Partners Leaving how does warframe fare?

[SneakyErvin]

12 hours ago, (PS4)sweatshawp said:

I can say the rewards part is very true being that a lot of exotics and such are in engrams now. But the challenge varies on the player. 

The content is still engaging and while may be easier because of the light boost it’s not some pushover if you’re completely new to the destiny franchise. My gf is playing through new light as we speak and while she says it’s not hard it’s engaing interesting and has much more to do for new players rather then wf. It keeps her engaged entertained and the content doesn’t require you to scour the forums and internet to get through or get an understanding of

The engagement may be there, but the challenge isnt. Bosses are just silly weak now with New Light. What people expect to be a challenge when you enter an encounter with warnings simply isnt there and those thoughts come from several new players complaining about just that. 

The only things I had to look up in WF were a few boss mechanics as I leveled through the game. The bosses however did feel like actual bosses and didnt become trivial faceroll until you were actually geared. That to me is a good new player experience. Granted if I had gone public it would have been faceroll due to getting carried that early on. In Destiny 2 it just stays the same forever, except in very specific content that scales beyond the regular light levels.

[(PSN)GEN-Son_17]

12 hours ago, (PS4)sweatshawp said:

The thing is we aren’t entitled to anything and it’s not entitlement at all it’s business. You’re many games are still good and have provided content for vets over the years to enjoy. Eso wow etc and more are a prime example. You don’t have to sacrifice the new player experience for the sake of vets nobody is saying it at all. But what we are asking for is something that could be tailored to us for once with out being marginalized for the entirety of the game. Me and a lot of players and apparently a lot of other devs see nothing wrong with having something to work towards and a proper endgame wf has none of that because everything is pretty much accessible to anyone given a few weeks of gameplay. There is no reason at this point to strive to go above or perform. A lot of vets just want something to do that can match up to the arsenal we’ve gained. We’re not demanding it because frankly most of us again aren’t playing the game right now. But I’d be nice to see the game we love seem like it cares about us. And as far as it goes de hasn’t said they don’t care. But their actions have made it feel like that. 

Again how is I’ve played the game for years supported it and also helped build the community now I feel neglected by the community and devs I ive enjoyed over the years entitlement. Seems more like a valid reason to be upset. 

DE has continually attempted to apply endgame aspects from the first Eidolan to the recent Disruption Lua. In fact, MOST of the 2019 updates have involved some sort of endgame addition for vets.

The problem is still misunderstanding DE's plan. Bones are thrown in to help calm the vets long enough for the new system to be created and released. Passionate vets being heard and DE building the solution is directly the problem because:

1) The time involved in creating such a large scale solution (ALL NEW EVERYTHING) is massive. And, regardless of what people think, a 320 complete employee count in a company is not enough to get this done quickly, especially a game this detailed.

2) The pressure placed on that large scale solution is immense when 2019 society has a huge issue with how business works. Not every employee is assigned to building warframe. That 320 count includes the janitors and lawyers. 

3) The unrealistic timeframe of expected completion. Again, this is the divide between what some call the "white knights" and the "salty vets". We're all aware of the challenges and talking points. The difference is that DE is very well versed in how playerbases work due to the exact same experiences Wow, D2, etc, have gone through with "content issues".

 

[(PSN)sweatshawp]

2 minutes ago, (PS4)GEN-Son_17 said:

DE has continually attempted to apply endgame aspects from the first Eidolan to the recent Disruption Lua. In fact, MOST of the 2019 updates have involved some sort of endgame addition for vets.

The problem is still misunderstanding DE's plan. Bones are thrown in to help calm the vets long enough for the new system to be created and released. Passionate vets being heard and DE building the solution is directly the problem because:

1) The time involved in creating such a large scale solution (ALL NEW EVERYTHING) is massive. And, regardless of what people think, a 320 complete employee count in a company is not enough to get this done quickly, especially a game this detailed.

2) The pressure placed on that large scale solution is immense when 2019 society has a huge issue with how business works. Not every employee is assigned to building warframe. That 320 count includes the janitors and lawyers. 

3) The unrealistic timeframe of expected completion. Again, this is the divide between what some call the "white knights" and the "salty vets". We're all aware of the challenges and talking points. The difference is that DE is very well versed in how playerbases work due to the exact same experiences Wow, D2, etc, have gone through with "content issues".

 

Eso and Arby’s have been nerfed significantly to cater to a more casual crowed but advertised as endgame content 

tricaps while did do a great job in balancing the market for arcanes is openly accessible to anyzyone with chroma. 

