Community driven content to maximize DE sidecontent

[nokinoks]

Warframe needs content, the reason is because ALL games need content. The thing with a PvE game is that most content are the same and it is simply human nature to reject routine in a stimuli driven activity. If this isn't true, then just stare at a blank wall then call that proper fun. In any case please don't scream bloody murder if you disagree because as you can see (or not see) there is a lack of exclamation marks in my statement. I do think Warframe is lacking in content, to be precise, Warframe is lacking in dynamic content, but I don't think it's the end of the world. There is always a middle path and it's always those in the extreme that ruin every discussion.

So I'm here to make a case that 1.) a comprehensive PvP of some sort is one of the best ways to go and 2.) a community driven content creation system is another. BOTH are difficult but both are also worth discussing at the least.

 

1.) PvP is dynamic content and in a stimuli driven activity like gaming, dynamic content is always welcome. Now of course Warframe has PvP but Warframe also has "it's there and it's dead on arrival but it's there" syndrome towards support for previous content so current WF PvP doesn't really count in any significant way. WF needs content and if DE invests in a proper PvP, market it to the right people in the community, market it so that it doesn't alienate the other part of the community (not that it needs to be inclusive to the whole community but rather it will be marketed properly so the whole community knows what it is and the commitment to PvE is still the same) then PvP will make its own content due to the dynamic nature of PvP and that should help with WF content. Specially since PvP is pretty much a blank state, will it be operators only? WF but guns only like the previous Dog Days? Will it be a board game like what happened with DOTA and auto chess? A card game like poker? It can be anything! It can even be a revamped lunaro but I think going small is the way to go. BUT there must be support for it!

 

2.) DE makes a decent amount of sidegames, why not give it to the community? I've said it before that DE makes content with great potential but they leave it that way, just at potential. Frame Fighter could've been great! But they made it friends only, there's no pub game for it and you even have to (semi)grind to get the characters but NOT through playing Frame Fighter, how does that make sense? So if DE doesn't want to support this, then give it to the community, provide a sort of content creator for the community and allow a market to pop up based solely on the side games. Allow people to mess with it and again while that's difficult, at least it's dynamic. Dynamic content has longevity compared to static content simply due to its nature and its compatibility with human nature. Zephy flappy bird? Why not allow the community to turn that into a sidescroller? The current shawzin? Allow people to make comprehensive music for it and turn that into an actual music game.

 

There are many ways this can be "bad", people will say that "this is modding and that won't work because of this and that" but DE is a multi-million dollar company and they can find a way to execute this where it can work. The truth is I don't mind content drought that much because I just don't play. I log in and that's that. But I still love this game and I just want to express that DE is making content anyway, just maximize it so that it works on their favor instead of being throwaway side crap. Now if they don't want to support it then just make it a community driven content, and Valve (steam) made its money that way too, by allowing community driven content then buying the best of those content.

 

Well, it's worth discussing at least. Though sadly from what I've heard, DE doesn't really read the forums 😞

[CreamedSoda]

I seriously think a entire change to conclave where we aren't controlling frames at all and instead we simply join one of two teams. Corpus or Grineer, give it a gears of war style combat where you roll around, cover to cover and take shots when you can and it'd be like 20x better. They already have the models and animations needed and the engine CAN do it.

[(NSW)Sk0rp1on]

6 minutes ago, Whitestrake0 said:

I seriously think a entire change to conclave where we aren't controlling frames at all and instead we simply join one of two teams. Corpus or Grineer, give it a gears of war style combat where you roll around, cover to cover and take shots when you can and it'd be like 20x better. They already have the models and animations needed and the engine CAN do it.

This would actually be cool. Also a good opportunity to explore various types of lore.

Another possibility would be playing as a faction operative. Finally something to do in Iron Wake.

