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Screamlord_Star

"Echoes of Umbra" feedback

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Simple question and sorry if it was asked before:

If the system is tied to the Helminth chair, what about warframes that are already cured/immunized? I really hated that purple thing on the neck of my frames so I immunized all of them after getting my charger, incluing Umbra.

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12 pages of comments basically with people liking the idea but hating it be temporary.  

 

DE will reduce time from 1 day to 1 hour....

 

 

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The primary issue with Echoes is that it directly overlaps with something we already have -the specters. Why on god's green earth would I ever spend the time to go around in a game mode to get something I can already do?

I agree that the new Disruption (and old disruption) could have a cool new reward (as well as the Infested game mode we get Nidus from, anyone remember that?), but please don't try to overlap it with what we already get. If you don't have anything in mind right now, put in some other reward in there ('rare resource caches', 'Kuva bundles', 'relics', 'ducats' are always good choices) until you find a new one.

The only thing I could say is; if possible, I'd like to see some more work put in the Operator as well. You said several DevStreams ago that, in time we'd be able to unlock more and more abilities, some even bound by the alignment of our Operator. Maybe we get a new piece of equipment for our Star Child -we already have an amp to attack, something to defend then? With its own 'skill tree' or upgrades.

Maybe Excalibur Umbra is just 'Umbra' and can function as a sort of docking platform for abilties that can be edited/altered via drops we get from this game mode (in simpler terms; we can either evolve our Excal Umbra to get alternate effects on his powers or become outright able to switch powers around a la the Railjack system). To expand on this idea (apologies, I write as it hits my brain, this isn't planned); there's two paths. In the interest of SOME kind of balance; implement an 'Energy' or 'Pool' system like with the Focus system so that it limits just how much OP-ness something has (slotting in something that gives invisibility should be EXTREMELY expensive while something that increases attack range would be much cheaper).

  • First path is the way of 'modifying' powers while they remain mostly static. His first being Slash Dash you could change it so it loses its tracking effect, but instead it knocks enemies down. Or it could grant him invisibility for 2 seconds. Or always proc a status. Or maybe it instead releases a wave so he doesn't put himself into the middle of a fray. Radial Javelin might instead pull enemies to you, pin them to the ground or toss them in the air, it might attack one enemy from several directions or it might turn into a gigantic chargeable javelin you can launch to pin some poor sod into a wall much like we do with bows now. Exalted Blade could lose its waves in exchange for, say, the ability to leap to enemies or always perform finishers -or it might remove the ability to move in exchange for lightning-fast, iaido-but-with-swordwaves strikes.
  • Second path is the way of 'switching powers'. There's a pool of powers, each with their tier, you can mix-and-match. Sort of a Zaw or Amp, but on a Warframe. I understand just how powerful this can become (an Excal that can go Invis at will and still use Exalted Blade?) but it would definitely serve the power fantasy.

This way you'd have 2 sustained forms; you'd not only need the blueprint for each ability/alteration (as they wouldn't be mods), but also the resources to build them.

Just, if you add anything that has to do with Focus gaining remember; a decent number of us old players have already maxed out our Focus trees and so will have literally ZERO reasons to go to this mode for this. Give another system that we can all sink our teeth into.

EDIT: In regards to my post and the whole 'turning Umbra into a platform we can mix-and-match abilities or edit them', it has a decent chunk of potential by later letting us turn OTHER frames into 'Umbras' as well. Sure, you're done with unlocking everything for Excalibur. Now do it again FOR EVERY FRAME! BWAHAHAHAHAH! Ahem, apologies. But the point stands; if the system is accepted and embraced, it could become expanded into other frames as well, becoming an 'Augment 2.0'. Augments remain as mods until the fateful day you can Umbra-fy a Warframe by 'awakening the slumbering spirit within, taking on its pain, making amends on its behalf, purifying its spirit...' and promptly turning that Frame's augments into 'slotted in mutations' you can mix and match. Some mutations/augments will be available via the Syndicates (duh) but others will be earnable/upgradeable via gameplay. I'd dig that.

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1500 odd hours in game under the belt.

Lore wise, this is a very bad idea. It is a betrayal of Umbra and the frames that will be injected with whatever stuff it is. I do not sell any frames given what we learned in Sacrifice. I refuse to trade people.
As a lore maniac i will not farm this, and refuse to accept it as cannon. Umbra is in specter mode because he was Vandalized, brutalised, mind raped to be who he is. Does DE really think it is ok to forcefully inject Umbra's memories?
DE is attempting to betray their frames as far as i am concerned.

