Trinity and Rhino need changes

[WellIHopeThisOneWorks]

I actually largely agree with what your saying, the main thing is just that there are so many things in the game that break it, trinity is just 'another one' on the pile.

I feel the main issue with her is her ult, having a frame that is dedicated to energy and healing is relatively fine, But the existence of her ult makes her one completely pointless, and her one is actually decently well designed! 

A one press affinity range wide heal that maxes you out with very little strength AND gives you heeps of damage reduction on top of all that? It's ridiculous, nothing short of actual invulnerability (Harrow) can even be classified as useful against that. 

The main issue is that the game as it is currently is balanced around that ability existing, Eidolons (I know from experience) are a massive pain without one, and any of the Fortuna bosses you either need to bring a tank, or a trinity. Granted your likely doing it with Chroma for the later, but still.

I feel the main issue, currently, with her, is the fact she provides radial damage reduction at all. With so many frame abilities providing it themselves, having it is just even more of a deterrent for anything to do anything but tickle you, and anything that somehow does more than that can be forgotten in yet another single press. 

If anything, I feel a heal like that should move slower, maybe like a pulls like a shield polerize but or health instead of shields. Second, honestly, at this point...*gets ready to take some of the pitch forks* I feel the damage reduction should be removed entirely, if not just have the entire ability be reworked into something else. It's not the only reason, but its one of the main reasons DE can't make any challenging 'raid' type content, because if they try and make anything hard, it just becomes 'trinity fodder'. Instead of people having to learn to build right, just get mommy trinity to force you through it before your ready, or get Inaros.

The energy though, I feel is fine, just because you have to dedicate and entire other frame in order to allow such builds to work, and there' needs to be some frame that can provide energy, thanks to most of the other energy gain things being either conditional, random, or nullified by energy leaches. Just, if she does do that, I feel, honestly, the well should be the only way she should be able to heal. Having both is just insane. Back when she was made, she was the one and only, so I get why they went a little overboard with her. But she has to get re-tuned now, if to only encourage them to actually delve into support based frames again, instead of all the 'support' frames needing to be hybrid just to be able to do something trinity can't. 

As for the Rhino thing, your just kind of right there. Its given to early, making people complacent and encouraging 'late game' tenno to hardly even know how to jump and dodge because they can just walk through content. Even if some cant figure out how he works, many do, and many never recover from it. 
(not  to say the ability to stand still and tank things is an inherent issue, just that getting it on your second planet right out of the gate can discourage many knew players in actually learning how to be a ninja, and instead just start playing cod in there space ninja mmo and either get bored or blast through it to bother high level players who are wondering how this Rhino keeps falling over in there high level content)

[(XBOX)GodMasterTP]

19 hours ago, (PS4)CrazyBeaTzu said:

It tells you in the abilities page how to use stone skin, I didnt even need to watch a YouTube video, I went solo and tested it myself.

Both of you don't actually seem to know how to use it too. Iron Skin is a terrible skill unless you use (seriously, it is necessary to use that setup, unless you want lvl 70 enemies just demolishing your IS): Ironclad Charge, Iron Shrapnel, Health Conversion + Synth Fiber and Synth Deconstruct on your companion. 

That is literally the only way to get above 50k Iron Skin except for Mecha Pulse Rhino Build (but that setup is less consistent, also needs a companion), with this build (the Synth Fiber and Synth Deconstruct one) you can reach 100-150k Iron Skin. But still, needs a lot of work to pull that up at high levels because enemies will 1 shot your pet without even aiming at him. If anything, Rhino needs a buff.

[(XBOX)GodMasterTP]

Rhino needs to exploit a lot of gimmicks to tank, and he still tanks less than Nidus. Nidus can buff allies, tank a lot (he can reach 1kk EHP by his own, Rhino can only do it with a full party setup), and he also becomes immune to status just like Rhino. Not to mention that he does all of this, while having a skill that can basically nuke everyone in a single spot, while also being virtually immortal. 

