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"Echoes of Umbra" feedback

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On 2019-08-23 at 12:21 PM, Klokwerkaos said:

definitely not permanent... what if i want to turn it off?  do i have to reforma a whole new prime vaulted set?

 

On 2019-08-23 at 10:34 AM, (XB1)SixGunLove said:

permanent option Meaning, that the Warframe you choose to install the echo in will be able to be "Umbralized" or "DeUmbralized" by visiting the chair.

The only thing permanent is the option to Umbralize/DeUmbralize a frame(s) of your choosing per echo crafted/installed. 

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So wait, the next "content" is simply yet another mindless grind with a gamemode peopple stopped caring about nearly instantly just to give a Warframe Umbra's passive?

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Not a great reward. If the echo was permanent maybe. in the future DE could add some item that will need the echo to build a upgraded version of it and make the warframe use abilitys too.

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I like this, I like this a lot. It keeps the use of the chair to turn on/off the Umbral form, so people can have it on, or off if they dont want there frame killing themselves in Eidolon hunts or something. 

As for my stance on it not being permanent...

2 hours ago, Jiminez_Burial said:

It should be permanent, otherwise why not just use specters?  You can have multiple loadouts, they will use abilities and don't require you to be in operator form.  Without the Umbral Echoes being proper upgrades then even fewer people will bother with it at all.  At least with permanence you get a significant period of activity when everyone is trying to get every Warframe upgraded and batches of activity whenever a new Warframe is released.  A day of having your Warframe turn into a lesser specter is not a reason to keep going back, it's a reason to never go there at all.

This, all of this, just, this. If it isn't permanent, with an absurdly low drop chance, and not using resources that are already in the game (that are just stock piling...more and more...please give me a reason to use my 3million alloy plates...) then I, and pretty much most people, will just not use it. Not sure the other guy in this thread trying to dispute people will read this, but if they do, we aren't trading constant engagement for some engagement, we are trading some engagement, with absolutely none at all.

Though, if we do want something like this, that can be farmed infinity, I have one concept that might work...even if it might just fall into the 'never farm for' category, but, worth a mention, I think.

Umbral Spector's (meaning sectors that scale off of your mods you use for the build, the new highest form of specter.) We are making copies of umbrals essence anyway, and from some person I read it seemed like they wanted to make more umbral frames, possibly, so why not, instead of making the umbral gimick just able to get shoved on everyone, make the copy get placed into a specter, and leave only the umbral frames being the ones that can run around when you get out of them. Keep the Umbral uniqueness, keep this little reward they're working with, make it maybe even worth farming for if they ever create content that needs spectors in the first place, just, I think it be pretty good way of doing this. But open to anyone taking this and disputing/running with it, just a thought on my end.

 

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I think it should be semi-permanent and easy not just to hoard but to apply. E.g., making Umbra 'mode' a one-time upgrade for each frame, then having a particular resource ('echoes' e.g.) in the disruption modes act as a slow-consumable fuel for those upgrades. As long as Umbra mode is active (activated via the chair), all Umbra-enabled frames get that feature and the amount of resources stockpiled diminishes without having to re-craft all the time. Could be done on a per-frame basis, if it's really desired.

Keeps the reason to go back into disruption modes, yet also removes the fuss with timing and crafting to make upkeep much more passive.

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The "Echoes of umbra" as were shown on devstream have a great potential, thing is that from a lore and personal perspective i think that copying someones memories and implanting into another bodies is just disrespectful for umbra(Dax soldier) and remove his uniqueness. the way that it is right now looks like a WuClone nerfed that only last 24 hours while to use you are being forced into operator mode.
i personally dont see myself going after this stuff the way that is presented right now, i could just use umbra instead or wukong and not even bother.