From mechanical perspective, it is an interesting gimmick that would be interesting to see once, with the introduction of the warframe... but I have seen it already with Umbra...
The frame affected will have to use powers or it's like, meh.
The total duration of 1 day is very not worth it given the above.

My feedback is -5/10, would not farm myself and would not recommend DE to implement either.

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please dont do this. If it was mods then fine but no this is not mods. 

This is not an expatiation on umbral mods

This is not an expatiation on damage

not a slight increse on damage types

It feals like a out right waste of our time when you add a game mode with out real mods, items or tools so am i going to pump all my components in to a 24 hour ai that may be very bad

I am sorry but no please i mean yes i will do it once but i cant do this more than once.

also you are jest glorifying BAD specters

if i wanted to have my warframe flowing me and killing i would use a force specter boom Mesa prime UMBRAL

this is 100 time beater than wasting my time doing echos of umbral

this is not a upgrade or something to do it is a clear waste of time 

Sorry but this is how i feal

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I feel like this is a good idea I always wanted this since I got my hands on umbra because it is such a cool idea,
What I don't like about this tho is the fact that it will only last 24h.
There are so many warframes in this game why not make it so one mission allows you to change one warframe that way you would have to repeat the mission till you have the echoes for every warframe.

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Imagine this…

Instead of just applying the temporary ability for your Warframe to go into “umbra mode” when you are in Operator, imagine if applying an Echo of Umbra opened a menu like this…

oyLfRsy.jpg

This topic is mostly for fun, DE gonna do what DE gonna do, but here is my elevator pitch.

  • Costs one Echo of Umbra to get started, permanently unlocks “umbra mode” for your Warframe (with a toggle).
  • Nodes only affect your “umbra mode” Warframe
  • Unlock more nodes with more Echos of Umbra
    • Different nodes may have higher costs
  • Nodes unlock the ability for your “umbra mode” Warframe to use abilities
    • If an ability wouldn’t work at all for a specter, then the node wouldn’t exist.
  • Filler nodes would increase DR of your sentient Warframe, reduce ability cooldowns, attack range, etcetera.

Weirder idea

  • Capstone nodes at the end of branches that give a new effect.
  • For example…
    • Lifesteal (allows your “umbra mode” Warframe to heal itself up while you are in Operator).
    • Maybe lifesteal-link? Operator damage heals Warframe, Warframe damage heals Operator?
    • “Umbra mode” Warframe deals more damage to enemies inflicted with a Void status effect.

Dialing it up to 11

  • After unlocking an ability, a node further down that path would augment the ability to work with Operators. This may or may not carry over mods.
  • For example…
    • Blessing, Roar, etcetera works on Operators. Possibly using just base stats for the ability.

Dialing it up one more to 12

  • Have the ability augmentations always be active, not only be buffs to your “umbra mode” Warframe. So even when you are controlling your Warframe you can use the Operator synergies.

 

Note on Excalibur Umbra:

  • With a system like this Excalibur Umbra would be able to make use of Echos of Umbra. The main difference being that Excal Umbra would already have some of his nodes innately unlocked. Then, like every other Warframe, you could invest more Echos of Umbra to power him up.
  • If we ever do get more Umbra Warframes, this could be an interesting point of distinction between them and normal/Prime Warframes. They could even have slightly different trees with different unlocks/augmentations.

 

My thoughts…

In theory, this could be a system that could be expanded upon in the future. The initial release could just have the base ability unlocks and some of the stat buffs, then later DE could add more nodes. It could even just start in a rudimentary state where only the ability unlocks and base stat upgrades exist.

DE wanted to make an evergreen reward but having them arbitrarily expire is not a “fun” way to go about it. This concept would take a massive investment to maximize for just one Warframe, let alone your entire arsenal. Rather than having your work fade away after 24 hours, give more things to work for.

 

It is probably too late now for such a system to be implemented; this is basically a Focus 2.0 level rework (in terms of dev time). But it is fun to dream…

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No thanks, I don't want something that is essentially another focus school to grind... the current ones are bad enough

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10 minutes ago, LSG501 said:

No thanks, I don't want something that is essentially another focus school to grind... the current ones are bad enough

  1. I never once said anything about how you grind for this, yet the thing you complain about is that it is too grindy...
  2. I disagree on a more foundational level about the grind.

