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Ergonomics Issue With Semi-Auto Weapons


moofy
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I've been playing the game for a 300 hours, and I am enjoying it.  However, I want to talk about something that's been bugging me.

 

I think fast-firing semi-automatic weapons are too much trouble to use.  For instance, to get max dps out of akbolto (which fires at a base of 10 rounds a second) one thing you might try is to add both lethal torrent (+60% fire rate) and gunslinger (+72% fire rate) - add all that up and you have 10 * (1 + .6 + .72) = 23.2 rounds per second - faster than grakata's base speed.

 

I feel clicking the mouse 23 times a second to get peak dps is a repetitive stress injury waiting to happen.  It might be a balance issue, but there are workarounds such as binding fire to the scroll wheel or using autohotkey which are generally accepted by the community.  However, I feel some option should be built into the game to make these weapons easier to use.

 

I have some suggestions about how to make this work mechanically:

 

1. Add an option to the weapon upgrade screen to change the firing mode for certian weapons (or for any weapon above a certian fire rate)

 

2. Add a set of mods that change the firing trigger, have it cost zero mod levels to equip (losing a mod slot is bad enough) Alternatively, it could have a cost and have some other effect, but I'm not really sure what secondary effect you could have and mantain balance.

 

3. Add a set of mods that allow you to increase damage and reduce firing speed such that the total dps is the same to retain the semi-auto feel of these weapons without having to jazzercize your fingers to death.  If balancing ammo efficiency is a problem with this (because such a mod would improve it too much) then make shooting take more than one shot or reduce the dps accordingly.

 

I don't really think any of these options would change the balance of the game, but they would make these weapons more fun to use.

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These guns are semi-auto for a reason. They're pretty powerful.

Why do you need Sobek, when you can get full-auto Strun? Why do you need Braton, if you'll get full-auto Burston?

It's up to you to chose - convinience or damage.

Semi-auto should stay semi-auto, and full-auto should stay full-auto.

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Burston and strun do not require you to click 23 times a second to achieve their dps potential.  They are also poor choices for fully auto play because they tend to kill enemies in one or two shots.  I am more interested in weapons like aklato and akbolto in this discussion.

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AkBolto is a unique weapon to this situation, unlike people with the 'it is because it is' attitude. 

 

Akbolto literally cannot be fired at it's statistical fire rate without a Macro(even with a macro you may have trouble reaching the max ROF). even using your Scroll wheel isn't fast enough. i personally can click a mouse about 7 times a second if i get really set for it and try to go as fast as possible. real world situations won't be that. i need to move my mouse too, not just flinch up and down :p

this is peculiar. it's pretty much a unique issue, and shooting super fast is kind've AkBoltos' main feature. but it can't achieve it. 

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Burston and strun do not require you to click 23 times a second to achieve their dps potential.  They are also poor choices for fully auto play because they tend to kill enemies in one or two shots.  I am more interested in weapons like aklato and akbolto in this discussion.

Lato is a piece of crap. Let's face it. It's mor like a training pistol, that they are giving to us only because they are made of cardboard and are cheap to make, ant it's not advised to let us fight Grinner with bare hands. Same cardboard weapons are Skana and MK-1 Braton.

Lato is your first pistol. It's like a first pistol in every other game - low damage, small fire rate, semi auto. Because it's a weapon, that you will want to cange as soon as possible.

 

So, Bolto... It's pretty much an upgraded Lato, since it requires one to craft (at least it used to). More damage, Physical Impact, but the mechanism is the same - semi auto. Same as Aklato and Akbolto.

 

It's perfectly logical and lore-friendly to me.

 

Full Auto Acrid? Seer? Lex? Vasto? that would be a bit gamebreaking.

 

Like someone said before, they're called semi-auto for a damn reason. And they are semi-auto for a damn reson.

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Playing cookie clicker.

 

Actually clicking the cookie.

 

Do you even know what you're doing? Even with my autoclick macro, I can't click the cookie fast enough to increase my ~300 billion CPS appreciably.

Edited by 00zau
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Lato is a piece of crap. Let's face it. It's mor like a training pistol, that they are giving to us only because they are made of cardboard and are cheap to make, ant it's not advised to let us fight Grinner with bare hands. Same cardboard weapons are Skana and MK-1 Braton.

Lato is your first pistol. It's like a first pistol in every other game - low damage, small fire rate, semi auto. Because it's a weapon, that you will want to cange as soon as possible.

 

So, Bolto... It's pretty much an upgraded Lato, since it requires one to craft (at least it used to). More damage, Physical Impact, but the mechanism is the same - semi auto. Same as Aklato and Akbolto.

 

It's perfectly logical and lore-friendly to me.

 

Full Auto Acrid? Seer? Lex? Vasto? that would be a bit gamebreaking.

 

Like someone said before, they're called semi-auto for a damn reason. And they are semi-auto for a damn reson.

 

I can't tell if you're trolling.  Would you seriously consider a lex or seer with automatic trigger gamebreaking?  Are you suggesting people using the mousewheel to autofire are effectively using an exploit?

Edited by moofy
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Honestly, this is one of the reasons I eventually had to switch back to the mouse and keyboard after playing the game for almost half a year using my xbox controller: Scroll-firing semi-automatics is just a LOT LESS painful than rapid clicking the right trigger.