Now my sugestion is: 
1 - make into a thing that unlocks various fragments of the memories of other frames. (so that it can be made with lots of time one frame at a time with a rich lore) 
2 - maybe you can use that orokin codex from the sacrifice like a "book of memories" just for a menu to access that.
3- it dont need to be voice acted or anything like that, just a rich text for each frame would be good enough for the people that like lore.
4- if possible, it needs to be a permanent investment on your favorite warframe, so the cost need to be high enough for you to play more the disruption AND other less played missions too.
5- maybe adding secondarie objectives for unlocking the frames memories fragments, lets say you're looking into Limbo's fragments, so you'll need to do X or Y mission to complete X objective in order to trigger the frame memorie or to recover a item that was valuable to that person prior to become a frame. (and then adding that item into our orbiter decoration? maybe?)


well thats my idea in how to make this echoes thing better, but you do you DE...
wish you all a great weekend ❤️

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Little question :

Would it be more worth it, if the Operator get buff due to the installed "Echo of Umbra" (permanent buff on Excalibur Umburu for obvious reason) ?
1) there is a buff (let say "in mobility") due to the warframe Aura;
2)
there is an additional buff due to Umbral Mod equiped (linked Armor & Vitality ; additional Void-energy with Umbral Intensity / additional Crit-chance - damages with due to Umbral Melee mods).
+ maybe a refresh on Void damages, to make it without buff/debuff against all kind of health-armor-shield.

With that; even if the Echoes are temporary, it will allow you to buff your operators when other kind of Warframe are being used (plus, it is still a specter which use YOUR loadout & in the future use the abilities).

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Oh, another filler to take away a rotation reward... It's basically a 35 endo reward without endo.

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I think you should all take a look at general discussion about echoes of umbra. People are very unhappy with endless grind for a bs specter.

The specter ai in this game is literally garbage right now...

This reward is not a solution to increase playtime in disruption.

 

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Thinking... this is really really not a good idea to implement for a reward.

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Not to dogpile the topic, but "temporary" bonuses have never been worthwhile to me either - especially in warframe. There isn't a raid or hard content that I'm like "Oh geez, I need to bust out my trump card!"

Just make it permanent. Filling endless tables with garbage is NOT cool.

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While the idea of Echo Specter AI (minus abilities)  is a nice idea for a drop in Disruption, it has multiple issues that only seem to leave distaste.  I'd like to share my thoughts on how to mend or fix potential issues discussed below.

  1.  Indirect Umbra Nerf:
    • The idea is nice cute side upgrade to have sometimes, but it makes Excalibur Umbra's ability notably less unique (not that I use him really, but it does feel like he's being thrown under the bus with this).
      • If DE wanted to reduce this problem, maybe giving Excalibur Umbra specifically an enhancement upon the AI's performance to act differently in combat. it is a memory from Umbra after all; it's not the most pleasant memories. Maybe his movement and attack speed are increased tremendously to keep up not only with you, but to hunt down any target they lock onto with morbid ambition. Angry boy goes Super Sayan 3 basically. He also gets a much longer scarf
  2. Temporary Usage:
    • 24 hours. That's pretty gross. This might not sound bad on paper if the drops are decent, but to go out of the way to craft each specter is already gonna be another 8 hours or so too. It's a wait gate nobody will appreciate for something that lasts about 3 times than the current specter craft time, assuming it'll have a similar 8hr or more craft time like regular specters.
      • Lengthening the time would be the obvious start to something better. Maybe I dunno make it 3 days to a week?
      • Making it permanent would conflict with number 1's dilemma above (w/out any Excal tweaks), but at least your grind actually mean't something in the end that's secure for whatever frame you choose.It would also reinforce the worth if it is in fact a rare drop in general, considering you need the 2 pieces to make it in the first place.
      • A nice touch would be to extract the memory and preserve any time left instead of just losing it straight up...like w h y. This would give some flexibility in pausing and transferring the memory to other frames. In addition, crafting multiple Echos can be additive like other boosters so you don't lose your previous leftovers while adding more time.
  3.  Acquirement:
    • 2 different locations; 2 different parts.
      • Depends really on what else are the drops are in these areas really, but I'd rather see a separate pool from the normal drops in each location. Maybe DE should apply the drop to whoever the  Demolist is on each tile- with an acceptable drop chance for each piece respectfully of course. That way, you'd have ~4 chances per rotation at least.

I appreciate DE putting something somewhat interesting to acquire in the Disruption gamemode, but some tweaks would be much appreciated before it comes to fruition.