The Focus grind isn't bad because it is long, it is bad because it is tied to affinity and is only a reasonable grind when using two or three methods. Warframe needs a long tail end grind of stuff to work for, things that you unlock in two hours of grinding are also important for a healthy "content" flow, but there needs to be things to keep us playing in-between. Token rewards that are only useful once are why so many game modes are "dead". DE fearing making a grind is why people are complaining about having nothing to do. Also, I'm not sure what is innately wrong with "grinding". As long as the grind is fun and rewarding, why are you complaining about playing the game?

And again, it is a bit disingenuous to ignore literally everything I said and say that it won't work because it will be too grindy... despite me never mentioning grind.

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39 minutes ago, DrBorris said:

I never once said anything about how you grind for this, yet the thing you complain about is that it is too grindy...

What did you expect from an automated answer of someone that hates grind above anything else?

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33 minutes ago, DrBorris said:
  1. I never once said anything about how you grind for this, yet the thing you complain about is that it is too grindy...
  2. I disagree on a more foundational level about the grind.

The Focus grind isn't bad because it is long, it is bad because it is tied to affinity and is only a reasonable grind when using two or three methods. Warframe needs a long tail end grind of stuff to work for, things that you unlock in two hours of grinding are also important for a healthy "content" flow, but there needs to be things to keep us playing in-between. Token rewards that are only useful once are why so many game modes are "dead". DE fearing making a grind is why people are complaining about having nothing to do. Also, I'm not sure what is innately wrong with "grinding". As long as the grind is fun and rewarding, why are you complaining about playing the game?

And again, it is a bit disingenuous to ignore literally everything I said and say that it won't work because it will be too grindy... despite me never mentioning grind.

At first I was like the other person iffy by the thought of having another focus tree grind, but the more I read the more it became interesting. Def wouldn't mind something like this, but knowing DE, if they did implement a system like this it'd have an unreasonable amount of grinding. I personally really like your idea, but there's always the thought in the back of my mind wondering, "now how will DE turn this into a grind fest". It'd be interesting to see how they'd differentiate Umbral frames from normal/primed frames that have been upgraded with echoes.

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Why would they make a system where the game would essentially play itself?

1 hour ago, DrBorris said:

It is probably too late now for such a system to be implemented; this is basically a Focus 2.0 level rework. But it is fun to dream…

This has literally nothing to do with Focus.

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18 minutes ago, peterc3 said:

Why would they make a system where the game would essentially play itself?

Then don't balance it that way? Specters already exist if you want the game to play itself, sentient Warframes open up new gameplay opportunities for Operator gameplay. If DE balances this so you can let your Warframe play the game for you, that is a fault of the implementation and NOT the premise.

 

18 minutes ago, peterc3 said:

This has literally nothing to do with Focus.

I wasn't referencing Focus itself, but the amount of dev time it took for DE to develop Focus 2.0. Which I think we can all assume is a lot of time.

 

Edit: Just as an idea, because I would rather brainstorm solutions than just cry about problems, what if Umbra mode Warframes diminished in strength the longer they were out? So maybe after ten seconds your Warframe would start using fewer abilities, maybe their aim would be less consistent, etcetera. Then popping back into your Warframe would 'recharge' them back up to full power again.

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I really like that idea.This is a reason to farm echoes but too bad it will go down the drain with this community and Devs and give us some floofs instead.

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1 hour ago, DrBorris said:
  1. I never once said anything about how you grind for this, yet the thing you complain about is that it is too grindy...
  2. I disagree on a more foundational level about the grind.

The Focus grind isn't bad because it is long, it is bad because it is tied to affinity and is only a reasonable grind when using two or three methods. Warframe needs a long tail end grind of stuff to work for, things that you unlock in two hours of grinding are also important for a healthy "content" flow, but there needs to be things to keep us playing in-between. Token rewards that are only useful once are why so many game modes are "dead". DE fearing making a grind is why people are complaining about having nothing to do. Also, I'm not sure what is innately wrong with "grinding". As long as the grind is fun and rewarding, why are you complaining about playing the game?

And again, it is a bit disingenuous to ignore literally everything I said and say that it won't work because it will be too grindy... despite me never mentioning grind.

Considering you basically called it focus 2.0 that in itself implies there will be a grind to it....

We already know how DE are trying to 'fix' endgame rewards with the original idea of echoes of umbra, anything that's even remotely like the idea you're putting out (and it is basically a focus school) would just be turned into an excessively drawn out grind fest like the current focus schools are if you don't do the meta approaches to gaining focus.

