Please Fix Eidolon Projectile Hitboxes While Spawning

[Aznvasions]

It has been 4 months, and this still has not been fixed. Moving this post from the hotfix/update megathread to its own bug thread here.

On 2019-07-24 at 5:17 PM, Aznvasions said:

Please fix the projectile hitbox of Eidolon limbs while they are spawning. They are still dysfunctional as of this update, and have been "missing" ever since PoE remaster on Update 24.6.0 on April 4, 2019. Because of this bug, only hitscan weapons can hit limbs before it reaches the shore. Please figure out what happened to the hitbox, because this makes many weapons not viable for hunting.

Below is a video of Lanka, which is a projectile weapon, being used to shoot the spawning limbs after the shield is taken down. The first video is from February, where you can see the hitbox works as normal. The second video demonstrates the "missing" hitbox that has been like that ever since PoE remaster April 4, 2019. The second video is from April 15, 2019. This same issue applies for all projectile weapons, with the exception of Catchmoon for whatever reason. Arca Plasmor can't hit it, despite being a nearly identical projectile.

Euphona Prime, Buzlok, Castanas, Artemis Bow, Lanka, Arca Plasmor, Lenz, Exalted Blade, Tombfinger, Exodia Contagion, Glaives, which are all projectile weapons, have all been tested and proven to be unable to hit these limbs in the manner shown in the second video.

This issue has already been brought up in previous updates, as well as had its own bug thread but was not addressed.

This is how the hitbox used to work:

This is the missing hitbox we have now:

 

Old Thread:

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Edited August 28, 2019 by Aznvasions
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[saghzs]

Make Lanka great again.

[LegendaryFender]

Lanka returns when >.>

[(PSN)Smooth81Criminal]

If I'm understanding this right. The request is to put in a fix so you can shoot limbs before the eidolon reaches the shore. Does that mean there is no issue after it starts roaming the plains? If that's the case, I dont think DE meant to have an eidolon lose its shield so quickly and the loss of limbs before it even steps foot on land. Not trying to be offensive in anyway but I doubt DE is going to implement a fix for the benefit on an exploit.

[Aznvasions]

All hitscan weapons have been and are still able to break the limb while it’s still in the water and the shield drops. They also went from vulnerable in water, to invincible, and then DE specifically reverted it so that they are vulnerable again. At this point, there is a precedent, and they have not spoken otherwise.

 

The only thing out of the ordinary, is that at some point in time (Update 24.6.0), the ability of projectile weapons to hit the spawning limb was removed for no apparent reason or any mention in patch notes. Again, all hit scan weapons like Rubico and Pandero, etc can still hit these limbs immediately while it’s spawning.

Edited August 28, 2019 by Aznvasions

[(PSN)Smooth81Criminal]

12 minutes ago, Aznvasions said:

All hitscan weapons have been and are still able to break the limb while it’s still in the water and the shield drops. They also went from vulnerable in water, to invincible, and then DE specifically reverted it so that they are vulnerable again. At this point, there is a precedent, and they have not spoken otherwise.

 

The only thing out of the ordinary, is that at some point in time (Update 24.6.0), the ability of projectile weapons to hit the spawning limb was removed for no apparent reason or any mention in patch notes. Again, all hit scan weapons like Rubico and Pandero, etc can still hit these limbs immediately while it’s spawning.

Like I said before, this is an exploit. If it's not working anymore, either intentional or not. I just don't see them implementing a fix for it. Making eidolons vulnerable in the water does not necessarily mean they were meant to be so easily taken down at spawn. It just means they allow them to be hit.

[Aznvasions]

My question then would come down to, why did they specifically revert the eidolon invincibility while it’s spawning if they didn’t want it’s limbs broken early? 

 

There was a hotfix specifically to revert the change made from vulnerable to invulnerable, just so that they would be vulnerable again while spawning.

[(PSN)Smooth81Criminal]

13 minutes ago, Aznvasions said:

My question then would come down to, why did they specifically revert the eidolon invincibility while it’s spawning if they didn’t want it’s limbs broken early? 

