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Rng, Fix It Or Get Rid Of It. + Trading System


Operator_of_the_Lotus
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So I have been playing warframe since closed beta, I have put my time effort and money into this game I love it it's fun ... or more so it was fun.

The RNG system is flat out broken, it jsut won't work for this game any more, it's getting larger and larger each up date, and with no trading system this once great game has turned in to a grinding CHORE, it is nothing more now that running the same mission over and over again pray that the RNG gods do not crap all over you.

 

I say this as a kind warning for DE ...fix the RNG or get rid of it completly or you are going to start losing players.

war frame is great fun when you don't want to get something. the void missions are broken, boss farming broken, stalker broken.

 

This game NEEDS and mean NEEDS a trading system, it is absolut bull S#&$ that friends and clan mates can not trade items,parts,prints or any thing, it is all one sided NO need for team game play or an economy.

DE your players have called out and spoken out on the fourms even your own design council has told you to impliment a new system to replace the RNG, but it seems you sold your soul to it.

And I know I know, if a trading system gets put in you will lose money on people buying your crap, SO WHAT, you will draw in more players and come up with new ways to make money rather than forcing us to grind.

 

DE said in their live stream that they did not want war frame to be a grind...well guess waht, you failed DE, that's all this game is any more... A grind.

Edited by CmdrVixen
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While I can't claim to have been around anywhere near as long and have only invested a fraction of the time I'll add that there has to be a clear display of progression towards your target goal. Some people get lucky, others fall foal of runs of bad luck miles and miles long and they get nothing to show for it.

 

Maybe once I've been hunting for Stalker's Hate for a few months I'll get to the point where I hate the RNG more I than I hate waiting for buses.

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I agree that a trading system, one that benefits only to members of the same clan, and as long as a new player CAN'T HAVE all the Prime frames and weapons and such, would benefit the players. But to simply implement a way for ANY PLAYER to trade with ANY PLAYER without restrictions would create tons more of problems than solutions. And it's not only about players not buying platinum as they are now. Bots would appear, people selling items and such for real money... all the things that can send a very good game as this one straight to hell. That is why they must plan very carefully if to implement it and, if they are going to, how to avoid those things. That is not easy.

 

Also, the farming and so are not broken as you say. It's hard to get rare things, but that is the point. You don't get gold the first day you go to a gold mine. You need to go as deep as you can and keep searching until you find it. Maybe you will find good things along the way until then. For example, When Void just came in, I WANTED to get the Reaper Prime. I was going to Void only to get it. It took me around 2-3 weeks to finally complete it. But I also got the Frost Prime, lots of mods and credits, I ranked up a lot of weapons... This game is not for people that want something and they get it, but for those that enjoy the game itself. I am trying now to get the Mag Prime, but to this day I only have the Systems. Am I frustrated? No. I have Paris Prime, 2/3 of Bronco prime, 1 part of Fang, lots of mods to fuse, credits to spend... and the best of all, I got all that with my clanmates. That's the real fun.

 

Patience, my friend. You will get the things you are looking for in it's due time. Until that, simply enjoy killing Greeners, Corpus and Infected. ;)

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1 - the dangerous territory of implementing a non perfect trading system will kill Warframe a lot faster than reward issues will. trading is the most finicky, dangerous thing any game can have. if it's not done flawlessly, it can (and with  pecedence of thousands of games in the past) and will kill any game. it's a very delicate issue. 

 

2 - the RNG is also a delicate system. in order for the game to have longevity (and any enjoyment at all), it must require a fair amount of time to be input.

now, i'm not saying that the RNG is perfect, it certainly isn't, but finding that 'correct' balance is very difficult. maybe we'll get it right, maybe we won't. but there's two sides to it, Digital Extremes wants to keep players around for many hours, players want to enjoy every moment of a game. with random items, it starts to get complicated. 

