(PC) Bow Stat Changes Feedback

[HIGHDAMAGE]

Bows feel great now hope this aint to follow a disposition nerf

[Peter]

On 2019-09-08 at 4:41 PM, HIGHDAMAGE said:

Bows feel great now hope this aint to follow a disposition nerf

Me too, thanks to the willing nerfs I'm holding back to buy Rivens, it's no longer viable content.

[Test-995]

On 2019-09-09 at 4:41 AM, HIGHDAMAGE said:

Bows feel great now hope this aint to follow a disposition nerf

That makes this buff practically nonexistent lul

[KnightOwl_]

On 2019-08-31 at 1:27 AM, (PS4)Black-Cat-Jinx said:

A lot of this is good.... None of it will allow bows to challenge other weapon types.

You really need to just accept that it's time you tweak some mechanics. Having bows and semi auto rifles effected by combo counters would be a good start, and also tweaking thunderbolt so that it actually causes a portion of total damage to be delivered as area of effect instead of it being a fixed damage amount.

You can buff bows all you want but people are still going to mostly use the ignis wraith or other meta weapons because they are more rewarding in damage but require less skill. This isn't going to be enough to get people using any bow outside the lens.

Also. Seeing as this is obviously a preparation for Ivara prime to be coming out in another month or two when wukong slides down his monkey pole, what are you doing to Artemis?

That’s because this entire game needs a balancing pass.  Any developer that wasn’t afraid of riven/plat tears would have nerfed ignis into the ground a year ago.  

[Peter]

On 2019-09-12 at 1:43 AM, Test-995 said:

That makes this buff practically nonexistent lul

Welcome to the wonderful dispo system!

[Miyabi-sama]

Changing stats was a great move. That long waited buff is very welcome. I have almost lost faith but here we are, finally bows are hitting several dozen percents harder.

On the other side bows are mechanically challenging and this change will be most noticed by "bowlovers".

Bows themselves are suffering from long reload and draw speed. Sometimes it can be remedied by utility mods sacrificing strength in favor of swiftness because the cost of missing shots is very high. Potentially fatal. Having this in consideration, the game certainly doesn't lacking frames buffing fire rate so high even Daikyu feels as fast as Rakta Cernos.

Also the great feature is different bows are evidently performing better in different circumstances. Thus said, bringing Dread for Sortie lvl Ambulas was clearly a mistake since we've wasted nearly 20 minutes just to fail in the end, not even Lenz guy could carry us out. But! Having put a little thought and bringing a simple Paris Prime crit/rad build (no rivens) improved situation tenfold. Hence having different bows with different stats doesnt feel redundant, not to mention every bow has its own "flavor".

In summary, bows' position havent changed drastically (aside of Daikyu, but this gonna be a very different topic since Dai undergone complete rebranding). It is still a solid kind of weapons, beautiful and strong.

Nothing will bring you more satisfaction than an accidental double/triple headshots with a single arrow during aimglide.

[(XBOX)KayAitch]

On 2019-09-01 at 7:29 PM, (XB1)KayAitch said:

But this point is also key: the problem with bows is snipers - less cumbersome to use, mostly hit scan, combo counter and mostly no charge mechanic. The Daikyu just doesn't do as much damage as, say, a Rubico (as 3x crit really makes a difference), while being harder to use and not having a combo mechanic (and not really being quick enough to use one anyway). 

I'd also add an aside that status bows in general aren't much use unless very high, and even then not very useful. When only shooting 1 arrow every second or two you aren't going to get many chances at procs, and less than 100% means they just feel unreliable. When you proc viral great, they're dead, when you don't you have to shoot them again while they shoot back.

Bows need to offer something else - more damage, sure, they need to be very high compared to easier to use weapons, but to be slow and cumbersome and still compete with snipers they need their own mechanic.

Maybe a bows combo counter that adds 5% affinity, and 100% base damage every successive headshot, up to 25% affinity and 500% damage after 5 headshots in a row. Miss a headshot and it resets. Multishot bows count as a headshot if any hit a head. No timeout. Bows become the focus farming weapon of choice with crazy high damage for those with the skill to use them.

OK, I now have the buffed Daikyu on X1 and it is awesome. Headshots are a one-shot kill on just about anything, and (with a riven) it's even viable for Eidolons.

However, snipers remain more effective, and its current place is in part due to very high riven disposition (compared to snipers, where all the good ones have really poor rivens).

