Maybe is time to update the game?

[DeathDweller]

Just now, kuciol said:

Thats what it means you know. You have no way of knowing if its majority either so lets agree to speak only for ourselves from this point onwards. 

I disagree but i don't want to overanalyze it cause we already sidetracked from the original topic.

[Loza03]

36 minutes ago, 844448 said:

And how do you define the intrinsic rewards? I see the ability to kill enemies with one shot and able to tank huge amount of hits and not dying as my reward for my effort from putting potato and forma into it but do the others see like I do?

Playing the game is the intrinsic reward. Which, obviously, we don't do now when we automate or trivialise most of it.

Potatoes and forma are extrinsic rewards as well. Even though there's gameplay attached to it, acquiring and using them isn't itself gameplay. Adding a potato or some forma doesn't produce some brand new way to play in the majority of instances, it just makes what you have stronger. That's pretty much extrinsic reward 101.

Besides, who says balance means you can't be super powerful? If the ability to do this is achieved through fun and interesting gameplay, then cool, that's fine. DE can even make fun boss fights or quest set pieces where they withhold or enable that gameplay naturally as needed (as opposed to just... nullifiers or immunity). But right now we have Lazy Tank Inaros, press-4-to-win Banshee, Octavia (just... most of Octavia) and the Ignis Wraith, items that give big output for the most minimal input.

Breath of the Wild's a pretty excellent example of a game that makes you really powerful in endgame but doesn't automate it, even if it is one highly disconnected from Warframe in a large number of ways. You're not able to trivialise the game at all though - enemies can still give you a run for your money if you switch your brain off entirely, and you do still need to put a degree of effort in to reap the rewards. But the sheer number of options available to the player to deal with issues is massive once you have the resources of the endgame. Camps of enemies that were one a major concern in the early game become this fun experience of 'how to smash this one up best'. Because, sure, you could go in sword blazing but you can still get surrounded, and enemies don't do trivial damage, especially the silver ones. But you have dozens of options to deal with them - stealth, Magnesis-ing nearby metal crates to smack them around or drop on them, their own bomb barrel hazards combined with your bomb arrows, to the point that if you play your cards right, Warframe-levels of destruction are very much possible. But only if you play your cards right. It's very possible for said destruction to be impossible due to your equipment at that moment or if the situation doesn't allow it, or simply messing up the process - possibly even being in the blast radius.

Obviously BotW is far, far from where Warframe is or ever should be save from some choice cuts or sweeping elements, but it's a good exemplar piece. It doesn't just hand you unstoppable power when it gives you Lynel equipment for beating one or for beating the dungeons. It gives you the ability to have that power from your own skill at the game. That's definitely something Warframe sorely needs.

[kuciol]

13 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

Obviously BotW is far, far from where Warframe is or ever should be save from some choice cuts or sweeping elements, but it's a good exemplar piece. It doesn't just hand you unstoppable power when it gives you Lynel equipment for beating one or for beating the dungeons. It gives you the ability to have that power from your own skill at the game. That's definitely something Warframe sorely needs.

And thats where you are wrong. Warframe is a game where the main point is being OP from the get go while BoTW is game where you try to become like that. BoTW is story driven RPG while Warframe is mainly collecting game despite what you think it should be. Everything in Warframe is tied to just collecting stuff, thats the main goal, you dont see it only because you dont want to. I have multiple times said that Warframe is more comparable to TCG's more then any other genre. First you collect somehow working deck (like Rhino + hek), then you collect more advanced stuff to experiment (other frames and weapons) and then you try to get the fancy stuff (primes and rivens) and once done you wait for new expansion. 

Edited August 24, 2019 by kuciol

[Loza03]

7 minutes ago, kuciol said:

And thats where you are wrong. Warframe is a game where the main point is being OP from the get go while BoTW is game where you try to become like that. BoTW is story driven RPG while Warframe is mainly collecting game despite what you think it should be. Everything in Warframe is tied to just collecting stuff, thats the main goal, you dont see it only because you dont want to. I have multiple times said that Warframe is more comparable to TCG's more then any other genre. First you collect somehow working deck (like Rhino + hek), then you collect more advanced stuff to experiment (other frames and weapons) and then you try to get the fancy stuff (primes and rivens) and once done you wait for new expansion. 

