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TheGodofWiFi

Baruuk needs a few tweaks.

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While I agree with you on some points, Im playing slight devil’s advocate here 

46 minutes ago, TheGodofWiFi said:

 

Some major differences between them though are;

Exalted Blade does more damage and has more status.

 

46 minutes ago, TheGodofWiFi said:

Exalted Blade does not require a combo counter to be good.

Honestly you shouldve also tested it with primary fury. It has shorter range, but its damage scales so much better due to having a jerry-rigged bloodrush (glad set on helios) and having such high crit AND status

46 minutes ago, TheGodofWiFi said:

On paper, Baruuk tanks better than Wukong. In game, he does not due to his incredibly poor mechanics. And in game function is where the final judgement is made as to whether a frame is good or not.

Baruuk was judged to be inferior.

Everyone seems to

forget tanking doesnt just include DR or free invincibility. Wukong has innate health regen in his kit. Sure, we can get around that issue with other frames, but it still matters that he just has to move 50 meters in his 2 to heal 100% of hp whereas baruuk needs some outside factor 

46 minutes ago, TheGodofWiFi said:

Because we’re going by how much an Exalted frame can handle and how much damage it can do on its own.

If the frame abilities are good, the weapons aren’t need. Excalibur and Wukong can handle endgame just fine with their abilities and Exalted weapons.

Baruuk can’t

The only way Ive found him viable really late game is with a occur (a weapon i love) build for status out the ass. Can proc 6 effects so CO on my baruuk build clears well, but of course no other exalted needs my occur 😕 

46 minutes ago, TheGodofWiFi said:

And you have just pointed out why Desolate Hands has issues once again; its trying to be too many things at once and not dedicating itself towards one specific purpose, which is exactly why its a bad ability.

Loki’s Disarm focuses only on disarming and his invisibility keeps him alive. Gara’s Storm focuses on keeping her and others she chooses alive at the same time.

Baruuk is trying to do both of these frames jobs at once, with one ability and he really does not need too. Its way too much and it suffers for it. Its not silly to point out that CC is simply not need on that ability.

It’s not comparing apples to oranges, its pointing out that the orange is trying to be an apple and a strawberry alongside being an orange.

Bear in mind you are complaining that a 40 second timer is not enough for a reworked Desolate Hands.

The argument could be made that a timer is the incorrect way to reimplement DH. Honestly I dont have issues with how DH works by disarming enemies, and I dont really find daggers hitting enemies as an issue, since I usually run enough strength to have 17 daggers. My issue is that it also flies to allies, which sucks when you are setting up for a mission. Giving that banshee 30% dr that will evaporate the second she gets surrounded sucks for me because It forces me to recast DH and effectively count those daggers as wasted. 

46 minutes ago, TheGodofWiFi said:

It absolutely makes a difference if the ability is 20s or 30s. That ten seconds in a game as fast paced as this is a gift. He more duration your CC has the better it is. 

Thats what happens with all sleep abilities apart from the fact that with Ivara and Equinox’s they wake up once 50% of their current health is depleted. 

It’s compensation for the ability having such a huge range. Although I do admit the slow effect is annoying it would be great if it was an instant sleep.

Yep

46 minutes ago, TheGodofWiFi said:

It’s still an amazing CC ability though as it puts enemies into sleep for a long time and it gives you time to have some free shots.

Yea because its permanent. Obviously a timer is going to shorter compared to that.

By timing standards, its a pretty nice amount of time to have damage reduction and you can get by fine with that. 

And is another reason why it is terrible. It takes a full 15 seconds to disarm 15 enemies. That is straight up awful.

This all is with the preconceived notion that you use DH to disarm targets. You shouldnt activate DH with the idea “oh boy im gonna disarm those enemies really good”, as its main purpose is damage reduction, which it does decent with. Being able to go over the cap of daggers required for 90% is mainly the reason. If they had capped the dagger count to 9 for that 90% dr the entire ability would be worthless.  

46 minutes ago, TheGodofWiFi said:

Having a real, good timer in which you can cast the ability before it runs out and all the daggers fly off at once, would be a lot better. 

A pitiful amount compared to the amount of restraint you could loose if all the enemies where disarmed at once, which would be a decent chunk, therefore making it easier to work with his four.

