Is DE starting to turn in the direction of P2W?

[kuciol]

19 minutes ago, Bioness said:

That video describes Warframes business strategy within the first 5 minutes and even points out that "pay for convenience" is possibly more insidious than "pay to win" because it isn't so obvious.

You completely miss the point. Its not a matter of what you can buy but how you can access the same things without paying. Its about how the entire game is handled that makes it P2W not items offered for rl money.  In warframe you get absolutely nothing for having items faster.

[(PSN)CrazyBeaTzu]

I REALLY wanted to buy an affinity boost but I didnt let them get to me. I just need to breath and take a break from hydron and helene and survival. But I'm so close to MR 12 and I really want this darn RubPrime. Just gotta breathe and take a break

[Bioness]

4 hours ago, kuciol said:

You completely miss the point. Its not a matter of what you can buy but how you can access the same things without paying. Its about how the entire game is handled that makes it P2W not items offered for rl money.  In warframe you get absolutely nothing for having items faster.

I'm not even on that topic anymore. Let it go.

[nslay]

6 hours ago, Bioness said:

That video describes Warframes business strategy within the first 5 minutes and even points out that "pay for convenience" is possibly more insidious than "pay to win" because it isn't so obvious.

Cool video! I think some of these tactics are easily countered by a combination of how you were raised and a dose of critical thinking. Some of this kind of psychological manipulation is just a different form of manipulation you find in other walks of life, like finances, bargaining with street vendors, car salesmen, etc... Now it's in our gaming entertainment!

I think if you want to combat psychological manipulation in games, you just need to educate everyone about psychological manipulation... and that may start to happen if the public finds out about truly egregious examples of psychological manipulation in games (like front-page-news-level of egregious). Much like we're seeing more and more privacy awareness that we somehow lost in the 2000s (because people from the 1990s and prior would never post even half the stuff you see now) owing to uncovered Google and Facebook scandals. We probably lost our notion and value of privacy through some of the same psychological manipulation tactics.

After seeing that video, I do dread a future where game developers and players are in constant combat where players are honing their psychological manipulation awareness and developers are honing their manipulation techniques. Yikes!

DE does indeed practice that artificial bad game design with its foundry. Things that have 8 hour, 12 hour, 1 day, and 3 day build times are outrageous! I get that they try to throttle progression so that we can't finish content too fast, but that's already mostly accomplished with daily standing caps. I don't see any reason for excessive build times other than to exploit impulsive players to rush the bad game design, err.. I mean rush the build.

 

2 hours ago, (PS4)CrazyBeaTzu said:

I REALLY wanted to buy an affinity boost but I didnt let them get to me. I just need to breath and take a break from hydron and helene and survival. But I'm so close to MR 12 and I really want this darn RubPrime. Just gotta breathe and take a break

It's definitely a cool sniper, but definitely not something that you should rush to MR12 to use. If you're at or past MR10, you can use the more powerful Lanka (yes, even with Rubico Prime's impressive 3x Crit Damage and Crit Damage scope bonus, it cannot really overcome that 180% difference in base damage)... slap a Vile Acceleration in the Lanka and it should feel a little more natural. It would be similar to using Opticor Vandal or a bow. Use it in some non-Eidolon missions and you will grow accustomed to it! Then, before you know it, you'll be MR12 and you can try the Rubico Prime (though you might be addicted to Lanka's ridiculously powerful shots by then!).

Edited September 5, 2019 by nslay

[nslay]

6 hours ago, kuciol said:

You completely miss the point. Its not a matter of what you can buy but how you can access the same things without paying. Its about how the entire game is handled that makes it P2W not items offered for rl money.  In warframe you get absolutely nothing for having items faster.

Pay-to-win does not imply exclusive content that must be bought with cash. It implies that the content is either exclusive or behind some progression barrier.

From wikipedia's pay-to-win article:

Quote

In some games, players who are willing to pay for special items or downloadable content may be able to gain an advantage over those playing for free who might otherwise need to spend time progressing in order to unlock said items.