 

that being said, the basic boundaries i've been mentioning for the RNG would help to alleviate the most obscure experiences in Warframe. 100% random is actually too random, and becomes broken and biased for some people. basic boundaries to keep experiences staying within a certain range keeps some players from seeing something very different from what Digital Extremes sees in house. there will still be varying experiences, but the idea is to avoid those outliers of say, a player that runs a Void mission 200 times and still hasn't gotten the item they were looking for. 

 

edit:

 

 

-snip-

that was beautifully put(and i'd've recruited you just now except you mentioned already being in a Clan :[).

it's important for a player to enjoy playing a game along the way, not just the end. 

if the means does not appeal to you, unfortunately, neither will the end. 

there are some issues with aspects of Warframe, but it's also partly due to people wanting things too much. there's a game to enjoy, not just items to have. 

having shiny stuff is cool too, but there's far more than that. and if you only play a game to get stuff, you're missing out on the majority of the game itself. 

 

 

 

on a side note, overall, i generally feel RNG in Warframe to be relatively fair. getting one item in particular can be difficult if you want it very quickly, but this is majorly due to just how much content there is. getting one specific mod can take some time due to how many others exist. but this isn't to say the other mods you don't currently want aren't also good, so it's not like you're wasting your time, persay. 

Edited by taiiat
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that was beautifully put(and i'd've recruited you just now except you mentioned already being in a Clan :[).

it's important for a player to enjoy playing a game along the way, not just the end. 

if the means does not appeal to you, unfortunately, neither will the end. 

there are some issues with aspects of Warframe, but it's also partly due to people wanting things too much. there's a game to enjoy, not just items to have. 

having shiny stuff is cool too, but there's far more than that. and if you only play a game to get stuff, you're missing out on the majority of the game itself. 

 

 

Hehe, thanks. I appreciate it. ^^

 

 

on a side note, overall, i generally feel RNG in Warframe to be relatively fair. getting one item in particular can be difficult if you want it very quickly, but this is majorly due to just how much content there is. getting one specific mod can take some time due to how many others exist. but this isn't to say the other mods you don't currently want aren't also good, so it's not like you're wasting your time, persay. 

 

Exactly, that's the point. You may want a specific item and try to get it, but most of all the things you get on the way is what makes your warframe stronger. Every new player may want the Thunderbolt mod for his/her bow, but if you don't have Serration, elemental damage, defense penetration... at some point it becomes usless.

Edited by Hawner
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Well said responses from everyone.

I agree that opening the game up to traders would immediately open the game up every gold farming, spam botting, fun crushing problem that most other games suffer. Look at Diablo 3, they implemented two separate auction houses in order to try and allow easy trading and cull the threat of gold farmers. But it didn't help at all. The game play changes required to make the Auction House, demolished most of the fun in the game. And the Gold Farmers saturated the market with so much ill-gotten gold that the Auction House was ruined too. I'd prefer not to have to farm up 3 Billion credits for someone else to find a Latron Reciever on my behalf. (And yes I know Blizz is shutting the D3 AH down, thank god)

 

Yes that is a different game, but the loot mechanics are similar, and I'm sure DE paid very close attention to D3. A possible middle ground could be as Hawner mentioned, one that only benefits guild members. But then that would just have gold farmers constantly swapping clans, and become a burden that way. Maybe if there was a 2-3 week waiting period between when you join a clan, and when you can trade, that would curb a lot gold farmers abilities to make a quick buck and turn their attention elsewhere without bothering longstanding Guild members.

 

Mainly though, I like having the RNG settings optimized for just individuals. If the loot tables are limited to just what YOU can get, you can ALWAYS get a reward from a mission. Because if you don't need it, you sell it, and it affects no one else. If people can trade, suddenly they have to adjust the loot tables to apply to EVERYONES chances. So now they can't afford to let drops happen even half as much, or the market floods. Wave goodbye to guaranteed mission rewards. So long Forma Alerts. Say hello to just grinding Credits. Woo.

