Is DE starting to turn in the direction of P2W?

[SneakyErvin]

11 hours ago, DeathDweller said:

As i said before the advantage doesn't have to do with the type of game.Pay to "win" refers to the game itself, not the players.The way this is accomplished varies from game to game.Duel links for example is pure pvp game at it's core but getting the new cards first doesn't guarantee you victory over the others, just that you'll progress faster in the game.So it's a F2P with heavy P2W elements.

Or Drakensang, one of the games WF based it's F2P system, PVE on it's core has P2W elements.There you can say that it has PVP also, but then again doesn't WF?(I'm stretching this out)Sure it sucks, it's broken and not many play it but is there.If a weapon or  a Frame comes out and it's the new meta those who'll have it in PVP will dominate.

So in the end, unless we create a new term for every thing that comes out, we're stuck with the P2W term just not with the excact same meaning as in earlier years.WF is like Drakensang(F2P with P2W elements)just in a much smaller scale to be a problem.

@Padre_Akaisi believe i cover you in my last paragraph.

It depends on the presence or not of PvP. You cant win in any way over others in a PvE game, so it simply comes down to if you think your time is more worth it than money and if you wanna shorten your gameplay experience in order to get something faster.

It doesnt have to guarantee that you win, I'm not sure anyone has ever said that here. P2W is simply getting an edge over someone in a PvP game by paying real money for it. The only game I dont consider as P2W where PvP is heavy would be card games based on actual paper CCGs like MTG etc. That is because it has been the nature of those games to buy boosters in order to get what you want or trade/buy from other players.

I'm not sure about Drakensang. If the PvP is like WF then no it isnt P2W. Nothing you can buy in WF transfers over to the PvP in an impactful way at all. No a frame or weapon will not give you an edge over someone in conclave, that is if the frame is even released for conclave when it goes live.

It is also not about creating new terms because several terms have already been there along with P2W since it was first coined to differentiate the systems that buy you advancement but arent pay to win.

Pay for conveniance, pay to skip, pay to advance, pay to win etc. There are several, it is just that people are utterly lazy and lack understanding so they slap P2W on everything with a cash-shop, no matter if there are gains or not.

WF would fall under all of them except p2w bcause there is noting not pay for in order to win in a pve game.

But hey, calling WF pay to win isnt the most retarded p2w argument I've heard. It is worse when people call WoW p2w just because you must have a sub, that you can sell sub time to others for gold or that you can buy an instant max level power up for a character. Yeah... because gold is so useful in WoW, you can buy such amazing things on AH that doesnt even beat blue dungeon gear and your instant max level will surely faceroll their competition in arenas and BG with their massively OP starter gear... now that was all sarcasm if you didnt get that.

[Rakosta_Kai]

6 hours ago, DeathDweller said:

I've never seen anyone using P4C/P2S terms, there isn't even a definition on them on the net.Only in WF i've seen people calling it pay to win faster, pay to progress etc.It's F2P with P2W elements.Many mobile games are considered P2W because of timewalls with rushing for example.WF crafting table is the same but in WF it's called a name that conforts us.

As i said before games have changed through time but the term hasn't.Back in the day those boosters, cash shop etc were considered P2W, the fact that nowdays it's normal to have them doesn't change the terminology.

If it were only for cosmetics it might be wrong to say P2W elements but since gameplay is involved, no matter if you or i consider it significant, it's a P2W element.Being able to finish the game faster by paying, whatever your/mine or the game's goal is, is an advantage over someone who doesn't.The fact that WF provides us with the ability to trade plat and therefore be more fair than other games or it hasn't defined what it's main goal is, doesn't change the system it was created on.

Edit:And because i don't plan to spend my whole day here i'll leave my last example:Arcades.Take any PVE arcade back in the day and what we have?

Someone who can pay for revives and someone who'll try again.No conflict between those two(at least not ingame) but the paying player will finish the game faster aka "win", he doesn't beat the other player, he doesn't get a better prize, he beats the game having the advantage of the extra lives those quarters gave him over the guy who didn't put any but also beat the game after 176 tries.The end.

Edit 2:https://www.gamedesigning.org/gaming/pay-to-win-games/ most of them titles are concidered F2P, WF is in there too and that's how most people perceive what P2W is.