[nokinoks]

11 hours ago, Whitestrake0 said:

I seriously think a entire change to conclave where we aren't controlling frames at all and instead we simply join one of two teams. Corpus or Grineer, give it a gears of war style combat where you roll around, cover to cover and take shots when you can and it'd be like 20x better. They already have the models and animations needed and the engine CAN do it.

holy crap this sounds great! I want to be an ambulas! *makes mechanical chicken noises*

[Hypernaut1]

I think a moba style PvPvE mode could work in WF. Where we attack another players troops, while defending our own

[Gabbynaru]

Hard no for PvP. That's not content. You said " it is simply human nature to reject routine in a stimuli driven activity" then suggested PvP... How does that make sense to you, when PvP is the most repetitive piece of "content" you can have.

As for point 2: Devstream 81, DE promises "Mission Customizer", which promised "adding a mission maker for Clan Warlords to customize their Warframe experience." Almost 3 years later, NOTHING on that front. So, as much as I would like something like Neverwinter's mission maker in the game... doesn't seem likely to happen any time soon.

[nokinoks]

1 minute ago, Hypernaut1 said:

I think a moba style PvPvE mode could work in WF. Where we attack another players troops, while defending our own

that could also work, though at this point the biggest challenge to WF's PvP are the WFs themselves. It's impossible to balance them and without huge hoops to jump thru the meta for this PvPvE will probably just the same as the current meta of nukers so it might become a huge resource investment for DE but similar experience for  us players so in the end it might also end up just being "static" content.

 

That's just my thoughts on WFs being allowed normal function tho.

[nokinoks]

Just now, Gabbynaru said:

Hard no for PvP. That's not content. You said " it is simply human nature to reject routine in a stimuli driven activity" then suggested PvP... How does that make sense to you, when PvP is the most repetitive piece of "content" you can have.

As for point 2: Devstream 81, DE promises "Mission Customizer", which promised "adding a mission maker for Clan Warlords to customize their Warframe experience." Almost 3 years later, NOTHING on that front. So, as much as I would like something like Neverwinter's mission maker in the game... doesn't seem likely to happen any time soon.

I don't really find anything negative towards people who don't like the idea of PvP though I'd like to point out that PvP has repetitive elements but is not repetitive where it counts. I mean you can't turn your brain off in most PvP games (assuming the matching is done decently).

[Sandomere]

12 hours ago, Whitestrake0 said:

I seriously think a entire change to conclave where we aren't controlling frames at all and instead we simply join one of two teams. Corpus or Grineer, give it a gears of war style combat where you roll around, cover to cover and take shots when you can and it'd be like 20x better. They already have the models and animations needed and the engine CAN do it.

Regular weapons and mods are too powerful for pvp, so i think that would be a good time to farm conclave mods.

[Gabbynaru]

28 minutes ago, nokinoks said:

I don't really find anything negative towards people who don't like the idea of PvP though I'd like to point out that PvP has repetitive elements but is not repetitive where it counts. I mean you can't turn your brain off in most PvP games (assuming the matching is done decently).

Still repetitive. You play it once, twice, maybe three times, and you've seen all the arena and gameplay has to offer, and from that point on it's just repetition. That's not lasting content. Players spazzing all over the place is not content. Cause if they were, well, they already spazz all over the place in normal missions anyway. Just cause they don't follow patterns doesn't make them good content. Infuriating, more like. And at the end of the day, the end goal is the same: kill them. I can do that with less infuriating enemies in normal missions, so why should I bother when the pvp doesn't offer anything new?

[Helch0rn]

13 hours ago, nokinoks said:

Warframe needs content, the reason is because ALL games need content. The thing with a PvE game is that most content are the same and it is simply human nature to reject routine in a stimuli driven activity. If this isn't true, then just stare at a blank wall then call that proper fun. In any case please don't scream bloody murder if you disagree because as you can see (or not see) there is a lack of exclamation marks in my statement. I do think Warframe is lacking in content, to be precise, Warframe is lacking in dynamic content, but I don't think it's the end of the world. There is always a middle path and it's always those in the extreme that ruin every discussion.