You see how these changes would make his synergy better as opposed to worse?

According to the rest of the player-base, thats not exactly true. 

People don’t want pre-rework Wukong, but they don’t want to have an anti-synergetic frame thats clunky to use either. There is a fine balance and Baruuk does not meet it.

So are a lot of popular tanks like Rhino, Nezha, Chroma and Inaros.

*looks at revenant, mesa, gara, nova (to an extent) who also tank cause free dr* 

46 minutes ago, TheGodofWiFi said:

Please post an example of this. One because it sounds hilarious as hel that enemies can be distracted by a cute kitty so much that they don’t shoot at the ancient bio-mechanical war-machine that is sitting in the middle of them.

Two, because it doesn’t happen.

Ive had it happen before, but its rare enough that its a non-issue. 

46 minutes ago, TheGodofWiFi said:

This is pure hyperbole.

No it doesn’t. If all the enemies prefer cooing at your cat than paying attention to you, despite you being in their faces then thats a problem with the AI, not the ability. This is probably one of the funniest attempts at making an ability seem bad I have ever seen haha.

Enemies target based on “threat level.” That means for whatever reason the kavat was more dangerous then the wukong 😂

46 minutes ago, TheGodofWiFi said:

Which you immediately start to loose due to enemies around you. Defy never looses its buff like that.

Dude, you’re using the concentration thing again. Thats not a real defence/argument as a players concentration has absolutely zero bearing on whether or not an ability is good. Just because you don’t like timers because it requires you to pay that little bit more attention to your abilities, doesn’t mean it is bad.

Stop putting this forward. Personal Concentration levels are utterly irrelevant in judging an abilities usefulness.

Truth

46 minutes ago, TheGodofWiFi said:

If I’m using Gara and I did not notice my Splinter timer run out due to me not paying attention and subsequently dying, that doesn’t mean the ability sucks. At all. No one would take you seriously if you used that as criticism.

Not if you actually concentrate and use his other abilities like Lull and then recast DH, therefore creating more synergy between abilities.

Apart from the ones that have been listed and you demonstrated.

Desolate Hands suffers from the same poor design as his other abilities in many ways. It tried to do too much all at once, its clunky and annoying to use and it could be so much better.

I honestly don’t know why you think this is good argument. You’re basically promoting less synergy when that is precisely Baruuk’s problem.

Simply looking at it like that doesn’t mean everyone will think “Oh okay this ability is fine” because they evidently have not. Its poorly designed way of making the daggers run out and a true timer would suit the ability for better.

You haven’t provided any strong arguments as to why the ability has no issues and instead have only highlighted how good some changes would do it. I mean you used your own personal attention span and a non-existent situation in which enemies are more interested in your cat than you try and make enemy input tank abilities look bad, as your defence points.

Is it a worthless ability? No, obviously not. Is it perfect? Also no. Its usable, but needs some QoL touch ups and help. 

46 minutes ago, TheGodofWiFi said:

Its not a convincing argument.

 

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Since everyone's throwing their ideas around, i guess i might as well chime in :

  • Elude :
    • Should not cost energy to maintain, only to activate. you shouldn't have to pay 2.5 energy every second (the same drain as exalted blade !) to NOT play the game.
    • Should be your most effective way to lower restraint, and would thus need to be more effective at that. again, since you're forced to stop playing warframe while it's active, it needs to make itself worth your while (and it currently doesn't).
  • Lull :
    • Lower the downtime before enemies are put to sleep, as it's currently a much worse version of radial blind.
  • Desolate hands :
    • while this ability is active without elude, daggers won't leave you unless an enemy shoots you (think of mesmer skin with a disarm instead of a stun).
    • While elude is active, the ability will work as it currently does, throwing daggers all over the place. this'd essentially give baruuk the ability to go ''all in'' on restraint reduction, chucking daggers left and right while avoiding all damage at the cost of passivity.
  • Desert storm
    • reduce crit chance to 30%, and increase status chance to 25% : currently, the ability stops scaling once enemy armor goes crazy, leaving you with a nigh-useless exalted weapon that can't get through them. 
    • Allow the waves to increase combo counter : pretty self-explanatory. besides, excal doesn't suffer that drawback, and his exalted ability is about the sword just as much as its shockwaves! Meanwhile, baruuk's is nigh-entirely about the wind strikes (hell, it's in the name of the ability) and while they look cool, they become completely irrelevant at levels that aren't even that high !