That applies to Warframe. The advantage over other players part is subjective as you can see in this entire thread! And nobody really cares if another player is getting, say, Gauss faster because they paid or grinded Kelpie, Sedna and waited 3 days to build him.

[SneakyErvin]

18 hours ago, SordidDreams said:

Yes, which in a looter/farmer game like WF is going to be the majority of players. A game filled with rich lore and expansive environments to explore like Skyrim, this ain't. Grinding mats and optimizing your build is the only thing there is in WF.

Not even close. Also, D3 allows you targeted crafting that significantly reduces the RNG, letting you roll a specific stat while preserving others, something that DE is virulently opposed to.

Yes, I did, and I gave up very quickly. But I also hate having to trade for everything, a problem that the D3 AH suffered from, where you'd just farm for gold and buy items instead of finding them. So I gave up on the game entirely. My #1 suggestion for improving PoE would be to up the drop rates of everything by a couple orders of magnitude in SSF and disable SSF-to-Standard transfer.

I disagree. The couple games you menioned hardly qualify as "most".

Technically yes, but in a completely unreasonable amount of time.

It still doesnt change that the drop rate of kuva unboosted is still obtained at the same pace as endgame loot in other games. And kuva is about as endgame as a material can get in WF.

Specific crafting in D3 is however not really a thing. Rerolling stats is as harsh as riven rerolling, the difference is that you can lock one stat to be rerolled, but after that you are still limited by the RNG and can only ever reroll that stat. It is also not the crafting I'm talking about. The cube is the real riven comparison, where you toss in materials that are tedious to grind in order for RNGesus to screw you over or Lootcifer to grant you your wishes.

Since you tried SSF you know there are worse systems out there. Worse systems that people actually love anyways since it gives you another level of satisfaction in the chase when things finaly drop. I'm not a big fan of SSF because there is simply too much gear in the pool of PoE. I did however like endgame items like runewords/enchants in MH and D2 that were hard to get.

While the couple of games I mentioned may not be most, you can just keep looking on the list of arpgs and you'll see where the drop rates are at. Grim Dawn, Borderlands and so on also have very low chance for the items you really need to drop. There are the few exceptions in Borderlands where you can chase a specific boss or mini-boss for that item you really need/want, or where you can exploit a broken quest to be able to farm something specific (like Midgets in Wildlife Exploitation Preserve). Though one shouldnt base the common nature of certain things on exploited broken parts of a game. Borderlands also has things at the other end of the grind, where you need to spend long periods of time in order for something to maybe spawn, like the raid boss in Tundra Express. The same was the deal for nemesis bosses in GD. Yet people still play and enjoy those games with their miniscule drop rates and spawns.

What exactly is unreasonable in farming plat? 20 minutes gives you anywhere from around 8-10 plat all the way up to 100+, all depending on what relics you decide to open. That is pretty damn generous when it comes to a premium currency.

[kuciol]

7 hours ago, nslay said:

Pay-to-win does not imply exclusive content that must be bought with cash. It implies that the content is either exclusive or behind some progression barrier.

From wikipedia's pay-to-win article:

That applies to Warframe. The advantage over other players part is subjective as you can see in this entire thread! And nobody really cares if another player is getting, say, Gauss faster because they paid or grinded Kelpie, Sedna and waited 3 days to build him.

Ive never even once said it does. Ive said multiple times its about how the game is handled as whole. In warframe you gain absolutely nothing by having something faster, it doesnt even take that long to get it to begin with and it also gives you easy access to premium currency so it isnt P2W. 

[SordidDreams]

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

It still doesnt change that the drop rate of kuva unboosted is still obtained at the same pace as endgame loot in other games.

That's an assertion, not a fact. An assertion backed by nothing whatsoever, and based on the assumption that endgame loot in other games is balanced well in the first place (which, as you go on to point out a couple paragraphs later, it is not).

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

Specific crafting in D3 is however not really a thing. Rerolling stats is as harsh as riven rerolling, the difference is that you can lock one stat to be rerolled, but after that you are still limited by the RNG and can only ever reroll that stat. It is also not the crafting I'm talking about. The cube is the real riven comparison, where you toss in materials that are tedious to grind in order for RNGesus to screw you over or Lootcifer to grant you your wishes.