 

Warframe doesn't need ANOTHER massively grindy element, it needs a replayable FUN element that also has a relevant reward to end gamers at an enemy level that actually gives players at least some challenge... doing a mission just to get points (or however else it's levelled) for what is essentially another focus school isn't fun in a lot of people's eyes. 

 

You're also assuming people want to use the operators as the main part of the game play... I didn't come to warframe to play as the operator, I came to play as the warframe, it's bad enough they're forcing the use of operators onto us by making enemies immune to warframes and normal weapons..

 

43 minutes ago, Uhkretor said:

What did you expect from an automated answer of someone that hates grind above anything else?

OH you know me so well.... actually you don't but hey don't let that stop you from making stupid assumptions. 

Actually my distaste is for unecessary and excessive grind... but clearly you'd never understand that distinction because you believe my response was automated...

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21 minutes ago, LSG501 said:

Actually my distaste is for unecessary and excessive grind...

... that describes what Warframe really is though...

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I like it, but then warframe would be EVEN MORE of a "war operator"... lol

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Gating an entire progression system behind one resource gained from one game mode on one planet on one mode is a non-starter. By all means, propose a new progression system but why did you choose to gate it behind the latest content bottleneck? Why not have it gated behind defeating Kayla de Thaym over and over again, or farming the Jordas Golem while you're at it?

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2 minutes ago, Steel_Rook said:

Gating an entire progression system behind one resource gained from one game mode on one planet on one mode is a non-starter. By all means, propose a new progression system but why did you choose to gate it behind the latest content bottleneck? Why not have it gated behind defeating Kayla de Thaym over and over again, or farming the Jordas Golem while you're at it?

Where did I say that the only place to get Echos of Umbra would be "on one planet on one mode". Like, I get it, I did not go into extreme detail about implementation, I did not talk about how/where you would grind, but did it cross your mind that isn't the point? When DE first proposed Echos of Umbra on Lua Disruption they phrased it as a test for the new reward, insinuating it would be rolled out to more places if it was a success (but it was such a huge failure that it never even got released, lol).

What if "Echos of Umbra" were Kuva-ish. So you could always farm Echos of Umbra on a variety of Lua nodes (at the very least Survival, Defense, Disruption, and Spy) and then maybe have "Sentient incursion" alerts pop up around the star chart to spice up that gameplay. Even if Echos of Umbra were exclusive to Lua, that could be quite the varied grind (as long as rewards were evenly distributed on all of the nodes).
 

Spoiler

 

I apologize for this rant, it is not all on you, Forums in general lately have been... difficult.

Have you thought of thinking? Yes, there are holes in what I propose, why are you making the active decision to fill those holes with the worst possible option? I don't mention grind, so the first response in this thread is "it is too grindy". I don't mention acquisition, so it is assumed that it will only exist on one node. Like... think man, think. What if, rather than assume that I am an idiot, give me the benefit of the doubt? Maybe if you see a hole in someone's proposal you could use some common sense and see that the whole can be filled with something that isn't bad? I have written thousands (and thousands and thousands) of words on this Forum, more is NOT better. For every word I write it is another opportunity for something to be taken out of context, so I just don't write those long well thought out posts anymore. You all have been here for long enough to see the ways of the Forum community, you all know that anything more than 200 words will be ignored by the majority of the Forum community, so when you see holes maybe you shouldn't immediately assume that the OP is dumb and did not think of something. Maybe have a bit of respect for your fellow human and assume that they left things out for brevity, not stupidity.

And maybe a part of someones suggestion is a bit off, maybe it is clear that they did not think of something, why is the first response to say "this entire idea is dumb because of this one problem". How about some constructive criticism? Rather than instantly dismiss something because it isn't perfect (spoiler: nothing is perfect), propose an alteration that could fix it. It helps no one to just shoot down an entire idea. Even ideas that are 95% S#&$ can have that 5% of good be polished into something great, but if you don't ever give anything a chance then you could be missing out on some of the greatest concepts.

/rant

 

 

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2 hours ago, Uhkretor said:

... that describes what Warframe really is though...

It might do now but it never used to be like that.  Yes there was grind but it was never excessive.

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Il y a 6 heures, DrBorris a dit :

DE wanted to make an evergreen reward but having them arbitrarily expire is not a “fun” way to go about it. This concept would take a massive investment to maximize for just one Warframe, let alone your entire arsenal. Rather than having your work fade away after 24 hours, give more things to work for.