Now that Daikyu is more viable we're going to see that disposition drop, so its current competitiveness against snipers will drop out.

I still think bows need something extra.

Finally, I love the new visual effects, especially the little pop of particles on full drawback

[supernils]

On 2019-09-22 at 1:00 PM, (XB1)KayAitch said:

I still think bows need something extra.

My thought. To compensate draw speed and travel time you can't just up the damage even more. A bow being twice as damaging as a sniper is unrealistic. Also punch through does not fit to bows, bows stick in their target.

I could imagine bows carrying an explosive load that spreads status effect in an AoE on hit. That is something a bullet can hardly do.

As of now, bows still feel super clunky and you're like "where's my medal" when you manage to kill something with it while the guy with the other weapon cleared the room in the mean time.

Edited October 1, 2019 by supernils

[Miyabi-sama]

Только что, supernils сказал:

...

Don't have to be twice. Bows lack the combo mechanics snipers have, and if we think about it, snipers were sharing the same niche with bows. To be a precision mediocre weapon. Snipers are twice as rewarding (except Vulkar I guess, where you gotta aim in the head) in comparison to bows, while latter has arcing mechanic and heavily relies on draw speed.

Bows don't have to be realistic, it's a sci-fi. No problem with punchthrough here IMO.

And there is one examle - Mutalist Cernos, spreading AoE procs. And somewhat Lenz but that's another topic.

[Autongnosis]

Le 12/09/2019 à 06:43, Test-995 a dit :

That makes this buff practically nonexistent lul

I hope that's not the case tbh, that'd would be the paragon of bait and switch...

[(NSW)Dreadmonster]

Daikyu feels pretty much a Rubico Prime killer right now. Achieving 90 000 bleed tick with Amalgam Target Acquired and Hunter Munitions is pretty much over anything I seen. And that's prior riven. 

Changes I thought about to balance it:

Critical chance 34 -> 28

 

Everything seems pretty nice. Paris is now really enjoyable. 

[(PSN)Dyin-Kyo]

Can mutalist cernos crit chance be bumped to atleast 20%? Daikyu made a major jump from 20 to 34 with it potentially being a prime candidate weapon in the future spread the love towards the mutalist cernos which probably would never get another variation of any kind since it's already a side grade.

[Test-995]

18 hours ago, (NSW)Dreadmonster said:

Daikyu feels pretty much a Rubico Prime killer right now. Achieving 90 000 bleed tick with Amalgam Target Acquired and Hunter Munitions is pretty much over anything I seen. And that's prior riven. 

Changes I thought about to balance it:

Critical chance 34 -> 28

 

Everything seems pretty nice. Paris is now really enjoyable. 

1, it doesn't have combo

2, it's slow

3, it's much harder to hit

Only damage is the real strength of that weapon, doesn't need any nerfs at all.

[Chrypsis]

It is now my quest to see how high I can get the crit damage to be with the dread, as well as make another stalker ash build/outfit!

[sorcer3r]

There should be some mods for bows like "on full charge > neutralize nullifier bubble"  or "on full charge > X% armor strip"...

[(XBOX)KayAitch]

On 2019-10-06 at 12:11 PM, sorcer3r said:

on full charge > neutralize nullifier bubble

I love this idea, possibly requiring a bow-only augment.

[R0AHN]

On 2019-10-06 at 5:11 AM, sorcer3r said:

There should be some mods for bows like "on full charge > neutralize nullifier bubble"  or "on full charge > X% armor strip"...

I was thinking something like this too. I'd argue it shouldn't even be a mod but just a base quality of all bows, most likely only when at full charge. Just have the projectiles pass through the bubbles and not be affected by them.

Why? Because mechanically there isn't anything particularly special about bows except for the travel time and arrow drop. Giving bows bubble punchthrough would give them a specialized role. It gives a reason to use bows over other weapon types for at least one member of the party. The inherent design limitations of bows with slow multi-target kill and difficulty to hit (because they are not hitscan) mechanically balance out this utility; not everyone needs to use one but it helps the party if at least one person does.

If we need a Watsonian (in-universe) explanation for why this works, we can look to our good old friend of Dune, which gave reasons why knife-fighting would still be useful in the far-flung future. Heck, even just from the game itself - Tenno and melee weapons can pass through all bubbles just fine. The fast projectiles are deflected but the slow ones pass through.

