Trinity and Rhino need changes

[(PSN)Hopper_Orouk]

Never bothered to play trinity

But Rhino requires a lot of forma investments and a ton of expensive mods + augments to be good 

My Heavily midded Rhino still gets one shotted at profit taker fight

It's simply very fair since literally your build defines how much strong your Rhino is

 

I think Rhino is one of the most perfectly designed warframe in the game 

All of his abilities scale and synergies with each other, and all of them are viable through and beyond the chart 

But you also need to know the right build for him, and you need to invest so much forma too

It's fair because it rewards my investment with a powerful character...but really he's still not as powerful as most new warframes

[Teridax68]

46 minutes ago, Sigma-118 said:

Nice post OP, now I dont argue any of the points you make but there is one thing I dont get. Why does Warframe need challenge? I get there is the small part of the comunity who have played 5000+ hours and have gotten bored of whatever content they have left. Obviously adding a bunch of challenge would help these particlar people or just players with a taste for challenge to stay engaged.  But is this something that DE should do? How necessary is it and how potentially detrimental could it be?

I genuinely have no idea whatsoever as to how these questions should be answered. I just got the impression that these questions generally arent tackled so much when this subject is brought into the forefront so id though id take this oppurtunity to see if OP or anyone else would like to share why exctaly they believe so strongly that challenge should be added.

This is a good question, and I agree that often the question of challenge never gets addressed beyond the surface level, as the term carries a unique emotional baggage in the Warframe community. To some extent, I think it comes from the way people see challenge: to some, challenge is simply a means of stimulating the player more, but to others, challenge is about making the game purely more difficult to play. The former I'd say is beneficial, even essential to the longevity of the game, but the latter I can agree is unnecessary.

For me, challenge is important because ultimately, Warframe is a video game focused around combat, and if that combat fails to be intrinsically fun, the game itself then ends up having a hard time generating continuous interest. This is already the case to some extent: besides the obvious case of veterans leaving once they have nothing to do, there's also a large amount of people who don't really "get" Warframe's grind and rewards, and so who end up not really enjoying the game once they start to steamroll content. More broadly, Warframe depends far too much on extrinsic rewards, i.e. grinding for an item, rather than intrinsic rewards, i.e. the inherent enjoyment of playing the game (and make no mistake, Warframe does have some immensely enjoyable gameplay nonetheless), which ultimately has caused its total amount of playtime on offer to be limited, if very large. Thus, while Warframe shouldn't be a difficult game, I don't think it should be a trivial game either: there is room for the player to express their power fantasy and still expect to be stimulated by interesting enemies, environments, and an appropriate amount of balancing so that they genuinely benefit from interacting with the game, instead of repeating the same rote pattern all the time, the latter of which generates monotony (e.g. Mesa refreshing her buffs and pressing 4 every few seconds).

I think one of the reasons why some players on here oppose the idea of challenge, aside from an overall fear of nerfs, is because DE's attempts to inject challenge into the game in the past have not produced great results: Nullifiers and energy drain Eximus units were implemented to counter ability use, for example, yet often don't feel fun to play against because they end up creating game scenarios where we're robbed of our abilities. Enemy levels and stat increases were rebalanced to give us more of a challenge at higher levels, but the net result of that has simply been a horrendous high-level balancing environment where enemies turn into bullet sponges with one-shot capabilities. For many Warframe players, challenge is synonymous with inconvenience, and nobody likes to be inconvenienced, especially if the game still remains largely trivial.

On the flipside, however, what's often overlooked about challenge and balance overall is that it's not great to be too powerful, either: clearing a room with the press of a button can be an amazing feeling the first time it's done, but when that button keeps getting pressed over and over, because it's the optimal gameplay, it quickly becomes mundane, even boring. Similarly, being able to make oneself immortal pretty much all the time without much effort removes a huge component of interaction with enemies, and makes missions similarly tedious. In order to have fun, the game we play needs to be interesting, and the game can't really be interesting so long as we don't have to actually pay any real attention to the content it gives us. This means, among other things, changing the warframes that are responsible for trivializing the game, until they become interesting to play.