Except if RNGsus gives you something that's almost perfect, you can make it perfect by rolling that one bad stat. If we had that in WF, Riven rolling would be a lot less cancerous.

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

Since you tried SSF you know there are worse systems out there. Worse systems that people actually love anyways since it gives you another level of satisfaction in the chase when things finaly drop. I'm not a big fan of SSF because there is simply too much gear in the pool of PoE. I did however like endgame items like runewords/enchants in MH and D2 that were hard to get.

You call it love, I call it Stockholm syndrome.

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

While the couple of games I mentioned may not be most, you can just keep looking on the list of arpgs and you'll see where the drop rates are at. Grim Dawn, Borderlands and so on also have very low chance for the items you really need to drop. There are the few exceptions in Borderlands where you can chase a specific boss or mini-boss for that item you really need/want, or where you can exploit a broken quest to be able to farm something specific (like Midgets in Wildlife Exploitation Preserve). Though one shouldnt base the common nature of certain things on exploited broken parts of a game. Borderlands also has things at the other end of the grind, where you need to spend long periods of time in order for something to maybe spawn, like the raid boss in Tundra Express. The same was the deal for nemesis bosses in GD. Yet people still play and enjoy those games with their miniscule drop rates and spawns.

Sure, you can look at those games. Or you can look at other games, like Morrowind or Dark Souls, where loot is static, and if you know where to go, you can get whatever you need very quickly. And those games are widely regarded as some of the greatest ever made; things like Grim Dawn or Marvel Heroes aren't.

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

What exactly is unreasonable in farming plat? 20 minutes gives you anywhere from around 8-10 plat all the way up to 100+, all depending on what relics you decide to open. That is pretty damn generous when it comes to a premium currency.

I didn't say farming plat was unreasonable.

3 minutes ago, kuciol said:

Ive never even once said it does.

That is true, you quietly assumed it.

[kuciol]

1 minute ago, SordidDreams said:

That is true, you quietly assumed it.

No I didnt. Read next sentence.

[nslay]

7 minutes ago, kuciol said:

Ive never even once said it does. Ive said multiple times its about how the game is handled as whole. In warframe you gain absolutely nothing by having something faster, it doesnt even take that long to get it to begin with and it also gives you easy access to premium currency so it isnt P2W. 

Oh, OK. I must have misread then. Yeah, DE uses the Prime Vault to create artificial rarity for some items, while others are still casually grindable. Having everything unvaulted simultaneously would probably dilute drops in one or several ways. It's an interesting strategy! Plat being tradeable also blurs the P2W aspect. Not everything is so black and white!

As for gaining nothing for instant access... Tell that to people who pay cash for instant access. Something is gained for those players.

[Bioness]

8 hours ago, nslay said:

Cool video! I think some of these tactics are easily countered by a combination of how you were raised and a dose of critical thinking. Some of this kind of psychological manipulation is just a different form of manipulation you find in other walks of life, like finances, bargaining with street vendors, car salesmen, etc... Now it's in our gaming entertainment!

I think if you want to combat psychological manipulation in games, you just need to educate everyone about psychological manipulation... and that may start to happen if the public finds out about truly egregious examples of psychological manipulation in games (like front-page-news-level of egregious). Much like we're seeing more and more privacy awareness that we somehow lost in the 2000s (because people from the 1990s and prior would never post even half the stuff you see now) owing to uncovered Google and Facebook scandals. We probably lost our notion and value of privacy through some of the same psychological manipulation tactics.

After seeing that video, I do dread a future where game developers and players are in constant combat where players are honing their psychological manipulation awareness and developers are honing their manipulation techniques. Yikes!

DE does indeed practice that artificial bad game design with its foundry. Things that have 8 hour, 12 hour, 1 day, and 3 day build times are outrageous! I get that they try to throttle progression so that we can't finish content too fast, but that's already mostly accomplished with daily standing caps. I don't see any reason for excessive build times other than to exploit impulsive players to rush the bad game design, err.. I mean rush the build.