 

There was a hotfix specifically to revert the change made from vulnerable to invulnerable, just so that they would be vulnerable again while spawning.

To give an early start on damage, not to all out kill. Not sure of your rank or how long youve played but they actually nerfed Chroma for this same reason. He was too strong  and DE specially mentioned that Eidolon missions were never meant to be a one shot and done. Mind you that nerf failed somewhat miserably when it comes to his power on them and this was also prior to the whole VS take down. But as you may have noticed, the search for exploits doesnt appear to end and people always find a way. Honestly it wouldn't surprise me if sometime down the line there was another nerf to help eidolon survivability or even a buff to the eidolon themselves

[Aznvasions]

The request for the invincibility reversion and supplied evidence was done by the 5-6x community. So I’m sure that DE knew what kind of playerbase they were dealing with when they reviewed the invincibility bug. The vast majority of Eidolon bug reports and subsequent fixes in general are submitted by the 5-6x community.

 

I’ve seen eidolons from their start all the way back from late 2017. At this point, I’m aware of DEs inconsistencies and spaghetti problems affecting plains and eidolons when they touch something else. But this is one of the longer standing bugs that many fellow hunters I’ve spoken to wish was reverted.

 

It did not slow down whether 5x or 6x was achievable at all in any way whatsoever. What it did do was reduce the amount of viable weapons, which is exactly what not only fellow hunters, but even the rest of the community in general dislike about eidolons.

 

What has been an increasing concern are the number of bugs/bug fixes occurring in plains that are never listed in patch notes. A lot of these seem to be very “behind the scene” changes, for whatever reason they choose to not be open about it.

Edited August 29, 2019 by Aznvasions
Additional info

[(PSN)Smooth81Criminal]

22 minutes ago, Aznvasions said:

The request for the invincibility reversion and supplied evidence was done by the 5-6x community. So I’m sure that DE knew what kind of playerbase they were dealing with when they reviewed the invincibility bug. The vast majority of Eidolon bug fixes in general are submitted by the 5-6x community.

 

I’ve seen eidolons from their start all the way back from late 2017. At this point, I’m aware of DEs inconsistencies and spaghetti problems affecting plains and eidolons when they touch something else. But this is one of the longer standing bugs that many fellow hunters I’ve spoken to wish was reverted.

 

It did not slow down whether 5x or 6x was achievable at all in any way whatsoever. What it did do was reduce the amount of viable weapons, which is exactly what not only fellow hunters, but even the rest of the community in general dislike about eidolons.

 

What has been an increasing concern are the number of bugs/bug fixes occurring in plains that are never listed in patch notes. A lot of these seem to be very “behind the scene” changes, for whatever reason they choose to not be open about it.

So back to my original question to you. Is it just before the eidolon touches land that the weapons do not work? Or is it all time? Personally I have never tried to take down a limb in the water, only on land and I haven't had any issues making hits (I use Artemis bow).

If DE made the change to make eidolons invulnerable then changed to make them vulnerable again, you could chalk that up to community back lash. Guaranteed they are aware of the exploits in these hunts but that doesn't mean they are ok with it. They just tolerate them for community retention.

To you're point, there has been an increase of things not working the way they used to, and it's very well possible that it's due to DE making minor changes in the hopes of it not being as imoactful and this may very well be one of them. (Pure conjecture on my part, not saying yay or nay to it).

If the fix you're asking for is projectile fire in all places besides spawn, then yes it needs a fix for the sake of the weapons. If you're asking just because you can't break a limb at spawn, you're asking for a fix on an exploit. Im not trying to be a downer on anyone's game play what so ever. All I am doing is stating a fact. If you're request is the latter, whether intentional on DE's part or not, the fact is that just because DE tolerates these exploits and they "accidentally" break it doesn't mean they will waste the resources to fix it.

[LegendaryFender]

4 hours ago, (PS4)Smooth81Criminal said:

So back to my original question to you. Is it just before the eidolon touches land that the weapons do not work? Or is it all time? Personally I have never tried to take down a limb in the water, only on land and I haven't had any issues making hits (I use Artemis bow).