[Gataco]

First of all, in order for Trinity to supply large amounts of energy and make her 4 work well, you would need to use two conflicting builds. You say that her 4 makes everyone "unkillable," but Blessing only gives 75% DR at maximum. That's 1/4 damage taken, which is nothing compared to what you get with Gara or Warding Halo Nezha. And about Blessing healing up to full health in a single cast, yeah, it's nice, but a passive heal like Oberon's Renewal is much better because you tend take damage in small-ish increments over time. In order to get full effect out of Blessing, you would need to be one hit away from dying before you cast it. And if you think Blessing is bad now, it used to be exactly that but provide DR based on the inverse of how much health Trinity had left. So if you cast at half health, you would get 50% DR for your squad. Cast at 2 health, you could get 99% DR. That was broken and was eventually nerfed.

About Energy Vampire, yes, the skill is very powerful, but the popular nuke frames don't even need it. The only one I can think of is Volt, because his nuke costs 100 energy at base. But even Energy Vampire has been slowly made less and less a necessity through Arcanes, Focus, and energy pads. Its only use is a battery in ESO, and even then, in order for it to be effective, you sacrifice everything else Trinity can do. You could argue that even if you build for Bless, you can still get energy out of it by casting EV and killing the enemy, but for the amount of strength you want on a Bless build, the amount of energy gained is perfectly balanced.

On the topic of new players getting Rhino too early, I don't think that is a problem either. Yes, Iron Skin can lead to unhealthy play habits, but dang if it isn't fun for a new player to run around murdering things as a stomping, charging, unkillable tank. Speculation, but I imagine Rhino alone has kept many a new player from abandoning the game.

On 2019-08-28 at 6:51 PM, ObsidianG said:

That new player skyrocketing through the rest of the starchart because they can't die due to iron skin, while also having a window to most high level content. Some strength, some duration and all new players are ready to go into pretty much anything with a buff Rhino build

I don't see the problem with this. You can achieve the same effect by picking Excalibur and swoosh-swooshing your way to victory through the entire starchart, and he literally is a starter frame! Getting an early window into high-level content isn't bad at all, and it gives a newer player a sense of progression and power. At higher levels, Iron Skin (mostly) keeps other players from having to revive him, and Roar and Stomp allow him to be a good team player. Contrary to your opinion, I believe Rhino is a great frame to give to newer players, especially those who are younger or newer to video games in general to keep them playing the game and having fun.

[Xzorn]

It's not surprising really. I've been seeing a lot of post about Trinity and Rhino from inexperienced players lately.

All I can really say is this game is a joke and if  you want to do more than press 1 button or do one thing then challenge yourself to higher level enemies as neither Rhino or Trinity are easy to play when it counts. You make the mistake many have by thinking the frame is broken when in fact the game is.

Anything "challenging"  Warframe will always be made easy because of any number of frames and/or ability stacking. Why care about Trinity or Rhino when Volt can make the whole team immortal and Octavia can make then perma Invis?  Pssh. Rhino is good design, Trinity, Well of Life *shrug* otherwise good. Frames like Octavia are the broken crap design that needs to be fixed. We all know she's broken and yet no one talks about it.

[(XBOX)GodMasterTP]

21 hours ago, (PS4)Hopper_Orouk said:

Never bothered to play trinity

But Rhino requires a lot of forma investments and a ton of expensive mods + augments to be good 

My Heavily midded Rhino still gets one shotted at profit taker fight

It's simply very fair since literally your build defines how much strong your Rhino is

 

I think Rhino is one of the most perfectly designed warframe in the game 

All of his abilities scale and synergies with each other, and all of them are viable through and beyond the chart 

But you also need to know the right build for him, and you need to invest so much forma too

It's fair because it rewards my investment with a powerful character...but really he's still not as powerful as most new warframes

Only Rhino mains who know each detail of him, know how much he needs a buff.  

People that have not gone too far on him, will think he is fine because he is popular. 

People who have gone far, but not enough, will think he is fine because he can do what the top frames can do. 

But the problem is how he does it, not if he does it. You have to put too much effort to tank with Rhino, but you'll never tank as much as Nidus or Trinity. And you barely need efforts at all to tank with them for example. 

The tanking example of course, is just 1.

[(PSN)Hopper_Orouk]

1 hour ago, (XB1)XG1anBl4derX said:

Only Rhino mains who know each detail of him, know how much he needs a buff.  

People that have not gone too far on him, will think he is fine because he is popular. 

People who have gone far, but not enough, will think he is fine because he can do what the top frames can do. 

But the problem is how he does it, not if he does it. You have to put too much effort to tank with Rhino, but you'll never tank as much as Nidus or Trinity. And you barely need efforts at all to tank with them for example. 

The tanking example of course, is just 1.

