ThumpumGood Posted August 31, 2019 Share Posted August 31, 2019 4 hours ago, Knight_Ex said: Wooo, touchy subject I know, but in light of the recent update and looking at the store, aura forma bundle and eidolon lenses, doesn't seem that big of a deal? However these are extremely rare drops in the game, because people were complaining DE decided to appease the wallet warriors, we already have boosters in game, and I understand the argument of P2W in a PVE game not being relevant however there are people that dedicate time and effort into farming these things, for DE to just pop them on the store and says "Hey guys, give us money and we will give you these rare drops", is quite a bit disheartening, not because I don't want this available to other people, I just don't want to see a habit of DE meeting complaints with "Oh lets just throw it on the store", whats next? Umbra forma? Never has, never will and isnt any pay to win in WF. People pay money to support the game, buy things they dont want to grind for or to get fashion items. There is nothing.... NOTHING in this game that cant be had for free that is required to play the game. Not, frames, not weapons and not locations. It may be P2FF (Pay to fast forward) But it's all there toi be had if you grind for it. Elderscrolls, Eve, Dungeons and Dragons Online, Everquest (games I have played) ALL Have content you cant access without paying. Warframe does not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rogunz Posted August 31, 2019 Share Posted August 31, 2019 1 hour ago, uAir said: Warframe is not grindy at all right now. If you think it's hard to get focus you're doing it wrong. Focus is fine to get if you like doing eidolons. If you don't you are stuck playing ESO with the same frame and the same single weapon. If you want to use anything else you have to spend a ton of time grinding bounties so you can stick a new lens in it and if you want to play anything else you aren't going to get any real amount of focus even if you are constantly chasing the orb. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kouden Posted August 31, 2019 Share Posted August 31, 2019 vor 5 Stunden schrieb Knight_Ex: Wooo, touchy subject I know, but in light of the recent update and looking at the store, aura forma bundle and eidolon lenses, doesn't seem that big of a deal? However these are extremely rare drops in the game, because people were complaining DE decided to appease the wallet warriors, we already have boosters in game, and I understand the argument of P2W in a PVE game not being relevant however there are people that dedicate time and effort into farming these things, for DE to just pop them on the store and says "Hey guys, give us money and we will give you these rare drops", is quite a bit disheartening, not because I don't want this available to other people, I just don't want to see a habit of DE meeting complaints with "Oh lets just throw it on the store", whats next? Umbra forma? i think they actually did that to make room for changes in the loot tables aswell, besides there are some Tenno who rather skip the wait for it to drop and get the lenses from the market so they skip the farm and RNG. I dont see that as p2w, but rather as p2pf ( pay 2 progress faster ) ^_^ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SenorClipClop Posted August 31, 2019 Share Posted August 31, 2019 4 hours ago, Jarriaga said: DE started selling Ephemera with Wukong Prime, and now the Aura Forma. So there's a precendent to believe they will slowly start selling away content that is gated behind Arbitrations in order to appease players who may not want to play and grind for so long, or can't be bothered to complete the Archwing missions. Wukong's Ephemera was part of a PA cosmetic and was never available through any other means. I get that all the other Ephemera (barring Fae Step and Lotus) are exclusively gotten through in-game efforts, but this game is no stranger to having some cosmetics be gameplay-exclusive and some be Market-exclusive. The Prisma cosmetics (and other Baro accesories) are good examples of this. And while DE certainly could start selling Ephemera for Plat, I think "precedent" is a bit too strong a word to be using here. Try "fear". 4 hours ago, Jarriaga said: You are grossly overestimating the number of players who stay long enough and dedicate themselves to the game enough as to complete every single mission node in the entire game to unlock Arbitrations. I think you're misappropriating the usefulness of Aura Forma here. Aura Forma are a pretty late-game item. In order for them to be worth using on a frame, you have to have multiple builds with varying Aura mods of differing Polarities, all struggling for Mod space. Aura Forma are the answer to making both your Spider/Melt Equinox and your Adaptive Tanquinox build work without giving up an Umbral/Prime mod for a regular mod or just crafting another copy of the frame. These are not things the average player of relative newness is concerned about. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(XBOX)Knight Raime Posted August 31, 2019 Share Posted August 31, 2019 Considering everything you can buy with plat is more like a shortcut then actually making your gameplay better and the fact that the premium currency is more than easily obtainable in game no I wouldn't say so. The game is stupidly easy on it's own without min max things like aura forma and top tier lenses. I've yet to max out a focus tree since it became a thing and I still get by on what i've put into zenurik on my own. And I don't even grind for focus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OvisCaedo Posted August 31, 2019 Share Posted August 31, 2019 (edited) What? No. I mean, they've moved in the direction of almost all of their updates being garbage, and being almost perpetually out of touch with the game, but certainly never pay to win. Aura formas have barely any use and the entire focus system is horrendous. Their perpetual doubling down on it (despite having claimed before there would be a whole big rework to how it's earned!) seems more concerning to me than the ability to pay 80 plat to skip out on grinding the second worst content they ever put into the game, in order to make... other, ill-conceived grinds take less time each day. Edited August 31, 2019 by OvisCaedo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
