Ability Redundancy, Ability Dependency, and Razorwing

[Koekr]

Warframe struggles with ability redundancy. This is especially noticeable with abilities that primarily deal damage, which if they must compete with weapon damage, just cannot keep up. Ember's fireball comes to mind. The abilities that escape this redundancy have at least one method of power scaling that keeps them relevant, like Saryn's spores and Wisp's sol gate, or have some other necessary utility. Chroma's spectral scream is a special example of an ability with slightly useful utility, but due to how it forces itself to compete with weapon damage, it renders itself unusable. If you could use weapons while spectral scream is active, it would be a knockdown resistor with the bonus of dealing damage and elemental procs, which may or may not find a niche use.

And when abilities don't have to compete with weapons, they have to compete with each other, due to the inherent nature of convenience, time, and energy costs. Trinity's well of life, depending on who you ask, is either made entirely redundant by blessing or just barely escapes redundancy. Chroma's spectral scream yet again makes itself redundant due to its nature as a channeled ability interfering with energy regeneration. Sometimes abilities aren't useful simply because the time and energy cost is needed for a different ability.

On the other side, there's ability dependency. Of course, every warframe is dependent on their abilities, the ideal warframe has a use for all of their abilities. The 'ability dependency' problem is actually an issue of imbalanced use, but in the opposite direction of ability redundancy. The dependency on razorwing only becomes a problem when you have to stay in it for all combat, because it's the only way to survive and deal damage (Yes, this is another titania thread, but without my weird ideas). I like razorwing, it feels good to use, but I'm always wanting to use my other abilities and weapons, and even that +25% bullet-jump trampoline thing.

Now here's the part where I talk about issues with Titania's abilities that aren't related to redundancy nor dependency:
Spellbind's status immunity is fantastic, but self-casting it is an annoying process that should be less annoying.
Tribute's buffs should offer far more of a reward considering the risk taken in acquiring these buffs. Especially of note is entangle and thorns, where slowing movement speed doesn't help Titania and damage reflection scales extremely poorly.
Lantern is still too unreliable, and probably just bugged. The lantern doesn't seem to grab and hold the attention of enemies properly, teammates can still move the lantern by shooting it (which usually pushes it far into the distance, out of range of anything), and AI allies will always shoot it rather than ignore it. I like how it moves when I shoot it, but not when my teammates do, and I wish there was an actual incentive to push it.

Simply put, Titania is absolutely too dependent on razorwing, due to the convenience of its survivability and crowd control that her other abilities offer too late and too slowly. This is not to say razorwing is overpowered, whether or not that's true, but her other abilities struggle for relevancy in its shadow.

[anonymous14z]

Being brainless (and feeling like this post deserves a bump)

I guess Titania is a kind of vulgar one-trick pony for the most part; Razorwing, Razorwing, Razorwing, why not accept her one-dimensionalness kinda like how saryn is stuck doing the spares->miasma combo, or how inaros's gimmick is his durability. Indeed what you propose here is somewhat, well, accepted to me, most warframes I use are one-trick ponies (although they do their trick well) so why not accept this mindset for Titania as well?
Even then, having non one-trick ponies (in terms of abilities) tends to introduce too much complexity; Imagine if volt were made today, his speed ability (his one-trick) would be boosted by his other abilities in a -somewhat- convoluted way, why not enjoy the simplicity?

[Koekr]

1 hour ago, anonymous14z said:

Being brainless (and feeling like this post deserves a bump)

I guess Titania is a kind of vulgar one-trick pony for the most part; Razorwing, Razorwing, Razorwing, why not accept her one-dimensionalness kinda like how saryn is stuck doing the spares->miasma combo, or how inaros's gimmick is his durability. Indeed what you propose here is somewhat, well, accepted to me, most warframes I use are one-trick ponies (although they do their trick well) so why not accept this mindset for Titania as well?
Even then, having non one-trick ponies (in terms of abilities) tends to introduce too much complexity; Imagine if volt were made today, his speed ability (his one-trick) would be boosted by his other abilities in a -somewhat- convoluted way, why not enjoy the simplicity?

