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TheBlackishBoy

The state of warframes community/playerbase

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I made a really big and kinda unorganized thread about changes to core problems lots of vets want to change in the game. Most of the changes were about more difficulty, better enemy scaling, and enemies with more complex mechanics replacing things like eximus units to make the game more challenging and rewarding. The thread didn't get much attention but that's not really what worried me, what did worry me was that someone who replied to the forum said something like "i don't want challenge in the game that's not what i play for". This brings up a good question and even kinda relates to a video mogamu made about a devstream.

Is difficulty impossible in warframe? Every time the devs add difficulty people complain about how things are too hard and they have to make things weaker. I'm not talking about downright broken things like armor, but just things like enemies being "too hard" to the point they have to nerf them. People create threads on how to add difficulty and people say the game is fine how it is and doesn't need harder stuff most of the time. It's obvious that DE doesn't add hard content for vets because new people or just more casual players will complain that they can't participate. It happened with old events that were hard people would scream in the forums to nerf them.

These days in warframe we have tons of power and seem to get stronger every mainline update, the enemies tend to stay about the same though and when people ask for more challenge they get shushed by the players. On the devstream on of the devs said he wanted rewards to be more intrinsic, like that feeling you get when you beat a boss in dark souls for example, but is that possible in warframe when the players seem to hate the thought of any ounce of a challenge. Do you want challenge in the game? Do you think they should just keep the game as casual as possible with everyone being able to access 90% of the content. (There are mastery locks for some things but power leveling weapons is common and easy you can get a high mastery in a couple weeks). I think it would be interesting to hear the communities feelings on the topic and if the main player base is against difficulty then ig the vets can just give up on endgame because ultimately they have to keep the majority happy.

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1 minute ago, TheBlackishBoy said:

walloftextprime

There can be no difficulty when select weapons and warframes can be utilised to wipe everything, and render such content trivial. 

What you propose either requires Warframe to become a wholly new game, or for everything to be nerfed and built up from scratch. 

Also, please no. I really like the power fantasy Warframe right now gives me. 

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Just now, sleepychewbacca said:

There can be no difficulty when select weapons and warframes can be utilised to wipe everything, and render such content trivial. 

What you propose either requires Warframe to become a wholly new game, or for everything to be nerfed and built up from scratch. 

Also, please no. I really like the power fantasy Warframe right now gives me. 

Thanks for giving you opinion on the matter.

I would like to say that i just gave simple changes to the core of the game to make it more challenging, it wouldn't make every enemy hard to kill or anything and it would help scaling armor so enemies aren't bullet sponges but there would be mechanics to make player skill important when killing heavy enemies.  It wouldn't change the whole game and it would keep the speed intact but it would take more skill to play. But i get your point thanks

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Gerade eben schrieb sleepychewbacca:

There can be no difficulty when select weapons and warframes can be utilised to wipe everything, and render such content trivial. 

What you propose either requires Warframe to become a wholly new game, or for everything to be nerfed and built up from scratch. 

Also, please no. I really like the power fantasy Warframe right now gives me. 

This.

I know challange would be nice but soon enough people will find ways to cheese it, for one simple reason, Warframe is and always was is a grind and farm game, people doing the same thing over and over again so they want it over faster to repeat, so they choose or find the quickest way.

Of course we still can play for fun which most do hopefully, but then there are things like Nightwave or Hema farm as mere example where it feels tedious.

Another reason then people won't enjoy challange if also the reward won't keep you busy and as soon they got all rewards the new missions get irrelevant.

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I hope the new war sentient maps introduces some difficulty to the game I understand the rest of the game being really easy but at least some parts of the game should be hard like remnant from the ashes a game that is hard but not too hard if you can pay attention and dodge or move out of the way at right moments. games dont have to be sekiro dunno why DE is so afraid to add in some measure of hard content.

Also I don't see long endurance as hard that is just stand until a bullet or single attack one shots you that is not difficulty that is just people that like pain. Mostly cause the game is not design around at least giving you some time to dodge a single bullet that is hit scan from the enemies.

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2 minutes ago, TheBlackishBoy said:

Thanks for giving you opinion on the matter.

