Is DE starting to turn in the direction of P2W?

[Rakosta_Kai]

53 minutes ago, DeathDweller said:

While i agree that the gear itself is subjective, Frames and weapons give MR and MR gives advantages like more slots, standing etc, resulting in a bying player to progress faster in the game.It's like the founders thing, they'll be always one step ahead.

MR is functionally meaningless past a certain lvl and really always has been. Likewise, the levels MR can be prohibitive for are easily reached without having to make purchases aside from the occasional slots.

That doesn't make Warframe a distinctly p2w game...

Rivens and the lack of a game currency that's tradeable and set apart from the premium currency can seem to blur that line a bit though in my opinion.

Still, I don't think the game is p2w insomuch as it is p4c. 

[nslay]

1 hour ago, DeMonkey said:

The context of that section is regarding competition and competitive play, as seen in the cited games "World of Tanks, Starcraft 2 and Dota".

Yeah, it later cites those as examples for or against, but that section makes no specific mention of competitive/PVP/PVE games anywhere.

Frankly, I have no problem if someone with very little time wants to buy a booster or Prime Access instead of grinding in this grinding game. But I'm not doing to deny that someone buying Prime Access or a booster isn't paying to win. I mean boosters aside, Prime Access gives players instant access to endgame frames and weapons (sometimes!). There is no question in my mind that buying Prime Access isn't pay-to-win (especially if I'm a brand new player on day 1).

[DeathDweller]

24 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

But you gain no advantage over other players with it, since there is no competition except the one you make up in your head. And that idea of competition is not intended in the design of the game i.e full PvE games. WF being a full PvE game means that there can be no pay to win because there is no one you "win" over because there is no competative aspect in the design of the game.

PvP games are a whole different story. If a new hero in a pvp focused game gets released and a non-payer needs to grind for it then you have P2W if it is sellable in the cash shop, especially if it brings advatages in the field of play over exsisting heroes. Same if there would be a game where you can buy seasonal equipment that gives better stats over the previous season i.e WoW style with different tiers of arena gear.

As i said before the advantage doesn't have to do with the type of game.Pay to "win" refers to the game itself, not the players.The way this is accomplished varies from game to game.Duel links for example is pure pvp game at it's core but getting the new cards first doesn't guarantee you victory over the others, just that you'll progress faster in the game.So it's a F2P with heavy P2W elements.

Or Drakensang, one of the games WF based it's F2P system, PVE on it's core has P2W elements.There you can say that it has PVP also, but then again doesn't WF?(I'm stretching this out)Sure it sucks, it's broken and not many play it but is there.If a weapon or  a Frame comes out and it's the new meta those who'll have it in PVP will dominate.

So in the end, unless we create a new term for every thing that comes out, we're stuck with the P2W term just not with the excact same meaning as in earlier years.WF is like Drakensang(F2P with P2W elements)just in a much smaller scale to be a problem.

@Padre_Akaisi believe i cover you in my last paragraph.

Edited August 31, 2019 by DeathDweller

[Rakosta_Kai]

9 minutes ago, DeathDweller said:

@Padre_Akaisi believe i cover you in my last paragraph.

You really didn't...

There has never been a piece of MR gated content that a player couldn't gain access to without the Founder's tag by design.

The only people griping about the difference in MR are the goofs who want the highest MR possible for bragging rights...Every other argument is ostensibly false.

[DeathDweller]

14 minutes ago, Padre_Akais said:

You really didn't...

There has never been a piece of MR gated content that a player couldn't gain access to without the Founder's tag by design.

The only people griping about the difference in MR are the goofs who want the highest MR possible for bragging rights...Every other argument is ostensibly false.

A player with MR from a certain point and after sure.But in lower MR is different, from my experience when i was 13 and Tridolon came out, i had to wait longer from a guy with 16, to get the amp or max syndicate etc so i could do Tridolon fast and farm arcanes etc.Until i went 16 i lost potential pl for example because the prices were lowered etc, the advantages and disadvantages varies in each game and in the end the only term that technically exists as of now to describe such things is P2W.

Edited September 1, 2019 by DeathDweller

[(PSN)Kakurine2]

I don't  personally consider the things you mention rare.  Nor do i consider the market cost reasonable.

Now if you could buy truly rare mods with plat from the market.  The rares from dragon keys, nightmare mods, mods from the silver grove guardian, etc.

The primed mods from baro. Primed chamber is another example.

Most of the markets items are cosmetic or utility.  De has a pretty fair system.

[Rakosta_Kai]

6 minutes ago, DeathDweller said:

A player with MR from a certain point and after sure.But in lower MR is different, from my experience when i was 13 and Tridolon came out, i had to wait longer from a guy with 16, to get the amp or max syndicate etc so i could do Tridolon fast and farm arcanes etc.Until i went 16 i lost potential pl for example because the prices were lowered etc, the advantages and disadvantages varies in each game and in the end the only term that technically exists as of now to describe such things is P2W.

