Maybe is time to update the game?

[844448]

Just now, DeathDweller said:

Yeah that's why i put publisher in " ".It's financial mostly but still when you are financialy supported you stop being independent.

Purchase is different from financial support, if they financially support DE it would mean they have monthly pocket money from them but no, they only bought DE, something that is one time action as long term investment

If you want to talk about financial support, it would be something like $500m of budget from Activision, that's what I call as financial support

[Loza03]

8 minutes ago, 844448 said:

Have more reasons to play is also the closest thing to have more items in reward table

Remember that discussion from earlier, when I pointed out that people generally don't say what they actually want because they don't consciously know it?

If they just wanted more rewards and that was all, they'd be asking for more rewards from everything. Defection for example - don't particularly see people begging for more stuff from there.

The fact they're asking for rewards from specifically disruption is telling.

11 minutes ago, 844448 said:

Trivialising the challenging content will happen one day on any game so what's the point? And this sounds like you don't like the direction of power warframe is going as you want, but you don't want to let go of it

Power creep is a thing, yes. But if proper balance exists, then DE can actually keep up with that power creep, which they very obviously cannot now. As evidenced by the Eidolons which were tough content for all of a week or two or the fact that people could trivialise Arbitrations (which, mind you, were explicitly stated for people to commonly fail them) almost from the word go.

13 minutes ago, 844448 said:

Now, if you want to balance it, how do you do it without "trimming the numbers", ability resistance, immunity, weak point, complete rework of all abilities, core system rework, or power creep?

"How do you balance something without using any of the things that make balance?"

Or maybe all those things (except power creep) are necessary and in fact positive and more interesting in moderation, and when they're a problem in Warframe it's because they're not used in moderation? For example - nullifiers being everywhere, especially in the Orb Vallis. Complete nullification is something that should be reserved for special occasions. For example, I would switch Scrambus's and Nullifiers (with rebalancing of damage and health and whatnot), because a partial nullification - a resistance of sorts - is more fitting for a common-ish enemy than total ability nullification, which is one of the most powerful abilities in the game.

Moderation is key. The 'no nerf, only buff' mentality is, honestly, responsible for the situation we're in now, not the solution to it.

[DeathDweller]

13 minutes ago, (XB1)Eminem2420 said:

You're pretty delusional if you think that AAA studios only have 200-300 people. They have thousands of employees. It took about 900 people just to finish an Assassins Creed game. If you don't believe me, then look it up yourself. You'll find the actual numbers to be far different than the ones you're providing.

As to the OP. DE did used to have smaller, more frequent updates, but then people wanted larger updates that took longer. Tbh, i don't see why DE even listens to the fan base anymore. Warframe players don't know what they want and are never happy with anything DE puts out. I have never seen so much complaining from one fan base before. DE is working on stuff, but the development of that content takes time. You're just going to have to be patient. That's all there is to it, really. 

Depends on the game thus why i said usually.And you are confusing the whole studio with the people working on the game.Ubisoft is a publisher also, has multiple titles and studios around the world so of course they'll have thousands.We are talking about workforce per title here.Variety on those numbers will exist for sure but 300+ people on a title isn't indie.

 

12 minutes ago, 844448 said:

Purchase is different from financial support, if they financially support DE it would mean they have monthly pocket money from them but no, they only bought DE, something that is one time action as long term investment

If you want to talk about financial support, it would be something like $500m of budget from Activision, that's what I call as financial support

Well as i said i don't know the exact deal between the studio and the company but i can only assume, that because of the fact DE wanted to reduce developing costs and sold their studio to Leyou, means that Leyou covers those costs.So it's financial support.

Edited August 25, 2019 by DeathDweller

[(XBOX)Eminem2420]

Just now, DeathDweller said:

Depends on the game thus why i said usually.And you are confusing the whole studio with the people working on the game.Ubisoft is a publisher also, has multiple titles and studios around the world so of course they'll have thousands.We are talking about workforce per title here.Variety on those numbers will exist for sure but 300+ people on a title isn't indie.