Not sure if you just watched the guy giving a summary, but the full "Let's Go Whaling" video gives more information on how to even circumvent critical thinking. It isn't just about critical thinking and informing people or raising children right, every tobacco product basically says "will #*!%ing kill you"in bold letfers and millions still smoke. Just because people know about it, doesn't mean it will stop.

Edited September 5, 2019 by Bioness

[nslay]

1 minute ago, Bioness said:

Not sure if you just watched the guy giving a summary, but the full "Let's Go Whaling" video gives mire information. It isn't just about critical thinking and informing, every tobacco product basically says "will #*!%ing kill you" and millions still smoke or chew. Just because people know about it, doesn't mean it will cease.

I watched the whole thing. And yes, I believe how you were raised and a dose of critical thinking can make you resistant to some of those tactics. I also believe education and awareness can also help!

Tobacco creates a chemical dependence in your body. Habit combined with the harsh withdrawal effects reinforces the addiction. Even if you rationally want to quit, your body will not let you quit so easily! I don't see how this relevant to gambling and instant gratification addiction... Isn't this more like a personality problem or mental illness?

[Firedtm]

On 2019-08-31 at 7:54 AM, Knight_Ex said:

Wooo, touchy subject I know, but in light of the recent update and looking at the store, aura forma bundle and eidolon lenses, doesn't seem that big of a deal? However these are extremely rare drops in the game, because people were complaining DE decided to appease the wallet warriors, we already have boosters in game, and I understand the argument of P2W in a PVE game not being relevant however there are people that dedicate time and effort into farming these things, for DE to just pop them on the store and says "Hey guys, give us money and we will give you these rare drops", is quite a bit disheartening, not because I don't want this available to other people, I just don't want to see a habit of DE meeting complaints with "Oh lets just throw it on the store", whats next? Umbra forma?

The lens are easy to farm, and so is the aura thing. It is far from P2W, it called pay to be f***ing lazy...

If they add the Umbra forma into the store, than and only than could you barely be able to call it pay to win, as it would be Only one item...

I don’t see them doing that and time soon, as it would kill their business model, and most likely their company.

they really need to bring back the down vote for people like you.

 

[kuciol]

33 minutes ago, nslay said:

As for gaining nothing for instant access... Tell that to people who pay cash for instant access. Something is gained for those players.

Thats just praying on impatient but they gain really nothing. Its not competitive game after all so a week here or there doesnt change anything.

[SordidDreams]

52 minutes ago, kuciol said:

No I didnt. Read next sentence.

Yes you did.

Edited September 5, 2019 by SordidDreams

[kuciol]

3 minutes ago, SordidDreams said:

Yes you did.

Further proof you are just a sad troll. Keep assuming and comparing warframe to single player games that makes your arguments very relate-able you know?

[SordidDreams]

2 minutes ago, kuciol said:

Further proof you are just a sad troll. Keep assuming and comparing warframe to single player games that makes your arguments very relate-able you know?

So I guess you completely missed the part where I said that comparison isn't valid? Or is that just more wilfull misinterpretation on your part?

Edited September 5, 2019 by SordidDreams

[kuciol]

14 minutes ago, SordidDreams said:

So I guess you completely missed the part where I said that comparison isn't valid? Or is that just more wilfull misinterpretation on your part?

And then you proceeded with :

1 hour ago, SordidDreams said:

Sure, you can look at those games. Or you can look at other games, like Morrowind or Dark Souls, where loot is static, and if you know where to go, you can get whatever you need very quickly. And those games are widely regarded as some of the greatest ever made; things like Grim Dawn or Marvel Heroes aren't.

 

[SordidDreams]

5 minutes ago, kuciol said:

And then you proceeded with :

Yes, the point of which is "you can make the comparison go any way you want, so you can't really draw any conclusions from it". Anything else you'd like me to explain in more detail?

[kuciol]

1 minute ago, SordidDreams said:

Yes, the point of which is "you can make the comparison go any way you want, so you can't really draw any conclusions from it". Anything else you'd like me to explain in more detail?