 

And that is taking into consideration that, personally, clicking on the controller trigger is a lot less stressful than a mouse thanks to all those years playing Halo.

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Why would you want to make a semi-auto weapon fire so fast anyway? If you want to add DPS, why not just use damage mods?

I mean, really, are you that inaccurate that you have to spray with the gun? You might as well equip a Boltor then...

Edited by dukarriope
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The biggest problem with semi-autos is that they will NEVER reach their full DPS unless you are running at 60 FPS to be safe. So it is not just an ergonomics issue, it is also an engine issue.

 

A laggy game with 25 FPS will have a unmodded akbolto doing like half the DPS of a unmodded twin gremlin which has full auto fire. So this is a serious issue. But DE is at wits end to fix such an engine issue.

 

So hence it has being suggested before to make all guns full auto, but tone down their ROF a little. So you won't have AKBoltos firing as fast as a Braton. Of course slow guns like Latron, Lex, Seer etc don't get that ROF nerf.

Edited by fatpig84
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 Where'd you get the idea that it would be an exploit? 

 

I got the idea from where you suggested a fullauto lex (by which I assume you mean with a lex with an automatic trigger) to be gamebreaking.  First off I'm not suggesting that fire rate should be increased at all.  Second, I was not discussing weapons below a certian fire rate (which includes lex.)

 

The mousewheel trick allows these weapons to be fired similarly to how they would if they an automatic trigger, as does using macros - and it does not break the game, as the dps of these weapons are balanced against their maximum fire rate.

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Why would you want to make a semi-auto weapon fire so fast anyway? If you want to add DPS, why not just use damage mods?

I mean, really, are you that inaccurate that you have to spray with the gun? You might as well equip a Bolto then...

 

Adding fire rate multiplies DPS.  Once your damage mods are high enough, multiplying DPS becomes the most effective way to increase DPS.  If you'd like, I can demonstrate mathematically why this is the case.

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I still don't see the point of having a mode-selector of some kind for weapons that are expressly semi-automatic. Most real firearms require extensive modification to be converted to automatic, and those that do usually have uncontrollable recoil.

 

Of course fire rate would effectively multiply your damage output, but again, what's the point if you acknowledge you can't pull the trigger quick enough? It's the whole point of semi-automatic weapons to not be able to have ridiculous DPS - they're meant more for single, hard hits. You don't see a full-auto sniper rifle now, do you?

 

I don't need, or want a full auto mode on my Latron even if I put full Speed Trigger and Shred on it. It ruins the whole point of using a semi-automatic weapon. If I'm using a gun like that, it usually means I want to take one good shot. I use the Dual Vasto, too, and I don't feel any desire to buff its fire rate. I can pretty much click fast enough to end up 'queuing' shots though.

 

 

If you really want to use a semi-auto weapon then you have to live with its disadvantages. Adding more dilution to the pool with a trigger mod or a combined fire rate reduction + damage up mod just doesn't strike me as a good idea at this point.

Edited by dukarriope
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semi is pretty useless because its so easy to circumvent. Any mid tier gaming mouse has rapid fire. Autohotkey takes 10 minutes to install find the script script and run. Not adding it in as a option setting at this point is accomplishes nothing. 

 

 

My 50 dollar mouse comes with an autofire button. Took me 3 minutes to program. Every semi is now automatic. 

Edited by ForumSmurf
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AkBolto is a unique weapon to this situation, unlike people with the 'it is because it is' attitude. 

 

Akbolto literally cannot be fired at it's statistical fire rate without a Macro(even with a macro you may have trouble reaching the max ROF). even using your Scroll wheel isn't fast enough. i personally can click a mouse about 7 times a second if i get really set for it and try to go as fast as possible. real world situations won't be that. i need to move my mouse too, not just flinch up and down :p

this is peculiar. it's pretty much a unique issue, and shooting super fast is kind've AkBoltos' main feature. but it can't achieve it. 

lmfao this post made my day

 

other than the fire rate being affected by fps, there's nothing wrong with semi-autos in this game. the firecap of every semi auto in this game can easily be reached by clicking, aside from akbolto/dual vasto with maxed gunslinger and lethal torrent

Edited by rCaliberGX
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I got the idea from where you suggested a fullauto lex (by which I assume you mean with a lex with an automatic trigger) to be gamebreaking.  First off I'm not suggesting that fire rate should be increased at all.  Second, I was not discussing weapons below a certian fire rate (which includes lex.)

 

The mousewheel trick allows these weapons to be fired similarly to how they would if they an automatic trigger, as does using macros - and it does not break the game, as the dps of these weapons are balanced against their maximum fire rate.

 I never even posted suggesting a full auto lex..

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semi is pretty useless because its so easy to circumvent. Any mid tier gaming mouse has rapid fire. Autohotkey takes 10 minutes to install find the script script and run. Not adding it in as a option setting at this point is accomplishes nothing. 

 

 

My 50 dollar mouse comes with an autofire button. Took me 3 minutes to program. Every semi is now automatic. 

 

Yes, cheating is easy, but that doesn't mean I'm going to do it.

 

 

other than the fire rate being affected by fps, there's nothing wrong with semi-autos in this game. the firecap of every semi auto in this game can easily be reached by clicking, aside from akbolto/dual vasto with maxed gunslinger and lethal torrent

 

Which is why I leave pure RoF mods off such weapons.

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