 

Well as i said i don't know the exact deal between the studio and the company but i can only assume, that because of the fact DE wanted to reduce developing costs and sold their studio to Leyou, means that Leyou covers those costs.So it's financial support.

If you're going to completely ignore everything i said, then do not bother to respond to me. I'm not going to repeat what i said if you can't bother reading my post. 

[DeathDweller]

29 minutes ago, (XB1)Eminem2420 said:

If you're going to completely ignore everything i said, then do not bother to respond to me. I'm not going to repeat what i said if you can't bother reading my post. 

What did i ignore?You said that AC has 900 people on dev and i said variety exists.There are games made with 200 people some with 500 some with 1500.They are not calling themselves indie.Not even DE call themselves indie.You people do.

Edit:And if you want examples here taken from wiki:

ZeniMax Online Studios LLC is an American video game developer and a subsidiary of ZeniMax Media, specializing in massively multiplayer online games.[1] The company developed The Elder Scrolls Online and its downloadable content.[1] ZeniMax Online Studios had around 250 employees in 2012.

Zenimax wasn't indie back then and they are not now.ESO wasn't an Indie game and it isn't now.So i don't see what's your problem.

Edited August 25, 2019 by DeathDweller

[844448]

5 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

Remember that discussion from earlier, when I pointed out that people generally don't say what they actually want because they don't consciously know it?

If they just wanted more rewards and that was all, they'd be asking for more rewards from everything. Defection for example - don't particularly see people begging for more stuff from there.

The fact they're asking for rewards from specifically disruption is telling.

This is the problem, you said they want reason to play something, which is a very broad definition, reward is also broad enough because what is the reward that is considered rewarding? Surely people say disruption is not rewarding when it's on Jupiter, which is a mid tier mission so would make sense if they drop meso and neo at best

8 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

Power creep is a thing, yes. But if proper balance exists, then DE can actually keep up with that power creep, which they very obviously cannot now. As evidenced by the Eidolons which were tough content for all of a week or two or the fact that people could trivialise Arbitrations (which, mind you, were explicitly stated for people to commonly fail them) almost from the word go.

"How do you balance something without using any of the things that make balance?"

Or maybe all those things (except power creep) are necessary and in fact positive and more interesting in moderation, and when they're a problem in Warframe it's because they're not used in moderation? For example - nullifiers being everywhere, especially in the Orb Vallis. Complete nullification is something that should be reserved for special occasions. For example, I would switch Scrambus's and Nullifiers (with rebalancing of damage and health and whatnot), because a partial nullification - a resistance of sorts - is more fitting for a common-ish enemy than total ability nullification, which is one of the most powerful abilities in the game.

Moderation is key. The 'no nerf, only buff' mentality is, honestly, responsible for the situation we're in now, not the solution to it.

And the community has accepted warframe identity as overpowered being fighting mortals which is not until 100% of players can trivialise everything. I would like to see how they will respond, especially you when railjack comes out with new balancing where you can't trivialise the entire combat for a split second

[(NSW)Lunavay]

No game is meant to be played forever.

Those Youtubers/streamers play it like a job and getting money out of it. They are really not in the same category as the majority of players so their complaints really need to be treated differently which is, different ways of saying "I'm not making enough money out of this" more often than not instead of the actual quality of the game as a player.

Edited August 25, 2019 by (NSW)Lunavay

[Loza03]

Just now, 844448 said:

This is the problem, you said they want reason to play something, which is a very broad definition, reward is also broad enough because what is the reward that is considered rewarding? Surely people say disruption is not rewarding when it's on Jupiter, which is a mid tier mission so would make sense if they drop meso and neo at best

You're still focusing on the extrinsic rewards, which as I've established are just the breadcrumbs.

People are asking for more breadcrumbs to go play disruption specifically, which indicates that they like disruption. Disruption is one of the least automatable gamemodes. Therefore, it is reasonable to conclude that people quite like that and want to play it (and logically, things like it) more.