I, personally, haven't found difficulties in finding those terms referenced in other games whether it be mmo or shooter frankly.

If a player can use money to acquire an advantage that another player, who doesn't pay, can't get through time or effort is P2W...Period. 

That doesn't really apply here (Mostly...Rivens,, amongst other luck based results, tend to blur that line a bit imo but is offset by having premium currency tradeable).

 

Even your anecdote regarding Arcade games isn't P2W in truth...Arcade games have a continue cycle that allows the player to put in additional coins if they lose in both single and vs modes.

Likewise, the player that paid the most will have finished the game slower due to having to repeat content where they failed.

Arcade games are pay to play.

 

So let's take the link you used (not familiar with this site tbh but anything that pops up "Buy this" spash pages reeks of clickbait to me.

Still, Let's take their stance on the matter...

" ‘Pay to Win’ has become an infamous term in the gaming world. Users and players willing to shell out a few extra bucks to access features that are normally unlocked as the game progresses can give some serious advantage, especially in online games. This presents an unfair balancing issue within the online communities.

What if a gamer is dedicated but doesn’t have the cash to pay for a rare weapon or endgame upgrade early on? It irritates gamers to no end, and unfortunately doesn’t show signs of stopping. Game companies can earn more income for eager gamers trying to avoid grinding in games."

https://www.gamedesigning.org/gaming/pay-to-win-games/

Exactly what advantage do you receive here for doing this? None. Unless you choose to count certain cosmetics as an advantage.

Exactly what bonuses does the non-paying player lose out on? None. Unless you, again, choose to count those cosmetics yet again.

 

This is literally the only game I can think of where the non-paying player and the paying player have equal access to most of the same stuff.

Likewise, I can just about guarantee you that non-paying players in this game have far more premium currency on hand at any given time than paying players do.

 

So do please help me understand how you can keep calling this game P2W .

 

I, personally, want to gain some understanding on this because I am seeing a great deal of ambiguity in definitions and intent but an eagerness to slap a fairly damaging label at the same time.

My personal outlook is that DE has bent over backwards to ensure that free players enjoy as much benefit from the game as paying players do. Doing so has certainly impacted their profits long term and the smart free player enjoys the exact same experience that the premium player does.

But I still see folks, just like you, swinging these terms around and I would love to know "Why?"

Edited September 1, 2019 by Padre_Akais

[BETAOPTICS]

Wait how does this work exactly? I already have all Focuses maxed out when lesser and greater lenses were only a thing. The daily cap is easy to obtain if you know how. Same with Aura Forma. You can build your Warframes in a way where they are not needed for most builds, and even then though you can get everything you need if you buy or do not buy. In what way is that winning? And winning over what or whom? 

[George_PPS]

21 hours ago, Knight_Ex said:

I feel like people are failing to grasp the underlining issue that content that was once behind a grindwall that actually gives you an edge in the game is becoming available in the market, I agree with what many people are saying, putting content from Arbs in the store is kinda disappointing for those that were doing the grind, but as another person mentioned above this could very well be a precursor of things to come, I sure don't want to see veiled rivens available to purchase directly from the store,  though I think maybe what caught me by surprise was how soon aura forma was released into the store, especially when they are fully built aura's so no 4 forma costs or 10 nitian, I also imagine that new players would get confused by the aura and regular forma, I wonder how many times a new player has accidentally bought aura forma since its introduction in the store.

An edge? It’s PvE and everyone advances at his or her pace. There is no such thing as giving one an edge by paying plat to advance faster. In fact, those who actually pay for plat to pay for in game items are helping the developers and DE. They aren’t designing and developing the game for you for free. They need to eat and they are human beings. 

 

“disappointing for those that were doing the grind”?  If you aren’t paying plat to being with, you just need to grind the items. It’s very fair. 

 

You are are the one who is not grasping the big picture here and only thinking of yourself. 

[(XBOX)Dex Xean]

god players have butchered the term pay to win nowadays. Used to be people knew p2w was only used to describes item only bought with real money for thousands of dollars.

this is pay to progress or pay for convenience not pay to win.