It's fair to enjoy simplicity, but I guess I'm more of a BIG BRAIN TIME player, and I originally played Titania because her potential complexity seemed pretty cool to me. Wrapping my head around the mechanics of a character is part of the fun to me.

[(PSN)Ozymandias-13-]

21 hours ago, Koekr said:

Tribute's buffs should offer far more of a reward considering the risk taken in acquiring these buffs. Especially of note is entangle and thorns, where slowing movement speed doesn't help Titania and damage reflection scales extremely poorly.

All damage reflection in the game should be converted to true damage, and the reflected percentages re-balanced. The slow could probably be replaced outright (thorns too if it isn't improved).

[Teridax68]

I really like this post, and I think it touches upon some pretty serious issues with Warframe's ability design that are rarely talked about at all, let alone with any amount of argumentation or examples. My thoughts on the three/four points brought up:

• Ability redundancy: I completely agree that there is a recurring issue with redundant abilities in Warframe, and I think the redundancy comes from two different factors:
  • Abilities redundant next to other abilities: In a lot of older frames especially, some kits have abilities that achieve largely the same purpose, mainly because they're designed fulfil the same specific thematic and gameplay function. The main problem usually comes from first abilities that are "baby" versions of ones unlocked later on, e.g. Freeze vs. Avalanche, Shock vs. Discharge, Fireball vs. World on Fire, etc.
  • Abilities redundant next to weapons: While not all damage abilities compete with weapons, they tend to do so when they play like a weapon (e.g. aim at a point, fire, and have damage travel from the frame to the selected point), more so if they take over the player's aim and control like a weapon. This makes for difficult balance, because the only abilities like this that then see use are those that are better than most weapons: Wisp's Sol Gate competes with weapons in usage due to how it overrides weapon controls, but when used in proper combination with her motes can melt through enemies better than the rest of her available arsenal, which is why it sees use. By contrast, Spectral Scream is far behind most weapons, and thus is completely undesirable.
• Ability dependency: I think the main problem with ability dependency is a) when the frame ends up being helpless without an ability, which generally means that frame gets screwed particularly hard by Nullifiers and Energy drains, and b) when there's no real choice to using the ability, as is the case with Razorwing, where you basically always want it toggled on (which basically means you never really have a passive in the process, not that Titania's own was ever that spectacular). If an ability's meant to be always used without much further thought, it might as well be a passive.
• Needless inconvenience: Despite being a game with fluidity as one of its biggest assets, Warframe has a fair amount of pointless inconvenience thrown into some of its design, notably with ability casting animations, ragdolling that makes it more difficult to hit enemies' weak spots, and even invincibility toggles on enemies that makes it impossible to hit them at all. All of these are frustrating, and in pretty much all cases the payoff of that inconvenience is unclear, perhaps even nonexistent.

Thoughts on how to address these:

• Abilities that are redundant due to other abilities in the same kit should just be reworked and made to have some different function. Modern kits are designed to have distinct abilities with self-synergy, and that should be the model to follow.
• Weapon-like abilities I think should just get taken out, and to a further degree I think even Exalted weapons should just be made into innate weapons, a la Garuda's Talons, and be rebalanced accordingly. Abilities should exist to offer gameplay that differs completely from weapons and ideally complements them, so when they conflict with them instead, that simply makes the frame that much more shallow.
• A warframe being dependent on a particular ability is a more complex problem to solve: when the ability is a survivability effect (and most frames at this point are dependent on some sort of ability-based durability to survive), the issue is more that frames have ended up being designed, and not just balanced, around the game's terrible scaling model, and so the only solution to that would be to comprehensively address damage and scaling in Warframe. When the ability is simply the only one worth using in a kit, that's not just the fault of the ability itself, but also the rest, which deserves to be made desirable, as I think is the case for Titania.
• As for inconvenience in abilities, it should just go. With respect to the above mentioned pain points:
  • Most, if not all abilities should just have one-handed animations, and thus not interfere with the rest of the player's actions.
  • Abilities should suspend enemies instead of ragdolling them, or alternatively, ragdolled enemies should take bonus weak point damage from body shots as well.
  • No ability should toggle invincibility on an enemy, unless that enemy is made to truly switch sides, and does not interrupt gameplay otherwise.