[SnakeBadger]

i'd like some visual and reload changes when firing more than 1 arrow, and the elemental types before the shots are fired, especially charged shots to have some effect on being used more cafully and effectively, 

another thing to notice is the reload button and its functions when just spamming the shoot button, the 2x bowspeed, maybe the bow category can have some randomization and foundry updates so that they come with randomized stats or passive traits, such as elemental or explosive arrows, quiver types instead of relying on mods alone so that the paris and paris_prime_each have their own secondary or sight improvements could have the cernos using a shot-target and AOE, while mid-air combat changes the fire-rate and SFX of each shot to keep the legolas players happy, some critical hits could make the next shot a energy shot, kinetic with a special wosh to keep players in the zone.

i shot the cernos a bunch of times but it needs aughments and rivens to be a happy weapon, maybe a ENERGYshield and slide features could shoot fire arrows and improve charged shots, the #sparkisflying and, but i wanted a bit of weight on the shotmodes

, the smaller bows that decapitate really need secondary energy enhanced shots, stabilizers, and the reload button to use the extra ammunitions and pickups found, all the charge animations feel vauge, tension, and heart-rate functions seen in other games might help to add a sight or meter which could be interesting ON/OFF, if not at least a beacon can be fired which distracts enemies and can be remote controlled explosion or blinding light, sticky grenade, or bioluminesant biodegradable, all arrows also should be recovered to be used again after shoot, at least the shafts can be recovered realixstically if the players have kunai and energy to make other arrow types on the fly, to use as quick melee ocasional blocking with bow and arrow until a energy shield or drone is added to the PARIS and each bow&arrow to feature a robotic slot, and pet which protects the users during shotting and reloading..

the cernos has a mode change but its not satisfying because it requires energy and heat is lost when changing modes, the same goes for charging up the arrows and picking up ammunition and mutation mods are a bit unsatisfactory, maybe while were here i can say that the bounties in earth and fortuna could feature arrow mods and some additional crystal blueprints revelant to the warframes found here and storylines so that we can add a few more skins and quivers or arrow types for the kids just starting up, using the crystals and grineer architechture to craft the new bows and mods.

 

Edited October 14, 2019 by SnakeBadger

[SnakeBadger]

• robotics for bow and arrow
• a new slot & shield fronts
• pets & reload cover, sight enhancements
• AOE and bounty rewards, close range combat, melee counters on primary/secondary passive guard, charges ammunition and energy enhances shots if avaliable, shafts recovered from enemies enhance reloading and multishots.
• enhanced arrow light up darkplaces with flame and LED tips, recovered with reload button or somethinglikethat, idk
• paralysing shots,  eel skin cetus and earth rewards, syndicate augments, and kitparts.
• jets and robotics for charging bows, some thrusters and gas is automaticspeed up charge and shotrate with new meters, crit animation, and AOE enhance shots and block bullets while you shoot.
• players can pickup bow ammo regardless of weapontype, such as artemis stockparts, and blueprints on scan and mission rewards for crafting bowguns, and other types of shoot, mods, and special items.
• robotic arrows have features and can be crafted,
• foundry  bogen should be LARGER than normal weapons
•  arrows come from fortuna explode, can be shoot and mixed: HEXANON PICKUP
• , while cetus gets savage with nets, traps ,  largest bow recovered from story and missions.
• kit-shaft / arrows and gloves rewards from bounties and story
• Mining improved,
• NPC have crystal and energy enhanced weapons, while the kitguns and kitbow's later come with shields and types of enhancements, or later pets and rivens, corpus and syndicacy related augments.
• some magic animations, and charge realism or meter, cernos, turtle shield, wrist guards, and furax mods.
• thought of one amalgam shoot which has crystaline explosions and searing like bees continously explode over a firecraker AOE and blinding nearby enemies, based on the amount of time the players charge up their bows and the energy avaliable for the tools and secondary augments the shoot should aquise a few tricks, and daggers.
• Ember and Stone should focus on calcifying and creating brocades were the new metter to control the amount of energy and fusilage, while other shots were to scorch and explode, this one would harden enemies into bricks and surfaces made temporary hard, but the effects can be shield harming, so i dont know how a quiver would stay stabilized enough to channel 6 arrows into a hardshot when charging a glaze. 
  • Oberon' arrow creator, pops vegetation and random growth, mean while other powers and warframe specific ammo is added that use energy and charge up, some passive effects stake and create AOE effects, smoke, and useful in capturing areas or zones, quick scanner is used , or masking a shot with a timer and a distraction
  • Nekros and spiritualist crystals could punch-through enemies souls come out of their bodies and energy hits other enemies nearby based on the charge and proxy, the multishot also has other procs, maybe a robotics and meter additions can have a special attack added to some special bows, especially the artemis bow for ivara and inaros who have no melee special attacks or finishers that are unique, i like inaros but his abilities have some lenght, while the lininer attacks need electricity and status effects so that the enemies following cant chase you,
  • maybe archwing can get a new bow.
  • enemies dont have any bow/arrow features or protection from such, so to contrast there needs to be some arrow recoil on some animations and shoots to enhance the gameplay/reload, and equipment,  idk
  •  
  •  