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Yes that is a different game, but the loot mechanics are similar, and I'm sure DE paid very close attention to D3. A possible middle ground could be as Hawner mentioned, one that only benefits guild members. But then that would just have gold farmers constantly swapping clans, and become a burden that way. Maybe if there was a 2-3 week waiting period between when you join a clan, and when you can trade, that would curb a lot gold farmers abilities to make a quick buck and turn their attention elsewhere without bothering longstanding Guild members.

 

 

 

My idea about the trading is a little more complex than that. As you said, to have to wait a certain time before been able to trade items would help A LOT, but I though of something that my friends find interesting.

You know that actually there a a handfull of weapons that can only be bought when you reach certain rank, right? That can also be used to limit even more the trades. I'll explain.

Let's say you are new in the game and want the Frost Prime because you have seen people use it and you just love it. With a normal trade system you could just buy it to anyone that has the parts from so many time he/she went there and you get it. That would not be fair. But if the parts of the Frost Prime had a TRADE RANK things would be diferent. Let's say these parts have a 4 trade rank. That means you can not trade those items, be it selling or buying, until both players are, at least, Rank 4. You can get Void keys right from the beginning, so you can perfectly complete the Frost Prime without resorting to the trade. This would be an "emergency" way of completing it. If you start playing now you will play for quite some time before you reach Rank 4, maybe you will go to Void a lot. I think that is enough time for a player to get it. If Lady Luck has not been merciful, then you can resort to a trade with a clanmate to complete it.

So, it means that players would be able to trade parts of weapons, frames and such with their clanmates AS A LAST RESORT in case they can't complete any of them after too many rides to Void and other places. Of course, the harder to get the higher the Rank both players must have to trade.

For materials... I don't know how it can be. Maybe only the high officials of the Clan can give/sell them?

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My idea about the trading is a little more complex than that. As you said, to have to wait a certain time before been able to trade items would help A LOT, but I though of something that my friends find interesting.

You know that actually there a a handfull of weapons that can only be bought when you reach certain rank, right? That can also be used to limit even more the trades. I'll explain.

Let's say you are new in the game and want the Frost Prime because you have seen people use it and you just love it. With a normal trade system you could just buy it to anyone that has the parts from so many time he/she went there and you get it. That would not be fair. But if the parts of the Frost Prime had a TRADE RANK things would be diferent. Let's say these parts have a 4 trade rank. That means you can not trade those items, be it selling or buying, until both players are, at least, Rank 4. You can get Void keys right from the beginning, so you can perfectly complete the Frost Prime without resorting to the trade. This would be an "emergency" way of completing it. If you start playing now you will play for quite some time before you reach Rank 4, maybe you will go to Void a lot. I think that is enough time for a player to get it. If Lady Luck has not been merciful, then you can resort to a trade with a clanmate to complete it.

So, it means that players would be able to trade parts of weapons, frames and such with their clanmates AS A LAST RESORT in case they can't complete any of them after too many rides to Void and other places. Of course, the harder to get the higher the Rank both players must have to trade.

For materials... I don't know how it can be. Maybe only the high officials of the Clan can give/sell them?

That's not a bad idea Hawner. Although I think having "trading" levels would be yet another confusing barrier to understanding this game, for new players. It would have its advantages.

 

As far as materials, DE currently has them locked down so that you can't even sell them as an individual. Mats aren't hard to find though. And you can currently buy them from DE if you absolutely must have them. Letting people trade would take an income stream away from DE, which really isn't in anyone's best interest. Also it would promote people to simply grind mats and become a "Guild Commodities Trader", which would be a pretty lame thing to have happen.

 

I'd say to just keep trading to item parts, and possibly mods.