But i don't see you complaining about him 🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔

Edited August 29, 2019 by (XB1)XG1anBl4derX

[ObsidianG]

21 hours ago, snowpreacher said:

Trinity is the true Phoenix bird, she always rise from the ashes 🙂

Whatever you do to her, she will always find a way to shine ....   

 

But does she really hurt game?
I mean you have zenurik for energy and arcane for health regen.
 

 

Focus trees and arcanes that offer energy or health are not instantaneous and take time for each individual player to get them decent or even maxed. Their purpose is completely defeated by having a frame that does this for everyone with the press of two buttons.

[ObsidianG]

2 hours ago, (NSW)Sk0rp1on said:

People can just buy Rhino, though. What about them? I feel like your just gatekeeping here and you just don’t want to play with people you feel are noobs.

That is entirely their option. I don't think it is relevant for this topic to count in people who buy frames or mods that are normally obtainable through gameplay since the act of buying already implies bypassing the normal progression. I was strictly talking about the normal progression of the game.

And my point wasn't that because people advance so quickly, I get to play with noobs and I don't like that. My point was that by offering such a strong warframe so early, people will burn through the content much faster which means they will get bored faster. Moving Rhino to the end part of the starchart progression would be better in my opinion. 

[ObsidianG]

20 hours ago, (PS4)CrazyBeaTzu said:

Any game anywhere is gonna have people that are called "min-maxers". 

 

Here's the crazy part: if trinity and rhino weren't in the game, you would still have people maxing other frames to their full potential and "breaking" the game. 

 

From a new person's outside perspective: you guys have a freaking gun that plants a homing beacon and let's you blast a buncha rounds right into that same spot, negating the need the even aim.....are you serious right now lol?

 

There's no one aspect of a videogame that makes things "broken". It's almost like a hugely multi-faceted issue that isn't completely black and white.

 

I've seen more threads about Condition overload than anything.

I think I have stated in my post that I do not consider Trinity and Rhino the only problems. 

[(NSW)Sk0rp1on]

3 minutes ago, ObsidianG said:

And my point wasn't that because people advance so quickly, I get to play with noobs and I don't like that. My point was that by offering such a strong warframe so early, people will burn through the content much faster which means they will get bored faster. Moving Rhino to the end part of the starchart progression would be better in my opinion. 

Party up if you don’t like playing with noobs.

Make a clan called XxNoNoobs420xX

[ObsidianG]

2 hours ago, TheSixOfDiamonds said:

OP, by any chance, have you used Inaros? You want to chat about immortals, he's the only frame that's so tanky I can't figure out how to build him. The only "challenge" for him is getting Covert Lethality. After that, hold 4 until maxed, and occasionally press 1 to open a finisher, restore what 25% of your health, and instantly kill anything that isn't a boss and affected by pocket sand. Healing back to 100% takes at most 4 stabs, and his armor is astronomical compared to other frames with that buff. Yes Chroma can reach similar levels (maybe Nidus? haven't built him yet), but this is more or less out of the box, b/c you will likely stack Armor and Health due to him having literally 0 shields. I did this with just range, maybe duration (i forget), and soon after saved him for all but the hardest content I bother running.

There are many frames that can trivialize a large part of the game, well into the 70+ level range, and that's okay. The thing that has me play Warframe is the fact it plays like old school Unreal Tournament and rewards you for it.

Also, I don't hate you, you just have an opinion. Mine happens to be different, and that's okay.🙂

In fact, I main Inaros. This very sentence will cause people to call me hypocritical and perhaps that's what I seem like. But you, and other people on this post that have actually read and understood my post, might be willing to have a conversation. 

I can't deny anything you said about Inaros, the thing is that's all he does. Inaros is a solo tank frame that is immortal but that's it. He doesn't help the team in any way besides being tanky ( other tank frames can also help a team ) so even if he's unkillable and can sustain damage from level 100 enemies, he lacks a lot in damage and utility which makes him a sub optimal pick for as we both said, trivializing endgame content. 