I would like to say that i just gave simple changes to the core of the game to make it more challenging, it wouldn't make every enemy hard to kill or anything and it would help scaling armor so enemies aren't bullet sponges but there would be mechanics to make player skill important when killing heavy enemies.  It wouldn't change the whole game and it would keep the speed intact but it would take more skill to play. But i get your point thanks

Please forgive me if I'm short, I've been lurking on a lot of troll threads, so my brain might not be 100% constructive. 

Personally, I'm in full agreement with you. Challenge is good, and I for one would love to see more enemies with mechanics like the Grineer Nox. Things that don't forcefully nullify your frame and ruin the immersion of power fantasy. 

However, the reason I said what I said is simply because the gameplay loop of Warframe is built around the idea of cheesing whatever it is we can get our hands on. Or at least it has become this. 

1 minute ago, (XB1)The Neko Otaku said:

These doom and gloom threads are getting little annoying and feels like someone is just spamming a copy pasta from multiple accounts.

Seems more like a difficulty could be improved thread vs the game is dying. I did not see OP make any such claim in the opening post. I'm actually surprised it straddles compromise more than "my opinion is better, hurr durr". 

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Lower the farm required. Aka materials required for crafting stuff. Put more of the "1" per instance sh1t / etc.
Fix the primary weapons to feel like a Primary, not RIVEN dependent. Hell even my Melee / Kitgun are doing MORE damage and clearing faster group of enemies.
Remove core 0/1 from the affinity selected by the game engine.

Its been YEARS and yet it still feels like a darn BETA.

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10 minutes ago, Marine027 said:

This.

I know challange would be nice but soon enough people will find ways to cheese it, for one simple reason, Warframe is and always was is a grind and farm game, people doing the same thing over and over again so they want it over faster to repeat, so they choose or find the quickest way.

Of course we still can play for fun which most do hopefully, but then there are things like Nightwave or Hema farm as mere example where it feels tedious.

Another reason then people won't enjoy challange if also the reward won't keep you busy and as soon they got all rewards the new missions get irrelevant.

well kinda the thing is warframe sucks at adding difficulty, they add time gates or more health 90% of the time. If they have enemies mechanics rather then health constantly and gave some heavy units the ability to block cc it would add variety to normal combat. For example i suggested enemies that would suck the warframes health if they got too close but would shoot projectiles at the player that need to be dodged. You can't slide melee or youll take damage but you can't just shoot him from a distance because you need to dodge so it would reward skillfull mobility and you could kill the enemy quickly still without having to unload 90 clips into him keeping the game fast paced but still mixing up combat. I mean i had a whole thread and the changes all complimented eachother to make combat as a whole more challenging and rewarding so difficulty can exist but players tend to want it pushed back. This is more about what the players want.

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Im ok with difficulty as long as the way to counter it isn't just bringing a tankier frame with an AOE weapon... like how it is in 90% of this game now

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9 minutes ago, Noworth said:

Lower the farm required. Aka materials required for crafting stuff. Put more of the "1" per instance sh1t / etc.
Fix the primary weapons to feel like a Primary, not RIVEN dependent. Hell even my Melee / Kitgun are doing MORE damage and clearing faster group of enemies.
Remove core 0/1 from the affinity selected by the game engine.

Its been YEARS and yet it still feels like a darn BETA.

Balancing is important for sure and millions of threads have tackled that including a few of mine but this is more about the desires of the players. Does the player base really want challenge or does the majority want to press 4 and kill everything without much thought.

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25 minutes ago, TheBlackishBoy said:

I made a really big and kinda unorganized thread about changes to core problems lots of vets want to change in the game. Most of the changes were about more difficulty, better enemy scaling, and enemies with more complex mechanics replacing things like eximus units to make the game more challenging and rewarding. The thread didn't get much attention but that's not really what worried me, what did worry me was that someone who replied to the forum said something like "i don't want challenge in the game that's not what i play for". This brings up a good question and even kinda relates to a video mogamu made about a devstream.

Is difficulty impossible in warframe? Every time the devs add difficulty people complain about how things are too hard and they have to make things weaker. I'm not talking about downright broken things like armor, but just things like enemies being "too hard" to the point they have to nerf them. People create threads on how to add difficulty and people say the game is fine how it is and doesn't need harder stuff most of the time. It's obvious that DE doesn't add hard content for vets because new people or just more casual players will complain that they can't participate. It happened with old events that were hard people would scream in the forums to nerf them.

