Why don't the Quills trust Warframes? (Spoilers)

[Mints]

I never really put much thought into why Onkko refuses to stand face to face with the Warframes. It's just a requirement to gain access to Operator stuff right? Makes sense that only Operators could get in. But he's not the only character to demand the absence of a Warframe. Little Duck, directly affiliated with the Quills, refuses to speak to Warframes and refers to them as machines. Again, everything she has to offer basically requires an Operator to take advantage of it. Simple ludonarrative dissonance right? Perhaps.

Upon revisiting Chains of Harrow I have begun to wonder if the Warframes have earned some kind of distrust by nature of their being. Palladino, like the Quills, also demands that the player leave their Warframe at the door during our interactions at Iron Wake. She refers to it as a vessel but also as a separate entity. She requests the protection of the player character and our vessel. An odd way to word the request isn't it? For what purpose does she need to acknowledge the Warframe separately from ourselves? I can't help but think about the ending of The Second Dream and the Warframe's autonomous breaking of War.

So what's really going on inside that head? Who, or what, are they hiding from? Thoughts?

Edited August 25, 2019 by Mints
Added tag to title so nobody misses it.

[CxLL]

Transference? Others, namely Lotus and Ordis, being able to use it to communicate with the Operators and register what they are doing?
The Quills know more about this than we do. They are wary for a reason.

[(PSN)OriginalEquinox]

I think the Sacrifice quest cleared this up a bit if I Understood it correctly, the Warframe were previously people and even after they were turned into our puppets their minds were still theirs and were distressed but our operators managed to calm them or keep them calmed while they're linked. I'm sure I butchered this explanation but it's been a while since the quest and my memory's foggy. Basically I'm guessing the Quills know the Warframes were once people (sometimes bad ones iirc) and don't want to interact with them either because of their past or what they've become due to the helminth virus, maybe they see frames as currupt or impure because of it.

Maybe the next cinematic quest will fill the blanks for us

[Mints]

1 minute ago, CxLL said:

Transference? Others, namely Lotus and Ordis, being able to use it to communicate with the Operators and register what they are doing?
The Quills know more about this than we do. They are wary for a reason.

That's true, we don't know how Transference can be hijacked or otherwise subverted. Palladino had no reason to hide from the Lotus during Chains of Harrow but there could be other factors involved. The Queens are apparently capable of manipulating transference and even speaking to us telepathically. It just seems strange that operatives tied with the Unum would be so concerned about the Warframes themselves but not the Man in the Wall that can apparently see through our eyes if The Sacrifice is any indication.

[Corvid]

To be fair, I wouldn't want a heavily armed death machine to come strolling in through my front door.

[CxLL]

5 minutes ago, (PS4)OriginalEquinox said:

the Warframe were previously people

Replay the quest once more. Listen carefully to the dialogue. The Umbra project failed for this reason, so the coming series have not been made this way.
 

6 minutes ago, Mints said:

The Queens are apparently capable of manipulating transference and even speaking to us telepathically.

Precisely! I'm also assuming this is how Lotus is currently being controlled as well. Also we already went into a dark territory - mark thread for spoilers (add [spoilers] in the title).

 

[--PV--Puppet]

13 minutes ago, CxLL said:

Replay the quest once more. Listen carefully to the dialogue. The Umbra project failed for this reason, so the coming series have not been made this way.

Umbra project was only one instance, where they kept memories of the man. All original primes were made out of people.

[Corvid]

18 minutes ago, --PV--Puppet said:

Umbra project was only one instance, where they kept memories of the man. All original primes were made out of people.

This has not been confirmed. All we know is that the first generation of what would become the Warframe project consisted of transformed humans. There is no link between that and the Primes.

[Aluzhun]

When you walk into the infested room as your operator, Helminth exclaims: "The demon is awake? How?"

And let's not forget how Broken War became a thing.

[Drachnyn]

vor einer Stunde schrieb Corvid:

This has not been confirmed. All we know is that the first generation of what would become the Warframe project consisted of transformed humans. There is no link between that and the Primes.

Read the Rhino Prime codex entry and watch the Mirage Prime trailer. Ballas also clearly states that the failed transformed humans got calmed down by the sleeping tenno and that saved the entire project. 

[kingvaldemir]

My guess, in addition what the other already said above me, is it's like a good courtesy or manner? They want to speak with us, us the operator and want to talk face to face, not hiding behind the frames. Having a warframe there is like having a representative there. Though it might be acceptable on some occasions, some other people, especially those that knows the truth about the Tenno, would prefer to face the operator directly.

Just a thought.

Edited August 25, 2019 by kingvaldemir

[Corvid]

31 minutes ago, Drachnyn said:

Read the Rhino Prime codex entry and watch the Mirage Prime trailer. Ballas also clearly states that the failed transformed humans got calmed down by the sleeping tenno and that saved the entire project. 

Neither state that the Primes are all transformed humans. They only show that some of the early successes were.