o0Despair0o Posted August 31, 2019 Share Posted August 31, 2019 5 hours ago, Knight_Ex said: whats next? Umbra forma? I wouldn't complain if they put the Operator suit from Nightwave on the store. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nslay Posted August 31, 2019 Share Posted August 31, 2019 Strictly speaking, Warframe has always been pay-to-win by the very definition of pay-to-win. Quote In some games, players who are willing to pay for special items or downloadable content may be able to gain an advantage over those playing for free who might otherwise need to spend time progressing in order to unlock said items. In general a game is considered pay-to-win when a player can gain any gameplay advantage over his non-paying peers. Such games are called "pay-to-win" by critics. Examples of pay-to-win (bold text) include: Boosters, Prime Access and beginner packs (yes, no matter how basic these beginner packs are). Reference: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free-to-play#Pay-to-win Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hypernaut1 Posted August 31, 2019 Share Posted August 31, 2019 2 hours ago, (XB1)Rust Plague said: Never pay for stuff you can get free. Fools are easly parted from there money. Well, the plat I would spend has been free for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)FriendSharkey Posted August 31, 2019 Share Posted August 31, 2019 Well if we wanted to test that theory then DE should move the Aura Forma to the Arbiters of Hexus store and allow players who put the time in to purchase them with Vitus Essences...Of course that means DE would make it like 200 per 1...but I'd take that over the RNG drop chance of .000000000000000001 percent... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yagamilight123 Posted August 31, 2019 Share Posted August 31, 2019 hace 6 horas, Knight_Ex dijo: Wooo, touchy subject I know, but in light of the recent update and looking at the store, aura forma bundle and eidolon lenses, doesn't seem that big of a deal? However these are extremely rare drops in the game, because people were complaining DE decided to appease the wallet warriors, we already have boosters in game, and I understand the argument of P2W in a PVE game not being relevant however there are people that dedicate time and effort into farming these things, for DE to just pop them on the store and says "Hey guys, give us money and we will give you these rare drops", is quite a bit disheartening, not because I don't want this available to other people, I just don't want to see a habit of DE meeting complaints with "Oh lets just throw it on the store", whats next? Umbra forma? Why people have such a hard time understanding the term "P2W" .... you can farm it without using money ? yes ? , so its not P2W .... as simple as that . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeMonkey Posted August 31, 2019 Share Posted August 31, 2019 1 hour ago, nslay said: Strictly speaking, Warframe has always been pay-to-win by the very definition of pay-to-win. Examples of pay-to-win (bold text) include: Boosters, Prime Access and beginner packs (yes, no matter how basic these beginner packs are). Reference: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free-to-play#Pay-to-win The context of that section is regarding competition and competitive play, as seen in the cited games "World of Tanks, Starcraft 2 and Dota". 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrashSpider Posted August 31, 2019 Share Posted August 31, 2019 considering we most of the thing in this game can be grind for, nah. Only thing Warframe want out of you is your time, hence (depending) rng messing with you, but that another subject all together. So only thing that you're paying is getting things quicker. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)deathwolfclaw666 Posted August 31, 2019 Share Posted August 31, 2019 Depending on your definition of P2W for some people it has been P2W for years. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeathDweller Posted August 31, 2019 Share Posted August 31, 2019 13 minutes ago, DeMonkey said: The context of that section is regarding competition and competitive play, as seen in the cited games "World of Tanks, Starcraft 2 and Dota". It's not about competition.As the article even says it is when bying players are given a gameplay advantage over non-paying that have to grind for example.Prime access(the Frame) and bundles with weapons are a gameplay advantage.There are many games, pve or pvevp that can be considered p2w in a way, also having grinding alternatives and aren't competitive. Also when the term was invented it was to describe games that had weapons for example that could only be bought but through the years grinding was added to be more fair but the term remained. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeMonkey Posted August 31, 2019 Share Posted August 31, 2019 2 minutes ago, DeathDweller said: It's not about competition. The section you linked refers exclusively to PvP games so... 2 minutes ago, DeathDweller said: Prime access(the Frame) and bundles with weapons are a gameplay advantage That's entirely subjective. New stuff is not a gameplay advantage, not in a game like Warframe where everything and everyone is so overpowered that whether something is "better" than something else is largely incomprehensible. Even Primes, for all their gameplay advantages in the form of stat buffs, are largely irrelevant. Is Wukong Prime better than Mirage Prime? Did I get a gameplay advantage by purchasing him? No, it's just a different way of "winning" the game, which if you want to get technical is just a case of reaching rotation C in whatever mission you're in. Every frame is capable of that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeathDweller Posted August 31, 2019 Share Posted August 31, 2019 Just now, DeMonkey said: The section you linked refers exclusively to PvP games so... That's entirely subjective. New stuff