Chroma can get just as unkillable while also stacking damage and buffing allies, same for Nidus.

[ObsidianG]

31 minutes ago, (XB1)XG1anBl4derX said:

Rhino needs to exploit a lot of gimmicks to tank, and he still tanks less than Nidus. Nidus can buff allies, tank a lot (he can reach 1kk EHP by his own, Rhino can only do it with a full party setup), and he also becomes immune to status just like Rhino. Not to mention that he does all of this, while having a skill that can basically nuke everyone in a single spot, while also being virtually immortal. 

But i don't see you complaining about him 🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔

First of all, I never said Rhino was a perfect tank, I mostly referred to his buff. He is unkillable in starchart, where you don't need all those gimmicks to not die.

Second of all, my complaint about Rhino was about how early he is obtained in the game when put in perspective of how strong he is. Sure, I mentioned I would prefer Iron Skin to function like Nezha's Ward but that's just a matter of personal preference

Lastly, I am not complaining about Nidus because he is obtained much later and much harder than Rhino. 

 

[(XBOX)GodMasterTP]

7 minutes ago, ObsidianG said:

First of all, I never said Rhino was a perfect tank, I mostly referred to his buff. He is unkillable in starchart, where you don't need all those gimmicks to not die.

Second of all, my complaint about Rhino was about how early he is obtained in the game when put in perspective of how strong he is. Sure, I mentioned I would prefer Iron Skin to function like Nezha's Ward but that's just a matter of personal preference

Lastly, I am not complaining about Nidus because he is obtained much later and much harder than Rhino. 

 

Rhino only trivializes the star chart, which is not a problem (my opinion), because excalibur also does it...like, it's really "hard" to use Radial Javelin/Exalted Blade. Also, it takes 3 to 4 days to get Rhino, i literally blitzed the entire star chart before my Rhino was done, only with Excalibur.  

So what you're saying is only a half-truth at best, the game literally gives you a frame that can trivialize combat in the beginning of it, Rhino is not a problem.

[(XBOX)Zweimander]

Is this thread a joke? Because Rhino is outclassed by most other tank frames and trinity is replaced by operators once you invest enough into them...

[TheSixOfDiamonds]

2 hours ago, ObsidianG said:

In fact, I main Inaros. This very sentence will cause people to call me hypocritical and perhaps that's what I seem like. But you, and other people on this post that have actually read and understood my post, might be willing to have a conversation. 

I can't deny anything you said about Inaros, the thing is that's all he does. Inaros is a solo tank frame that is immortal but that's it. He doesn't help the team in any way besides being tanky ( other tank frames can also help a team ) so even if he's unkillable and can sustain damage from level 100 enemies, he lacks a lot in damage and utility which makes him a sub optimal pick for as we both said, trivializing endgame content. 

Chroma can get just as unkillable while also stacking damage and buffing allies, same for Nidus.

I dunno, pocket sand + literally any dagger + Covert Lethality is legit anything dies. While it won't be super great for Arbitration Survivals, it's still a oneshot. Pair this with the fact you can have shotguns that do literal tens of thousands of damage and you do trivialize high level content.

All this being said, it is important to remember: if one so chooses literally any frame outside Excal Prime can be bought. Zero grind, and as far as I'm aware, no Mastery/Starchart required. I cannot confirm my suspicions, though. I haven't bought any frame outside Frost Prime, because I was running out of time to grind and didn't know he'd be literally every winter since the unvaulting he was first in. So grain of salt and all that.

Also bear in mind: this is a team game. Inaros's immortality is great solo, but outside his party healing (I forget which, but one of his abilities allows other frames to "devour" enemies and heal), what does he bring to the team? He a stellar medic, that's for sure, but if you can simply prevent that with Trinity or Oberon (esp via Phoenix Renewal), why not? It helps the team.