So with Titania, based on the above, she should probably have her survivability shifted away from Razorwing and onto another of her abilities (Tribute, for example, which needs an update anyways and also provides dodge), and should have her cast animations streamlined, with Lantern also reworked to make its victims easier to kill. There's more that needs to be done to fix her (Lantern and Spellbind are too similar overall, and her passive doesn't work at all with Razorwing), but that could at least be a step forward.

[Koekr]

1 hour ago, Teridax68 said:

Weapon-like abilities I think should just get taken out, and to a further degree I think even Exalted weapons should just be made into innate weapons, a la Garuda's Talons, and be rebalanced accordingly. Abilities should exist to offer gameplay that differs completely from weapons and ideally complements them, so when they conflict with them instead, that simply makes the frame that much more shallow.

(Lantern and Spellbind are too similar overall, and her passive doesn't work at all with Razorwing)

While you make a lot of good points, I disagree with a few things in these specific parts.

1. Exalted weapons are fine as they are. They are often unique, such as Excalibur's exalted blade launching energy waves, and generally feel good to use. Garuda's talons don't have an energy cost to use and don't even have a unique in-built stance mod. When balance issues arise with exalted weapons, I don't think the solution is to take away their uniqueness. Valkyr's hysteria is my personal gold standard for exalted weapon abilities, seeing as it discourages continuous use while at the same time feeling extremely good to use, in my opinion.
2. Weapon-like abilities have their place, they just need to be balanced to have a unique place, rather than getting overshadowed by weapons.
3. Lantern and spellbind are very different abilities. They both make things float, but that's it. Spellbind is more of a panic button while lantern works longer and takes more forethought.
4. I actually don't disagree with her passive not working with Razorwing, but I see a lot of people suggesting replacing it entirely, so I feel like I should at least say I like her passive. However, I still think it deserves some kind of synergy with Razorwing, maybe the 'trampolines' it creates should benefit Titania during Razorwing? Or maybe while bullet-jumping, Razorwing has an instant cast time?

Edited September 4, 2019 by Koekr

[Gaxxian]

hace 1 hora, Teridax68 dijo:

So with Titania, based on the above, she should probably have her survivability shifted away from Razorwing and onto another of her abilities (Tribute, for example, which needs an update anyways and also provides dodge), and should have her cast animations streamlined, with Lantern also reworked to make its victims easier to kill. There's more that needs to be done to fix her (Lantern and Spellbind are too similar overall, and her passive doesn't work at all with Razorwing), but that could at least be a step forward.

If a frame completely depends from 1 continuous effect ability, changing it to several abilities with several durations isnt a solution... just to the contrary, you will just kill that frame.

Instead of killing the only one good ability from that frame, you just need to make the others abilities attractive from other gameplay approaches.

For example: give Titania an aoe ability where during X seconds, razorflies appear to attack enemies and heal allies. That will promote different builds and styles (instead of destroying the existent ones).

[Gaxxian]

hace 19 minutos, Koekr dijo:

4. I actually don't disagree with her passive not working with Razorwing, but I see a lot of people suggesting replacing it entirely, so I feel like I should at least say I like her passive. However, I still think it deserves some kind of synergy with Razorwing, maybe the 'trampolines' it creates should benefit Titania during Razorwing? Or maybe while bullet-jumping, Razorwing has an instant cast time?

Or change it for an aoe around Titania. She will still dont benefit in razorwing form, but at least her allies will obtain the buff.

[Teridax68]

19 minutes ago, Koekr said:

While you make a lot of good points, I disagree with a few things in these specific parts.