Orb mother while a decent boss fight has nobody playing it because of the standing requirements and forcing players to grind out archwing a mode that’s almost disliked by most and with having so few people to run it because of these two things hindered the fact that it’s a decent boss... until you find out all you need is chroma or rhino again...

orb Vallis upon release was nerfed a little too much because newer and the casual players couldn’t easily beat things 

thumpers were nerfed because players felt it’s not fair for something to be a challenge.(notice how I didn’t just say casuals there were some salty vets as well)

where is endgame brother?

 

[CoreWolf]

People saying "end game would ruin content for new players" - that doesn't have to be true.

Simple example - you add in a a new mode only available to people who have unlocked arbitration and completed all current story quests. That mode would be global difficulty scaling for *all nodes* that's toggled on or off, and can be increased in level, aka Torment modes in Diablo, Mayhem modes in Borderland, whatever it was in Anthem.

Then you add in unique "end game" rewards only available in that mode, that increase based on node / enemy difficulty, to motivate trying harder content. Ideally that reward should not impact on new players at all, so should be some new reward only relevant to veterans.

New players - completely unaffected.

That's just a jumping off point for systems they could build on top of that but it's so incredibly simple in concept. It also makes sense as you've basically re-used the entire star chart of content and made it relevant again. Smart use of resources.

For relevant rewards the problem has always been power creep, but my opinion would be that the problem there is the lack of content to accomodate that, *not* the power creep itself. The entire first few months of playing Warframe are almost entirely power creep and progression and arguably when the game is at its best - that should shed some light on the current issues in itself. Really the entire MMORPG genre is built around power creep and whilst most systems are far from perfect they do work. Warframe also starts with similar mechanics but they've just decided to stop developing those at a certain point. They seem to focus on wider but shallower content which has worked for a time but I think the amount of "unease" that's developing amongst the community should show it's not a viable long term plan if they want to retain players.

Ultimately that player retention is what has kept giants like World of Warcraft running for such a long time, so I think it's a mistake to neglect that. That depends on DE's own goals for the game however.

 

 

[CoreWolf]

Also, to add:

Lack of veterans doesn't mean end game content isn't wanted. It can just as easily mean the lack of that content is directly causing vets to lose interest and disengage. If you look at other games in the area - Destiny, Borderlands, MMORPGs - most of those have large communities and focus around "end game". Warframe is in the roughly the same genre as those, so the playerbase should be there if the content is provided.

I also think it's a mistake if it's assumed that end game is not needed as it's "only relevant to 1% of players" etc. In some cases the existence of end game as a goal to aim for, as something for veterans and content creators to play and generate interest in, is actually more important than whether that content is actually reached by the majority.

If you look at pretty much any activity people get engaged in a lot of us focus on some "end goal" that we might never actually achieve, but having it there to aim for is still very important in getting us involved and keeping us motivated.

[(PSN)sweatshawp]

1 hour ago, CoreWolf said:

Also, to add:

Lack of veterans doesn't mean end game content isn't wanted. It can just as easily mean the lack of that content is directly causing vets to lose interest and disengage. If you look at other games in the area - Destiny, Borderlands, MMORPGs - most of those have large communities and focus around "end game". Warframe is in the roughly the same genre as those, so the playerbase should be there if the content is provided.

I also think it's a mistake if it's assumed that end game is not needed as it's "only relevant to 1% of players" etc. In some cases the existence of end game as a goal to aim for, as something for veterans and content creators to play and generate interest in, is actually more important than whether that content is actually reached by the majority.

If you look at pretty much any activity people get engaged in a lot of us focus on some "end goal" that we might never actually achieve, but having it there to aim for is still very important in getting us involved and keeping us motivated.

Enjoyed reading your take!

[(PSN)GEN-Son_17]

4 hours ago, (PS4)sweatshawp said:

Eso and Arby’s have been nerfed significantly to cater to a more casual crowed but advertised as endgame content 

tricaps while did do a great job in balancing the market for arcanes is openly accessible to anyzyone with chroma. 

Orb mother while a decent boss fight has nobody playing it because of the standing requirements and forcing players to grind out archwing a mode that’s almost disliked by most and with having so few people to run it because of these two things hindered the fact that it’s a decent boss... until you find out all you need is chroma or rhino again...

orb Vallis upon release was nerfed a little too much because newer and the casual players couldn’t easily beat things 

thumpers were nerfed because players felt it’s not fair for something to be a challenge.(notice how I didn’t just say casuals there were some salty vets as well)

where is endgame brother?