1: No, that's very wrong. You start off with basically nothing. The whole point is to build yourself up. Seriously, go watch a playthrough Vor's Prize or the War Within which does basically the same thing but for the Operator. You start out weak, helpless and grow stronger until you face down a bad guy. The Sacrifice does this too - you start out not strong enough, go get Umbra who makes you strong enough to face down Ballas - it's a common story structure.

2: And I've pointed out last time you tried that on me that TCG's are, as the name implies, games. The actual gameplay itself has to be engaging, otherwise what's the point of collecting everything? Might as well go collect rocks since that offers vastly more content. And that's the crux of my whole point - intrinsic rewards are more important than extrinsic ones. The stuff you collect must be engaging in and of itself to use. Pushing a button to win isn't interesting, unless the process to get there is interesting. To point out a TCG - Exodia. Getting Exodia is a process, one that could put you at a disadvantage beforehand (since if you can't get it in one turn you have several much weaker cards), requiring forethought to achieve. But the payout is obviously worth it. In other words, it's an interesting mechanic. It's a game.

[Ephemiel]

7 hours ago, kuciol said:

Thats a lie, i asked for examples and got 0. 

Every single game out there has it. 

No. You are the problem, you play CASUAL game and complain that its not hardcore. 

I can't recall you ever asking for examples.

NO GAME this famous has content droughts of nearly a year.

No, i'm not the problem. The problem is people like YOU who are so happy by being given nothing and wanting everything in a silver platter to the point where any difficult content is frowned upon. People like YOU who are so willing to wait OVER A YEAR for actual content.

[Ephemiel]

2 hours ago, NightmareT12 said:

On the other end, they take a lot of time to prepare TennoCon and that means that content is less frequent

Then stop doing TennoCon, this isn't Activision Blizzard that has the resources to do a big con and not have any issues, this is DE who is infamous in recent years for delaying everything and, even when it finally comes, the releases are buggy.

[kuciol]

1 minute ago, Loza03 said:

1: No, that's very wrong. You start off with basically nothing. The whole point is to build yourself up. Seriously, go watch a playthrough Vor's Prize or the War Within which does basically the same thing but for the Operator. You start out weak, helpless and grow stronger until you face down a bad guy. The Sacrifice does this too - you start out not strong enough, go get Umbra who makes you strong enough to face down Ballas - it's a common story structure.

Not in this game. You are even lore wise this unstoppable war machine. You dont need Umbra to face Ballas, you could do that on your own. You look for him to find Lotus. 

 

4 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

2: And I've pointed out last time you tried that on me that TCG's are, as the name implies, games. The actual gameplay itself has to be engaging, otherwise what's the point of collecting everything? Might as well go collect rocks since that offers vastly more content. And that's the crux of my whole point - intrinsic rewards are more important than extrinsic ones. The stuff you collect must be engaging in and of itself to use. Pushing a button to win isn't interesting, unless the process to get there is interesting. To point out a TCG - Exodia. Getting Exodia is a process, one that could put you at a disadvantage beforehand (since if you can't get it in one turn you have several much weaker cards), requiring forethought to achieve. But the payout is obviously worth it. In other words, it's an interesting mechanic. It's a game.

But it is enjoyable and engaging, you are just past that point where it mattered. Seriously how long do you think you should be engaged? 3-5 years is not enough? Dont be silly.

[Ephemiel]

2 hours ago, Midas said:

This thread is still going, with the majority of people against this one guy lul. He emits negativity.

Best part is that most of what he says against anyone applies instead to him.

[kuciol]

4 minutes ago, Ephemiel said:

I can't recall you ever asking for examples.

NO GAME this famous has content droughts of nearly a year.

No, i'm not the problem. The problem is people like YOU who are so happy by being given nothing and wanting everything in a silver platter to the point where any difficult content is frowned upon. People like YOU who are so willing to wait OVER A YEAR for actual content.