Yea he needs a lot of power strength, augment mods and other mods to be viable

[Teridax68]

5 hours ago, Gataco1 said:

First of all, in order for Trinity to supply large amounts of energy and make her 4 work well, you would need to use two conflicting builds. You say that her 4 makes everyone "unkillable," but Blessing only gives 75% DR at maximum. That's 1/4 damage taken, which is nothing compared to what you get with Gara or Warding Halo Nezha. And about Blessing healing up to full health in a single cast, yeah, it's nice, but a passive heal like Oberon's Renewal is much better because you tend take damage in small-ish increments over time. In order to get full effect out of Blessing, you would need to be one hit away from dying before you cast it. And if you think Blessing is bad now, it used to be exactly that but provide DR based on the inverse of how much health Trinity had left. So if you cast at half health, you would get 50% DR for your squad. Cast at 2 health, you could get 99% DR. That was broken and was eventually nerfed.

None of this I'd say is entirely true: while Trinity's EV and Blessing builds do have opposite amounts of Duration and Range, EV builds are mostly used for the augment's overshields and single-target damage, whereas a Blessing build Trinity can still kill her EV'd target to end the effects immediately and get all of the remaining Energy. Part of what makes allies "unkillable" with Blesing isn't simply the DR, but also the heal it comes attached with, all of which comes in an ability that can be cast instantly on every ally in affinity range: the same cannot be said for Gara or Nezha's protections, neither of which heal either. It is far better as well than Oberon's Renewal healing, because when enemy damage starts to be a problem, it tends to get really bursty, as happens in higher levels when any single shot can deal hundreds of damage. I definitely agree that Trinity is no longer as relevant in the current metagame as she was in previous ones (for once), but I really don't think that's a product of her kit being in any way weak or inefficient, so much as the current circumstances simply not requiring her skillset as much as previous states of the game. If the Energy economy weren't completely broken already, or if we hadn't been swamped with so many frames with massive personal damage reduction steroids already, she would likely still be considered a god-tier support.

[Gataco]

16 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

A Blessing build Trinity can still kill her EV'd target to end the effects immediately and get all of the remaining Energy.

I mentioned this in the next paragraph. While you can do this and make it work, it's not like a traditional Bless/tank build has anywhere near enough strength or range to be a battery for the team. Most times a Bless Trin casts her 2 are to simply top herself off to sustain her self buffs.

16 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

EV builds are mostly used for the augment's overshields and single-target damage

I'm not sure where you're seeing EV Trinities doing this, but it's way less effective than simply running a Bless build and shooting the enemies unless the Trin is just trying to be useful while another frame nukes the rest of the map. Yes, EV does scale to the target's health, but there really aren't any situations in the game where you need to take out heavily scaling, beefy targets one at a time (barring Disruption, but EV doesn't work on demo units afaik).

16 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

Part of what makes allies "unkillable" with Blesing isn't simply the DR, but also the heal it comes attached with, all of which comes in an ability that can be cast instantly on every ally in affinity range: the same cannot be said for Gara or Nezha's protections, neither of which heal either. It is far better as well than Oberon's Renewal healing, because when enemy damage starts to be a problem, it tends to get really bursty, as happens in higher levels when any single shot can deal hundreds of damage.

At the point you're referring to, the enemy-Warframe scaling starts to break down and unless the Trinity is spamming Bless nonstop, you're going to have squadmates going down to insanely high burst damage. At that point, neither burst nor passive healing will really come in handy. And at lower levels, any frame with significant healing abilities will be enough to keep your squad going. The reason I said that Renewal is better is that you don't have to monitor your teammates' health bars and cast when they get low; they just won't get that low in the first place. You could achieve the same effect with constant monitoring and burst healing, but no one wants to put in that much effort when you can just tap and forget.

17 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

I definitely agree that Trinity is no longer as relevant in the current metagame as she was in previous ones (for once), but I really don't think that's a product of her kit being in any way weak or inefficient, so much as the current circumstances simply not requiring her skillset as much as previous states of the game. If the Energy economy weren't completely broken already, or if we hadn't been swamped with so many frames with massive personal damage reduction steroids already, she would likely still be considered a god-tier support.

I do agree with you there. Sometimes I kind of wish that the energy economy wasn't so broken, but then I remember that the alternative (and what it used to be) is every squad requiring a Trinity to be their battery. Then I realize it's not so bad; at least it's imbalanced in favor of the game being more fun to play.

