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"Echoes of Umbra" feedback

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I don't have suggestions on how to make Echoes of Umbra successful. I do however have a player's insight of why I won't be using them if they're to be as I understand them currently proposed. Echoes of Umbra require two parts that are rewards from disruptions. After crafted they will be applied to a warframe for a single day's duration. Echoes allow warframes to see parity in functionality of the Excalibur Umbra warframe; Pseudo Autopilot while the player is actively using their operator.

I don't use my operator enough because it's not as strong as my warframe in all three metrics; Mobility, Toughness, Damage. My decision won't ever be to make my warframe fill in for me when I'm occasionally using my operator. When I do use my Operator I do so to heal myself, companions, squadmates, etc and then also stun enemies.

Umbra Echoes don't fit within my current playstyle and as currently proposed don't offer much in new creative opportunities.

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il y a 2 minutes, zekkzekk a dit :

I don't have suggestions on how to make Echoes of Umbra successful. I do however have a player's insight of why I won't be using them if they're to be as I understand them currently proposed. Echoes of Umbra require two parts that are rewards from disruptions. After crafted they will be applied to a warframe for a single day's duration. Echoes allow warframes to see parity in functionality of the Excalibur Umbra warframe; Pseudo Autopilot while the player is actively using their operator.

That's how it's been introduced

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il y a 1 minute, DeathDweller a dit :

You said it's their first shot.

I meant the utility... and I said what DE dev said...

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6 hours ago, artb1111 said:

I do not know how others play, but I often use specter in the game. Pocket healer can save the team.
I would like in this update to make switching abilities. Some abilities of the specter is inappropriate and often prevent, such as Sandstorm of Inaros, 3 sec Strangledome, Balefire, etc.  
For example make permanent disabling ultimate for the majority specter and variable disable other abilities that affect gameplay, like for the specter and for future frames with the "echoes of umbra". I think it can radically change the attitude to this update.
ps. спасибо тебе Я.Переводчик 😜

 

The Umbra'd Warframe was restricted from using any abilities.

6 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

We're going to hold this back to act on weekend feedback and more - 2 days isn't enough time to inject all the changes we want to add, so we will release this at a later date in a different form. The reward will likely be replaced with a new 'Lua Lens' for earning Focus - details to come!

I am glad to hear more thought is being put into this intended reward, and that a backup has been worked in; I am very interested to hear about a Lua Lens, and would like to know if this represents another Focus rework or lens reshuffle.

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vor 7 Stunden schrieb [DE]Rebecca:

We're going to hold this back to act on weekend feedback and more - 2 days isn't enough time to inject all the changes we want to add, so we will release this at a later date in a different form. The reward will likely be replaced with a new 'Lua Lens' for earning Focus - details to come!

Please make it permanent ! 

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As someone who has used their two umbral formas on Valkyr hoping it would make her into Valkyr Umbra I love the idea behind giving your favorite warframe sentience, I just don't think having it be a limited timed renewal element (it's like DNA stabilization but worse) nor removing the ability for them to use abilities makes up for the grind involved.

At the very least I think there should be a progression system of sorts in terms of making your ai umbral warframe more capable in regards to ability and weapon proficiency which could be the hook to continue playing these disruption gametypes.

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Yo seriously, this ain't it guys. If you wanted to really put some genuine Umbral lore make a skill tree that shows different types of Umbral abilities.This worked wonders for The Second Dream and with the amps for POE. Its sustainable content that expands the usage of different mechanics.There is no need for any warframe to just purely shoot/slash enemies without abilities. There is very AND I STRESS VERY little reason to have a sentient warframe that can use powers. That's what specters are for. Essentially, you guys have told us "you see those specters? We're going to give you that but nerf it into the ground as a reward for this new thing we're trying".To add even more insult to injury, you make it last 24 hours?!?!   No, this is not enough. DE please stop playing around and release actual work (woo here come the knights). Rio, Mogamu, Potato, Rob all those wonderful PARTNERS have told you this aint it yet you continue to show us things like this and the shawzin and shaders. NO! Go to work put out something great not (in the words of a great anime teacher) Half-assed. you guys have more than the potential of doing so withing the company...i know because you've done it before,

 

most sincerely 

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12 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

 The reward will likely be replaced with a new 'Lua Lens' for earning Focus - details to come!