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Sadly, adding trading and losing the RNG makes this game an instant gratification playground. People would play for a few weeks, receive everything, and be gone. This model would not be able to be sustained. There is a fine line between grind and excessive. Currently, I think the line is ok, even with the new additions to 10.0

 

However, I do not believe they should stuff any more items into the current void model. They also should implement some type of a trade in system. Get your piece, great. Didn't get the piece, trade it in for a token. 3 tokens from the same void mission and tier gets you a free key for that mission. At least you would get something out of it, even if it is just another chance. I am not a fan of trading tokens for the actual item, however. All that means is you put a time limit on the life of the game. Once the maximum number of runs is reached for all items trade value, people stop playing.

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Sadly, adding trading and losing the RNG makes this game an instant gratification playground. People would play for a few weeks, receive everything, and be gone. This model would not be able to be sustained. There is a fine line between grind and excessive. Currently, I think the line is ok, even with the new additions to 10.0

 

However, I do not believe they should stuff any more items into the current void model. They also should implement some type of a trade in system. Get your piece, great. Didn't get the piece, trade it in for a token. 3 tokens from the same void mission and tier gets you a free key for that mission. At least you would get something out of it, even if it is just another chance. I am not a fan of trading tokens for the actual item, however. All that means is you put a time limit on the life of the game. Once the maximum number of runs is reached for all items trade value, people stop playing.

You can still add the trading, just readjust the RNG to have a stable Table & System. And like MSD3000 was saying, just keep it to items and mods. I also agree that there should be a trade rank within clans. It not only allows another option for obtaining certain parts for frames and other items, such as Formas, but it also alleviates the boredom & tediousness of having to grind just to get a certain part.

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How about that.

If youre in clan and you go to void, you get 24380489384th reaper handle.

Now you can choose, send it to clan vault or keep it to urself.

Then it can be distributed to clan members for either materials or for free. 

Sure it can be abused by rmt but you could as well hire some ppl to carry you through voids and still get that stuff. At least this system will keep honest clans clean.

 

Or each void will drop reward box with random rewards, you can open it or use it as token to get specific thing. Its gambling but also removes complete reliance on rng.

Edited by Davoodoo
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As far as materials, DE currently has them locked down so that you can't even sell them as an individual. Mats aren't hard to find though. And you can currently buy them from DE if you absolutely must have them. Letting people trade would take an income stream away from DE, which really isn't in anyone's best interest. Also it would promote people to simply grind mats and become a "Guild Commodities Trader", which would be a pretty lame thing to have happen.

 

I'd say to just keep trading to item parts, and possibly mods.

 

 

I agree. Mats are not so hard to get as some Mods and Parts are. Although, sometimes you could just kill somebody to get 40 %$%&" plastids that don't want to drop. XD

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How about making it so that insteat of 1-3 really deep drop tables (with like 2% chance of getting what you actually want), there are a larger number of much shallower drop tables, similar to how resources drop. If I need Poly Bundles, there are three planets that drop them, so I go run missions on those planets, and I get poly bundles. Even for a rare resource, you can average about 1 drop per mission without much luck. For mods, on the other hand, you option is "figure out which faction drops them most often, then go f*** yourself." Chances are the mod you want only has a 2% drop rate at best wherever your going to try and farm it, which is a terrible droprate for the ammount of time you have to put in for each mission.

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For mods, on the other hand, you option is "figure out which faction drops them most often, then go f*** yourself." Chances are the mod you want only has a 2% drop rate at best wherever your going to try and farm it, which is a terrible droprate for the ammount of time you have to put in for each mission.

 

The difference between mats and mods is that you need TONS of them to build weapons, items and such; while on the other hand, you only need 1 unit of a mod to not to need to look for it again... ever.

So, it makes sense that they are so hard to get. ^^

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Yeah, but it can be a huge pain not getting an essential mod because it never has a higher than 2% drop rate. I'm not saying mods should drop like candy, I'm saying the mod drops should be less random. For example, instead of having the same 50 mods in the same drop table across 20 missions, there could be 4-5 drop tables across 5-4 missions each, with only 10-15 mods in each drop table. That way, if I want a specific mod, I can run a specific mission that has a 7-10% chance of dropping it, instead of being stuck running a mission that has a 2% drop rate.

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