And for solo play, why bother caring?

[(XBOX)GodMasterTP]

4 hours ago, (XB1)Zweimander said:

Is this thread a joke? Because Rhino is outclassed by most other tank frames and trinity is replaced by operators once you invest enough into them...

Rhino is only outclassed by Trinity and Nidus, please, don't exaggerate.

[(PSN)CrazyBeaTzu]

8 hours ago, (XB1)XG1anBl4derX said:

Both of you don't actually seem to know how to use it too. Iron Skin is a terrible skill unless you use (seriously, it is necessary to use that setup, unless you want lvl 70 enemies just demolishing your IS): Ironclad Charge, Iron Shrapnel, Health Conversion + Synth Fiber and Synth Deconstruct on your companion. 

That is literally the only way to get above 50k Iron Skin except for Mecha Pulse Rhino Build (but that setup is less consistent, also needs a companion), with this build (the Synth Fiber and Synth Deconstruct one) you can reach 100-150k Iron Skin. But still, needs a lot of work to pull that up at high levels because enemies will 1 shot your pet without even aiming at him. If anything, Rhino needs a buff.

Wow thats good to know. So the rhino hate is kinda unfounded?

[(XBOX)GodMasterTP]

14 minutes ago, (PS4)CrazyBeaTzu said:

Wow thats good to know. So the rhino hate is kinda unfounded?

The only reason i can think of to make it reasonable to hate Rhino, it's when they don't use Roar...because that's all people complain about Rhino mains. Even then, i don't need Roar because my build already has bonkers damage, so: I don't need = I DON'T USE, the only exception is Eidolon hunts. 

So yeah, Rhino hate is unfounded as hell. Most people that hate don't even know how he works.

 

Edited August 30, 2019 by (XB1)XG1anBl4derX

[(PSN)CrazyBeaTzu]

1 minute ago, (XB1)XG1anBl4derX said:

The only reason i can think of to make it reasonable to hate Rhino, it's when they don't use Roar...because that's all people complain about Rhino mains. Even then, i don't need Roar because my build already has bonkers damage, so: I don't need = I DON'T USE, the only exception is Eidolon hunts. 

So yeah, Rhino hate is unfounded as hell. Most people that hate don't even know how he works.

 

Yea i have no problem spammin roar. Im proud of it, its 130+ % now.

[(XBOX)GodMasterTP]

1 hour ago, (PS4)CrazyBeaTzu said:

Yea i have no problem spammin roar. Im proud of it, its 130+ % now.

I can reach 150%, but it costs too much energy, i wouldn't spam it even if i wanted.

[uAir]

On 2019-08-28 at 5:51 PM, ObsidianG said:

I will probably be stoned to death for what I will say in this post but I haven't heard this opinion anywhere and I want to put it up here with the risk of becoming the most wanted Tenno. 

 

Trinity and Rhino are one of the most problematic frames in the game and their design hurts the game. 

 

First, our beloved Trinity. If I were to make a tier list Trinity would be S++++ because she trivializes the entire game. A support that makes the entire team unkillable and offers and endless supply of energy, both actions done with the press of two different buttons, it's not good in my book. People have been asking for a challenge in the game, well you can't have challange in a game where one character just keeps the only 2 resources the game wants you to manage maxed. She makes nuke frames beyond overpowered because they don't have to manage energy and positioning and movement are stuff you can forget about when Trinity anyway heals you to max with one button. The only workaround DE has found is the ability negating mechanics which everyone hates as they only make things annoying if not anything else. Not to mention, other support frames fall flat in the face of Trinity because none can offer what she offers, the only one close to Trin's level of support is Harrow but Harrow actually needs some skill to play effectively and actually help the team. It's not rocket science but it's more than just pressing one button. 