Edited October 14, 2019 by SnakeBadger

[SnakeBadger]

On 2019-10-11 at 12:19 PM, R0AHN said:

I was thinking something like this too. I'd argue it shouldn't even be a mod but just a base quality of all bows, most likely only when at full charge. Just have the projectiles pass through the bubbles and not be affected by them.

Why? Because mechanically there isn't anything particularly special about bows except for the travel time and arrow drop. Giving bows bubble punchthrough would give them a specialized role. It gives a reason to use bows over other weapon types for at least one member of the party. The inherent design limitations of bows with slow multi-target kill and difficulty to hit (because they are not hitscan) mechanically balance out this utility; not everyone needs to use one but it helps the party if at least one person does.

If we need a Watsonian (in-universe) explanation for why this works, we can look to our good old friend of Dune, which gave reasons why knife-fighting would still be useful in the far-flung future. Heck, even just from the game itself - Tenno and melee weapons can pass through all bubbles just fine. The fast projectiles are deflected but the slow ones pass through.

yeah punchthrouygh and otherfeatures of chargedup bow attacks and some melee or counter attacks or shields to be added with recovery and passive modes on crouching, pickups, and allocating benefits for accurate shooting to be fun, there can be some animations added and trails or robotics which enhance the playbowgens.

[SnakeBadger]

On 2019-10-03 at 2:22 PM, Jauto said:

It is now my quest to see how high I can get the crit damage to be with the dread, as well as make another stalker ash build/outfit!

A good set of items to find in the enemies lockers intriging ammunition, and blueprints or kitparts would be interesting to find a part of a bow or skin/shaft with partiicular augments and bow/arrow related items, the mutation mod is not good enough to equip alone, i just wanna bring that up because its not that fun or particularly helpful with a status effe ct added that it changes on sliding and/or ammo type changes on critical hits, the dread is a great bowgun, but i would love it if it had some special features added to retrive or trigger some AOE or pickup strategy, which enhances armor and reload speed would be optimal but wont be enough of a rework/gimmick to sell the shoot, without further robotics and mods, the pet can retrive the ammunition and do in using team attacks, while the energy pellets shoot explode in a slash, or slugburst without requiring the physical pluck and puckup or vaccum effects, you can get players to really focus on recharging their shields and energizing their charged shots for some specular effects, animations and SFX and meter gameplay acting as a fortress and multishot meter, the paris and prime dont have that passive gameplay for the surfaces of each level and planet to be friendly or interesting there has to be some explosions and laser shots, as well as different shootype.

[SnakeBadger]

On 2019-10-02 at 8:02 AM, (NSW)Dreadmonster said:

Daikyu feels pretty much a Rubico Prime killer right now. Achieving 90 000 bleed tick with Amalgam Target Acquired and Hunter Munitions is pretty much over anything I seen. And that's prior riven. 

Changes I thought about to balance it:

Critical chance 34 -> 28

 

Everything seems pretty nice. Paris is now really enjoyable. 

somewhat boring to keep bow and arrow players happy you would have to add some secodary or kitgun features, pickups, and archwing modes, slide attack, or animation on close range combat which aughments the shields and recharge, there are no special pickup augments or tools for casual shooters to enjoy, even if your shoots are modded from 1 > 2 this is not really show stopping, so theres really no difference from having 2 arrows fired or reload features which could be convincing me to equip versus multishot and elemental effects, so status effects should go up with some new SFX and animations for bows to be completely awesome weapon, the MK-1 for example doesnt have enough aughments or rivens early on, so it should be workshipped in dojos and mission rewards that the bounties reward special bullets and enhancements for shooting without charging up shoots, and defensive robotics which also aughment charged and reloading for players augtomatically to keep them graby, like a helicopter or spining shot which expands on collision or those that can be triggered and recovered which can pop a small zone or tactical shield in a particular area with combining two landings, or charged shots to confine energy into each arrow, and magic.