Pay to win is when you can get something with only real money that gives you some thing like a stat advantage like let say for example "200 dollars for 200% permanent power strength increase". 

also this isnt a pvp focus game too so who cares if you can buy all your aura forma instead of farm it. some people do not have time to sit there for hours in arb praying to rng jesus.

[DeathDweller]

@Padre_Akais @SneakyErvin I don't know if it's the english language that is poor on definitions or you guys are just stubborn and fail to grasp that having an advantage "over" others doesn't translate to direct competition between individuals.It describes your higher chances, position etc in "comparison" to someone else.Check this thread alone and see how many people can't even agree on what WF is, pay for convinience, pay to win faster, pay to advance faster, pay to not farm, pay to skip, literally you can keep coming up with a different term every other hour.The reason all those terms aren't established through the years is because they all fall under the P2W category which by itself can refer to the game itself or an opponent.P2W mechanics/elements don't make a game P2W.I've played enough online games some with heavy P2W  some with P2W elements, most of them had grinding skipping etc, none of the communities kept baptizing them as they pleased.At least gather a group, deside what it is, tell DE to name it us such and be over with it.

Edited September 1, 2019 by DeathDweller

[(PSN)deathwolfclaw666]

8 minutes ago, (XB1)Dex Xean said:

god players have butchered the term pay to win nowadays. Used to be people knew p2w was only used to describes item only bought with real money for thousands of dollars.

this is pay to progress or pay for convenience not pay to win.

Pay to win is when you can get something with only real money that gives you some thing like a stat advantage like let say for example "200 dollars for 200% permanent power strength increase". 

also this isnt a pvp focus game too so who cares if you can buy all your aura forma instead of farm it. some people do not have time to sit there for hours in arb praying to rng jesus.

It hasn't been butchered (unless we count the buzz words) it's just that people still believe that the term P2W has a set definition when really it's an opinionated subject with people having their own varied definition. The main three definitions of P2W I've run into is a variation of

If you can pay real money to auto win a match.

If paying real money is the only way to get a non-cosmetic items.

If non-cosmetic items can be bought with real money.

In addition people look at how much PvP there is with some only including a game if PvP is the main focus, there is at least some PvP or even if the game is just PvE.

So an the end of the day all this P2W argument comes down to is "my option right your option wrong".

[kuciol]

38 minutes ago, DeathDweller said:

@Padre_Akais @SneakyErvin I don't know if it's the english language that is poor on definitions or you guys are just stubborn and fail to grasp that having an advantage "over" others doesn't translate to direct competition between individuals.It describes your higher chances, position etc in "comparison" to someone else.Check this thread alone and see how many people can't even agree on what WF is, pay for convinience, pay to win faster, pay to advance faster, pay to not farm, pay to skip, literally you can keep coming up with a different term every other hour.The reason all those terms aren't established through the years is because they all fall under the P2W category which by itself can refer to the game itself or an opponent.P2W mechanics/elements don't make a game P2W.I've played enough online games some with heavy P2W  some with P2W elements, most of them had grinding skipping etc, none of the communities kept baptizing them as they pleased.At least gather a group, deside what it is, tell DE to name it us such and be over with it.

Its all of the above. Its not P2W since there really is nothing to win. You are not competing with anyone, you are not comparing yourself to anyone. There is nothing to gain. You literally just rip yourself off of gameplay. P2W definition got diluted because entitled kids cant comprehend that they dont deserve everything by just breathing. P2W means you have an edge by paying but what edge you gain here? Players that dont spend a dime can have exactly the same thing as the biggest whale. Thats not P2W by any stretch of imagination. It would be IF and only IF the grind would be unreasonable but it isnt, check any Aeria Games game to learn the meaning ot this word after you spend 5 months to just buy a single item. 

Edited September 1, 2019 by kuciol

[Rakosta_Kai]

5 hours ago, DeathDweller said:

@Padre_Akais @SneakyErvin I don't know if it's the english language that is poor on definitions or you guys are just stubborn and fail to grasp that having an advantage "over" others doesn't translate to direct competition between individuals.

Given that:

1.  I have yet to mention competition between players.
2. I have already debunked the whole notion of "advantage over other players" in at least 3 posts in this thread.

...Perhaps you just fit your own description in this case?

Lastly, and I know this may be a hard concept to grasp:

Get used to the idea that someone will have more than you...Because someone, somewhere, always will.