These days in warframe we have tons of power and seem to get stronger every mainline update, the enemies tend to stay about the same though and when people ask for more challenge they get shushed by the players. On the devstream on of the devs said he wanted rewards to be more intrinsic, like that feeling you get when you beat a boss in dark souls for example, but is that possible in warframe when the players seem to hate the thought of any ounce of a challenge. Do you want challenge in the game? Do you think they should just keep the game as casual as possible with everyone being able to access 90% of the content. (There are mastery locks for some things but power leveling weapons is common and easy you can get a high mastery in a couple weeks). I think it would be interesting to hear the communities feelings on the topic and if the main player base is against difficulty then ig the vets can just give up on endgame because ultimately they have to keep the majority happy.

The problem is really finding the right balance, it will always be a problem between, time gating, drop chance, actual game content, QOL, etc. 

This will probably never change,  the eternal pursuit for balance.

 

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vor 3 Minuten schrieb TheBlackishBoy:

well kinda the thing is warframe sucks at adding difficulty, they add time gates or more health 90% of the time. If they have enemies mechanics rather then health constantly and gave some heavy units the ability to block cc it would add variety to normal combat. For example i suggested enemies that would suck the warframes health if they got too close but would shoot projectiles at the player that need to be dodged. You can't slide melee or youll take damage but you can't just shoot him from a distance because you need to dodge so it would reward skillfull mobility and you could kill the enemy quickly still without having to unload 90 clips into him keeping the game fast paced but still mixing up combat. I mean i had a whole thread and the changes all complimented eachother to make combat as a whole more challenging and rewarding so difficulty can exist but players tend to want it pushed back. This is more about what the players want.

I do agree wih all this but then the problem again, how long will it keep peopel entertained till it gets repetetive, Warframe feels like a game you can't add much variety towards one boss as example, you do a rotation like the Orbs as exampel or Eidolon, then repeat those steps over and over.

Same for lets say Eximus units partly, we do have toxic onces draining health, we do have enemys ignoring CC mostly on Fortuna now which of course can be challanging but then also comes down to kill them fast with pwerful weapons or damage Warframes, rendering then CC and Support Warframes uselss, limiting your gameplay to much again

Same goes for bulletsponges like Wolf or simliar enemys.

I am all in for mechanics, especially against bosses, loving the Kela fight as example, but then as mentioned it can get repetitive way to quick.

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1 minute ago, Learicorn said:

Im ok with difficulty as long as the way to counter it isn't just bringing a tankier frame with an AOE weapon... like how it is in 90% of this game now

I agree tanking everything or just killing it as soon as it spawns is a problem which is why we need less health focused enemy stuff for challenge and more mechanics that mix up the gamaplay. I always like how fodder enemies are super easy to kill and i think they should always stay like that for the most part throughout the game even at high levels but i suggested things like making it to where when they are in a certain range of eachother they get increased accuracy and status so they are more of a threat if you let too many group up but they would still be fairly easy to kill. Then heavy enemies could be changed to be less bullet spongey but more skill rewarding where you have to focus on precision and mobility to kill them or taking down their defences in a more skillful way instead of just adding invulnerability time gates. That way you have to try and kill heavies so they don't kill you or gang up but you also have to kill the fodder enemies or they can do a lot of damage. Just small things like that can add difficulty and wouldn't take tons of time to implement but ultimately it's up to the players if they want challenge in the game period.

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I guess DE would have to figure out how to make some challenging things that negate the possibility of cheesing, and without having to negate some, or all, of the possibilities we have in gameplay choices. 

Challenge is always good. Though they should keep fresh stuff for casuals and for those who want to enjoy the power trip. 

But, there is always place for challenging content, to please people who want it. It can't be everything about casuals, new players and people with fetiches about being gods.  