So I'm here to make a case that 1.) a comprehensive PvP of some sort is one of the best ways to go and 2.) a community driven content creation system is another. BOTH are difficult but both are also worth discussing at the least.

 

1.) PvP is dynamic content and in a stimuli driven activity like gaming, dynamic content is always welcome. Now of course Warframe has PvP but Warframe also has "it's there and it's dead on arrival but it's there" syndrome towards support for previous content so current WF PvP doesn't really count in any significant way. WF needs content and if DE invests in a proper PvP, market it to the right people in the community, market it so that it doesn't alienate the other part of the community (not that it needs to be inclusive to the whole community but rather it will be marketed properly so the whole community knows what it is and the commitment to PvE is still the same) then PvP will make its own content due to the dynamic nature of PvP and that should help with WF content. Specially since PvP is pretty much a blank state, will it be operators only? WF but guns only like the previous Dog Days? Will it be a board game like what happened with DOTA and auto chess? A card game like poker? It can be anything! It can even be a revamped lunaro but I think going small is the way to go. BUT there must be support for it!

PvP is a stillbirth, has always been a stillbirth and will most likely be a stillbirth for all eternity

why? it sucks. it's laggy, movement, while nice in PvE, is too fast for PvP and you don't get resources while duking it out with other players, anything you do in PvP was little to no effect on your progress along the star chart

Quote

2.) DE makes a decent amount of sidegames, why not give it to the community? I've said it before that DE makes content with great potential but they leave it that way, just at potential. Frame Fighter could've been great! But they made it friends only, there's no pub game for it and you even have to (semi)grind to get the characters but NOT through playing Frame Fighter, how does that make sense? So if DE doesn't want to support this, then give it to the community, provide a sort of content creator for the community and allow a market to pop up based solely on the side games. Allow people to mess with it and again while that's difficult, at least it's dynamic. Dynamic content has longevity compared to static content simply due to its nature and its compatibility with human nature. Zephy flappy bird? Why not allow the community to turn that into a sidescroller? The current shawzin? Allow people to make comprehensive music for it and turn that into an actual music game.

I hardly doubt that even with your suggestions the player retention would be better.

these mini games are fun little gimmicks and not meant to keep players in the game long term.

 

also there is a sidescroller already. look up Wyrmius

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There are many ways this can be "bad", people will say that "this is modding and that won't work because of this and that" but DE is a multi-million dollar company and they can find a way to execute this where it can work. The truth is I don't mind content drought that much because I just don't play. I log in and that's that. But I still love this game and I just want to express that DE is making content anyway, just maximize it so that it works on their favor instead of being throwaway side crap. Now if they don't want to support it then just make it a community driven content, and Valve (steam) made its money that way too, by allowing community driven content then buying the best of those content.

the thing is: all of this requires develeoper time (and most likely a lot of it) and ever since the Second Dream DE is moving on to bigger and bigger projects that need all of their devs.

if they would take dwvelopers off of the big things to make your suggestions we would end up waiting even longer on the good stuff while ideas like yours would also take ages to be implemented

Quote

Well, it's worth discussing at least. Though sadly from what I've heard, DE doesn't really read the forums 😞

DE does read the forums. just not general discussion.

if you want to suggest something I would recommend the Suggestions section, because DE actually reads it

Edited August 31, 2019 by Helch0rn

[nokinoks]

8 hours ago, Sandomere said:

Regular weapons and mods are too powerful for pvp, so i think that would be a good time to farm conclave mods.

just my opinion but if the PvP will be a shootout, I'd actually prefer no grinding, I mean we have tons of that already. That being said I've only tried conclave a few times so I don't know the grind mechanics behind it. There are always no players O.O

[nokinoks]

8 hours ago, Gabbynaru said:

Still repetitive. You play it once, twice, maybe three times, and you've seen all the arena and gameplay has to offer, and from that point on it's just repetition. That's not lasting content. Players spazzing all over the place is not content. Cause if they were, well, they already spazz all over the place in normal missions anyway. Just cause they don't follow patterns doesn't make them good content. Infuriating, more like. And at the end of the day, the end goal is the same: kill them. I can do that with less infuriating enemies in normal missions, so why should I bother when the pvp doesn't offer anything new?