 

You've proven my point. Everything you mentioned was endgame based. DE delivered and THE PLAYERS RESPONDED. On this very forum, people screamed about difficulty being too high. DE listened and toned it down. Then, another group of players who play the exact same game and are also on this forum, screamed that it was too easy now. So....who gets the cookie then? 

In truth, it's smart for DE to appeal to the less difficulty crowd simply because the game hasn't hit its final stages yet and, as we all know, the final stages are the hardest. For all we know, New War and Duviri could be a vet's dream come true, for no other reason than to be considered the final battle...the last "stage". Limited Umbra mods and inherent sentient damage resistances means DE can calculate the values any way they want without effecting the entire game nor attempt to justify the once OP warframes as suddenly "balanced" and mediocre at best. Only the sentients should be actual threats.

Regardless, all of this is mere talk, of course. I trust DE significantly more than players and especially Youtubers since I've been playing this one, single game for almost half a freakin' decade and still enjoy it. Those Youtubers talking about "not enough A, B or C content" are spoiled as hell if they suddenly think their voices weren't heard or DE hasn't delivered. Simple truth: DE presented bigger, better and more polished content but the playerbase wanted change. It's the player's fault 100% and is a direct message to other devs to be cautious when being open to the players. They will betray you.

[(PSN)sweatshawp]

4 minutes ago, (PS4)GEN-Son_17 said:

You've proven my point. Everything you mentioned was endgame based. DE delivered and THE PLAYERS RESPONDED. On this very forum, people screamed about difficulty being too high. DE listened and toned it down. Then, another group of players who play the exact same game and are also on this forum, screamed that it was too easy now. So....who gets the cookie then? 

In truth, it's smart for DE to appeal to the less difficulty crowd simply because the game hasn't hit its final stages yet and, as we all know, the final stages are the hardest. For all we know, New War and Duviri could be a vet's dream come true, for no other reason than to be considered the final battle...the last "stage". Limited Umbra mods and inherent sentient damage resistances means DE can calculate the values any way they want without effecting the entire game nor attempt to justify the once OP warframes as suddenly "balanced" and mediocre at best. Only the sentients should be actual threats.

Regardless, all of this is mere talk, of course. I trust DE significantly more than players and especially Youtubers since I've been playing this one, single game for almost half a freakin' decade and still enjoy it. Those Youtubers talking about "not enough A, B or C content" are spoiled as hell if they suddenly think their voices weren't heard or DE hasn't delivered. Simple truth: DE presented bigger, better and more polished content but the playerbase wanted change. It's the player's fault 100% and is a direct message to other devs to be cautious when being open to the players. They will betray you.

See how is it an issue for endgame at all or not causaling certain content because a certain group demands it or “whines” someone whining about the game being to hard is in the same boat as someone whining about said game being too easy so it negates itself in that regard but let me ask you if everything is too easy what is there to work for grind for go and excel for? 

Currently nothing. 

Thats the issue and again Therese nothing wrong with setting that standard and allowing that endgame to be present. Like someone said earlier endgame dosent exclude anyone rather set a point for everyone to work towards if they choose. The fact that warframe dosent have endgame or keeps toning it down in hopes of appeasing a casual audience saddens me. and  truth it’s not w smart if we’re going by metrics logic and numbers warframe is going down. Daily at that. What happens when a causal player stops playing ? They are likley to put the game down and forget about it. But what happens when you gain a dedicated player who has nothing to do? The same in many cases appealing to. A more tempory audience while larger right now in terms of longevity isn’t a smart move. And by no means am I saying only listen. To long standing players but neglecting their ideas constantly and not providing for them isn’t bright at all.

 

as far as I’m concerned I hope what your saying is true but I’m tired of hoping until they can follow through I have little faith in what they have planned because they’ve disappointed a lot more recently. But I doubt it and here is exactly what’s going to happen if there is challenge. Bookmark this exact response and watch it come true. 