6 hours ago, DeathDweller said:

It describes your higher chances, position etc in "comparison" to someone else.Check this thread alone and see how many people can't even agree on what WF is, pay for convinience, pay to win faster, pay to advance faster, pay to not farm, pay to skip, literally you can keep coming up with a different term every other hour.The reason all those terms aren't established through the years is because they all fall under the P2W category

But they don't... They keep calling it everything BUT Pay 2 Win precisely because it is patently obvious that it doesn't fit in that category.

Using, "I can't think of jack else to call it so let's go with P2W to explain why people have more than me..." as an explanation is, imo, lazy, entitled, and dishonest.

If you want to get along for free in this game you are going to need to work as opposed to whining bud.

There are people in this game who've never plugged a dime into with more MR, money, and stuff than I do as a player who plugs money into the game in any month I spend real time.

But you think it's P2W because...reasons.

If you think the game is actually P2W then have the courage of your convictions by logging out and un-installing the game.

I mean what idiot would really waste their time on a game they know is Pay 2 Win?

[Oreades]

If anything I'm worried not because Aura Forma popped into the store, I'm strangely OK with that in theory. 

It's that I'm afraid that instead of an Iterative Multi-Polarity system where you add a forma to an already polarized slot to add a new polarity instead of replacing the old one, up to five times with Umbral** etc. 

Is that we will end up with an "all or nothing" system that forces you to add 4 polarities in one go which IMHO is just a bad system. 

I mean both can theoretically exists together, you can have an iterative system and rare-ish quad-polarity forma that save you the leveling cycles as a convenience for the times you know you're gonna quad polarize a slot. But only ever having the forced quad polarity is just butts. 

 

Most people just use Auras for the bonus pts and don't care what they actually cram into the Aura slot because Auras are all pretty useless in normal gameplay. Which in part is why I feel that DE went down the path of trying this with Aura Forma, even if it went sideways it's very controlled and doesn't have much impact on the game. I mean I think I have VUN UND EXACTLY VUN frame build that uses two (yes only two not four, just two) different Aura Polarities and for one I just leave it mispolarized cause it isn't a huge imposition. 

That gets a bit more complicated in the rest of the build where I might want two (read dual) polarities on three or more mod slots, not four polarities one one slot, just two and maybe a third here or there.... in rare rare instances I might build up to a 4th but I doubt that. With an iterative system that uses existing Forma, you can do that and you get value (in the form of build flexibility not power creep) out of each and every Forma you put in your gear and we don't need new Forma for that, just use the existing Forma and give people something to do. 

An iterative system would be probably the biggest QoL update Warframe has ever had

 

So at the end of the day I'm not terribly worried about DE going pay to win with the Aura Forma so much as I'm worried that they are going to go with the worse option when it comes to multi polarity systems. 

 

**Tho to be fair my initial idea before they added Umbral Polarities was to just have Umbral Mods not count negatively in mis-polarized slots instead of having a dedicated polarity. But that didn't happen so eh~

Edited September 1, 2019 by Oreades

[DeathDweller]

14 minutes ago, Padre_Akais said:

Given that:

1.  I have yet to mention competition between players.
2. I have already debunked the whole notion of "advantage over other players" in at least 3 posts in this thread.

...Perhaps you just fit your own description in this case?

Lastly, and I know this may be a hard concept to grasp:

Get used to the idea that someone will have more than you...Because someone, somewhere, always will.

But they don't... They keep calling it everything BUT Pay 2 Win precisely because it is patently obvious that it doesn't fit in that category.

Using, "I can't think of jack else to call it so let's go with P2W to explain why people have more than me..." as an explanation is, imo, lazy, entitled, and dishonest.

If you want to get along for free in this game you are going to need to work as opposed to whining bud.

There are people in this game who've never plugged a dime into with more MR, money, and stuff than I do as a player who plugs money into the game in any month I spend real time.

But you think it's P2W because...reasons.

If you think the game is actually P2W then have the courage of your convictions by logging out and un-installing the game.

I mean what idiot would really waste their time on a game they know is Pay 2 Win?

Entitlement would be to change an established term as to fit someone's ego about their precious game.

Every single term you'll come up with to feed that ego has been practised through the years in many games and if it were to be established as a standalone term it would have been by now.