I'm interested to see what this reward will be, and if it will have any unique properties.I'm hoping it brings some kind of Focus sink, as the current Focus system is in need of one.
One you have all the schools capped out (either fully or just the ones you  care about) there's no use for all the millions of spare focus you will eventually gather over time.

I'd happily play the content for how ever long is required, and burn a few million focus + Lua Lens in order to unlock an extra Operator Arcane slot or two.

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On 2019-08-23 at 5:51 PM, (XB1)Skippy575 said:

Question then: if you Umbra all 42 frames, then what's the point in going back to play Disruption?

Make it tradable! 😄

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I had made a suggestion in missions and levels, I will add it here too, 

Umbrafication is not really a preferred option when the AI is rather dumb, it can also be rather disadvantageous if they run into enemies or place themselves in regions of danger. There have been more than enough times when the umbra has less health than when I transfered out, it's not a pleasant experience 

I would much rather have the option to increase the base attributes of the frame (increase armor, speed, health, shield) instead of sentience. 

Umbra usually casts his blind attack when I transfer out giving him an edge and reason to actually use him, this advantage is lost with any other frame that does not use some sort of ability with some utility. 

So a kind of option to set conditions to use abilities would definitely be preferred too. Like ffxii gambit. 

 

I will definitely not be using this on any frame for actual gameplay, maybe as a joke or something with wukong and Equinox. 

There's no real incentive to use it. 

I am also not going to care about the Lua focus lens, unless it is removable, I already have all the focus I need. But if you were going to actually add to the focus I might reconsider. 

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Rewards need to actually offer a benefit in some way to be considered as such. I don't see value in my frame walking off from where I left it.. more a negative really

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26 minutes ago, Jax_Cavalera said:

Rewards need to actually offer a benefit in some way to be considered as such. I don't see value in my frame walking off from where I left it.. more a negative really

I could see that stance pretty easily, and very much agree that rewards need to offer some tangible benefit in game to be true rewards.

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My feedback on this comes from about 1,050 hours and no candle held to those that have it all etc.

Having my Warframe achieve a level of sentience is a brilliant idea especially from seeing Umbra Excalibur! We do have spectres that use weapons so this is unfortunately not a reason to farm a cool idea, the effect should be permanent but even then our operators currently have no real capacity to have a need to not be commanding a puppet myself..

In saying that I am seeing a lot of slamming of the idea but I'm also thinking there is a reason for this with The Duviri Paradox coming and therefore probably has a currently unseen reason... however it should be permanent and their ability use should be freely used, suggestion for planned umbra frames is instead to have certain frames once awakened will cause a distortion with your connection. This distortion ejects our Tenno and as we are ejected then that frame is standing over us and kneels with us begging to be eased, we then go into a memory of that frame and it sets off a quest like Excal did... each one should be different but each one should be a different struggle from the tenno of the past who commanded it..

 

At least if anything just make it a permanent addition, so far without the possibility of a later use, this would be pretty lacking and just something that's a novelty at least once.. 

 

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At the point where the operator is now (in regards to fighting) I don't think having your warframe run around not using abilities is worth it. As many have said it's just a specter but worse. If we want something worth the grind, echoes of Umbra needs to have a significant boost and Operators need to be given a more worthwhile way of fighting.

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I realise Rebecca already commented so the central issue at hand is likely moot. However, the general idea behind it still bothers me. I've slept on it, and my opinion on the matter is still described in superlatives. If this is where Warframe is going, I'm out altogether. In fact, the one time when I damn near quit the game altogether was near the start, when I first realised that Kubrows required DNA stabilisers - expensive ones, too - in order to keep from degrading into uselessness and then dying. I eventually resolved this conflict by essentially sidelining my Kubrows up until DE reduced the cost of upkeep to such a point as to make it irrelevant.

If grinding for consumables is the future of Warframe, then I want no part of that future. I should have been alarmed when the Empyrean video suggested burning resources to power various ship abilities or repairing various ship systems, but the rest of the gameplay excited me enough to overlook it. Knowing what they're trying to do now has instantly sucked all the wind out of my sails in regards to that entire system. The last thing I want is to see Warframe turning into World of Tanks. Grind for currency to buy consumables so that you may occasionally get to play what you actually want, then go back to grinding for more consumables.