No because you cant , you are the only one bringing up irrelevant, completely different games that have nothing in common with warframe or topic at hand. 

[SneakyErvin]

1 hour ago, SordidDreams said:

That's an assertion, not a fact. An assertion backed by nothing whatsoever, and based on the assumption that endgame loot in other games is balanced well in the first place (which, as you go on to point out a couple paragraphs later, it is not).

Except if RNGsus gives you something that's almost perfect, you can make it perfect by rolling that one bad stat. If we had that in WF, Riven rolling would be a lot less cancerous.

You call it love, I call it Stockholm syndrome.

Sure, you can look at those games. Or you can look at other games, like Morrowind or Dark Souls, where loot is static, and if you know where to go, you can get whatever you need very quickly. And those games are widely regarded as some of the greatest ever made; things like Grim Dawn or Marvel Heroes aren't.

I didn't say farming plat was unreasonable.

PoE is an extreme example since it goes to the really hardcore roots of arpg in so many different ways. SSF isnt the best system, but it was also added as an afterthought several years after release. My point is simply that WF isnt far from the majority of other arpgs out there.

Sure, you may get something perfect, or you get an item you have no use for whatsoever. You arent just fighting the numbers, you are fighting the whole category of weapons aswell in order to get the right one. Then you get to the point where it may be a legendary and you get perfect stats all over, except for the leg roll, which turns the item into instant trash cos it cant be rerolled.

Not quite sure Stockholm syndrome would apply here, but if you wanna use a fancy label ok.

Morrowind and Dark Souls have other designed to them, they arent horde shooters, looter shooters or hack 'n slash games in the vein of "normal" arpgs. One is very story driven, the other comes with much more punishing gameplay systems than others. It is kinda like saying loot in WoW is slow because in DaoC and UO you could craft BiS gear. Never mind that the games are completely different in design and what makes up the endgame. GD and MH are/were regarded as some of the best. They were both up there as the spiritual successors of D2 and both have won several prices because of it. Sadly MH got missmanaged during its last year and people dropped like flies. The reason MH never took off in numbers is because it was a game about superheroes and not the grim-dark fantasy game many arpgers are used to.

What currency did you think I was talking about? Plat is the one that makes everything free.

[TENNO_NOT_FOUND]

On 2019-08-31 at 10:54 AM, Knight_Ex said:

Wooo, touchy subject I know, but in light of the recent update and looking at the store, aura forma bundle and eidolon lenses, doesn't seem that big of a deal? However these are extremely rare drops in the game, because people were complaining DE decided to appease the wallet warriors, we already have boosters in game, and I understand the argument of P2W in a PVE game not being relevant however there are people that dedicate time and effort into farming these things, for DE to just pop them on the store and says "Hey guys, give us money and we will give you these rare drops", is quite a bit disheartening, not because I don't want this available to other people, I just don't want to see a habit of DE meeting complaints with "Oh lets just throw it on the store", whats next? Umbra forma?

I'm going to come off as argumentative here, but please don't get hung up on that. 

What is winning?

Is winning "acquiring rare drops that are marginally better than common drops at a faster rate than people who grind?"
Is winning "finishing your frame's build?"

That needs to be defined.

Your post sounds like you want people to grind for rare items. If that is the case; fine. I agree with you, but are Aura Formas and Eidolon lenses (Items with common variants that are only marginally less powerful and can be ignored at the cost of a little more time modding) the line in the sand you want to draw here, ignoring the fact that Nightwave specifically rewards you with trophy rares for grinding that cannot be acquired through money? Aura Formas and Eidolon Lenses are specific to builds, which can be fast tracked already through trading.

You will need to specify what you consider as "winning" the game. I assert there is no winstate currently. The game is a looter shooter, and endgame is specifically Fashion Frame IIRC (which wallet warriors already win). 

11 hours ago, nslay said:

Pay-to-win does not imply exclusive content that must be bought with cash. It implies that the content is either exclusive or behind some progression barrier.