Reread the topic then because i clearly asked for examples. Even now you didnt provide any.All of famous games have longer content droughts. WoW 2-2,5 years for new expansion and they had 8 months with absolutely nothing, FF over a year, GW2 had 2 expansion packs so far and so on. There was a lot of content in this 1 year, i dont care that you didnt like it or you want something else. Content is what it is and not what you want it to be.

[kuciol]

2 minutes ago, Ephemiel said:

Best part is that most of what he says against anyone applies instead to him.

Provide 1 single example of live service game that is on market over 5 years and dont have complains like Warframe, i will verify. Until then i will consider you a troll.

[Ephemiel]

Just now, kuciol said:

Provide 1 single example of live service game that is on market over 5 years and dont have complains like Warframe, i will verify. Until then i will consider you a troll.

Nice strawman there mate, asking me to provide a game with no complains as if that's what ANYONE here is saying.

Thank you though for confirming the troll is you.

[Ephemiel]

3 minutes ago, kuciol said:

Reread the topic then because i clearly asked for examples. Even now you didnt provide any.All of famous games have longer content droughts. WoW 2-2,5 years for new expansion and they had 8 months with absolutely nothing, FF over a year, GW2 had 2 expansion packs so far and so on. There was a lot of content in this 1 year, i dont care that you didnt like it or you want something else. Content is what it is and not what you want it to be.

So.....are you high? Or do the patches games like WoW and especially FFXIV get every 2 or 3 months NOT count suddenly? Hell, FFXIV got a patch with a new raid less than a month after Shadowbringer's launch.

Would you like to continue trolling or will you keep thinking your opinion matters more than everyone else's?

[kuciol]

1 minute ago, Ephemiel said:

Nice strawman there mate, asking me to provide a game with no complains as if that's what ANYONE here is saying.

Thank you though for confirming the troll is you.

I asked for a game without the exact same complains as warframe has, not complains at all. Nobody could provide such example in any topic i asked for it.

[kuciol]

Just now, Ephemiel said:

So.....are you high? Or do the patches games like WoW and especially FFXIV get every 2 or 3 months NOT count suddenly? Hell, FFXIV got a patch with a new raid less than a month after Shadowbringer's launch.

Would you like to continue trolling or will you keep thinking your opinion matters more than everyone else's?

Going by your definition? No they do not. They dont provide any new content just some balance changes and bug fixes.

[Ephemiel]

1 minute ago, kuciol said:

I asked for a game without the exact same complains as warframe has, not complains at all. Nobody could provide such example in any topic i asked for it.

Well, taking into account no other game teases something in one convention and then tease it AGAIN in the same convention next year and still tell people "wait till December", kinda hard to provide it.

Keep on trolling though!

[Ephemiel]

1 minute ago, kuciol said:

Going by your definition? No they do not. They dont provide any new content just some balance changes and bug fixes.

Ah, so a patch that adds new quests, dungeons and raids is NOT new content. 

Yeah.....more confirmation that your trolling is really getting out of control.

[kuciol]

Just now, Ephemiel said:

Ah, so a patch that adds new quests, dungeons and raids is NOT new content. 

Yeah.....more confirmation that your trolling is really getting out of control.

No, they dont have them frequently. Just because they got this one just after the expansion does not mean it always like that. We go exploiter the same way, we got tridolon the same way etc. They have even longer phases of nothing at all and yes i did check it.

[Loza03]

15 minutes ago, kuciol said:

Not in this game. You are even lore wise this unstoppable war machine. You dont need Umbra to face Ballas, you could do that on your own. You look for him to find Lotus. 

Repeating an argument that's been proven wrong doesn't make it right. We pretty definitively start out as an unarmed warrior having to run and hide from a dramatically more powerful enemy (Vor), who is just a minion, then growing in power until you can oppose him. And then again in the War Within, we are stripped of our power which was insufficient anyway, and must gather new power until we can face the threat.

15 minutes ago, kuciol said:

But it is enjoyable and engaging, you are just past that point where it mattered. Seriously how long do you think you should be engaged? 3-5 years is not enough? Dont be silly.

If there is a 'past the point where the game is fun', then that's a serious problem. BotW doesn't stop being fun. Mega Man X doesn't stop being fun. Even Space Invaders is still a pretty good game.

