Is DE starting to turn in the direction of P2W?

[DeMonkey]

13 minutes ago, kuciol said:

"Mindless grinding" is everything this game has to offer, thats the entire point of this game, by skipping it you are ripping yourself off of gameplay.

Pay to lose.

[Rakosta_Kai]

16 hours ago, DeathDweller said:

Really i don't see the point to keep replying to you guys since either you twist what i say like the other guy who assumes out of thin air that i whined and took a position as if i like/have a problem with the current model or i attacked the founders etc, or you don't pay attention to what i say and address other things.

There is no point where you can call your words twisted or cite feeling attacked without a specific line of your text to associate it with.

17 hours ago, DeathDweller said:

I'm clearly talking about "the having an advantage over others" term not the P2W term.Your first 2 paragraphs are pointless.

I'm personally not entirely sure what you mean here since you've addressed both issues in this thread and given a very heartfelt account of your own to highlight such.

I'd ask you to elaborate but it would likely become the 4th or 5th direct clarifying question you didn't reply to.

17 hours ago, DeathDweller said:

But anyway sure P2W started like you say, pay for something that isn't accessible otherwise but that was when?2004?I stated already that through the years games changed, the term hasn't.Pay to skip, pay to not farm/grind, convinience and whatever else don't get established as their own terms because P2W describes all those things

But it doesn't...clearly

MR and quest completion are the only gates in this game...Items needed to speed MR allocation are available with premium currency and awards in game. Quest completion is on the player. If premium currency wasn't tradeable you might have a point.

But it is... So you don't.

The fact that you are familiar with the terms but choose to hedge them under something else for convenience's sake is known as a hasty generalization.

17 hours ago, DeathDweller said:

And if i complained about something in this thread that would be the direction of the bundles are taking as of lately that force you in a way to buy the pack instead of farming the frame because of it's cosmetics.

What are those bundles purchased with?

17 hours ago, DeathDweller said:

When your options are either farm for the frame and buy the bundle with the frame anyway to get those cosmetics or just buy the bundle and not farm at all.What do you call something almost forced upon you?Pay for convinience?

You call it "nothing" as the item isn't acquirable in another manner. At best, it's a value add to help support the price of the bundle in question...Frankly I can't even see how this one rates discussion given that the bundles in question are typically purchasable with plat.

At best, you can call it a plat sink (which the game has all too few of imo). I don't like when they do it either and can definitely call that a bit predatory. But predatory tactics aren't necessarily P2W even though P2W tactics are, without question, predatory.

Lastly, there is no such thing as being forced "in a way" or almost forced. Forced literally means being left without an option because it's against your will.

"Almost forced" or "Forced in a way" describes a scenario where you have an options, don't like the alternatives,  but opted to choose one regardless.

   

[SordidDreams]

What do you mean, "starting"? The moment you're selling gameplay items for real money, you're P2W. No ifs or buts about it. You want to see a F2P game that's not P2W? Look no further than Path of Exile.

Edited September 3, 2019 by SordidDreams

[mikakor]

19 minutes ago, SordidDreams said:

What do you mean, "starting"? The moment you're selling gameplay items for real money, you're P2W. No ifs or buts about it. You want to see a F2P game that's not P2W? Look no further than Path of Exile.

Chest additional places

There you go, PoE is now pay to win, since it affect gameplay.

 

See the flawed logic?

[SordidDreams]

47 minutes ago, mikakor said:

Chest additional places

There you go, PoE is now pay to win, since it affect gameplay.

 

See the flawed logic?

Actually yeah, I forgot about those. Nevermind, PoE is not free from P2W either.

[kuciol]

19 minutes ago, SordidDreams said:

Actually yeah, I forgot about those. Nevermind, PoE is not free from P2W either.

According to your (wrong) definition there isnt a single game out there that isnt pay 2 win and thats just silly. 

[mikakor]

1 hour ago, SordidDreams said:

Actually yeah, I forgot about those. Nevermind, PoE is not free from P2W either.

Can we agree that there is a spectrum of severity for P2W ? Star wars Battlefront II = on the highest of high, needing thousands of hours to get everything

 

Warframe, often cited as the best example of F2P = very low, and after around 100 hours, if you were playing seriously, you can already have a set Warframe/Primary/Secondary/Melee that will shred most content of the game with relative ease, with clear cut chances of getting something, with clear places where to get them...

 

Well, you get my point. Can we call Warframe pay to win? I wouldn't be from that perspective, but... If it has to, it's clearly on the lowest spectrum, along with PoE

 

[SneakyErvin]

21 hours ago, DeathDweller said:

Really i don't see the point to keep replying to you guys since either you twist what i say like the other guy who assumes out of thin air that i whined and took a position as if i like/have a problem with the current model or i attacked the founders etc, or you don't pay attention to what i say and address other things.I'm clearly talking about "the having an advantage over others" term not the P2W term.Your first 2 paragraphs are pointless.