At least all frames can say hi anytime to spooky chair now👌

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Like many others, I was also dessapointed by this reward. . . in a way, on paper, it sounds good. And the fact it's timed could be a good way to keep on farming this type of mission. But once put to practice ? Excal Umbra does better. Wukong's clone does better. Equinox 1st augment does better. . . and yes : even specters. Does. Better. And it's not just the reward that saddens me the most : it's the way it's introduce, The helminth. Arrived since the quest of Glast's gamble ; activated with Nidus once completed ; teased through audiolog of Ballas. . . and this is what he have, after all this time. . . You know what we could have with, an infested chair that once was able to technically create warframes ?

 

Just to throw wild ideas with little to no thinking, just looking at the nature of the artifact :

Adding passive and abilities, chosen amongts a important variety : Reviving pet or sentinels instently ; turning ennemies into friendly / wild infested via a spore projectile or AoE cast ; generating a viral / corrosive proc on a certain radius...

Upgrading certain statistics of the frames : Regenerative health, running faster, jumping higher, adding / bringing back parkour options ( wall run ), stayin' longer on a wall...

Adding ""mutations"" : We curently have people turning themselves into ubber infested, the Emissaries, with their big giant armed blade... now ,I know it's just a single glorified Tonfa. however, this could be somethin' to digg in... sacrificing an arm, legs, health, shield, armor, why not even having  specific maluses ( less resistant to fire damages, reloading slowlier )... to gain some infested mutations. Personally, I think about two games specifically : [Prototype] and Soul Sacrifice.

As for the Umbra part : More than giving the ability to move, making one of the four powers of a frame able to hurt / stun Sentients and getting rid of their immunity !

 

This is simple brainstorming, and no : I don't question the balance between one option with another when I write all of this... This chair, able to speak and most likely think, is able to modify the flesh of a mere human to turn him into a killing monster of steel. We could literally have a skill tree for warframes ! But at the opposite of the tennos, bound by their five schools, it could be all around the deep nature of the frames... the infested side. A tree that we could change at will and personnalyse as we wish, finding a balance between such maluses for such bonuses, requireing such amount of "Echoes" to uncover new mutations as the helminth grows stronger, and used to finalyse the helminth's operation once we have the build we want.

All that to say : I honestly, expect more than a "slightly less worse specter" reward for end game missions. Ephemera were "meh"... aura formas were pretty much useless... this is, as it is right now, a simple, and complete waste. of time, ressources, energy, and interest.

 

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You should change "feedback" into "suggestion" in the title no ?


By the way , did the feature mean we'll never get others umbra frame ? like frost umbra for example ?

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il y a 13 minutes, Dr_Shadox a dit :

By the way , did the feature mean we'll never get others umbra frame ? like frost umbra for example ?

 

Honestly, i'm not that sure DE intend to add more Umbra frames... It hurst me a lot to think about it, but I don't think they have any interrest to produce more frames of such type ( even if sold like prime access : it would be very borderline in a commercial aspect, since it's basically a reskin with a minor change... at least, from what we can see between excal, prime, and Umbra ).

Plus, technically speaking, Umbra is different, in some regard. As would say Hunhow : "no feel, no sense, no life". The frames are brainless. Unconcious of what's happening. But Umbra : he's not a frame born from a human, it's an human turned in a frame. Ballas left him whith all that he ever was, a soldier betrayed by his own kind, turned into a monster, forced to kill his son... and locked away for decades and decades on Lua. It would make sence that he's the only one of his kind : it was a curse.

Now : I would KILL ! . . . .Vay hek. to have the chance to find more Umbra frames, with proper memories and Lore, in some regards, just like the prime trailers. But right now, i don't think it's in their objectives. 

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46 minutes ago, DiceyDelphic said:

 Indirect Umbra Nerf:

This a nerf so indirect as to not be connected whatsoever to Umbra's ability to do what it currently does.

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As long as the drop chance are decent and not ridiculous (looking at you ESO drop table), I see no problem this being a temporary boost. 

I do have concerns that this item will make Excal Umbra irrelevant, they should buff his AI like making him more aggressive so this item does not overshadow him before this item is released.