From wikipedia's pay-to-win article:

That applies to Warframe. The advantage over other players part is subjective as you can see in this entire thread! And nobody really cares if another player is getting, say, Gauss faster because they paid or grinded Kelpie, Sedna and waited 3 days to build him.

This is of note. Claiming that Aura Formas/ Eidolon lenses are pay-to-win because they offer a competitive advantage that progress paying players to winstate faster/easier is quite subjective. A little extra operator focus or flexibility in swapping builds isn't a winstate for me and, I would assume, a reasonable amount of other players. 

Not to mention that, if you really want those items and don't want to leave it up to RNG, you can trade prime parts/corrupted mods for plat without having to pay at all. 

Edited September 5, 2019 by C_MAJOR

[SordidDreams]

4 hours ago, kuciol said:

No because you cant , you are the only one bringing up irrelevant, completely different games that have nothing in common with warframe or topic at hand. 

So I guess you missed the part where that whole comparison thing was a response to SneakyErvin comparing kuva gains to endgame farming in other games? Or is that just more wilfull misinterpretation on your part?

3 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

PoE is an extreme example since it goes to the really hardcore roots of arpg in so many different ways. SSF isnt the best system, but it was also added as an afterthought several years after release. My point is simply that WF isnt far from the majority of other arpgs out there.

Yeah, but WF is not an ARPG, so you're comparing apples and oranges. Also, there's like three ARPGs currently alive, so it's not like being similar to most of them means much even if that were a valid comparison.

3 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

Sure, you may get something perfect, or you get an item you have no use for whatsoever. You arent just fighting the numbers, you are fighting the whole category of weapons aswell in order to get the right one. Then you get to the point where it may be a legendary and you get perfect stats all over, except for the leg roll, which turns the item into instant trash cos it cant be rerolled.

What're you talking about, you can gamble for specific item categories just fine in D3.

3 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

Not quite sure Stockholm syndrome would apply here, but if you wanna use a fancy label ok.

What I mean by that is that these games require so much time investment into doing something unfun that people start liking those unfun activities, because that's the only way their brains can reconcile spending so much time on them.

3 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

Morrowind and Dark Souls have other designed to them, they arent horde shooters, looter shooters or hack 'n slash games in the vein of "normal" arpgs. One is very story driven, the other comes with much more punishing gameplay systems than others. It is kinda like saying loot in WoW is slow because in DaoC and UO you could craft BiS gear. Never mind that the games are completely different in design and what makes up the endgame.

Yeah, but that's what we're talking about here. If WF had a different loot and endgame system, it would be a different type of game.

3 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

GD and MH are/were regarded as some of the best. They were both up there as the spiritual successors of D2 and both have won several prices because of it. Sadly MH got missmanaged during its last year and people dropped like flies. The reason MH never took off in numbers is because it was a game about superheroes and not the grim-dark fantasy game many arpgers are used to.

They're some of the best ARPGs, but in terms of gaming overall they're not really up there. As you say, they are spiritual successors to D2, which is just another way of saying they're derivative. Both MW and DS were genre-defining games (even though similar games existed before, kinda like Doom was the quintessential FPS despite not being the first).

3 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

What currency did you think I was talking about? Plat is the one that makes everything free.

Why did you think I was talking about currency?

Edited September 5, 2019 by SordidDreams

[SneakyErvin]

3 minutes ago, SordidDreams said:

Yeah, but WF is not an ARPG, so you're comparing apples and oranges. Also, there's like three ARPGs currently alive, so it's not like being similar to most of them means much even if that were a valid comparison.

What're you talking about, you can gamble for specific item categories just fine in D3.

What I mean by that is that these games require so much time investment into doing something unfun that people start liking those unfun activities, because that's the only way their brains can reconcile spending so much time on them.

Yeah, but that's what we're talking about here. If WF had a different loot and endgame system, it would be a different type of game.

They're some of the best ARPGs, but in terms of gaming overall they're not really up there. As you say, they are spiritual successors to D2, which is just another way of saying they're derivative. Both MW and DS were genre-defining games (even though similar games existed before, kinda like Doom was the quintessential FPS despite not being the first).