But anyway sure P2W started like you say, pay for something that isn't accessible otherwise but that was when?2004?I stated already that through the years games changed, the term hasn't.Pay to skip, pay to not farm/grind, convinience and whatever else don't get established as their own terms because P2W describes all those things.P2W the game!Reach the end/goal of the game, whatever that is(collect everything, beat the boss, beat other players) faster than you would without paying.Pay to skip, pay for conviniece, pay to not farm, pay for whatever thing comes to our mind to avoid one freaking term, results on reaching the end faster one way or another.

P2W mechanics(elements is my word for it) exist.F2P is the model that someone can access the game like pay to play(arcades), buy to play or subscription.P2W, grind etc is an ingame option on how you can progress.I already said that in WF it's in a much smaller scale to be a problem.Doesn't matter in what scale they are in any game, if they work the same and you call it P2W in other games they are P2W in here too.

And if i complained about something in this thread that would be the direction of the bundles are taking as of lately that force you in a way to buy the pack instead of farming the frame because of it's cosmetics.When your options are either farm for the frame and buy the bundle with the frame anyway to get those cosmetics or just buy the bundle and not farm at all.What do you call something almost forced upon you?Pay for convinience?Wont reply any more since we have already derailed from the thread enough already.

Yes you are clearly talking about advantages over others, but that only applies in a competative game. It isnt an issue here, thus P2W is impossible to use as a descriptive acronym for WF and the monetization model. As I said, there is no such thing as P2W elements, or as you now say mechanics. There is no imaginary scale that you speak of, a game either is or isnt P2W and that is it. All the terms you claim didnt get established were indeed established several years before P2W ever was on the tongue of gamers and critics.

The term P2W also didnt see the light of day until somewhere around 2010, while the other terms had been around since 2005 or so. It gradually got introduced through asian mmos and Planetside 2 was one of the hot topics when it came to a western release regarding if it was P2W or not. This was followed by titles such as GW2 and Neverwinter Online shortly after and it was even seen as a topic regarding D3 and the RMAH where you could buy gear straight up for real money. Neverwinter was however the only one that actually fell into the category early on since it involved PvP where the benefit of spending money ment a drastic change in the outcome of a battle versus another player.

And regarding "if they work the same and you call it P2W in other games they are P2W here too" is simply absurd and wrong. It isnt the items that are P2W, it is the mechanics/systems of the game they are part of that decides if they are P2W in that setting or not. Like how xp boosts and other items that grant xp increases are indeed P2W in Black Desert, because that is simply how BD is set up regarding how levels of players work and interact with eachother. Just as butlers/maids are P2W items there aswell because they let you stay infinitley in grind areas for xp, letting you skip really long rides back and forth between towns and farm areas, resulting in a massive increase in xp gains for your character. An xp booster in WF is nothing but a conveniance item for those moments when you simply cannot be arsed to sit through yet another Hydron defense to level another frame.

As for your last paragraph and question. It would depend why you decide to buy the bundle. To skip the grind and get the cosmetics as a bonus or simply in order to get the cosmetic and the frame being just a bonus. In the first case I'd say it is conveniance/skip, in the second it would fall into no category, just as all other cosmetics.

 

[spirit_of_76]

On 2019-08-31 at 10:30 AM, fatpig84 said:

Aura forma ? I even forgot those exists lol and have a bunch of them laying around.

The only aura worth running is CP anyway in endgame, since all enemies can gain armor now, even Corpus.
Energy siphon is too weak, the classic rejuv and physique deal too little. Radar mods help for sneaking spy mission... But there is Ivara and Primed Animal Instinct so...
Steel Charge only matters if your frame has no forma and need all the points it needs (but if you are formaing soon, that doesn't matter), otherwise it is either Power donation / Growing Power.

I supposed the only reason why you want an aura forma is for certain frames like Nova, so you can make super speed enemies with Power donation (V) without losing your natural (-) power slot.

 

oberon likes it as well because some builds want GP or steel charge while others want CP there is some argument for chroma as well most frames don't get much from it

[Bioness]

5 hours ago, mikakor said:

Chest additional places

There you go, PoE is now pay to win, since it affect gameplay.

 

See the flawed logic?

It isn't that flawed. One wouldn't be remiss if they forgot about Path of Exile's tabs, because unlike Warframe you could front load your Path of Exile account with stash tabs and forget they exist. In Warframe you have to keep spending platinum to get more frames and weapons, platinum if you recall 99.99% of the time was BOUGHT by someone, with the sole exception of platinum giveaways.