If DE made the change to make eidolons invulnerable then changed to make them vulnerable again, you could chalk that up to community back lash. Guaranteed they are aware of the exploits in these hunts but that doesn't mean they are ok with it. They just tolerate them for community retention.

To you're point, there has been an increase of things not working the way they used to, and it's very well possible that it's due to DE making minor changes in the hopes of it not being as imoactful and this may very well be one of them. (Pure conjecture on my part, not saying yay or nay to it).

If the fix you're asking for is projectile fire in all places besides spawn, then yes it needs a fix for the sake of the weapons. If you're asking just because you can't break a limb at spawn, you're asking for a fix on an exploit. Im not trying to be a downer on anyone's game play what so ever. All I am doing is stating a fact. If you're request is the latter, whether intentional on DE's part or not, the fact is that just because DE tolerates these exploits and they "accidentally" break it doesn't mean they will waste the resources to fix it.

We are asking for the fix of projectile weapons , hit scans weapons can still shoot those limbs, which means its not an exploit. But the bug makes projectile weapons not viable for the hunt. I dont think its really that hard to understand.

[(PSN)Smooth81Criminal]

3 hours ago, KriZoVet said:

We are asking for the fix of projectile weapons , hit scans weapons can still shoot those limbs, which means its not an exploit. But the bug makes projectile weapons not viable for the hunt. I dont think its really that hard to understand.

 

13 hours ago, Aznvasions said:

Please fix the projectile hitbox of Eidolon limbs while they are spawning.

This is why i was asking for the clarification. If it's everywhere then yes, it needs to be addressed. But if particularly just here then it's not about the projectile weapons, it's about the area of when they can be used which is technically part of an exploit because your hope is to destroy limbs as the eidolon is spawning which is not game intended. Instead of telling me it's not that hard to understand, maybe read everything first?

[Aznvasions]

Nah it’s just a difference of opinion at this point. We both understand, he’s just on an opposite side of the river. I don’t consider it an exploit, but he does, which is fine. We are allowed to have our own opinions.

I just wish DE actually weighed in on this, as it’s nowhere near the first time this has been brought up.

Edited August 29, 2019 by Aznvasions

[(PSN)Smooth81Criminal]

^^ wholeheartedly agree

[Xtra_Step]

4 hours ago, (PS4)Smooth81Criminal said:

 

This is why i was asking for the clarification. If it's everywhere then yes, it needs to be addressed. But if particularly just here then it's not about the projectile weapons, it's about the area of when they can be used which is technically part of an exploit because your hope is to destroy limbs as the eidolon is spawning which is not game intended. Instead of telling me it's not that hard to understand, maybe read everything first?

See, the thing is, hitscan based weapons like the Rubico and such can still destroy the limbs when the eidolon is on water; only the projectile based ones, like the Lanka don't work anymore. So it's not consistent, and therefore needs a fix.

If it's intended, which seems so cause they reverted the invulnerability, then all weapons should work.

If it's not intended, no weapon should work.

Some working and some not working isn't how this is supposed to happen.
And on that, if they wan't to change it so it doesn't work, it should be listed in the patch notes at least.

[(PSN)Smooth81Criminal]

4 minutes ago, Xtra_Step said:

See, the thing is, hitscan based weapons like the Rubico and such can still destroy the limbs when the eidolon is on water; only the projectile based ones, like the Lanka don't work anymore. So it's not consistent, and therefore needs a fix.

If it's intended, which seems so cause they reverted the invulnerability, then all weapons should work.

If it's not intended, no weapon should work.

Some working and some not working isn't how this is supposed to happen.
And on that, if they wan't to change it so it doesn't work, it should be listed in the patch notes at least.

That's true

Do the hit boxes adjust when the Eidolon reaches land? 

My point was that the ability to one shot shields and limbs at spawn is an aspect of the already found exploit in destroying eidolons in one shot. That aspect appears to have broken in some way where projectile weapons are no longer useful while the eidolon is at spawn. And yes, that is an inconsistency that needs to be addressed in some way. Either by what the OP proposes, to adjust the hit boxes so projectile weapons work again, or by fixing it so that no weapons work there.