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No amount of fixes can fix this “reward”. It’s just not a practical gameplay application. It’s like Revenant. No amount of synergies are going to fix the underlying problem of his abilities at their base are terrible.

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5 hours ago, Neovrall said:

Not a great reward. If the echo was permanent maybe. in the future DE could add some item that will need the echo to build a upgraded version of it and make the warframe use abilitys too.

Even being permanent it’s still not worth farming for. Operator + Warframe that only uses weapons < You just playing the Warframe.

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Come on people this is getting rediculous.Who in their right mind would play disruption just for this?These are the Umbra frames we were promised?Umbra now means sentient?Not to mention that from a lore stand point ejecting the memories of a tortured being tinto another one for the sake of an idiotic reward is terrible.And the helminth chair?These are the plans to make a better use of it that they had mentioned?

In conclusion the whole concept is lazy, brainless and insulting, the end.

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The inherent issue IMO is..... So you have a worse Specter, given the lack of abilities. You have, potentially, a regular Specter, with abilities. And then you have you and your ACTUAL gameplay, as your operator, standing around like a mook and doing very little, just zapping a few things occasionally and watching your Specters either do all the work, or be absolutely useless, depending on the content.

DE seems to have worked very hard on removing AFK gameplay, and yet as far as I can see, staying hidden and in void mode is going to be the best/only realistic use for this. Find a good spot for your Survival, or the Defense point. Pop a Specter. Go into Operator mode. Just don't die as your double Specters go as long as they can, extract, repeat.

Can we buff Ember so she's allowed to do this easily again, if that's what we're going for?

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Should be just a permanent enhancement like Exilus Adaptor, another rare item to collect to boost your WF capabilities. They are not making more Umbra frames, let's be realistic, there won't be Umbra Volt or Embra Mag. It should be just an unlockable function on your equipment.

From a lore / progression standpoint those Disruption missions where Echo's drop should just unlock after Sacrifice, so Umbra is your first experience with "autoframe".

I will not use that 24-hour consumable once. I have over 4k hours logged but I only play in 1-2 hour chunks and it would take longer for me to farm that thing than the use I would get out of it.

I would, however, grind the crap out Disruption for permanent "Auto" upgrade on all frames I have.

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To state what I said previously in a more clear manner, I see this move as DE responding to the following:

"We want more umbra warframes" -> DE: Ok we let you inject umbra's mind to other frames

"We hate AFK to win! Current Excal Umbra lets people do that. Bad!" -> DE: Ok we only let the effect be temporary, and we won't improve friendly AI any further cos when they too smart, they replace playing the game. And we will consider not letting you earn affinity from the umbra kills if people use this feature too much

"New modes have no reason to be replayed after we get their good reward (e.g. warframe parts, ephemera)" -> DE: Ok, making the item temporary fits this criterion too. 

 

 

 

And I will dare extend this to their new warframe design philosophy.

Devstream previews new frame with strong powers 

"No, that looks abusable! AFK to win incoming! Oh great another Saryn!" -> DE: Ok we adjust. Done! Here's another Nyx / Rhino reskin!!

"New frame mediocre. Please rework and improve" -> DE: What's that? Can't hear you. We're busy moving on to the next new thing.

In trying to please all sides they somehow displeased everyone.

 

🤷‍♂️ Who's to blame? Maybe everyone. Half the community wants the game to be more difficult. Half of it wants it to stay easy or get easier. Some care only about fashion. Some only care for their one main warframe and loadout and all else be nerfed for their main's sake. Some want everything buffed. Some think redesigning eveything to be equally viable is good design philosophy (40 + rhino reskins, hahahaha). Some think different frames have different purpose. Some want endgame. Some want more powerful and good meaningful rewards through endgame modes. Some hate more powerful rewards cos power creep. :clem:

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Hum...if i need a frost with me , i can just spend a *specter , and i stay tanky since i'm still in my frame instead of the kid.

(and specter use ability)

Infact from far it's like an alpha version of specter system , but i must admit i didnt realy investigate on that , maybe when we'll have explanation in other language.

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