[Teridax68]

5 hours ago, Gataco1 said:

I mentioned this in the next paragraph. While you can do this and make it work, it's not like a traditional Bless/tank build has anywhere near enough strength or range to be a battery for the team. Most times a Bless Trin casts her 2 are to simply top herself off to sustain her self buffs.

I can agree to Bless Trinity lacking the range to propagate EV properly, but I don't think lack of Strength is really a factor, because you don't actually need much Strength to supply lots of Energy per cast: at neutral Strength, you're already restoring 100 Energy per cast, and with the additional 50% Strength you'll need for the 75% DR, that means you can give 150 Energy a pop by spamming the ability alongside a bursty weapon. It's certainly not optimal relative to EV, but it is nonetheless more than functional, as it is still better than any other Energy-restoring ability, and for a long time was plenty enough Energy for many players even when the situation wasn't quite as broken as now.

5 hours ago, Gataco1 said:

I'm not sure where you're seeing EV Trinities doing this, but it's way less effective than simply running a Bless build and shooting the enemies unless the Trin is just trying to be useful while another frame nukes the rest of the map. Yes, EV does scale to the target's health, but there really aren't any situations in the game where you need to take out heavily scaling, beefy targets one at a time (barring Disruption, but EV doesn't work on demo units afaik).

EV Trinity used to be very popular in certain boss runs, e.g. Kela de Thaym, precisely because her damage quickly ate through their health. Single-target damage is no longer as relevant now as it was before, due to the excessive strength of nuke frames, but it had a place, particularly in Endless missions.

5 hours ago, Gataco1 said:

At the point you're referring to, the enemy-Warframe scaling starts to break down and unless the Trinity is spamming Bless nonstop, you're going to have squadmates going down to insanely high burst damage. At that point, neither burst nor passive healing will really come in handy. And at lower levels, any frame with significant healing abilities will be enough to keep your squad going. The reason I said that Renewal is better is that you don't have to monitor your teammates' health bars and cast when they get low; they just won't get that low in the first place. You could achieve the same effect with constant monitoring and burst healing, but no one wants to put in that much effort when you can just tap and forget.

But that's the point: if you're in a situation where your allies are taking so much constant damage that they're at constant risk of death from burst, a heal that clears all of that damage instantly is still better than a heal over time. Oberon's HoT in this respect thus serves absolutely no real use, and while he doesn't have to monitor his allies, he does have to monitor his Energy, which drains increasingly rapidly for every ally in his healing range. The one effect the ability has over Blessing is the rez on its augment, and even then it's on a significant cooldown. It is the fact that Trinity can bring anyone instantly to full health from a large distance, in addition to giving them significant damage reduction, that makes Blessing so exceedingly strong, and the ability does in fact get used at 100% uptime in some builds for that very reason. A heal or DR effect alone would already be quite powerful, but it is specifically the combination of the burst healing and persistent mitigation that lets the ability counter virtually all forms of damage.

5 hours ago, Gataco1 said:

I do agree with you there. Sometimes I kind of wish that the energy economy wasn't so broken, but then I remember that the alternative (and what it used to be) is every squad requiring a Trinity to be their battery. Then I realize it's not so bad; at least it's imbalanced in favor of the game being more fun to play.

I can agree with this here: I don't like the current state of the Energy economy, because many of our strongest abilities aren't balanced around being essentially free to cast, and the end result is a situation where combat fails to be stimulating, because we can always use our strongest ability against every situation, almost all the time. At the same time, I like the base state of the game's Energy economy even less, where we're expected to scrounge for Energy and hold off on using even our most basic abilities for extended periods of time, which doesn't fit at all with the game's pace. I think going forward, Warframe needs to operate under a system where we can use most of our abilities at any time without having to think about resource management, but then where those abilities have genuine gameplay of their own, instead of giving just more power for a period of time. This should also entail reworking Trinity, or at least EV, as I don't think the ability's Energy restoration really should exist to begin with.

[ThreeOSix]

On 2019-08-28 at 5:51 PM, ObsidianG said:

She makes nuke frames beyond overpowered because they don't have to manage energy and positioning and movement are stuff you can forget about when Trinity anyway heals you to max with one button.

That's literally the whole point of the game...to create synergies between teammates to make the team as a whole more powerful.  The issue is that content is brain dead easy outside of endurance runs.  In long endurance runs, the "overpowered" of frames drops off and having that team synergy is important.  Even in pug groups if you get some combos going (either with heals, or energy restore, or even cc's) it's a beautiful thing.