At the point where that content became available, anyone here long enough to have Founder's gear was only in that MR lvl range by either choice or indifference.

There were millions of players of higher MR than you at that point...Millions.

Blaming Founders for your bad luck is just poor sport on your part.

That's coming from just one of many founders who never gave a crap about MR.

[DeathDweller]

Just now, Padre_Akais said:

At the point where that content became available, anyone here long enough to have Founder's gear was only in that MR lvl range by either choice or indifference.

There were millions of players of higher MR than you at that point...Millions.

Blaming Founders for your bad luck is just poor sport on your part.

That's coming from just one of many founders who never gave a crap about MR.

Did i blame Founders?I just put an example.My starting point wasn't high and low MR but 2 people of the same MR, 1 paying to lv up and the other not.

[White_Matter]

Umbra forma should definitely be a thing on the market 😄

 

Seriously though, there should be other ways of getting umbra forma. 

[Shinigami_Greed]

No.

[(PSN)Kakurine2]

So long as the super rare mods are not on the market for plat. The rest is free game in my opinion.

Prime stuff you grind or pay plat to other players.  Or support de with prime access / unvaultings.

Warframe really isn't a hardcore game.  If people got everything and are bored.  Take a break till the next major content patch.

[Rakosta_Kai]

54 minutes ago, DeathDweller said:

Did i blame Founders?I just put an example.My starting point wasn't high and low MR but 2 people of the same MR, 1 paying to lv up and the other not.

Depends...Why specifically comment to me about an issue I had never broached?

You offered a specious example, imo,  and asked that I respond to it directly...So I did.

Your point isn't that hard to derive when you make comments regarding Founders being P2W because of MR and then tell a hard luck story about how if you only had such a leg up you would have gotten the things you wanted when you wanted them.

The facts don't bear out your conclusions though as this game has never put MR gates where every player couldn't easily have reached it.

How is that P2W? ...It isn't.

Still feeling like you got me covered?

[Ramflax]

Warframe has always been, pay to get stuff faster. The paying has always been to avoid grind, yes things like eidolon lens are rare and the same could be said about the aura forma. But I personally have no issue with it. If they gate things from the market like that. It took this long for a rare item like eido lens to be made available. If they keep this notion of rarer 'new' items take X time to be added to the market to be just bought I see no issue. An example I can think of is at the end of the year after the 3rd series of night wave most likely, a lot of people would have 3 umbra formas. If at that point they made it a reward in like arbitration then a few months later a market purchase. I would see no issue with that transition.

[DeathDweller]

2 minutes ago, Padre_Akais said:

Depends...Why specifically comment to me about an issue I had never broached?

You offered a specious example, imo,  and asked that I respond to it directly...So I did.

Your point isn't that hard to derive when you make comments regarding Founders being P2W because of MR and then tell a hard luck story about how if you only had such a leg up you would have gotten the things you wanted when you wanted them.

The facts don't bear out your conclusions though as this game has never put MR gates where every player couldn't easily have reached it.

How is that P2W? ...It isn't.

Still feeling like you got me covered?

What are you talkin about?You replied to me first and while i was answering a guy and i quoted your name saying:

"So in the end, unless we create a new term for every thing that comes out, we're stuck with the P2W term just not with the excact same meaning as in earlier years.WF is like Drakensang(F2P with P2W elements)just in a much smaller scale to be a problem."In response to your:"That doesn't make Warframe a distinctly p2w game..." and "Still, I don't think the game is p2w insomuch as it is p4c."

We were practically saying the same thing so that's why i said i believe i covered you.The founder part was just an example(not even responding to you at that time)on how they have the same advantage to non-founders, not that they are P2W.Being founder isn't an ongoing option or even an ingame option.I believe you just got triggered from the word founder and got confused at what i was saying.

 

[George_PPS]

It’s not pay 2 win. It’s pay to speed up if one must progress faster. 

[Rakosta_Kai]

1 hour ago, DeathDweller said:

What are you talkin about?You replied to me first and while i was answering a guy and i quoted your name saying:

"So in the end, unless we create a new term for every thing that comes out, we're stuck with the P2W term just not with the excact same meaning as in earlier years.WF is like Drakensang(F2P with P2W elements)just in a much smaller scale to be a problem."In response to your:"That doesn't make Warframe a distinctly p2w game..." and "Still, I don't think the game is p2w insomuch as it is p4c."

