a 2 part reward drop from the new disruption zones coming in the PC mainline later this month. 

It allows your WF to move freely when in Operator mode for 24 hours like Umbra.

That said, if these echo parts have a uncommon or rare drop rate, I believe after aquired, crafted and installed into your frame of choice, it should be a permanent option Meaning, that the Warframe you choose to install the echo in will be able to be "Umbralized" or "DeUmbralized" by visiting the chair. No more 24 hour window.

This will do 2 things. 

1. There will soon be 42 Warframes available. With more at least every 3 months. That alone is enough of a reason to keep going back to farm these echos. To Umbralize and collect all frames. 

2. Also having the Helmith room more legitimate, giving it more of a purpose wouldn't change. 

With that, Now we would have some sense of sustainable gameplay.

Please consider. 

Thank you

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The fact that it isnt permanent and if that wasnt enough it isnt that great a thing to do anyway as the AI is terrible makes this an automatic ignore and no disruption gameplay for me unless we get a actual GOOD reward...

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14 minutes ago, (XB1)SixGunLove said:

That said, if these echos have a ridiculously low drop rate, I believe after aquired and installed into your frame of choice, it should be a permanent option Meaning, that the Warframe you choose to install the echo in will be able to be "Umbralized" or "DeUmbralized" by visiting the chair. No more 24 hour window.

Question then: if you Umbra all 42 frames, then what's the point in going back to play Disruption?

People asked for a reason to go back and play Disruption (really any gamemode can fit here). Making it a permanent feature defeats that purpose. That's why they won't do it.

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2 minutes ago, (XB1)Skippy575 said:

Question then: if you Umbra all 42 frames, then what's the point in going back to play Disruption?

100 times this.

Depending on how expensive/grindy it will be, we'll have to see if it's worth. And if you don't use Operator much this is wasted in all scenarios

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1 hour ago, TehGrief said:

I would have to agree with a lot of the feedback that this addition really does feel like a mistake. 

[DE] Rebecca mentioned that they were going to be monitoring the reward before release for testing to ensure that it does not cause AFKing, but... honestly... it seems unavoidable; It's practically all you see whenever an Excalibur Umbra is around.

Also, they had mentioned that there were going to be more Umbra frames released in the future, and if this gimmick is spoiled and can be put onto any frame (even just for 24 hours), what's really going to make those true Umbra frames unique?

It's not the the Umbra mechanic is overly strong by itself... it's just that it honestly does cause an incredible amount of AFK cheesing; it's like @Annnoth said:

 

It's strange... because on one hand, the effect should be permanent and remain on the frame - however, on the other hand it should just not be added to the game (at least not in this way)

I was actuslly thinking snowglobe or mass vertify. Who cares if your ai who you can heal back up gets knocked down. Avoiding knockdowns is more to get rid of frustration than to save your own hide.

With snowglobe you completely shut down the fact operstors only have limited energy. This negates needing energy packs and lets you afk even harder without hitting an energy pack every 30 seconds.

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