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On 2019-09-04 at 7:18 PM, (PS4)CommanderC2121 said:

Honestly you shouldve also tested it with primary fury. It has shorter range, but its damage scales so much better due to having a jerry-rigged bloodrush (glad set on helios) and having such high crit AND status

It has the same range, it's just that Serene Storm is wider in it's spread. So EB is more precise, but SS has a wider cone. You don't actually need Bloodrush to be completely honest, because the status carries it all the way into late late game.

On 2019-09-04 at 7:18 PM, (PS4)CommanderC2121 said:

Everyone seems toforget tanking doesnt just include DR or free invincibility.

What Flitz is specifcally referring to is how much damage one frame can face tank stat wise, not gameplay wise. This is becuase he's trying to prove Baruuk's Desolate Hands is an awesome ability. I know that tanking can mean more than just having DR, but thats not what Flitz is focusing on.

On 2019-09-04 at 7:18 PM, (PS4)CommanderC2121 said:

Can proc 6 effects so CO on my baruuk build clears well, but of course no other exalted needs my occur

Exactly. No other Exalted weapon requires this sort of effort and it's not even worth it.

On 2019-09-04 at 7:18 PM, (PS4)CommanderC2121 said:

The argument could be made that a timer is the incorrect way to reimplement DH. Honestly I dont have issues with how DH works by disarming enemies, and I dont really find daggers hitting enemies as an issue, since I usually run enough strength to have 17 daggers.

The problem is though is that you do not have any control over the daggers and they have insane range unless you purposely cripple Baruuk by building for negative range. It's not neccesarily disarming enemies I don't like, it's just that it does it incredibly slowly and as a result is really clunky to use. If it was changed so that the daggers only seek enemies once you recast Desolate Hands a second time, a timer would be neccesary, otherwise you could just run around with a permanent 90% damage reduction, which isn't very balanced. As for allies I don't think they should be getting any of the daggers at all. Gara already provides a far superior form of damage reduction to allies. It's an example of Baruuk trying to do too much with one ability.

On 2019-09-04 at 7:18 PM, (PS4)CommanderC2121 said:

You shouldnt activate DH with the idea “oh boy im gonna disarm those enemies really good”, as its main purpose is damage reduction

Yea I know. It's just that the disarm would be a lot more useful if we had more control over the daggers and would make it a worthwhile side-salad to the main damage reduction.

On 2019-09-04 at 7:18 PM, (PS4)CommanderC2121 said:

Ive had it happen before, but its rare enough that its a non-issue. 

Its still just a problem with the AI though and it doesn't mean enemy input abilities are bad, which vFlitz is claiming they are.

On 2019-09-04 at 7:18 PM, (PS4)CommanderC2121 said:

Enemies target based on “threat level.” That means for whatever reason the kavat was more dangerous then the wukong 😂

Well I mean, my cat can get pretty scary if he hasn't been fed at the right time haha. Give me an ancient war machine any day over that.

On 2019-09-04 at 7:18 PM, (PS4)CommanderC2121 said:

Its usable, but needs some QoL touch ups and help. 

Couldn't agree more.

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1 hour ago, (NSW)Katsuro said:

Laughs in arbritrations while everyone else dies while playing as Baruuk

Wait, im confused...you are playing as baruuk and laughing while others die, or laughing while other people, who are playing baruuk, die? 

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4 minutes ago, (PS4)CommanderC2121 said:

Wait, im confused...you are playing as baruuk and laughing while others die, or laughing while other people, who are playing baruuk, die? 

edited

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10 minutes ago, (NSW)Katsuro said:

edited

Ahh, thank you. Sorry if I seemed anal about that, I didnt mean to come off like that. 

 

On another note, it is funny when I play baruuk and end missions and people ask me “wait how’d you only take 6% damage after a 30 min survival?” Cause I guess they dont know I have 5 forms of dr in my build 😉 

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5 minutes ago, (PS4)CommanderC2121 said:

Ahh, thank you. Sorry if I seemed anal about that, I didnt mean to come off like that. 