Well the idea was to have a reward to farm "infinitely", I would say the problem was the reward itself not the "infinite" part... This is just a little gimmick from a warframe with a "reason" to have it.

I'm not really in favor of your system... The idea we could have our warframe at full power by our side while in operator would remove even more "active gameplay"... I'd rather push the buttons myself when I need skills to be cast than to relly on a clunky IA anyway...

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vor 6 Stunden schrieb DrBorris:

Imagine this…

Instead of just applying the temporary ability for your Warframe to go into “umbra mode” when you are in Operator, imagine if applying an Echo of Umbra opened a menu like this…

oyLfRsy.jpg

This topic is mostly for fun, DE gonna do what DE gonna do, but here is my elevator pitch.

  • Costs one Echo of Umbra to get started, permanently unlocks “umbra mode” for your Warframe (with a toggle).
  • Nodes only affect your “umbra mode” Warframe
  • Unlock more nodes with more Echos of Umbra
    • Different nodes may have higher costs
  • Nodes unlock the ability for your “umbra mode” Warframe to use abilities
    • If an ability wouldn’t work at all for a specter, then the node wouldn’t exist.
  • Filler nodes would increase DR of your sentient Warframe, reduce ability cooldowns, attack range, etcetera.

Weirder idea

  • Capstone nodes at the end of branches that give a new effect.
  • For example…
    • Lifesteal (allows your “umbra mode” Warframe to heal itself up while you are in Operator).
    • Maybe lifesteal-link? Operator damage heals Warframe, Warframe damage heals Operator?
    • “Umbra mode” Warframe deals more damage to enemies inflicted with a Void status effect.

Dialing it up to 11

  • After unlocking an ability, a node further down that path would augment the ability to work with Operators. This may or may not carry over mods.
  • For example…
    • Blessing, Roar, etcetera works on Operators. Possibly using just base stats for the ability.

Dialing it up one more to 12

  • Have the ability augmentations always be active, not only be buffs to your “umbra mode” Warframe. So even when you are controlling your Warframe you can use the Operator synergies.

 

Note on Excalibur Umbra:

  • With a system like this Excalibur Umbra would be able to make use of Echos of Umbra. The main difference being that Excal Umbra would already have some of his nodes innately unlocked. Then, like every other Warframe, you could invest more Echos of Umbra to power him up.
  • If we ever do get more Umbra Warframes, this could be an interesting point of distinction between them and normal/Prime Warframes. They could even have slightly different trees with different unlocks/augmentations.

 

My thoughts…

In theory, this could be a system that could be expanded upon in the future. The initial release could just have the base ability unlocks and some of the stat buffs, then later DE could add more nodes. It could even just start in a rudimentary state where only the ability unlocks and base stat upgrades exist.

DE wanted to make an evergreen reward but having them arbitrarily expire is not a “fun” way to go about it. This concept would take a massive investment to maximize for just one Warframe, let alone your entire arsenal. Rather than having your work fade away after 24 hours, give more things to work for.

 

It is probably too late now for such a system to be implemented; this is basically a Focus 2.0 level rework (in terms of dev time). But it is fun to dream…

nice idea. hope they might gonna take something like that into consideration 😎

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15 minutes ago, AkyFenrir said:

Well the idea was to have a reward to farm "infinitely", I would say the problem was the reward itself not the "infinite" part... This is just a little gimmick from a warframe with a "reason" to have it.

But it could be infinite in that DE could continue to add to it. Then again, they could have done that with Focus as well...

15 minutes ago, AkyFenrir said:

I'm not really in favor of your system... The idea we could have our warframe at full power by our side while in operator would remove even more "active gameplay"... I'd rather push the buttons myself when I need skills to be cast than to relly on a clunky IA anyway...

I pointed this out earlier, but the problem of "removing active gameplay" is a problem of how DE implements this, not in the core concept. It could be balanced in a way that necessitates your Operator's involvement for your Warframe to get anything done, maybe an "inspiration" system where you doing things with your Operator inspires your Warframe do do stuff. And I know that Operator gameplay is a taboo subject, but it is here to stay and I would rather see DE try to improve it than pretend it did not exist.

The other concept I pitched in a response above is to have the effectiveness of your Warframe diminish after ten seconds or so. This as a soft way to prevent people from just afk'ing in Operator.

Making sure that the game does not play itself is something that would have to be considered, but it is definitely something that could be balanced around.

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