With this said, Trinity needs a rework. I'm fine having a general purpose support that has as main perk replenishing allies resources but this must be done in a different way. Healing an entire team to full HP and shields must be something hard to pull of and keeping everyone's energy maxed must again be something difficult to do. I don't have any ideas for this said rework, but I know it's a must if there's any chance of having challenging content in Warframe, ever. Anything they pump out will always be made easy by having a Trinity in the squad.

 

Now, onto Rhino. I honestly don't have that much of an issue with Rhino. Sure, he suffers from the same one button win syndrome but at least his one button just buffs the damage of everyone which isn't so bad. His iron skin could be made to function like Nezha's shield in my opinion since just straight out invulnerability to X amount of damage isn't ok at all. My biggest problem with Rhino is how he is obtained. For most new players, he is the second warframe after the starter and this is a huge issue. In the hands of a completely new player you give a frame that cannot die and has one of the best buffs in the game. Guess what this leads to? That new player skyrocketing through the rest of the starchart because they can't die due to iron skin, while also having a window to most high level content. Some strength, some duration and all new players are ready to go into pretty much anything with a buff Rhino build. So in short, my issue is that the game gives such a powerful frame like Rhino too early and too lightly. I don't think Rhino needs any substatial nerfs besides the iron skin change I mentioned but I do believe he should be put further into the game. There's absolutely no logic in giving a new player an unkillable frame that also happens to be one of the best buffers with little effort from the get go. 

 

With that said, I don't think Trinity and Rhino are the only problems Warframe have and that fixing them will fix the whole game. But I do consider they are part of the bigger problem and it would be best for everyone if DE would look at them. Sometimes it's not only weak frames that need a rework.

 

I'm perfectly aware I just stirred the entire masses of Trinity and Rhino loyalists so feel free to call me a mental retard if you feel like that's what I am. Most probably this won't get anywhere but I will feel better having my opinion out there.

 

P.S I know trinity got nerfed before but honestly it didn't achieve anything.

You still have so much more to learn about the game. I could dissect your post but it'd be a waste of my time because from the tone of your post there is nothing I can say that will change your mind.

=========

Just want to note that you are wrong and touch on a few things.

If you think Rhino's roar is effective then your frames and weapons are not well modded. At every point of play where you can use Rhino's roar you could just have a well modded weapon instead. His Iron Skin is also not very useful early in the game to new players. New players can use it as a crutch to get through some stuff but it doesn't detract from actually requiring to mod quite heavily for it (which new players aren't able to do due to them just not having endo or the right mods) or using it and just running and gunning as normal.

Let me try to construe your argument another way:
Excalibur is too strong early on because all he needs to do is mod for his 4 and then use it and it kills everything. This takes away from the experience that a new player should have when it comes to surviving content and actually using normal weapons in the game.

Everything wrong you can find with my argument is also wrong with your argument about Rhino without me even having to pick at it.

=========

Trinity is a non-issue. Her damage reduction is amazing, especially when stacked on top of more damage reduction.
But you give up a slot in the team that could just be as tanky and do much more damage.
Also, she cannot EV and Bless at the same time. You could try to mod for both builds but it'd be a poor facsimile of what that build actually could be. I have tried several "balanced" builds and they just suck. Endgame, it's better to just go with a blessing build. For other content where you can cheese things by supplying energy then go EV. And then have your third setup for tridolons. That's it for Trinity.

=========

The takeaway argument here is this: Consider any content in the game you want, I don't care what it is. Now tell me your desired team composition in it because you think Rhino and Trinity should fill two spots because of how good they are. I will tell you a different team composition that will work better and it may involve one Trinity or one Rhino but it likely will not contain either of them and even if you have one instance there are even more game modes out there where neither one are optimal.

[kapn655321]

On 2019-08-28 at 6:51 PM, ObsidianG said:

A support that makes the entire team unkillable and offers and endless supply of energy

While she is undoubtedly very effective at these tasks, some things to keep in mind..