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There can't be difficulty in WF cause it's not a skill based game.We all have seen how people can wipe out entire rooms or clear 4-6 Tridolons in 50 mins.For me the steps to "endgame" is to:

1 Lock content behind mastery and put it in order to create a feeling of proggresion to the player.

2 Create a new player experience to lure new players and right after that, every new update to be targeted only for the highest masteries like every other rpg out there so the player will have an incentive to play.

3 More 1 time quests on open worlds(like 100 quests or something) with unique standard rewards apart from the rng, dungeons with exploration and puzzles that can't be skipped or rushed etc.Bosses and Raids on those areas.

OR

Repeatable missions as of now but with better rewards(not my prefference)

The content doesn't need to be hard, it needs to be challenging and engaging(lore, rewards, incentive).

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4 minutes ago, (PS4)TONI__RIBEIRO said:

The problem is really finding the right balance, it will always be a problem between, time gating, drop chance, actual game content, QOL, etc. 

This will probably never change,  the eternal pursuit for balance.

 

Yea a perfect game won't exist at least i don't think but in its current state its not even close to challenging or rewarding in a sustainable sense. It would take some effort but honestly tons of people and content creators offer great advice that people agree with but it seems like DE always goes to make the game easier or more casual with almost all the content. They almost never add anything for endgame players or vets. And if they want to go for casual players that's fine they don't have to add anything for vets but if that's the case it would just be nice to know. That's kinda the point of the thread, to see where the player base stands on the topic so that we can see if changes are even desired.

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So, since you indirectly mentioned me in the OP, here's my view on things.

No, I don't want difficulty. Not in Warframe. I've been conditioned these past 5 years that Warframe is a power fantasy game, that offers an experience very few games on the market offer (I'm aware of only 2 series, in fact: Dynasty Warriors and Earth Defense Force). I'm very comfortable with this conditioning, and I enjoy the game immensely as it is currently. I don't believe adding any difficulty to the game will improve it in any way, as it will take power away from the players, power that I personally feel like I worked hard to earn and I have the right to enjoy fully, and make what is essentially a very cathartic and relaxing game into something not cathartic and not relaxing.

Warframe has it's place in the market, just like all other games do, and I feel shaming it for being a power fantasy is stifling creativity and denying the market a very unique experience. There are many games out there with bullet sponges, intelligent AI, insanely low reward drops and content made to be repeated ad-nauseam. There is literally no other shooter on the market that offers the catharsis, relaxation opportunities and enjoyment factor of Warframe.

I've said it before, I'll say it again: If you want Warframe to be like *insert game here*, then go play *insert game here*. There's a reason Warframe is successful despite all of these apparent shortcomings that people seem to point out: It provides the consumer base with something that is desired but no one else provides. (See this Jim Sterling video to understand what I mean.) There are so many games that provide those things you guys ask for, why does Warframe have to be one of them as well, rather than it's own thing?

I like Warframe because it's Warframe. I don't want Warframe to be Destiny, I don't want Warframe to be Dark Souls, heck, I Idon't want Warframe to be Dynasty Warriors. I want Warframe to keep on being Warframe, and keep on providing me with the things it has for the past 5 years, cause it sure as hell doesn't look like anyone else will.

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42 minutes ago, TheBlackishBoy said:

Most of the changes were about more difficulty, better enemy scaling, and enemies with more complex mechanics replacing things like eximus units to make the game more challenging and rewarding.

your data might be skewed, because as a vet none of that looks worth using dev time on

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6 minutes ago, Marine027 said:

I do agree wih all this but then the problem again, how long will it keep peopel entertained till it gets repetetive, Warframe feels like a game you can't add much variety towards one boss as example, you do a rotation like the Orbs as exampel or Eidolon, then repeat those steps over and over.

Same for lets say Eximus units partly, we do have toxic onces draining health, we do have enemys ignoring CC mostly on Fortuna now which of course can be challanging but then also comes down to kill them fast with pwerful weapons or damage Warframes, rendering then CC and Support Warframes uselss, limiting your gameplay to much again

Same goes for bulletsponges like Wolf or simliar enemys.

I am all in for mechanics, especially against bosses, loving the Kela fight as example, but then as mentioned it can get repetitive way to quick.