Yes, Warframe is a F2P game, I get that much. So far, however, it's managed to avoid most of the typical F2P traps. Focusing on consumables and rentals and upkeep is backsliding into the same reason I stopped playing F2P titles altogether. I'd much rather pay for my games and get an actually decent player experience than play for free and be constantly harassed with intrusive monetisation mechanics. Warframe was something of a breath of fresh air. Yes, the F2P aspects are intrusive and manipulative, but its fair pricing model means that I can treat it like a paid title and still have fun with it. A move to consumables is a move to "you can never pay enough to actually have fun," and that's where I draw the line.

Warframe was sold to me as a "fair" take on F2P. Jim Sterling wouldn't shut up about it for a while and the reviews were generally pretty positive. I've had a lot of fun with the game DESPITE the grind because there's a fun experience at the core of it. I'm now beginning to genuinely worry that DE themselves don't believe in the strengths of their own game. They don't believe Warframe can hold onto its player base without psychologically manipulative, petty chicanery worthy of your average no-name Chinese knockoff mobile title. Honestly, at this point I'm beginning to wonder if Warframe's monetisation model really is worth all the praise. Thanks to EA's Battlefront 2, the bar for good monetisation seems to have been brought so low that "doesn't have loot boxes" is the only real criterion. I am genuinely starting to wonder if the only difference between Battlefront 2, Black Ops 3, Destiny 2, et.al. and Warframe IS the loo boxes.

I talk about "customer good will" quite often. I'm a whale, I'm willing to eat quite a lot of expense and buy quite a bit of overpriced tat for a game I like. Even if this ends up being rolled back - AND IT SHOULD! - it's already cost me a lot of customer good will. And not just on its own, either. I was already pretty disgruntled over Nightwave, but hey! Season 2 is a major improvement. I figured I'd give DE the benefit of a doubt that they WEREN'T designing insidious manipulative coercive mechanics ON PURPOSE, and that I should give them a chance to improve the system season-after-season. Now I see this floated as a proposal, and it's making me rethink that benefit of a doubt, as well as making me retroactively angry at Nightwave all over again.

Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. I'm already starting to reconsider just how much trust I really should put in DE's "best intentions."

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While the idea of giving a warframe sentience seems great, is it really needed? Lets me just state things in an orderly manner.

First of all the "Echoes of Umbra" will turn your warframe into a spectre(which will have wall hacks). Just this, seems fun at first but.......In order for "Echoes" to be of any use in any situation, you would have to exit the frame and remain into the operator mode. Now here is where the problem is - "Operator Mode". Why would you use it in a mission to fight at all ?  Currently it is only being used to either restore energy or to get out of sticky situation using void mode by most of the player base. As soon as you are able to evade danger players jump into the warframe as soon as possible. Aside from this the operator mode is only used for Eidolon hunts which not majority of people play. Even in Eidolon hunts, while using the operator mode the warframe is pretty much of no use whatsoever. Warframes are only used for the vulnerability phases of the fight. The " Echoes of Umbra" purpose should be to ease the fight by providing assistance not to hinder the player. Yes being in Operator mode does hinder you by a huge margin. The reason being the exponential gap between abilities, weapons used by the warframe and operator. When you transfer out of your warframe the abilities downgrade hence slowing down the mission you are in. Another hindrance is focus. Players don't have all of the nodes unlocked so that the operator mode can be made sustainable.

Second why would you use "Echoes" if you can just get specter by doing Rescue mission. Spectres are able to use abilities, scale with enemy levels, don't hinder you in any way. On top of it they are of much use.

Third. I don't know the drop rates of it. But considering that it is a new item, i will consider it to be quite low maybe around 20%. Now the question would arise, is it worth? All that farming for something that just lets your warframe run behind you when you are in your operator form, only using the weapons equipped and even a spectre performs better than the Sentience-ed warframe.

I would say if the drop rates are going to be low then make the sentience permanent along with the warframe being able to use its abilities. Anything lower than this would be of no use. Also not all abilites of a warframe are good/you might not want the frame to cast(Like Excal's Javelin), if there is a UI where you can toogle the abilities, it would make a huge difference. People will just get it(only those who absolutely want everything in the game, those who have a riven even for a kraken.....the veterans),  others(who haven't acquired the item) will try to farm for it but when they find out it is nothing special, wouldn't bother and leave the farming.

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23 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

We're going to hold this back to act on weekend feedback and more - 2 days isn't enough time to inject all the changes we want to add, so we will release this at a later date in a different form. The reward will likely be replaced with a new 'Lua Lens' for earning Focus - details to come!