Good gameplay doesn't 'stop' being fun. Sure, doing it endlessly will tire you out eventually, but Warframe doesn't magically stop being automated because you took a break for six months.

[Ephemiel]

Just now, kuciol said:

No, they dont have them frequently. Just because they got this one just after the expansion does not mean it always like that. We go exploiter the same way, we got tridolon the same way etc. They have even longer phases of nothing at all and yes i did check it.

I love you too little troll 🙂

[kuciol]

1 minute ago, Loza03 said:

Repeating an argument that's been proven wrong doesn't make it right. We pretty definitively start out as an unarmed warrior having to run and hide from a dramatically more powerful enemy (Vor), who is just a minion, then growing in power until you can oppose him. And then again in the War Within, we are stripped of our power which was insufficient anyway, and must gather new power until we can face the threat.

If there is a 'past the point where the game is fun', then that's a serious problem. BotW doesn't stop being fun. Mega Man X doesn't stop being fun. Even Space Invaders is still a pretty good game.

Good gameplay doesn't 'stop' being fun. Sure, doing it endlessly will tire you out eventually, but Warframe doesn't magically stop being automated because you took a break for six months.

Of course they did stop being fun. You ignore 1 very important thing. People come back to those games but for this to happen leaving had to occur. You dont play those game for 5 years every day and do not spend 5k hours without a break in them. Also the only reason you need to deal with Vor is because of Ascaris that he implanted you with. You dont have your weapons, you dont have your full power yet. After that you melt everything. I dont care what you want Warframe to be, i care what i want it to be. I want power fantasy op shi.t that melts everything on its path. If i wanted what you try to make it to be i would be playing Destiny that i got for free. 

[Loza03]

1 minute ago, kuciol said:

Of course they did stop being fun. You ignore 1 very important thing. People come back to those games but for this to happen leaving had to occur. You dont play those game for 5 years every day and do not spend 5k hours without a break in them.

I said that.

10 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

Sure, doing it endlessly will tire you out eventually, but Warframe doesn't magically stop being automated because you took a break for six months.

 

 

2 minutes ago, kuciol said:

Also the only reason you need to deal with Vor is because of Ascaris that he implanted you with. You dont have your weapons, you dont have your full power yet. After that you melt everything.

The dozens of people asking 'how do I do X' or being unable to progress past the Valkyr spectre and so on and so forth distinctively prove that wrong. 

3 minutes ago, kuciol said:

I dont care what you want Warframe to be, i care what i want it to be.

And there it is.

"What you want doesn't matter, my opinion is more important than yours."

 

[Ephemiel]

1 minute ago, Loza03 said:

"What you want doesn't matter, my opinion is more important than yours."

And there it is, the beginning and end of his arguments.

Notice all the times he says something along the lines of "i don't care about X" when he's trying to counter someone's arguments.

[Ephemiel]

2 hours ago, kuciol said:

Ember and raid removal threads had a lot more complaining, so people are mostly either ok with the change, dont care that much or are simply willing to give it a shot. Saying that DE doesnt care about feedback is simply wrong.

Many Warframe Partners recently have mentioned DE simply doesn't care about feedback, but sure random forum guy, you're right and they're wrong even when they agree with people more and more.

[kuciol]

2 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

I said that.

Yes you did but you still ignored what it truly means. Go play those games for 5000 hours then we can talk.

2 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

The dozens of people asking 'how do I do X' or being unable to progress past the Valkyr spectre and so on and so forth distinctively prove that wrong. 

People sucking at the game dont change what the game really is.

3 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

And there it is.

"What you want doesn't matter, my opinion is more important than yours."

Of course that how it is. I dont have messiah complex like some of you. I wont hide behind pompous speeches how i need to save the game despite it having more and more players. I play the game for what it currently is, you want to change that its natural that i will have problem with it.

[kuciol]

1 minute ago, Ephemiel said:

Many Warframe Partners recently have mentioned DE simply doesn't care about feedback, but sure random forum guy, you're right and they're wrong even when they agree with people more and more.

None of them did say it. All of them acknowledged however that game is made for casuals.