That's true but it's mainly because there are no good rewards for the players and that it is almost always based on a set game mode or event. When they add cool mechanics like the orbs its for one boss fight. Same with kela. If they added enemies to normal missions game wide after a certain level for example it would mix up the whole game after say level 60. That way if you like survival you can play that with challenge or if you like defence same goes. Interception, and the other game modes we have too which would give players the ability to choose what they want and mix it up while they grind but also make things more difficult. The main thing is the rewards because there's no point in staying in a survival mission right now. Or most endless game modes tbh. Which is why the focus system was important because it was supposed to be like a huge path of exile type skill tree for everything in the game that gave small buffs to things and you gained it by affinity. But they need to also balance affinity gained to where you are incentivised to do more challenging modes like the endless ones to level faster in the trees (if they were to create them) but also leave the option for other players to still do the stealth multipliers ig they dont want to do the challenge but with more challenge and higher levels the rewards for affinity should get better. And ofc with railjack they could make raids that require teamwork and better weapons and stuff that way the buffs would matter to the players. But ultimately this is more about if the players want that kind of content because at this point its hard to tell.

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the game focuses mainly on fashion and 'fun' content like that shawzin thing. 

if you're into challenging content -- this game is not for you. 

go away and play your 'hard games' and leave the everloving bitesize casual community alone. 

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10 minutes ago, DeathDweller said:

There can't be difficulty in WF cause it's not a skill based game.We all have seen how people can wipe out entire rooms or clear 4-6 Eidolons in 12 mins.For me the steps to "endgame" is to:

1 Lock content behind mastery and put it in order to create a feeling of proggresion to the player.

2 Create a new player experience to lure new players and right after that, every new update to be targeted only for the highest masteries like every other rpg out there so the player will have an incentive to play.

3 More 1 time quests on open worlds(like 100 quests or something) with unique standar rewards apart from the rng, dungeons with exploration and puzzles that can't be skipped or rushed etc.Bosses and Raids on those areas.

OR

Repeatble missions as of now but with better rewards(not my prefference)

The content doesn't need to be hard, it needs to be challenging and engaging(lore, rewards, incentive).

the kela fight was probably one of the better ones because it gave players challenge with mechanics and required skill with mobility to fight her. Mechanics like that can be added to certain enemies in the game instead of just making them have resistance and huge health pools. Make them do damage but make it dodgeable so it incentives mobility while also making precision important to kills. Its not that hard to create concepts its more just them really sitting down and taking the time to implement them. They could assign a small team to do it and theres enough feedback from players to add that it wouldn't take much brainstorming to get the ball rolling but once again does the main player base want that? Because if its just a small part that does well the majority can complain and make things easier. At the end of the day they work for the players.

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3 minutes ago, BeeWhyOhBee said:

the game focuses mainly on fashion and 'fun' content like that shawzin thing. 

if you're into challenging content -- this game is not for you. 

go away and play your 'hard games' and leave the everloving bitesize casual community alone. 

Thanks for your input. I think it's important that we get your sides opinion as well because a lot of the players think like you. If the majority of the player based rather not have any challenge then maybe warframe isnt for the other players. It would be nice if warframe devs would just tell us that if it's the case rather then holding a promise just out of our grasp and never delivering. But this is good because if this is what the players want then de is doing great.

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9 minutes ago, Rawbeard said:

your data might be skewed, because as a vet none of that looks worth using dev time on

Fair enough ig some vets don't really care about challenge or sustainable gameplay and scaling rewards that's a good point. It would be nice if you actually said what you would like from de though just so we can see where you stand and what the majority of the players want from de. Thanks a lot

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This game needs another star chart within the star chart...much like how Lua and Earth function...Earth is easy peasy with the same enemy units so one side of the community can be happy with "The known factor.",....while Lua has the Sentients who say shoot me like the Joker to Batman...the problem was De mixed the two eventually watering down Lua so the Sentients were now actually easy to kill... BUT...

 

De really needs to stop with that and fill that one side of the star chart with the monsters who force team work and player really need to use their powers to survive while retaining the other part so new players can work up to it..and the fashion frame "don't change anything" portion of the community can stay there happily...

YET DE needs to be firm and say THIS IS THE LINE..YOU CROSS IT AT YOUR OWN PERIL AND NO WE'RE NOT NERFING IT FOR YOUR EGO....

 

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