 

On another note, it is funny when I play baruuk and end missions and people ask me “wait how’d you only take 6% damage after a 30 min survival?” Cause I guess they dont know I have 5 forms of dr in my build 😉 

sometimes they say to me woah Baruuk glad to see other players using him

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Le 31/08/2019 à 21:39, TheGodofWiFi a dit :

Firstly this is not a rework I'm suggesting, just some QoL tweaks.

Baruuk is one of the Warframes you very rarely see running around in random missions, which is a shame, because his concept is very interesting. It's just the implementation of some of his powers is really not that great. Desolate Hands does not synergise well with the rest of his kit as it directly suffers as a result of you building for his first two abilities; Elude and Lull. Right now you either build for range or build for strength with negative range. The former high-range build renders Desolate Hands useless as a player defense power as it means the trigger distance for a dagger to fly off onto and enemy/ally is extremely far, especially when you have Elude active. The latter negative range build in-turn renders Elude and Lull a virtually useless as they require decent range to be effective.

Desert Wind also is not a very good exalted weapon due to the energy waves not counting towards the combo counter. Since it's doubtful Baruuk will get something like Excalibur's Chromatic Blade augment, this means that Desert Wind is just not very good as the ragdoll effect works directly against building a combo counter.

His kit needs tweaks in order to put Baruuk in a decent place, because right now he is another victim of being less useful than a lot of other frames that can do his job and he is rarely used/seen outside of dedicated XP farms like Hydron as a result.

My suggestons for tweaking Desolate Hands and Desert Wind/Serene Storm inparticular would respectively be;

  • Tweak DH so that the daggers do not automatically fly off onto enemies/allies and instead make it so that the daggers stay with the player until the ability is cast again, upon which the daggers will then fly off all at once to the nearest group of enemies/allies.
  • Tweak Serene Storm so that the waves count towards the combo counter or sacrifice some crit chance to buff up the status, so the waves at least have status build potential. Both options would increase Serene Storms usefullness as an exalted weapon.

I would also add a few tweaks to both his Restraint passive and an extra one to Serene Storm;

  • Increase the amount of Restraint lost when using abilities as right now it is too slow even when using all three of his abilities.
  • Remove the 50% damage Reduction on Restraint and the 40% damage reduction on Serene Storm. This is to compensate for having more control over the daggers which already give you enough damage reduction at a cap of 90% with nine daggers which is easy to achieve with a small amount of power strength.
    • Baruuk simply does not need to have so many different ways of reducing damage. That sounds like a silly thing to say on paper, but in practical terms it really is not. All Baruuk needs is for his Desolate Hands to be tweaked so he has more control over them and you don't need anything else. A flat 90% damage reduction on one ability is good enough. Having too many ways of reducing damage ironically means he ends up being more of a hassle than other frames with the same damage reduction capability.
  • Replace the damage reduction on the Restraint passive with a melee attack speed and/or reload speed buff perhaps. This would also go with his theme of becoming more agitated as his Restraint goes down.

These are just some QoL tweaks that would make Baruuk more attractive to use IMO. The concept of pacafist Monk who is actually a John Wick style badass fighter is an awesome one and Baruuk should live up to it, but right now he really doesn't. As the old saying goes; other frames can do his job but a lot better. With these changes, his Desolate Hands would synergise with the rest of his kit, Serene Storm would be a more useful exalted weapon and his Restraint would be able to offer us a different buff as opposed the same one that two (one if these tweaks were implemented) abilities already do.

Baruuk has a lot of potential, but right now he is just another forgotten frame.

I wouldn't lower Baruuk damage mitigation mechanics (especially since he doesn't necessarily have all of them, all the time) or at least not remove them entirely cause Baruuk isn't much resilient at first, his health is quite pathetic for example. In fact a nullifier only can make him die in a sec if you're not careful enough.

I wouldn't care much about combos since it's likely to be removed along with melee 3.0 in 2044, at this point Serene Storm will definitely be buffed along with Excalibur's own blade. More status could be nice (perhaps an augment who knows) but a whole armor scaling/elemental damages rework would be better.

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