“Content has a slightly higher difficulty curve then usual” 

“Twitter reddit and forums are in an uproar”

”content is then proceed to be nerfed depsite it being “endgame”. And we don’t have such challenge anymore”

also the treatment of ccs and founders is insane I’ve never seen a community so adamantly against ccs and even founders in extent. Most of the ccs have been playing as long as you if not from start and a plethora of them are founders. I’m not asking to give them special treatment but being that they’ve been here just as long and help promote the game in the long run why such negatively towards them? Search warframe on YouTube right now and as a player looking to get into the game or someone just interested right now at this very moment you see 3-4 videos of content creators rather then praise warframe for the great game it could be. Talk about the declining state of the game. That’s not good PR. in anyway. Not saying to appease the ccs either but when a margin of players agree with said things as well it’s not great. nobody is ungrateful we all care about the game a lot. And telling someone that they are ungrateful for caring is well. Disingenuous. I don’t have to be satisfied with something to care about it. I can be as tough and needed be because I care

[(PSN)GEN-Son_17]

2 hours ago, CoreWolf said:

Also, to add:

Lack of veterans doesn't mean end game content isn't wanted. It can just as easily mean the lack of that content is directly causing vets to lose interest and disengage. If you look at other games in the area - Destiny, Borderlands, MMORPGs - most of those have large communities and focus around "end game". Warframe is in the roughly the same genre as those, so the playerbase should be there if the content is provided.

I also think it's a mistake if it's assumed that end game is not needed as it's "only relevant to 1% of players" etc. In some cases the existence of end game as a goal to aim for, as something for veterans and content creators to play and generate interest in, is actually more important than whether that content is actually reached by the majority.

If you look at pretty much any activity people get engaged in a lot of us focus on some "end goal" that we might never actually achieve, but having it there to aim for is still very important in getting us involved and keeping us motivated.

You're not incorrect but, again, you folks are missing what the warframe model is. 

These aren't just basic expansions. We've known where the story was heading for a very long time and have only had the experience of playing a portion of it. Therefore, the game is still in its chapters whereas games like Destiny and Borderlands are in books 2 and 3 respectively. Begin those games, level up, then end those games unless unrelated expansions are made that tell side stories most aren't interested in. Next series, new characters similar mechanics but with zeroed out inventory, levels and powers. With Warframe, the tenno and enemies are growing and developing as we go. You keep the existing while finding and utilizing the new. The enemies are developing new ways to attack and we'll eventually have to address this. That's Warframe's model. The only unfortunate side effect is that DE can't develop fast enough for some players.

Quick question: If there were no youtube "how to use" or "how to defeat" videos, do you think most "vets" would be talking about difficulty? I mean, I still remember the famous videos of people struggling to defeat the first eidolan for weeks and even months.

[(PSN)sweatshawp]

11 minutes ago, (PS4)GEN-Son_17 said:

You're not incorrect but, again, you folks are missing what the warframe model is. 

These aren't just basic expansions. We've known where the story was heading for a very long time and have only had the experience of playing a portion of it. Therefore, the game is still in its chapters whereas games like Destiny and Borderlands are in books 2 and 3 respectively. Begin those games, level up, then end those games unless unrelated expansions are made that tell side stories most aren't interested in. Next series, new characters similar mechanics but with zeroed out inventory, levels and powers. With Warframe, the tenno and enemies are growing and developing as we go. You keep the existing while finding and utilizing the new. The enemies are developing new ways to attack and we'll eventually have to address this. That's Warframe's model. The only unfortunate side effect is that DE can't develop fast enough for some players.

Quick question: If there were no youtube "how to use" or "how to defeat" videos, do you think most "vets" would be talking about difficulty? I mean, I still remember the famous videos of people struggling to defeat the first eidolan for weeks and even months.

The thing is given the lore it self we shouldn’t be this overpowered. Weve been dormant for so long. 

Alad V and the corpus have the technology to combat us now if not before given zanukas which can be mass produced the grineer can be seen as a starter level enemy however. The corrupted and the infested at logic are and is just as powerful as us given if the lore was  coherent  there isn’t really any excuse for why we are this strong other then neglect of balance right now

[(PSN)GEN-Son_17]

2 hours ago, (PS4)sweatshawp said:

See how is it an issue for endgame at all or not causaling certain content because a certain group demands it or “whines” someone whining about the game being to hard is in the same boat as someone whining about said game being too easy so it negates itself in that regard but let me ask you if everything is too easy what is there to work for grind for go and excel for? 

Currently nothing. 