Before assuming that i'm whining or haven't worked hard, take a look at all my posts in this thread, see that nowhere i said the game is P2W but F2P with P2W elements(huge difference)and finally compare both our ingame profiles before suggesting me to unistall.I don't have anything else to add on the subject.

[Dark_Chroma_Prime]

I beg you to make a difference between p2w and pay to skip. Also warframe is mainly a PVE game, how could you even utilize p2w? 

[ZarTham]

Not gonna read all replies, but if you think WF went p2w, then you probably don't know what a p2w game looks like xD

In the last 2 weeks, maybe more, I have been receiving so many booster from the login reward, credits, resources, affinity, sure you can go the easy way and just buy plat to buy boosters and farm or just buy the item right away, also, you can trade stuff for plat, something that you will not find in most games, where that special currency is bound to the player.

[Rakosta_Kai]

2 hours ago, DeathDweller said:

Entitlement would be to change an established term as to fit someone's ego about their precious game.

...Which fits your commentary perfectly so far incidentally.

2 hours ago, DeathDweller said:

Every single term you'll come up with to feed that ego has been practised through the years in many games and if it were to be established as a standalone term it would have been by now.

Since it has been ever since cash shops and micro-transactions became a thing, is currently, and has been being used to describe other games, I don't have an ego to feed on this point.

...To hear you tell it,  I must have 12 accounts posting in this thread whisking these terms out of thin air for the purpose of making crap up.

2 hours ago, DeathDweller said:

Before assuming that i'm whining or haven't worked hard, take a look at all my posts in this thread, see that nowhere i said the game is P2W but F2P with P2W elements(huge difference)and finally compare both our ingame profiles before suggesting me to unistall.I don't have anything else to add on the subject.

Not really all that much to assume...I can read your posts.

I don't know how hard you work but it's obvious, from your comments, that you have a habit of measuring yourself to others instead of just playing the game instead. That's energy you could have spent more productively imo.

Likewise, I don't bother with in-game profiles for a few reasons...

1. It's creepy.
2. Did I mention how incredibly creepy that is?
3. It says nothing about the player... Only about what the player has acquired and I very seldom care about such things.

None of that changes the fact that a clearly rational human being is choosing to log in to a game they think is P2W .

Applying your logic, if this game is all of those different definitions to keep from avoiding calling it P2W, then you must think it fits that descriptor to some varying degree(your own comments support this)

In such case, I can only conclude that either that rational human being is a trifle misleading or that rational human being isn't as rational as they appear.

That said, I do have a question (Actually, I have asked a few so far but you haven't bothered to answer the others)

What exactly would you change?

What would you change to make it not P2W in your opinion?

Please don't view it as fodder for a fight..I am genuinely curious.

[Atomic_Noodles]

Do remember that you still have to grind/farm with the equipped Lenses. Sure you will have them but unless you can instantly gain 3 million focus without allocating time to do the grind its not yet in the "P2W" vision DE has. Where its Pay to Skip Waiting But still gotta put Effort in most of the Gameplay..

[AriaSTG]

Define "Pay 2 Win" in PVE game.
What is that we compete? Speed Run? Fastest and most captured Hydrolyst? Longest endurance mission? Most Nano Spores collected? Others?

Which part of the Paywall that requires/forces the player to win? Enlighten me for I am quite intrigued by this direction.
 

[(PSN)drpunk-yo]

Erm, how is buying a lens pay to win?

Lens doesn't do anything. You still gotta play for affinity.

[SneakyErvin]

On 2019-09-01 at 6:40 PM, DeathDweller said:

@Padre_Akais @SneakyErvin I don't know if it's the english language that is poor on definitions or you guys are just stubborn and fail to grasp that having an advantage "over" others doesn't translate to direct competition between individuals.It describes your higher chances, position etc in "comparison" to someone else.Check this thread alone and see how many people can't even agree on what WF is, pay for convinience, pay to win faster, pay to advance faster, pay to not farm, pay to skip, literally you can keep coming up with a different term every other hour.The reason all those terms aren't established through the years is because they all fall under the P2W category which by itself can refer to the game itself or an opponent.P2W mechanics/elements don't make a game P2W.I've played enough online games some with heavy P2W  some with P2W elements, most of them had grinding skipping etc, none of the communities kept baptizing them as they pleased.At least gather a group, deside what it is, tell DE to name it us such and be over with it.