My thought was, because this was an aspect of the exploit, and the weapons appear to work on land (still not sure if that is the case here or not), that DE probably would not fix the hit boxes at spawn for projectiles because in the long run of the fight, they still work on land (just my guess, again, i dont really know this part). I mean, they may.. cant really read the Dev's minds here. But if i were to guess, it may be thought of as a small fix (though seemingly unintentional) to a portion of the overall exploit.

But I am in full agreement after reading your post that an adjustment does need to be made. Where as if they do not fix the hit boxes for projectile weapons at spawn, they should remove all weapons from use there. That is how i think DE is likely to approach it 

[Aznvasions]

Although taking shields out and limbs during spawn may be an exploit to some people, I do not consider, nor see how, the ability to take out shields, and by extension limbs in a single shot in the general scenario of the fight overall, outside of the spawning scenario, to be an exploit.

Void Strike is working as intended. They would have to literally remove it to stop 6x3, as capping the currently uncapped maximum charge multiplier to even 3x multiplier only is still enough to enable 6x3. 5x3 can and has been done without any Void Strike present on any member of the team. Unairu Wisps are currently working as intended, despite being extremely clunky. I can’t see them nerfing wisps.

They have removed the effect of every single ability that directly buffs operators. However, Volt shields remain. Not only are Volt shields clearly visible in the aspect of the fight as a buff source, but it was also the first amp buff source and also the last standing one. There is no way DE is not aware of the usage of volt to buff amp damage in fights. But then again, it is actually working as intended. As you can see, they removed effects of every ability that interacts with the operator, but volt shields don’t interact with the operator. They buff bullets and projectiles that pass through them. It is for this reason that volts ability to buff amps remains untouched, as he does not buff operators. It may be interesting to you that Ember’s ring of fire also buffs amps, because their requirement is for bullets or projectiles to be shot through the ring to gain their +heat effect. Why don’t we see Ember in the mainstream hunting meta? Because eidolon shields only take damage from Void Damage. In the case of volt, his shields also buff critical damage, which is why he is used for amps. Ember is actually used in “trolly” hunts when people get bored with your standard 5x3, whether as a meme DPS, or to provide heat damage so that overflow damage from breaking eidolon shields with your amp will carry into the limb, which CAN be damaged by volt shields extra electric and ember’s ring’s extra heat damage.

Chroma is not the only option to oneshot limbs. You can oneshot with almost any weapon and frame. It’s just a question of how much more external buffs will you use. A rhino can also oneshot by himself. A volt shooting through his own shield without any other buffs already does over half the damage a Chroma outputs. Titania alone also does massive damage and is on par with Chroma - her Dex Pixia pistols can destroy limbs in less than a quarter of a second. Oberon is about on par with the damage chroma outputs ever since the augment change last week. Ember is comparable with volt due to 3 of her abilities being able to stack, and her 1 scaling with Str and also now useable on herself.

Any frame with a Rivenless Lanka can break a limb in 3 shots without any buffs present whatsoever from anything. Even Mk1-Braton 6x3 was done. Chroma is not the problem, it’s just the entire system of team synergy in Warframe that multiply on each other make it possible. Chroma is just the easiest way. Until they remove the synergy, which is the whole aspect Warframe has going for it, it does not matter how hard they nerf individual buffers; you can always just stack your team abilities together and still oneshot Eidolons forever, with any weapon.

What I’m looking for is transparency. If they’re going to make significant changes, such as when they removed the collision mesh a few weeks ago, it should be posted. The return of the mesh was mentioned, but why was it removed in the first place? And why was it not mentioned? The same applies for the addition and removal of terrain tps when eidolons got stuck. Neither of those were ever logged. Unairu Wisp hitboxes on eidolons have moved several times since the inception of eidolons, and not a single time was it mentioned. But something as significant as removing 1/3 of viable weapons from speedruns just because they are projectiles? This is why I have questions, and am looking for answers.

Edited August 29, 2019 by Aznvasions
More one shotting mechanics