Thats the issue and again Therese nothing wrong with setting that standard and allowing that endgame to be present. Like someone said earlier endgame dosent exclude anyone rather set a point for everyone to work towards if they choose. The fact that warframe dosent have endgame or keeps toning it down in hopes of appeasing a casual audience saddens me. and  truth it’s not w smart if we’re going by metrics logic and numbers warframe is going down. Daily at that. What happens when a causal player stops playing ? They are likley to put the game down and forget about it. But what happens when you gain a dedicated player who has nothing to do? The same in many cases appealing to. A more tempory audience while larger right now in terms of longevity isn’t a smart move. And by no means am I saying only listen. To long standing players but neglecting their ideas constantly and not providing for them isn’t bright at all.

 

as far as I’m concerned I hope what your saying is true but I’m tired of hoping until they can follow through I have little faith in what they have planned because they’ve disappointed a lot more recently. But I doubt it and here is exactly what’s going to happen if there is challenge. Bookmark this exact response and watch it come true. 

“Content has a slightly higher difficulty curve then usual” 

“Twitter reddit and forums are in an uproar”

”content is then proceed to be nerfed depsite it being “endgame”. And we don’t have such challenge anymore”

also the treatment of ccs and founders is insane I’ve never seen a community so adamantly against ccs and even founders in extent. Most of the ccs have been playing as long as you if not from start and a plethora of them are founders. I’m not asking to give them special treatment but being that they’ve been here just as long and help promote the game in the long run why such negatively towards them? Search warframe on YouTube right now and as a player looking to get into the game or someone just interested right now at this very moment you see 3-4 videos of content creators rather then praise warframe for the great game it could be. Talk about the declining state of the game. That’s not good PR. in anyway. Not saying to appease the ccs either but when a margin of players agree with said things as well it’s not great. nobody is ungrateful we all care about the game a lot. And telling someone that they are ungrateful for caring is well. Disingenuous. I don’t have to be satisfied with something to care about it. I can be as tough and needed be because I care

Here's why CCs are getting flak:

"Warframe is in a state of decline".

"Warframe is failing"

I do not like what the hard core players and CCs are doing to press their narrative onto new players, interested players, the devs and other gamers in general. It shows weakness and an immaturity, not caring about what they say they love, as long as they get what they want. It's an unfair threat: "gimme what I want or I'm telling everybody that you suck!" Whenever people don't get their way, they result to loud and public bashing and try to disguise it as "constructive criticism". Lastly, click baiting is the cheapest method of gathering views while attempting to plead a personalized case. It doesn't mean that we don't understand nor disagree with what they want but it certainly doesn't help their case when they resort to that low level. 

From my perspective:

Founders, hardcore players and multi year vets, with very high playtime, want a continuing experience via constant endgame elements, balanced damage scaling, increased difficulty, raids and a reward system that properly reflects the challenge...so the process can be eternally repeated. So we're clear, I understand the request and the needs. I'm five years in and totally get it but the consequence is it's hard for DE to create such a long term system like that in the games current state. It'll also be hard to maintain it while still trying to advance the game as they envision it. Resources need to be allocated properly and endgame bandwidth is no different in needs than actually expanding the game DE wants to create. Also, hardcore players are too extreme. I absolutely do not enjoy nor see the point of the extreme, multi hour survival runs on a tileset. To me, it's limited fun for few and is a wasted resource of rewards that could be used for later in the game. I don't care for it but I also understand a value in it and wouldn't mind it in the game as long as the reward isn't game changing and it doesn't effect progression.

Noobs and light casuals, especially younger kids, are way too early in the game and can't even fathom this conversation of difficulty and raids. For them, it's a fun session of blowing things up, seeing the new weapons and warframes in action and enjoying being a near invulnerable death machine. This is also why, for most, the game stops at Hydron. Some are trophy gens that can't handle competition, unrewarded losses and waiting so they demand easier gaming.

Then you have the in between, like me, who would love the same things as the founders but also enjoy the exploration, lore and different styles of play the game offers. I enjoy all aspects of the game and still haven't hit the gameplay ceiling of "nothing to do". Therefore, I'm playing at the pace DE can best deliver content. I take breaks when feeling burnt out and come back whenever I want without issue. I voice my opinion about what I want to see as well but I also understand that, whenever I add onto the gigantic warframe "to do list", resources need to be allocated to handle that.

 

.  

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

The question: "Partners Leaving how does warframe fare?" 

The answer: "DILLIGAF?" 

Many of them were existing in their own little while echo chambers, competing to see who could get the most attention, but when you constantly complain about there being nothing to do, there's the problem that they create a situation where the viewers must ask themselves "why am I still watching them say the same thing week after week". 

Remember that for those people this game is a job. A job that they've been doing for years. Sooner or later they start to get bored. That's normal and not a big deal.