She does not have any real damage abilities.
She does not have stealth abilities.
She does not have armor or survivability without her 3, and it's duration is limited.
Both her 2 and 4 are circumstantial.

2 Must me cast on an enemy, and allies must be in range.
Enemy must be killed, or ticks must be timed accordingly.
It also cannot be used for among the most powerful abilities,
which tend to be channeled as a result, specifically to reduce Trin advantage.
4 Must be within affinity range, does not heal full on some allies with big health bars,
and provides a Damage Resistance, but not immunity.

These factors are accentuated or hindered by each player's individual mod style,
as well as enemy and ally placement which she has limited to no control over.

She's been around for a long while in game,
which is why we see her being played to peak performance so often..
Her style and builds are both familiar and commonly shared over many years.
 

Edited August 30, 2019 by kapn655321

[Teridax68]

I can largely agree with the OP. Starting with what I think is the simpler of the two problems:

Rhino I can agree is a well-designed frame overall, and at higher levels he is completely reasonable relative to other tank frames, some of which end up having an even easier time tanking than him (e.g. Inaros). However, I can very much agree that his balance in the early game is a problem, because as the OP said, Rhino is infamous for being able to steamroll through the Star Chart with few additional mods, thanks to Iron Skin's tremendous base durability at those stages. In this respect, I think the simplest solution here is to nerf Iron Skin's base stats at its early levels, while keeping the top rank stats the same:

• For the base buffer, this could mean having 0 / 400 / 800 / 1200 base "health", instead of the current 400 / 600 / 800 / 1200.
• For the armor multiplier, this could mean having 100 / 150 / 200 / 250% armor as part of the buffer, instead of the current 250% at all ranks.

As for Trinity, as a Trinity main I have to say I fully agree: as she currently exists, she breaks the Energy economy if it ever happened to not be broken before, and I'd go as far as to say her 4 is the strongest out of any in the entire game, by a significant margin: for a relatively negligible cost that is made all the more insignificant by her own Energy generation, Trinity can heal her entire team to full health near-instantly, and apply a large damage reduction effect on top. The only reason she isn't dominating the meta now compared to before is because a) the current Energy economy is so broken that she can't really make things any worse, and b) there's been a shift in focus towards self-sustaining frames with lots of damage, which lessens the need for Trinity's own protection, and instead highlights her own lack of damage relative to supports like Octavia or Harrow.

Because Trinity's problems are embedded within her kit, I agree that she needs a rework: I think one quick win would be to remove the durability steroid from her 4, and instead reimplement in in some other manner into a new 1. Her 2 I think needs to turn into something else, ideally something that preserves the mark-and-kill mechanics of some of her playstyles, though beyond that it's debatable what the new effect should be (though it should likely have something to do with protection or resource conservation, rather than damage or anything offensive). I think it'd be fine for Trinity to be the game's foremost healer frame, though that is one niche, and currently she is the best at multiple niches at once, i.e. healing, Energy provision, and protective buffing.

[Hellmaker2004]

On 2019-08-29 at 1:07 AM, Peter said:

Trinity is the most broken support imo, infinite life with instant 100% health/shield  and enery plus 99,9% damage mitigation (3+4), ah, and you don't need any skill to be a good support, you even need to aim.

 

Need to point out that it is neither infinite life, instant 100% health/shield, nor is it 99.9% Damage mitigation.

First of all Blessing is only up to 75% Damage resistance to herself and allies upon cast, secondly it has a 0.5 second delay cast. That mean it is neither instant and she have a gap in her defense as she dispel herself before applying the new one. I am well aware that a 0.5 second is  a very short amount, but it can be more than enough time than enemies need at higher levels.