As someone else said, think of pay-to-win as a spectrum, with Warframe and Path of Exile being on the low side.

[Rakosta_Kai]

19 minutes ago, Bioness said:

In Warframe you have to keep spending platinum to get more frames and weapons, platinum if you recall 99.99% of the time was BOUGHT by someone, with the sole exception of platinum giveaways.

But you don't...

• You get enough starting plat to buy slots.
• DE gives stuff with slots annually, 
• Platinum is tradeable.

If you premium currency is tradeable in-game and your marketplace specifically uses the premium currency, how do you explain P2W exactly?

Short answer? You can't.

Sure, we can call every micro-transaction marketing endeavor and cash shop P2W...It still wouldn't fit because the premium currency is tradeable.

 

   

[Bioness]

5 minutes ago, Padre_Akais said:

But you don't...

• You get enough starting plat to buy slots.
• DE gives stuff with slots annually, 
• Platinum is tradeable.

If you premium currency is tradeable in-game and your marketplace specifically uses the premium currency, how do you explain P2W exactly?

Short answer? You can't.

Sure, we can call every micro-transaction marketing endeavor and cash shop P2W...It still wouldn't fit because the premium currency is tradeable.

 

   

1) The starting plat is almost useless and untradeable. There are 500+ pieces of equipment and you start out with less than 6 slots.

2) Nearly all platinum is bought by someone, if no one bought plat there would be none to trade. Why is this such a hard concept? SOMEONE HAS TO SPEND MONEY

3) The stuff bought with plat affects gameplay and not by a small amount either

Edited September 3, 2019 by Bioness

[MythicPulse]

DE is usually very good about applying what-polarity-goes-where for each frame, with 2 or 3 "why is it THIS" exceptions.  You can farm the Aura Forma, probably more easily than you can farm certain frames.

[RX-3DR]

1 hour ago, Bioness said:

2) Nearly all platinum is bought by someone, if no one bought plat there would be none to trade. Why is this such a hard concept? SOMEONE HAS TO SPEND MONEY

Are purchased games that have no Microtransactions, but maybe DLC, also P2W? Someone is spending money to for gameplay, and is therefore, paying to win, right? Especially when buying DLCs and expansion packs, that affects gameplay. The definition you're using is way too broad, it's almost indistinguishable from pay to play.

[DeMonkey]

2 minutes ago, RX-3DR said:

Are purchased games that have no Microtransactions, but maybe DLC, also P2W? Someone is spending money to for gameplay, and is therefore, paying to win, right? Especially when buying DLCs and expansion packs, that affects gameplay. The definition you're using is way too broad, it's almost indistinguishable from pay to play.

Can't win a game of CoD if you don't pay to buy the game in the first place.

Taps nose

[(PSN)Kakurine2]

Just about everything we can buy with plat is grindable through play.

Using plat is just quicker.

Warframes model works well and is fair.  Its not pay to win.

[Yakozaki]

hrmm, so the forma, orokin reactor, orokin catalyst, ciphers, resource boosters were all p2w then! wooo, big conspiracy!

seriously, if you're finding a monetization method as tame as this "p2w", EA must be a big shaker to you.

those items are incredibly easy to farm, you arent forced to buy the mod packs, you have an easy grind to get them. You want real p2w? look at the triple eyy games industry altering rates and locking items behind storefronts and lootboxes. In Warframe, you have choice. What choice do you even have in Battlefront II or Apex Legends latest shenanigans?

[nslay]

I consider slots or stash tabs infrastructure costs. They do indirectly affect gameplay, but the developers have to pay for storage, maintenance, redundancy, and database licensing to store all your warframes, weapons, sentinels, rivens, etc...

This is F2P. Diablo 3 has stash tabs that are covered by its upfront cost... Oh yeah, and you can't buy or trade endgame gear at all, let alone stash tabs which is unfortunate.

[Test-995]

It's always going about definition of P2W, despite it doesn't really matters.

Game gave you advantage with money, just like every other F2P games.

[nslay]

To add more fuel to the fire: What is endgame gear in Warframe?

I'll give you some context. In Diablo 3, you can purchase the Necromancer DLC which unlocks some character slots and use of the Necromancer class.

In Warframe, frames are like character classes in Diablo 3. You have to find the gear to equip on characters in Diablo 3 much like you have to find mods and arcanes to use on your Warframes. So is Prime Access more like the Diablo 3 Necromancer DLC or is it more like instantly getting endgame gear for cash (which I would consider P2W)?