[YazMatazO]

Clearly Onkko doesn't have early lunches...

[--PV--Puppet]

3 minutes ago, Corvid said:

Neither state that the Primes are all transformed humans. They only show that some of the early successes were.

"Ballas: We cultured the Infestation, conceiving of a hybrid. Transformed, but only just. The 'Helminth' was created, born to yield these new warriors, worthy of battle against you. The great and terrible Hunhow."
"Ballas: We took our greatest, volunteers or not, and polluted them with these cultured reagents. They transformed. They became Infested..."
"Ballas: The Warframes... All of them... failures.
Ballas: Surprised? They turned on us, just as you did. And so we had no choice but to commit them to grave.
Ballas: This is all you know, Hunhow, but there is a hidden half, a secret, that lies within a place forbidden to you and your kind. I speak of the Void."
"Ballas: Distorted by vague horrors, we kept the Zariman survivors within a secret Reservoir. They were the missing half. Transference-linked: the Warframes, the body - and they, the mind."

[(PSN)Kamil-the-KamiKa]

to answer the OP, i think it is just a manners thing. I guess it is deemed respectful or a sign of good will/trust if the tenno speak in their true form and lets not forget the warframes are infested mashed into a metal suit, who knows what funky smell they give off lmao

 

51 minutes ago, Corvid said:

Neither state that the Primes are all transformed humans. They only show that some of the early successes were.

it is heavily implied warframes are infested people. Umbra was just the special case because he got to keep his memory. Even the upcomming echoes of umbra allow us to inject memories into the infested people of the frames, if they were just goo or whatever injecting memories would have no effect.

Edited August 25, 2019 by (PS4)Kamil-the-KamiKa

[0_The_F00l]

It doesn't make sense now, but what if there is a an enemy in the works that can control Warframes. 

Also the very fact that Warframes are wmd it would make sense to not negotiate or talk shop in the presence of one. 

I also have this nagging sensation each time I visit onkko, the cave looks separate from the rest of cetus, like it doesn't exist in cetus but elsewhere. 

Especially the fact that onkko is less than 10 seconds away from Saya and she hasn't been able to find him, makes me think they are in a place (plane) only accessible by the void touched 

Edited August 25, 2019 by 0_The_F00l

[AuroraSonicBoom]

Frames can be hijacked and used as listening device. That's reason enough for me.

[Marine027]

vor 3 Minuten schrieb 0_The_F00l:

It doesn't make sense now, but what if there is a an enemy in the works that can control Warframes. 

Also the very fact that Warframes are wmd it would make sense to not negotiate or talk shop in the presence of one. 

I also have this nagging sensation each time I visit onkko, the cave looks separate from the rest of cetus, like it doesn't exist in cetus but elsewhere. 

Especially the fact that onkko is less than 10 seconds away from Saya and she hasn't been able to find him, makes me think they are in a place (plane) only accessible by the void touched 

Well, remember Patient Zero, Alad V was able to control a Mesa, same for his Collar in his Mutalist fight, the Spectres on the Juncitons also could be called controled by someone else or having free will i hope for still, while the Specters we build ourself antoher story on its own also.

[Zergem]

Stalker and his acolytes exist.

[CxLL]

@--PV--Puppet + @(PS4)Kamil-the-KamiKa Corvid's point still stands.
Something came from the Void. It was aggressive but controllable through transference.
Theory-wise, that something was tested for utility. Its potential was destruction. It was then applied to soldiers in order to give this bioweapon intelligence. It consumed said soldiers and merged them into a hive mind. Similar to Jordas, they retain some self-recollection. The more minds, the higher the collective intelligence. Umbra is a special case because that series was the turning point in the creative scientific effort which lead the orokin into a different direction.
The filling of the freshest of pies is infestation. Having no self-conscience makes it easily controlled through transference.
On another note, consider sentients. They seem very much like a strain of infestation, and its behaviour seems to be very similar to the raw variety we see around the isolated nooks of the solar system. What Alad V is doing somewhat proves it - he can still control them, as the corpus parts of them are loyal to him. In some way.

On the other hand, this discussion is far away from the topic so that's it from me. The question was excellent btw. Not sure a lot of people speculate or even think in that direction. Thank you for letting my mind run freely for a bit, @Mints! I love the superficial/vague access to lore we have in warframe. Lets a lot of very different ideas fit the shape of its holes. It would be amazing if it was left like that entirely. Not clearly connecting the dots makes everyone happy as everyone's theories can still be possible.