Mobas beg to differ though, I mean I can understand what you're saying but what I don't understand is why you think it is the same to such degree. People have seen everything Mobas have to offer but they are still going strong, because dynamic content has longevity. There's a difference between killing a mob and another player, to speak without acknowledging thresholds is just mind boggling. 

[(XBOX)zThulsaDoomz]

I find it quite amusing when people say they don't read the forums, when we all know the exact opposite to be true.

[(PSN)sweatshawp]

15 hours ago, Gabbynaru said:

Hard no for PvP. That's not content. You said " it is simply human nature to reject routine in a stimuli driven activity" then suggested PvP... How does that make sense to you, when PvP is the most repetitive piece of "content" you can have.

As for point 2: Devstream 81, DE promises "Mission Customizer", which promised "adding a mission maker for Clan Warlords to customize their Warframe experience." Almost 3 years later, NOTHING on that front. So, as much as I would like something like Neverwinter's mission maker in the game... doesn't seem likely to happen any time soon.

While PvP may be deemed as repetitive many people enjoy PvP because of its competitive aspects and ability to show off skill and something to work towards so PvP and good PvP could benefit warframe alot

[(XBOX)EPOSSTYLE]

On 2019-08-30 at 11:13 PM, Whitestrake0 said:

I seriously think a entire change to conclave where we aren't controlling frames at all and instead we simply join one of two teams. Corpus or Grineer, give it a gears of war style combat where you roll around, cover to cover and take shots when you can and it'd be like 20x better. They already have the models and animations needed and the engine CAN do it.

Dark sectors MP,  its already in the DNA 

[nokinoks]

On 2019-09-01 at 9:28 AM, (XB1)Thy Divinity said:

I find it quite amusing when people say they don't read the forums, when we all know the exact opposite to be true.

I've posted here before and a mod said something like that. Well who am I supposed to believe? My post got deleted because I asked if DE reads the forums and the mod deleted it because some people weren't following the forum rules. Now iirc the mod said that the devs don't read the forums, so if only the mods read then what exactly does that mean? In any case I never had the complete answer to my question as my post was deleted but the mod did say that the devs didn't read.

[(XBOX)zThulsaDoomz]

10 hours ago, nokinoks said:

I've posted here before and a mod said something like that. Well who am I supposed to believe? My post got deleted because I asked if DE reads the forums and the mod deleted it because some people weren't following the forum rules. Now iirc the mod said that the devs don't read the forums, so if only the mods read then what exactly does that mean? In any case I never had the complete answer to my question as my post was deleted but the mod did say that the devs didn't read.

We have literally seen a post from Rebecca in the past month in general discussion refuting claims that they do not read the forums, and yet another gathering feedback about possible rewards for certain content in the exact same week.  Watch a dev stream if you want proof positive yourself, as they mention forums posts and questions quite often.

Edited September 4, 2019 by (XB1)Thy Divinity

[Methanoid]

altho the actual game is garbage these days, star trek online did something pretty decent when they added the foundry system allowing for player created content, if DE made the tools to allow players to make their own maps and or missions then that would certainly help.

[nokinoks]

On 2019-09-05 at 3:21 AM, Methanoid said:

altho the actual game is garbage these days, star trek online did something pretty decent when they added the foundry system allowing for player created content, if DE made the tools to allow players to make their own maps and or missions then that would certainly help.

yeah, and if the tools produce only a notepad setting (i.e. that configuration of maps and things inside it are stored as text and read by the game to know where to put stuff) then there won't even be a problem of downloading anything. Since it's just a setting in the end then it can just load like a normal map during loading.