We were practically saying the same thing so that's why i said i believe i covered you.The founder part was just an example(not even responding to you at that time)on how they have the same advantage to non-founders, not that they are P2W.Being founder isn't an ongoing option or even an ingame option.I believe you just got triggered from the word founder and got confused at what i was saying.

 

Nope... I don't see how your comments ever touched on what I said to begin with; leaving me to surmise your Founder commentary as referenced and requiring comment.

My comments specifically addressed that even in scenarios where the game blurs the lines the game still falls under the category of p4c.

If we are calling this game p2w then any game with a cash shop, level boosts, content skips,  or trading mechanics for premium currency is p2w too.

P4C/P2S are fairly common terms and is entirely different in all respects from p2w mechanics... They aren't interchangeable.

That would put tons of games in the crosshairs of what you call P2W that simply don't fit.

Players unwilling to invest in the game should be expecting to spend more time at it than the vested player.

That's not a new concept and is quite common in f2p games:

But the strategy doesn't, strictly speaking, make for P2W.

 

 

 

[844448]

So, since they're a rare drop, let's ask DE to pull them from the market. Let those people, free player or not suffer the grind together. Middle finger for those who don't want to work.

If any would not work, neither should he eat, right?

[DeathDweller]

1 hour ago, Padre_Akais said:

Nope... I don't see how your comments ever touched on what I said to begin with; leaving me to surmise your Founder commentary as referenced and requiring comment.

My comments specifically addressed that even in scenarios where the game blurs the lines the game still falls under the category of p4c.

If we are calling this game p2w then any game with a cash shop, level boosts, content skips,  or trading mechanics for premium currency is p2w too.

P4C/P2S are fairly common terms and is entirely different in all respects from p2w mechanics... They aren't interchangeable.

That would put tons of games in the crosshairs of what you call P2W that simply don't fit.

Players unwilling to invest in the game should be expecting to spend more time at it than the vested player.

That's not a new concept and is quite common in f2p games:

But the strategy doesn't, strictly speaking, make for P2W.

 

 

 

I've never seen anyone using P4C/P2S terms, there isn't even a definition on them on the net.Only in WF i've seen people calling it pay to win faster, pay to progress etc.It's F2P with P2W elements.Many mobile games are considered P2W because of timewalls with rushing for example.WF crafting table is the same but in WF it's called a name that conforts us.

As i said before games have changed through time but the term hasn't.Back in the day those boosters, cash shop etc were considered P2W, the fact that nowdays it's normal to have them doesn't change the terminology.

If it were only for cosmetics it might be wrong to say P2W elements but since gameplay is involved, no matter if you or i consider it significant, it's a P2W element.Being able to finish the game faster by paying, whatever your/mine or the game's goal is, is an advantage over someone who doesn't.The fact that WF provides us with the ability to trade plat and therefore be more fair than other games or it hasn't defined what it's main goal is, doesn't change the system it was created on.

Edit:And because i don't plan to spend my whole day here i'll leave my last example:Arcades.Take any PVE arcade back in the day and what we have?

Someone who can pay for revives and someone who'll try again.No conflict between those two(at least not ingame) but the paying player will finish the game faster aka "win", he doesn't beat the other player, he doesn't get a better prize, he beats the game having the advantage of the extra lives those quarters gave him over the guy who didn't put any but also beat the game after 176 tries.The end.

Edit 2:https://www.gamedesigning.org/gaming/pay-to-win-games/ most of them titles are concidered F2P, WF is in there too and that's how most people perceive what P2W is.

Edited September 1, 2019 by DeathDweller

[DeMonkey]

5 hours ago, nslay said:

Yeah, it later cites those as examples for or against, but that section makes no specific mention of competitive/PVP/PVE games anywhere

It doesn't need to, contextually it's all it's referring to however. Especially, as I've already mentioned, the bit where it mentions "gaining an advantage over those who don't pay".

The wording of this refers to conflict. You do not gain an advantage in Warframe over other players by purchasing Prime Access, because there is no advantage to be had over other players. I mean really, what advantage is there to be had? Higher kill numbers, higher damage percentage on the leaderboard? These are utterly irrelevant.

It's referring to conflict throughout the section, clarifying that it's referring to PvP seems a little silly.

5 hours ago, nslay said:

There is no question in my mind that buying Prime Access isn't pay-to-win

I really hope that's not the case, because seemingly by the logic presented you view any micro transaction that isn't cosmetic as pay to win.

[Xirka]

3 hours ago, George_PPS said:

It’s not pay 2 win. It’s pay to speed up if one must progress faster. 

It is not pay to win, it is simply pay to not farm. 

[nslay]

1 minute ago, DeMonkey said:

It doesn't need to, contextually it's all it's referring to however. Especially, as I've already mentioned, the bit where it mentions "gaining an advantage over those who don't pay".