27 minutes ago, 844448 said:

And the community has accepted warframe identity as overpowered being fighting mortals which is not until 100% of players can trivialise everything. I would like to see how they will respond, especially you when railjack comes out with new balancing where you can't trivialise the entire combat for a split second

The uproar for more stuff from disruption certainly seems to put a hole in that.

I am also interested to see about Railjack, which Steve has said is trialing out some ideas for Damage 3.0. I don't know if it still is or not, but the response to Railjack will absolutely shape the future of Warframe.

[844448]

Just now, Loza03 said:

You're still focusing on the extrinsic rewards, which as I've established are just the breadcrumbs.

People are asking for more breadcrumbs to go play disruption specifically, which indicates that they like disruption. Disruption is one of the least automatable gamemodes. Therefore, it is reasonable to conclude that people quite like that and want to play it (and logically, things like it) more.

And really, what is that you really consider as intrinsic rewards that universally accepted? My intrinsic reward is my ability to turn off AI and one shot.

People didn't play disruption because they like it, it was considered as the most efficient way on getting hexenon and after that, not wanting to play because it needs you to actively play and find the demolyst

3 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

The uproar for more stuff from disruption certainly seems to put a hole in that.

I am also interested to see about Railjack, which Steve has said is trialing out some ideas for Damage 3.0. I don't know if it still is or not, but the response to Railjack will absolutely shape the future of Warframe.

I really doubt if the result will lean to more balanced gameplay when people are used to saryn and chroma

[Loza03]

1 minute ago, 844448 said:

And really, what is that you really consider as intrinsic rewards that universally accepted? My intrinsic reward is my ability to turn off AI and one shot.

This again. Where am I saying that has to go entirely?

I'm saying that I should take more effort, which has been shown to make the mind more sensitive to reward and loss. In other words, a bigger payoff - more engagement - more intrinsic reward. Citation in the spoiler if you want to read it.

Spoiler

Hernandez Lallement, J., Kuss, K., Trautner, P., Weber, B., Falk, A., & Fliessbach, K. (2013). Effort increases sensitivity to reward and loss magnitude in the human brain. Social cognitive and affective neuroscience, 9(3), 342-349.

Yeah, I'm citing Academia.

6 minutes ago, 844448 said:

I really doubt if the result will lean to more balanced gameplay when people are used to saryn and chroma

Maybe.

Maybe not. We'll see when we get there.

[kuciol]

19 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

People are asking for more breadcrumbs to go play disruption specifically, which indicates that they like disruption. Disruption is one of the least automatable gamemodes. Therefore, it is reasonable to conclude that people quite like that and want to play it (and logically, things like it) more.

You know what puts the biggest hole in your thought? The fact that the most braindead solutions are the meta, always and in every game. You know why disruption became popular? Because its just mix between survival and defense but faster then both. The speed at which you get things done is the biggest factor why people choose one thing over the other. It is like that because lets face it gamers are just lazy, thats why we play games instead of being productive in the first place. 

Edited August 25, 2019 by kuciol

[Ephemiel]

3 hours ago, kuciol said:

im the exception to the rule

😕 and we have the messiah complex?

[Industriellenvereinigung]

hello where can i buy content

[(NSW)Edcaous]

6 hours ago, 844448 said:

And really, what is that you really consider as intrinsic rewards that universally accepted? My intrinsic reward is my ability to turn off AI and one shot.

People didn't play disruption because they like it, it was considered as the most efficient way on getting hexenon and after that, not wanting to play because it needs you to actively play and find the demolyst

 

Not true, the most efficient way was getting a farming party and going to the dark sector survival mission on Jupiter.

6 hours ago, (NSW)Lunavay said:

No game is meant to be played forever.

Those Youtubers/streamers play it like a job and getting money out of it. They are really not in the same category as the majority of players so their complaints really need to be treated differently which is, different ways of saying "I'm not making enough money out of this" more often than not instead of the actual quality of the game as a player.

True... playing a game because you're paid to do so makes it feel even worse.