At least ivara has a line shot and other tactical tools, but they require energy and ammo, so the goal should also be that the players can find special ammunition and items to craft and transform the numbers are not enough to make me happy, the sound effects and animations could really use some covering shield regenerator or, shooting gallery style zones where the players can use a meter when standing still, crouching on one of these circles, shoot AOE and enfeeblements.

the increase in damage is great otherwise

Edited October 14, 2019 by SnakeBadger

[SnakeBadger]

i would loved it if syndicate and story rewarded different augments and rivens for bows to be more popular in the market until new features and robotics are added the charged shots feel lacky somewhat need visual enhancements and AOE fields which can regenerate a meter or shields and enhance melee, while some special shots can use codex scanners like ninjas also explode or leave a sugra behind, non bow arrow users wont be impressed with our improvements until the arrow mutation mod features something else for the pets and warframe slots, we need some energy pickups to trigger some special,

• kitsbow for cetus to have more miners and fishermen, the bow must become popular and easy to craft and fit in with the wildlife, fishing, and minning programs with the incoming realkkjack update the realism for cetus and teamplay would benefit from players crafting in the openworld or at least collecting ammunition and tickets to trade for items/mods.

meanwhile fortuna can get robotic parts and mods which aughment the paris, cernos, and crossbows which are added to each bounty and missions in the planet, this way the slide, charge, and energy game is apparent, aoe and standing focused shots would be dominated with new visual and meter overlays, counters, and melee or secondary bows like finalfantasy that can be made with magnetics and robotics, thrusters, and enhanced quivers. shoot vine, arranged physics for recoil to cause fire, trigger alarms, and enemy enhancements per planet/tileset_weatherdots.

Edited October 14, 2019 by SnakeBadger

[SnakeBadger]

On 2019-09-21 at 1:51 PM, Miyabi-sama said:

Changing stats was a great move. That long waited buff is very welcome. I have almost lost faith but here we are, finally bows are hitting several dozen percents harder.

On the other side bows are mechanically challenging and this change will be most noticed by "bowlovers".

Bows themselves are suffering from long reload and draw speed. Sometimes it can be remedied by utility mods sacrificing strength in favor of swiftness because the cost of missing shots is very high. Potentially fatal. Having this in consideration, the game certainly doesn't lacking frames buffing fire rate so high even Daikyu feels as fast as Rakta Cernos.

Also the great feature is different bows are evidently performing better in different circumstances. Thus said, bringing Dread for Sortie lvl Ambulas was clearly a mistake since we've wasted nearly 20 minutes just to fail in the end, not even Lenz guy could carry us out. But! Having put a little thought and bringing a simple Paris Prime crit/rad build (no rivens) improved situation tenfold. Hence having different bows with different stats doesnt feel redundant, not to mention every bow has its own "flavor".

In summary, bows' position havent changed drastically (aside of Daikyu, but this gonna be a very different topic since Dai undergone complete rebranding). It is still a solid kind of weapons, beautiful and strong.

Nothing will bring you more satisfaction than an accidental double/triple headshots with a single arrow during aimglide.

statscreen is somewhat boring personally i would love to see prime overlays and category improvements to each shoot stat in the future the bow screen and coloring would be more interesting, featuaring some new music, and quiver & robotic options that are essential in picking up the bamboo and husk from dead enemies, leaving traps, and creating barriers or shields and explosions from pickups without worrying too much about secondary weapons and shots, the bow/arrow should be interesting.

[SnakeBadger]

On 2019-08-31 at 2:07 PM, Test-995 said:

...But honestly i'd want to see same arrow effect as other bows for artemis bow, more shiny = more fun for me.

Well yeah i know it's different topic.

yeah artimis bow should get some improved animations and sound effects to make the AOE and bullets count for something, the team mates should benefit, and it should create AOE pulsations, vibration traps, and item vortexes like a spider which maintain some status effects and octavian procs, i do like the idea of letting the artemis arrow create rifts and elemental effects and also some LED lamps