And she only give herself 75% Damage resistance, Plus 75% Damage resistance, Plus her armor of 15 = (15/(15+300))*100 = 4.7619047619% Damage resistance.
This adds up to 100-(((100*0.25)*0.25)*0.95238095238)= 94.0476190476% Damage resistance, assuming both Link and Blessing is always lined up for all damage taken, Link always have a target it is tethered to and lets be real it won't be as you can not refresh Link while it is active nor does Link have infinite range, some mobs are even immune to Link, Eidolons would be one example of a mob immune to it and all this before we even consider that Blessing has a 0.5 Second delay timer.

Not only is ~94% Damage resistance not even close to 99.9%, but 94% Damage resistance, this is including her armor is less then what other Warframes have. Some with bigger gap in their defense, but also other with even less gap.

[Loza03]

I do agree with Trinity on paper, although honestly more in the sense that the energy economy as a whole needs looking at. As-is, it's so easy to get energy that 'ult-like' abilities aren't ult-like, at all. Trinity is a part of that but let's be real, Hunter Adrenaline, Zenurki and Energy pads means that needing her for nukes is a distant memory. And whilst that's great for weaker or more utility powers, for those that work by taking out a bit of the gameplay, it goes from being a short but powerful ability to game-breaking. This doesn't just apply to nukes either, even if they're the most tangible.

I think that nukes, infinite CC-spam and whatnot are a far larger problem that requires a lot more fixing on a power-by-power basis, sprinkling new mechanics for some, weaknesses against certain enemies or situations for other or whatnot, but that's another can of worms.

Rhino, not so much. See, there is actually a term for what you're describing. A 'first order optimal strategy'. And it's a valid thing. Simply put, newer players often want or need a crutch like that to ease them in but something that isn't so powerful that it overshadows the rest of the game, and Rhino is actually very well-designed for the role. Acquiring him isn't all that complicated and he's acquired very early. His abilities are very basic and easy to use, but also respond very well to modding. He's powerful but honestly, by far from the best frame. He's an old reliable at best.

As can be seen here, his usage falls off heavily after about MR9

He's also heavily underused at MR 1-2, then rapidly climbs from there before the dropoff

He exists to carry players through the starchart, then be left behind. And that's OK.

[Frosty-the-snowden]

Honestly chief, I'd agree that Rhino is a poor choice of frame as one of the first available to farm and craft for new players, but for kind of the opposite reason. His iron skin, even when poorly used (no buff from enemy damage, ect) basically lets newbies ignore defense or tactical play entirely and just rush around killing everything with their weapons, ignoring basically all of the other abilities in order to have another Iron Skin ready at all times. This builds a whole lot of bad habits while denying them the chance to get valuable low level practice. By even mid-star chart, when enemies start shredding iron skin in seconds, his players have not only no idea how to use iron skin properly, or the rest of his kit, but tactical play as a whole frequently slips; and it's hard at that point to go back and try to re-learn how to play levels you were just breezing through rather than saying "eh, I'll come back to it" and putting the game down for good.

Rhino's fine as-is (so long as you remember he's more of a buffing/charge-leading/vanguard frame who who has helpful amounts of durability rather than a straight adaptatinaros-grade "tank") but you're definitely onto something by saying he shouldn't be located where he is.

[VanFanel1980mx]

On 2019-08-28 at 5:51 PM, ObsidianG said:

A support that makes the entire team unkillable and offers and endless supply of energy

You weren't around when old Trinity granted 100% damage immunity right?

[Sigma-118]

Nice post OP, now I dont argue any of the points you make but there is one thing I dont get. Why does Warframe need challenge? I get there is the small part of the comunity who have played 5000+ hours and have gotten bored of whatever content they have left. Obviously adding a bunch of challenge would help these particlar people or just players with a taste for challenge to stay engaged.  But is this something that DE should do? How necessary is it and how potentially detrimental could it be?

I genuinely have no idea whatsoever as to how these questions should be answered. I just got the impression that these questions generally arent tackled so much when this subject is brought into the forefront so id though id take this oppurtunity to see if OP or anyone else would like to share why exctaly they believe so strongly that challenge should be added.