is not a gameplay advantage, not in a game like Warframe where everything and everyone is so overpowered that whether something is "better" than something else is largely incomprehensible. Even Primes, for all their gameplay advantages in the form of stat buffs, are largely irrelevant. Is Wukong Prime better than Mirage Prime? Did I get a gameplay advantage by purchasing him? No, it's just a different way of "winning" the game, which if you want to get technical is just a case of reaching rotation C in whatever mission you're in. Every frame is capable of that. While i agree that the gear itself is subjective, Frames and weapons give MR and MR gives advantages like more slots, standing etc, resulting in a bying player to progress faster in the game.It's like the founders thing, they'll be always one step ahead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeMonkey Posted August 31, 2019 Share Posted August 31, 2019 4 minutes ago, DeathDweller said: While i agree that the gear itself is subjective, Frames and weapons give MR and MR gives advantages like more slots, standing etc, resulting in a bying player to progress faster in the game.It's like the founders thing, they'll be always one step ahead. Outside of additional storage and slightly higher caps I'm not seeing much in the way of gameplay advantages for Mastery Rank. I get another load out slot maybe, can carry another 100 traces I'll never reach and another trade I won't use etc. Can you elaborate on the actual gameplay benefits for MR that you feel allow say, a MR27 to have an in mission advantage over a MR20? And why is it an advantage over another player when the game is cooperative? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WoodedSkate89 Posted August 31, 2019 Share Posted August 31, 2019 Warframe kinda is p2w. But everything you can buy you can grind for. (Except for vaulted primes) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeathDweller Posted August 31, 2019 Share Posted August 31, 2019 Just now, DeMonkey said: Outside of additional storage and slightly higher caps I'm not seeing much in the way of gameplay advantages for Mastery Rank. I get another load out slot maybe, can carry another 100 traces I'll never reach and another trade I won't use etc. Can you elaborate on the actual gameplay benefits for MR that you feel allow say, a MR27 to have an in mission advantage over a MR20? And why is it an advantage over another player when the game is cooperative? 1000 standing is 7000 per week, depending on your MR, this can be enough to buy you that new amp for example faster and experience Eidolons before the guy that has to wait 3 days for his frame to finish crafting and then lv it to reach your MR and have that 7000 per week and this goes like domino.Still is an advantage over you, to reach the end of the game first, doesn't have to be pvp and dominate you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FierceRadiance Posted August 31, 2019 Share Posted August 31, 2019 OP, before you make any claim of something making the game "Pay To Win"....can you share with us your definition of "win"? I'm not sure Warframe HAS a "win" state, but if you believe it does, please describe it for us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BethTheBean Posted August 31, 2019 Share Posted August 31, 2019 7 hours ago, Knight_Ex said: Wooo, touchy subject I know, but in light of the recent update and looking at the store, aura forma bundle and eidolon lenses, doesn't seem that big of a deal? However these are extremely rare drops in the game, because people were complaining DE decided to appease the wallet warriors, we already have boosters in game, and I understand the argument of P2W in a PVE game not being relevant however there are people that dedicate time and effort into farming these things, for DE to just pop them on the store and says "Hey guys, give us money and we will give you these rare drops", is quite a bit disheartening, not because I don't want this available to other people, I just don't want to see a habit of DE meeting complaints with "Oh lets just throw it on the store", whats next? Umbra forma? That's not what "P2W" means. None of these items cause you to trump everyone else. Anyone can obtain them within a reasonable amount of farming. The market is there for convenience. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uan91 Posted August 31, 2019 Share Posted August 31, 2019 Forma Is available in market and in game, why Is It a big del with Aura Forma? I can't see any difference. Also OP can you please explain what are you "winnibg" with the Word p2w? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YouJustMetYourDeath Posted August 31, 2019 Share Posted August 31, 2019 It's not difficult to farm those i farmed all gauss parts and all his weapons and the lua lens in 2 days so its way easier than you think xD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SneakyErvin Posted August 31, 2019 Share Posted August 31, 2019 48 minutes ago, DeathDweller said: While i agree that the gear itself is subjective, Frames and weapons give MR and MR gives advantages like more slots, standing etc, resulting in a bying player to progress faster in the game.It's like the founders thing, they'll be always one step ahead. But you gain no advantage over other players with it, since there is no competition except the one you make up in your head. And that idea of competition is not intended in the design of the game i.e full PvE games. WF being a full PvE game means that there can be no pay to win because there is no one you "win" over because there is no competative aspect in the design of the game. PvP games are a whole different story. If a new hero in a pvp focused game gets released and a non-payer needs to grind for it then you have P2W if it is sellable in the cash shop, especially if it brings advatages in the field of play over exsisting heroes. Same if there would be a game where you can buy seasonal equipment that gives better stats over the previous season i.e WoW style with different tiers of arena gear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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