One noteworthy difference is that even prime frames can be earned by grinding the game. The Necromancer must be bought.

[Bioness]

1 hour ago, RX-3DR said:

Are purchased games that have no Microtransactions, but maybe DLC, also P2W? Someone is spending money to for gameplay, and is therefore, paying to win, right? Especially when buying DLCs and expansion packs, that affects gameplay. The definition you're using is way too broad, it's almost indistinguishable from pay to play.

DLC gives a set value to the content, that is the difference. Because of the unknown/varying value to gear and boosters you would be hard pressed to do a cost vs. time comparison for the stuff in Warframe.

League of Legends is an example of a game I would not consider pay-to-win yet is still free-to-play.

A game can be both pay-to-play and pay-to-win, a game can also have DLC and be or not be pay-to-win.

My definition isn't too board. If there is a noticeable advantage on gameplay over other players (PvE does not exempt a game from this) and it is something you buy after the initial cost of the game, I personally would consider it pay-to-win. Again I must stress that pay-to-win is not inherently a bad thing, but there are clear examples where the business model becomes manipulative and unfair, something Warframe is not.

[kuciol]

1 hour ago, Bioness said:

DLC gives a set value to the content, that is the difference. Because of the unknown/varying value to gear and boosters you would be hard pressed to do a cost vs. time comparison for the stuff in Warframe.

League of Legends is an example of a game I would not consider pay-to-win yet is still free-to-play.

A game can be both pay-to-play and pay-to-win, a game can also have DLC and be or not be pay-to-win.

My definition isn't too board. If there is a noticeable advantage on gameplay over other players (PvE does not exempt a game from this) and it is something you buy after the initial cost of the game, I personally would consider it pay-to-win. Again I must stress that pay-to-win is not inherently a bad thing, but there are clear examples where the business model becomes manipulative and unfair, something Warframe is not.

Lol not p2w? Buahahahhahah. A game that gives you direct advantage over oponents if you shell out money to buy champions is not but warframe is? You must be trolling. Pay to win IS bad thing. You either dont know what that is or you are trolling. There is no other option.

Edited September 4, 2019 by kuciol

[IronElf]

PvE game with P2W doesn't make any sense, you get everything buying plat (except login rewards) and what are you gonna do, farm Mobs, who doesn't make any difference to others (maybe you want to get fun, because fun differs) or because you like to be MR 27 without speding time just for the glory of satan. Warframe is more like Pay 2 Not Grind new items or the classic "WTS x Riven offer" and someone PM him with "I have 5k of plat" and we all know how the trade chat/market goes...

It's not like we paid to use Rivens and all-day mods in PvP who can impact negatively in others gameplay. Some people have time, others money, me neither of them. Let them be.

Yes, I'm fun at partyes.

[Rakosta_Kai]

6 hours ago, Bioness said:

1) The starting plat is almost useless and untradeable. There are 500+ pieces of equipment and you start out with less than 6 slots.

2) Nearly all platinum is bought by someone, if no one bought plat there would be none to trade. Why is this such a hard concept? SOMEONE HAS TO SPEND MONEY

3) The stuff bought with plat affects gameplay and not by a small amount either

1. Starting plat is really only useful for buying slots. But since plat is tradeable, you can trade for enough plat to have slots for all your items over time.

Purchasing plat isn't required for this.

       2. Yes... But that doesn't necessitate that it is bought by everyone. 

If you want to make an argument for P2W (or even elements or same) then it has to necessitate that a player pays for an advantage a free players can't get...That simply does not apply here because a player does not have to in order to enjoy the same advantages as someone who does.

       3. Not really...The market doesn't sell mods. Mods are the single largest determiner for true effect on gameplay. Weapons? Frames? Boosters? No. A good set of mods beats all that imo.

For my part, I haven't heard a convincing argument ( an argument that accounts for everything) as to how this game is P2W (of any order) or even has such mechanics so far.

The fact that platinum is tradeable seems to be the most common theme being actively ignored by people who support that stance.

I would dearly love to hear someone explain how the game is P2W when it's premium currency is tradeable and has so few plat sinks to begin with. 

That said though, you do have every right to your opinion.

[Bioness]

4 hours ago, kuciol said:

Lol not p2w? Buahahahhahah. A game that gives you direct advantage over oponents if you shell out money to buy champions is not but warframe is? You must be trolling. Pay to win IS bad thing. You either dont know what that is or you are trolling. There is no other option.

You can prepare in advance to purchase new champions in League of Legends as soon as they come out without paying money. You cannot do that in Warframe and in fact without paying platinum are made to wait 3 and a half days before accessing new frames.

Edited September 4, 2019 by Bioness