The wording of this refers to conflict. You do not gain an advantage in Warframe over other players by purchasing Prime Access, because there is no advantage to be had over other players. I mean really, what advantage is there to be had? Higher kill numbers, higher damage percentage on the leaderboard? These are utterly irrelevant.

It's referring to conflict throughout the section, clarifying that it's referring to PvP seems a little silly.

I really hope that's not the case, because seemingly by the logic presented you view any micro transaction that isn't cosmetic as pay to win.

Don't be silly! Sure you gain an advantage over other similar players when purchasing Prime Access. You get all that stuff instantly compared to the other similar players that have to farm it. That's petty consistent with the bolded text. Here, let me quote that again!

Quote

In some games, players who are willing to pay for special items or downloadable content may be able to gain an advantage over those playing for free who might otherwise need to spend time progressing in order to unlock said items.

The advantage here is getting it immediately. So one group of players that pays gains the advantage of having and playing with new Frame Prime immediately while the others have to farm it. How can this be construed any other way? That's technically pay-to-win.

It's even worse when you realize that an MR 0 can purchase Prime Access and that often includes endgame grade stuff. So that's a kind of another pay-to-win in and of itself... Day 1, spend $x on Prime Access and get some of the best gear in the game. I win!

16 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

I really hope that's not the case, because seemingly by the logic presented you view any micro transaction that isn't cosmetic as pay to win.

Well, I certainly don't feel that way about slots. Slots are like infrastructure costs (storage and database licensing)... it's almost like paying your ISP for Internet to play the game. But buying boosters/reactors/catalysts/exilus adapters/etc... with cash? Oh yeah... that's pay-to-win. One group that purchases boosters with cash gets rare resources faster than other similar players who only get boosters from daily tributes, Sorties, or rare containers.

But you know... nothing is every black and white! There is some ambiguity in Warframe's market. You can play the game and trade for plat and then buy things on the market. In that sense, that's technically no different than accumulating credits, vitus essence, ducats, event tokens (e.g. pearls), etc... to buy something.

Finally, the culture of Warframe is so casual and there is no matching system that it's commonplace for elite and new players to play together to the point that no one cares about the status of the other. And certainly in random pugs, nobody is even aware if one player bought all their gear with cash or grinded it. All things considered, nobody playing Warframe really cares about blurry pay-to-win aspects in Warframe. In fact, boosters even benefit everyone in random pugs! So there's that too!

But yeah, even in a PVE like Diablo 3... that community will not tolerate the microtransactions found in Warframe beyond cosmetics or stash tabs (and I've heard Path of Exile mirrors those values). They will almost unanimously denounce a PVE game like Warframe as pay-to-win because you can buy valuable gear instantly. Believe me, I have tried to share my wonderful experiences with Warframe in the Diablo 3 forum. It is not well received because it is considered pay-to-win even to them.

[DeMonkey]

5 minutes ago, nslay said:

The advantage here is getting it immediately. So one group of players that pays gains the advantage of having and playing with new Frame Prime immediately while the others have to farm it. How can this be construed any other way?

Because I don't see this as getting an advantage over another player, since you are not in competition with other players.

You get an advantage over the enemies, certainly, as your gear is slightly more powerful, but not other players.

That's the crux of this.

[TARINunit9]

15 hours ago, Knight_Ex said:

aura forma bundle and eidolon lenses

No, this is perfectly in line with how WF has always been

Warframe is not pay to win. Warframe is pay to make convenient. Grinding to get items is free but inconvenient; buying is convenient but isn't free. But in both cases, you now have level 0 items; you still have to play the game to level the items up, and you're not allowed to buy a skip for that (though you are allowed to buy an XP booster, for convenience)

Buying an Eidolon Lens lets you skip the item grind, but you still have to farm the focus. This is not paying for power, only convenience

[RazorTip]

What's this? A “pay to win” argument about Warframe?

[(XBOX)Demon Intellect]

18 hours ago, Knight_Ex said:

Wooo, touchy subject I know, but in light of the recent update and looking at the store, aura forma bundle and eidolon lenses, doesn't seem that big of a deal? However these are extremely rare drops in the game, because people were complaining DE decided to appease the wallet warriors, we already have boosters in game, and I understand the argument of P2W in a PVE game not being relevant however there are people that dedicate time and effort into farming these things, for DE to just pop them on the store and says "Hey guys, give us money and we will give you these rare drops", is quite a bit disheartening, not because I don't want this available to other people, I just don't want to see a habit of DE meeting complaints with "Oh lets just throw it on the store", whats next? Umbra forma?

It's funny how often I see 'it's easy to make a ton of plat on the market' and then those same people turn around and whine about p2w, I mean if you're sitting on such mountains of plat, why does it matter? Shouldn't it just make it easier to get?