Why did you think I was talking about currency?

WF is very much an arpg. The term doesnt mean it needs to be isometric. It is a horde looter shooter sub genre of arpgs, just as Neverwinter is a MMOARPG game with a trinity lite system, and Star Trek turned the same several years ago. Just as the elder scrolls games all the way back to Arena are arpgs. Though they are story driven and not hack n' slash dungeon crawlers. So there are several arpgs out there and what we should do is compare WF to other mos and even mmos out there.

Sure, but each category has several weapons in it aswell as 3 different rarities, where one is a complete waste and the second can work if you have great luck on the rolls.

That has been the nature of arpgs since they began with Diablo and Nox. Welcome to the party.

Those games were definently up there in terms of gaming. The concept of GD has gone strong ever since Titan Quest, which was also seen as a better successor to D2 than D3 was. GD and MH just happened to be far more inline. GD with the grittyness and a system very close to TQ and MH with a system very similar to D2, but with far better quickslot options and a more fluid movement. Both games had/have solid boss mechanics, a good sense in boss rushing like that of D2 and customization that goes far and deep.

Why did I think you were talking about currency? You answered me with a "Technically yes, but in a completely unreasonable amount of time." regarding what I said about how WF is completely free if you just grind for the currency needed. And which currency helps us play for free? Ta-da! Plat!

[SordidDreams]

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

WF is very much an arpg. The term doesnt mean it needs to be isometric. It is a horde looter shooter sub genre of arpgs, just as Neverwinter is a MMOARPG game with a trinity lite system, and Star Trek turned the same several years ago. Just as the elder scrolls games all the way back to Arena are arpgs. Though they are story driven and not hack n' slash dungeon crawlers. So there are several arpgs out there and what we should do is compare WF to other mos and even mmos out there.

You're stretching the definition of that term beyond all reason. Yes, technically all those games are ARPGs in that they are RPGs with action combat (as opposed to some turn-based system), but that kind of literalist interpretation refutes itself when you realize you barely do any roleplaying at all in any of those games. The reality is that ARPG is very much a synonym for Diablo-clone; the actual words from which the acronym is composed are irrelevant, it's basically idiomatic at this point.

2 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

Sure, but each category has several weapons in it aswell as 3 different rarities, where one is a complete waste and the second can work if you have great luck on the rolls.

No. No, it can't.

2 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

That has been the nature of arpgs since they began with Diablo and Nox. Welcome to the party.

Diablo 1 is one of my favorite games of all time, and as such I can tell you with 100% certainty that you're wrong. D1 was a very, very different game from D2 and its successors. Grinding for resources was just not a thing that existed in D1, because there simply weren't any besides gold, and you'd easily end up with literally more of it than you could carry (what with it taking up inventory space).

2 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

Those games were definently up there in terms of gaming. The concept of GD has gone strong ever since Titan Quest, which was also seen as a better successor to D2 than D3 was. GD and MH just happened to be far more inline. GD with the grittyness and a system very close to TQ and MH with a system very similar to D2, but with far better quickslot options and a more fluid movement. Both games had/have solid boss mechanics, a good sense in boss rushing like that of D2 and customization that goes far and deep.

Having played Titan Quest, I really don't understand why people are so enamored with it. It's complete garbage in almost every way, even in comparison to games that came out earlier than it. And no, no derivative game can ever be 'up there' with genre-defining titles.

2 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

Why did I think you were talking about currency? You answered me with a "Technically yes, but in a completely unreasonable amount of time." regarding what I said about how WF is completely free if you just grind for the currency needed. And which currency helps us play for free? Ta-da! Plat!

Ah, I see. I thought you were misusing the word to mean "resources", since that's grinding for resources to obtain gameplay-affecting items is kinda what the whole conversation was about. That's why I was confused, because you can get everything that affects gameplay without buying or trading for plat at all. Nobody in the course of this entire conversation said anything about cosmetics, which are the only thing you need plat for, so I don't know why you brought those up. Though since you have, I feel obliged to point out there are some you can't get with plat (e.g. Prime Accessories).