[bibmobello]

9 hours ago, kuciol said:

AAA studios have like 15 000 people, just check Activision, Ubisoft, Bethesda and EA at top end. Bethesda publishing branch has 400 alone. Your arbitrary numbers mean really nothing.

Yes they have 1.000.000 of people...

Indie today doesn't mean anything, we can speak only  about SMM. If in United states as in Canada  having only 320 employes, under 500, DE it's considered a medium-sized manufacturer.

Edited August 26, 2019 by bibmobello

[kuciol]

5 minutes ago, bibmobello said:

Yes they have 1.000.000 of people...

Google Ubisoft for example 13 800.

[kuciol]

5 hours ago, Ephemiel said:

😕 and we have the messiah complex?

You dont even know what it means kid. im not trying to save the game like you do.

[Falseliberty]

Man this thread still going? It never fails I've played a few MMOs and when people try to quit they make a big mess out of everything instead of just quitting quietly. like a GF that cheated or some kind of bad break up. that iflynn guy is about to find out most people are not going to watch his other content. life of rio thou I think always had a small thing for fighting games he might be ok

[(XBOX)tealfigment]

hello.. im that guy about the titania skin yes... just came over here to make sure my voice is heard🐵

[Renginus]

On 2019-08-23 at 5:34 PM, (XB1)Skippy575 said:

Are Railjack and the New War not content then?

That is content but its not good bcs every other gamemode will be still the same grindy repetetive and boring

They need to start upgrading things more than doing new

Look how many weapons noone uses stupid usseles warframe skills augments mod system is stupid if u want add some augment u cant decide what mod remove

Look at enemy ai enemyies all the time just pick up weapon and shoot 0 tactics

[(PSN)GbHaseo]

On 2019-08-25 at 11:32 AM, DeathDweller said:

Indie studio: usually 1-50 people.

AAA studio:usually 200-300 people.

DE:310 people.

Well technically indie is used for studio's that self-publish or don't have owners. Like Bungie now that they've broken from Activision are technically independent now. 

Again just depends on your use of the term, some it's size and budget, some it's the original meaning. Either way DE don't fall into either of those anymore. But because they love to talk about their struggles, years ago, ppl still tend to think of them like that. They're not anymore though, and I start to wonder if now they throw it out constantly as a way of PR, so ppl still see them as "the little guy".

Edited August 26, 2019 by (PS4)GbHaseo

[kuciol]

11 hours ago, Renginus said:

That is content but its not good bcs every other gamemode will be still the same grindy repetetive and boring

They need to start upgrading things more than doing new

But that will also be gradually changed , not all at once so before they finish the "newer" things will already be stale and old and you have never ending cycle. 

11 hours ago, Renginus said:

Look at enemy ai enemyies all the time just pick up weapon and shoot 0 tactics

As much as i im not oppossed to this idea i dont think its reasonable to even try. Mobs will either die in 1 hit so improvements will be pointless or they will just get annoying to deal with.

Edited August 26, 2019 by kuciol

[Ephemiel]

17 hours ago, Falseliberty said:

Man this thread still going? It never fails I've played a few MMOs and when people try to quit they make a big mess out of everything instead of just quitting quietly. like a GF that cheated or some kind of bad break up. that iflynn guy is about to find out most people are not going to watch his other content. life of rio thou I think always had a small thing for fighting games he might be ok

Reaper's leaving too. Others have quietly left too.

[Spectre-8]

" It's a beautiful game but you won't be able to update it "

🤣

[Falseliberty]

5 hours ago, Ephemiel said:

Reaper's leaving too. Others have quietly left too.

Your putting too much stock in You tubers.. someone will come along who is hungry and pick up the slack. Hell Skill Up has posted a ton of great stuff on warframe and hes a destiny 2 deserter. Not to mention the tone of these people have makes me scratch my head . Why not just take a break? And show us other awesome games? But naw lets be negative and bash one of the few devs that's trying to shake up things keep things interesting and not slam our face with lootboxes.

Sure nothing wrong with constructive criticism. But "whaaa im bored and i hate this game now and i'm leaving and u smell bad DE"  nobody wants to hear that crap   GROW UP