[Hypernaut1]

It would be cool if clans could create elite alerts for the rest of us to play. 

[sinnae]

PvP can keep a fairly bare-bones game going for years, ten years...if the underlying framework for the PvP is solid. TF2 and CS have proven this. PvP has inherent replayability because you're playing other humans - you don't need fancy procedurally-generated open worlds, or tileset reworks, or new and smarter AI...just a reliable engine, reliable high-tick servers, sensible MMR/SBMM systems, frequent and fair balance changes, and occasional content drops like a new weapon or new hero/class.

You also can't just shoehorn it onto a pre-existing PvE game and expect the same playerbase to carry over. You might succeed in attracting new PvP players but you might lose some of your old players.

I think Warframe kind of loses big-time on the whole reliable engine/servers thing and struggles with the whole PvE thing. If you want Conclave to go mainstream there would have to be dedicated servers for everyone, not just a few community-run ones. The PvE thing is...workable, maybe. But there would be a lot of backlash in the interim from PvE players resenting all these resources being spent on PvP.

[Nichivo]

I'd like to see some 5v5 capture the flag(cephalon). Granted, Teshin should put and end to the balance issues, and hand everyone a Dueling Frame complete with Dueling Rifle, Pistol, and Sword. Dueling gear would level the playing field much as possible. I'd also like them to invest more in Lunaro.

The downside is the same for any FPS type PvP game, you have to actively deal with those who would create bots for cheating, and other toxic nonsense. Maintain Servers. All of which is probably why DE doesn't want to invest time in PvP, and I can't blame them.

 

[nokinoks]

On 2019-09-06 at 11:15 PM, sinnae said:

PvP can keep a fairly bare-bones game going for years, ten years...if the underlying framework for the PvP is solid. TF2 and CS have proven this. PvP has inherent replayability because you're playing other humans - you don't need fancy procedurally-generated open worlds, or tileset reworks, or new and smarter AI...just a reliable engine, reliable high-tick servers, sensible MMR/SBMM systems, frequent and fair balance changes, and occasional content drops like a new weapon or new hero/class.

You also can't just shoehorn it onto a pre-existing PvE game and expect the same playerbase to carry over. You might succeed in attracting new PvP players but you might lose some of your old players.

I think Warframe kind of loses big-time on the whole reliable engine/servers thing and struggles with the whole PvE thing. If you want Conclave to go mainstream there would have to be dedicated servers for everyone, not just a few community-run ones. The PvE thing is...workable, maybe. But there would be a lot of backlash in the interim from PvE players resenting all these resources being spent on PvP.

yeah now that I think about it, maybe the biggest reason why DE doesn't want to do PvP is because of server costs. I really think despite the vocal minority -- most people are fine with PvP and would probably even enjoy it if it was done right. People enjoyed Dog Days, no frame abilities, no mods, no nothing. I think even though WF is mostly PvE, the community has gotten so large that PvP is now necessary.

[FoxyKabam]

 

1 hour ago, nokinoks said:

maybe the biggest reason why DE doesn't want to do PvP is because of server costs

could be, it would also be a lot of work that could of gone towards more PvE content, same content that's been keeping the game going for years now, if I was DE I wouldn't risk it, too much work for too little gain and the high risk of backlash.

1 hour ago, nokinoks said:

I really think despite the vocal minority -- most people are fine with PvP and would probably even enjoy it if it was done right.

 I'd argue its a vocal minority and a silent majority against pvp, at least in warframe's case. I remember seeing a dev stream a while back showing player numbers per mission/game mode, conclave had 1% iirc, agree with you on the second part though, done right warframe with proper pvp is fun to imagine.

 

1 hour ago, nokinoks said:

the community has gotten so large that PvP is now necessary.

made me spit my tea out, boss thought I was choking

thank you for the laugh, my work day has been pretty not good.