I have a suggestion:

  • The drop is applied to a warframe permanently and gives X seconds of activity that requires Y seconds of cooldown before it works again (Have the Warframe slump as it used to)
  • Each time you get a drop you can choose to apply it to a new warframe or reapply it to a motive warframe to reduce the cooldown and increase the active duration (with diminishing returns)

E.G. start with 5sec active and 20 sec inactive then 9/15, 12/11, 14/8, 15/6 or something

That way we have a good reason to keep going back but we also get something notable and perminant straight away. Also Keeps Umbra unique while giving us the option of having something similar, but not identical.

 

If you want to make a consumable how about this one:

Max once per mission, consuming one "charge" you can swap to one other defined loadout slot for the remainder of the mission, make it a "Centurions: Power Xtreme" moment where the new Warframe "beams" in, the Operator fades into it and the old one "beams" out. Not needed for general play but a fun thing and not something you'd ever need to have a stock of. Even scope for earning upgrades to do it more then once per mission.

But don't make us constantly work to maintain a status quo... that's icky.

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I would have loved the echos of umbra to be a warframe arcane rather than a one day consumable. Seems like a waste.

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Make the drop chance of these echoes lower if you feel the need to and let the echoes be a permanent toggleable option for any WF we apply it to. Add in that toggle option to Excalibur Umbra as well. Some comments I've seen have mentioned that certain focus school powers work better if the WF isn't moving around.

I'm guessing based on the fear of "exploits" this also means Excal Umbra has mods applied to his abilities (correct me if i'm wrong) when players are in operator mode. We already know mods aren't really applied to specters and that's why specters ability spamming isn't an issue. I have an idea to improve specters and the AI of sentient (not the faction) WFs...

Let mods be applied to WFs that use the specter programming, but test for these "exploits" first by perhaps letting this update roll out to specters first. I'm not sure if that's possible as I know specters scale with enemy level in regards to strength of damage/health bar. Anyway, test for those exploits and test out cooldown timers on the abilities you find to be at that problem level of "game breaking." I think it'll be better not to touch the specters imo (at least not right now), but these are just ideas. At least look into this for the Umbra Mode for WFs please.

Thank you for holding off on this update/item and listening to community feedback! :community:

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For me this addition is totaly unnecessary , aside that the sentient aspect of umbra was a cool ting that died pretty fast or almost instantly actualy  dosen't feel wort all that time spent for farming it even if it was permanent , it would attract peoples not too many actualy for a week or so then to be forgotten by the most , if not all , not someting i would personaly go activly searching in the first place and i think the most of peoples wouldn't too , the rewards has to be more consistent and usefull or just captivating  , someting that peoples would really like to farm or obtain for hours spent on distruption  or any timed gamed modes for that matter .

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Would love to have my Valkyr sentient in an Umbra-fashion, but as a 24 hours thing? Doesn't seem as good. If it's a permanent thing - great.
I know they said they are rethinking this, and plan to add another reward instead, but really - I hope they'll add the Umbral Echo or w/e it's called, as a permanent possible upgrade. Not as much for playable reasons as far as I'm concerned, but as a precious little thing for my most favorite Warframe. :satisfied:

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46 minutes ago, CrazyValkyr said:

Would love to have my Valkyr sentient in an Umbra-fashion, but as a 24 hours thing? Doesn't seem as good. If it's a permanent thing - great.
I know they said they are rethinking this, and plan to add another reward instead, but really - I hope they'll add the Umbral Echo or w/e it's called, as a permanent possible upgrade. Not as much for playable reasons as far as I'm concerned, but as a precious little thing for my most favorite Warframe. :satisfied:

Sounds like fine reasoning, I agree fullheartedly that a permanent upgrade with toggle if needed would be for the best.

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In my humble opinion:

1- It should be permanent. Some kind of upgrade or even a umbra reactor as someone pointed in another post;

2- You could make it something hard to achieve or time consuming, like tons of different mats acquired from different places but make it permanent;

3- It should act exactly as Excalibur Umbra.

 

I love the idea! It is WAY better than creating new Umbra frames.

While some ask "do we need this?" I ask "why not?" - DE always gave us things we don't actually "need" but we want it anyway.

It is a feature I have waited for, it is a feature I would invest my time. It's not always about what you "need", it's about what you want.

We don't "NEED" to play, we don't "NEED" to be here posting, we don't "NEED" lot of stuffs. So those are just opinions! ;D

Btw, I find a bit funny when someone talks like if he is talking for the whole community. lol

 

 

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