How can the english language be poor on definitions when phrases such as pay to skip, pay for conveniance and so on have been around years longer than P2W? WoW was one of the games that quite early on started with pay to skip or pay for conveniance transaction, like race changes, name changes and so on so you didnt have to reroll and start from scratch. They gave more options later on, like faction changes and max level boosts. P2W got coined when f2p and b2p PvP games became and thing and had microtransactions tied to them. It isnt until recently that so many clueless players have started to apply it to everything.

P2W is only a thing when cash can buy an advatage over another player in a competative game environment. And when it started P2W only applied to items that were exclusively obtainable through cash-shop purchases and not through normal gameplay, while also giving you an upper hand against other players. In WF we can get everything through gameplay and there is no upper hand to be had against another player. It is mostly a thing in asian games ported to the west, like Archeage and Black Desert where the PvP is heavy everywhere and the grind is extremely slow if you dont pay. There is only one original western release that I can think of as P2W and that is Neverwinter, mostly because they added zones that were forced PvP along with having a very S#&$ty enchantment system that relied on heavy amounts of premium cash and the AH. The two mixed simply turned it into P2W. If PvP had stayed optional within BGs it would have never taken that plunge into the deep dark sea of P2W.

edit: Also, there is no such thing as "P2W elements". It either is P2W or it isnt, simple as that. Conveniance and skip transactions arent P2W elements however conveniance and skip transaction can be elements in a P2W game, though that is a massive difference from calling most microtransaction "P2W elements". It comes down to how the game is designed and how much that conveniance and skip transaction does when it comes to bringing an edge over other players. Like xp boosts, they arent a P2W element, yet in a game such as Black Desert they quickly turn the game into P2W due to how level mechanics work in that game.

Edited September 2, 2019 by SneakyErvin

[DeathDweller]

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

How can the english language be poor on definitions when phrases such as pay to skip, pay for conveniance and so on have been around years longer than P2W? WoW was one of the games that quite early on started with pay to skip or pay for conveniance transaction, like race changes, name changes and so on so you didnt have to reroll and start from scratch. They gave more options later on, like faction changes and max level boosts. P2W got coined when f2p and b2p PvP games became and thing and had microtransactions tied to them. It isnt until recently that so many clueless players have started to apply it to everything.

P2W is only a thing when cash can buy an advatage over another player in a competative game environment. And when it started P2W only applied to items that were exclusively obtainable through cash-shop purchases and not through normal gameplay, while also giving you an upper hand against other players. In WF we can get everything through gameplay and there is no upper hand to be had against another player. It is mostly a thing in asian games ported to the west, like Archeage and Black Desert where the PvP is heavy everywhere and the grind is extremely slow if you dont pay. There is only one original western release that I can think of as P2W and that is Neverwinter, mostly because they added zones that were forced PvP along with having a very S#&$ty enchantment system that relied on heavy amounts of premium cash and the AH. The two mixed simply turned it into P2W. If PvP had stayed optional within BGs it would have never taken that plunge into the deep dark sea of P2W.

edit: Also, there is no such thing as "P2W elements". It either is P2W or it isnt, simple as that. Conveniance and skip transactions arent P2W elements however conveniance and skip transaction can be elements in a P2W game, though that is a massive difference from calling most microtransaction "P2W elements". It comes down to how the game is designed and how much that conveniance and skip transaction does when it comes to bringing an edge over other players. Like xp boosts, they arent a P2W element, yet in a game such as Black Desert they quickly turn the game into P2W due to how level mechanics work in that game.

Really i don't see the point to keep replying to you guys since either you twist what i say like the other guy who assumes out of thin air that i whined and took a position as if i like/have a problem with the current model or i attacked the founders etc, or you don't pay attention to what i say and address other things.I'm clearly talking about "the having an advantage over others" term not the P2W term.Your first 2 paragraphs are pointless.