[Corvid]

1 hour ago, --PV--Puppet said:

"Ballas: We cultured the Infestation, conceiving of a hybrid. Transformed, but only just. The 'Helminth' was created, born to yield these new warriors, worthy of battle against you. The great and terrible Hunhow."
"Ballas: We took our greatest, volunteers or not, and polluted them with these cultured reagents. They transformed. They became Infested..."
"Ballas: The Warframes... All of them... failures.
Ballas: Surprised? They turned on us, just as you did. And so we had no choice but to commit them to grave.
Ballas: This is all you know, Hunhow, but there is a hidden half, a secret, that lies within a place forbidden to you and your kind. I speak of the Void."
"Ballas: Distorted by vague horrors, we kept the Zariman survivors within a secret Reservoir. They were the missing half. Transference-linked: the Warframes, the body - and they, the mind."

Again, all this says is that the first generation of frames were Helminthed humans. It makes no connection to the Primes.

For goodness' sake, we don't even know that the Primes were the first Warframes. It's just a long-held assumption based on one interpretation of their description.

All we know is this: The first generation of frames were Infested humans. The project was a failure until the Zariman children were brought in as a stabilising influence. Prime Warframes were used during the Old War, and make use of more advanced Orokin tech in their construction. Normal Warframes were also used during the Old War, most notably (though not exclusively) at its tail end.

There is no explicit lore that states that Primes were the first frames, or even that any of the first generation Warframes were made into Primes.

[evilChair]

What others said: transference can potentially be jacked -- Lotus power-surged the starter-frame in Vor's Prize, Alad controlled an infested Mesa, TWW had the Elder Queen ("Maggot"?) use transference to make a direct psychic attack on the Operator, Umbra is... in a constant flashback that make him kill things.

While the Quills etc have a genuine reason to be worried about Warframes going ham on everything, we still have Little Duck who says "Lose the machine" which implies that there's some kind of religious dogma about the Warframes and that part of her deal with Onkko is that she does the same, even if she doesn't give a crap.

The Quills are suspicious and I wouldn't really trust them. You give them sentient cores (free will engines?), Little Duck passes the toroids (probably a sentient core offshoot+spider engine) on to them, they can see into all possible futures, the Unum has something to do with Wally (inferred from kuva/void mutually annihilating)... Everything adds up to the Quills having suspicious motivations, and that our best allies are Ordis, Teshin, Palladino, and whatever is left of Margulis in that helmet. Perhaps also Worm, if things get really bad. Cephalon Samodeus might play some kind of role later on, since the reroll mechanic implies that he's something of a Kuva addict and that it (going out on a limb here) prevents cephalons from decaying.

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

5 hours ago, Mints said:

I never really put much thought into why Onkko refuses to stand face to face with the Warframes. It's just a requirement to gain access to Operator stuff right? Makes sense that only Operators could get in. But he's not the only character to demand the absence of a Warframe. Little Duck, directly affiliated with the Quills, refuses to speak to Warframes and refers to them as machines. Again, everything she has to offer basically requires an Operator to take advantage of it. Simple ludonarrative dissonance right? Perhaps.

Upon revisiting Chains of Harrow I have begun to wonder if the Warframes have earned some kind of distrust by nature of their being. Palladino, like the Quills, also demands that the player leave their Warframe at the door during our interactions at Iron Wake. She refers to it as a vessel but also as a separate entity. She requests the protection of the player character and our vessel. An odd way to word the request isn't it? For what purpose does she need to acknowledge the Warframe separately from ourselves? I can't help but think about the ending of The Second Dream and the Warframe's autonomous breaking of War.

So what's really going on inside that head? Who, or what, are they hiding from? Thoughts?

Considering the fact that Onkko talks about our futures in the past tense, looks at the myriad possibilities stemming from each possible instant, and tries to keep track of it all.... Having multiple warframes of each type, each with a future Destiny, but collectively making the warframes future a big mess, it makes sense to deal with the Principal so that he can focus. That's our operator. 

Just seeing a warframe would probably reduce him into a quivering puddle, and give him terrible migraines for weeks. 

 

Little Duck, she hates machines. She's unmodified and supposedly has all of her parts. Why shouldn't she reject the warframes as just another form of the augmentation that she loathes? 

[JackHargreav]

49 minutes ago, Corvid said:

Again, all this says is that the first generation of frames were Helminthed humans.

Ballas: The Warframes... All of them...

[Sloan441]

6 hours ago, Corvid said:

To be fair, I wouldn't want a heavily armed death machine to come strolling in through my front door.

An uncontrolled warframe is extremely dangerous. The RPC makes this pretty clear. They don't necessary need to be running amok either. The Mesa quest being a case in point. 

LIttle Duck is just attitude. If I'd had the option to backhand her across the room, it would have happened. Her lot is asking the tenno for help. We don't have to give it. We don't need them, they need us. Now, if they want an exchange of confidence after they show their true faces, sure, fine. Just ask. You don't demand--especially Little Duck. 

Onkko...that's getting into an area we have very little information on. He's definitely privy to a lot of information regarding both tenno and warframes. At a guess, he wants to deal with the operator, since that's who you're really dealing with when talking at warframes. If you want any sort of give and take, then the tenno needs to be actually present. I suspect we may find out more with PoD.