But anyway sure P2W started like you say, pay for something that isn't accessible otherwise but that was when?2004?I stated already that through the years games changed, the term hasn't.Pay to skip, pay to not farm/grind, convinience and whatever else don't get established as their own terms because P2W describes all those things.P2W the game!Reach the end/goal of the game, whatever that is(collect everything, beat the boss, beat other players) faster than you would without paying.Pay to skip, pay for conviniece, pay to not farm, pay for whatever thing comes to our mind to avoid one freaking term, results on reaching the end faster one way or another.

P2W mechanics(elements is my word for it) exist.F2P is the model that someone can access the game like pay to play(arcades), buy to play or subscription.P2W, grind etc is an ingame option on how you can progress.I already said that in WF it's in a much smaller scale to be a problem.Doesn't matter in what scale they are in any game, if they work the same and you call it P2W in other games they are P2W in here too.

And if i complained about something in this thread that would be the direction of the bundles are taking as of lately that force you in a way to buy the pack instead of farming the frame because of it's cosmetics.When your options are either farm for the frame and buy the bundle with the frame anyway to get those cosmetics or just buy the bundle and not farm at all.What do you call something almost forced upon you?Pay for convinience?Wont reply any more since we have already derailed from the thread enough already.

Edited September 2, 2019 by DeathDweller

[Hyro1]

There are several comments informing that the terms "Pay 4 Convince" and "Pay 2 Skip" exist, and another informing that it existed before P2W term even came about, and yet you still insist that Warframe is using the P2W model without even acknowledging the other terms. Are you purposely being ignorant of whats going in this thread or are you just ignoring them to make your point more valid?

[Yamazuki]

While I don't think Warframe is pay to win, to think the term can only apply to pvp games is ignorant. The games most often complained about being pay to win have little to no pvp in them. Pay to win doesn't mean literally winning a competition. Some pve games can only be completed by either spending money or absurd amount of time grinding. Just look at mobile games and how almost all of them are classified as pay to win despite not actually being "pvp".

Until they start selling essential items needed to complete missions in the shop with absurdly low drop rates the game simply won't be pay to win; it would simply be an alternate way for even someone who doesn't spend to get guaranteed drops. This is why I just always save plat for new Warframes, why bother doing something 5-100 times for that 1 drop when I can just spend a couple seconds spending plat I got for just playing the game? It seems people always forget Plat is the in-game currency too, not just the "Premium Currency".

[DeMonkey]

3 hours ago, Yamazuki said:

While I don't think Warframe is pay to win, to think the term can only apply to pvp games is ignorant

I was simply clarifying that the section they were referring to was regarding PvP, that's all. The categorising of any form of advantage as P2W is something that's only really relevant to a PvP game.

PvE games can certainly be P2W, in that content isn't playable without paying due to difficulty or complete denial of access, and you absolutely do get a relevant advantage over another player in that regard because you're getting something they aren't. 

But that doesn't apply to Warframe, as you mentioned.

[Akai-no-bara]

Nah. You haven't seen p2w summerchild. Like a decade or more ago i played a pvp/pve MMO where you can order an item, in customer support, with stats specifically made for you, and it will be private. Depending on your $ you could have a class specific weapon that is 3 times more powerful than normal variant, and only very exp players would be able to "feel" the somebody has something custom on.

[Bioness]

Warframe has been pay-to-win for years. It doesn't matter if a game is PvP or PvE. The stuff you can buy in Warframe allows you to shave hundreds of hours off of mindless grinding or gain power faster.

The only reason people refuse to use the term is because of all the negative connotations that come with a pay-to-win label.

Edited September 3, 2019 by Bioness

[kuciol]

12 minutes ago, Bioness said:

Warframe has been pay-to-win for years. It doesn't matter if a game is PvP or PvE. The stuff you can buy in Warframe allows you to shave hundreds of hours off of mindless grinding or gain power faster.

The only reason people refuse to use the term is because of all the negative connotations that come with a pay-to-win label.

People misusing the term doesnt make game P2W. P2W means that in order to win you must pay. In Warframe it doesnt matter if you pay or not, you have exactly the same chances as non payers. It doesnt matter if the game is PvE or PvP but it also doesnt matter what item shop offers. If the game allows you to gain access to the same items through gameplay and its not unreasonable chore to get them it is not and never will be pay to win. "Mindless grinding" is everything this game has to offer, thats the entire point of this game, by skipping it you are ripping yourself off of gameplay.