1. Exalted weapons are fine as they are. They are often unique, such as Excalibur's exalted blade launching energy waves, and generally feel good to use. Garuda's talons don't have an energy cost to use and don't even have a unique in-built stance mod. When balance issues arise with exalted weapons, I don't think the solution is to take away their uniqueness. Valkyr's hysteria is my personal gold standard for exalted weapon abilities, seeing as it discourages continuous use while at the same time feeling extremely good to use, in my opinion.
2. Weapon-like abilities have their place, they just need to be balanced to have a unique place, rather than getting overshadowed by weapons.
3. Lantern and spellbind are very different abilities. They both make things float, but that's it. Spellbind is more of a panic button while lantern works longer and takes more forethought.
4. I actually don't disagree with her passive not working with Razorwing, but I see a lot of people suggesting replacing it entirely, so I feel like I should at least say I like her passive. However, I still think it deserves some kind of synergy with Razorwing, maybe the 'trampolines' it creates should benefit Titania during Razorwing? Or maybe while bullet-jumping, Razorwing has an instant cast time?

This is largely fair. My thoughts on these individual points:

1. I do agree that, in isolation, Exalted weapons are fine. I also have no intention of taking away their uniqueness, if by uniqueness we are talking about their unique mechanics, e.g. Exalted Blade's light waves as you mentioned. However, I do not believe that this uniqueness can only be obtained via making the weapon an ability as well: if Exalted Blade were simply an innate weapon with no energy cost, light waves, but then some tradeoff in attack speed or the like, it would still likely be fine (in fact, it may not even need much of a tradeoff at all, as decoupling it from ability form would remove the Power Strength scaling and bring it in line with other weapons). Overall, this would give the affected frames more options, as they'd still have their weapons, or weapon-like abilities, on top of an extra "real" ability.
   • Sub-point here, but a lot of Exalted weapons are not actually that unique, and deserve to be made unique regardless of whether or not they get moved: Wukong's Iron Staff is just a regular staff with big stats, for example, and Hildryn's Balefire launcher is just a standard launcher that doesn't really interact with the rest of her kit. Even Valkyr's claws are just standard claws attached to an invincibility toggle, which does not need to be restricted to a single weapon to work (and the fact that it's attached to her claws specifically is what's messing her up right now post-Melee 2.9). Garuda is thus not the only frame with a boring weapon exclusive to her, and her own talons deserve to be made more unique as well.
2. I feel that balancing weapon-like abilities to have a place is inevitably going to entail making them less weapon-like: if, for example, you want to make Fireball instead provide utility by stripping an opponent's armor, that'll make the ability a utility tool, rather than a weapon, which I agree would be fine because it would change its function (or, rather, give it a function when it currently has none). Giving them both damage and either CC or utility, however, runs the risk of having the ability make weapons themselves redundant, since at that point the ability would do everything a weapon could and more. At that stage, the only way to differentiate the two would be to change how one uses the ability, because if all you're doing is pointing at a target and clicking to shoot stuff at them, you've basically got a weapon-plus ability right there.
3. I'd say the difference is debatable, as Spellbind's cast delay makes it especially poorly-suited for a panic button, and Lantern CCs enough targets as to be able to fulfil the same function. The central difference is mainly that Spellbind also clears status from allies and disarms, whereas Lantern has some amount of damage, and personally I don't think that's really enough to justify two flavors of the same core CC effect. Considering how the two abilities are both notoriously underused, I'm not sure if it's even worth preserving either iteration, let alone keeping both as they are.
4. With DE giving every Archwing Itzal's Blink, that could simply be implemented for Titania as well, with it automatically benefiting from her passive and creating those same zones of fairy dust. I can agree that more bullet-jump range always feels at least somewhat nice... but is that really worth taking up a passive slot by itself? Surely there's something more interesting that could be done for Titania? If a warframe had 25% increased reload speed at all times or the like, that'd probably feel nice too, but in the end it's just a power boost, not something that necessarily carries any uniquely interesting gameplay.

4 minutes ago, Gaxxian said:

If a frame completely depends from 1 continuous effect ability, changing it to several abilities with several durations isnt a solution... just to the contrary, you will just kill that frame.

Instead of killing the only one good ability from that frame, you just need to make the others abilities attractive from other gameplay approaches.

For example: give Titania an aoe ability where during X seconds, razorflies appear to attack enemies and heal allies. That will promote different builds and styles (instead of destroying the existent ones).

But Titania's survivability is already split between multiple effects, I'm instead proposing to put her durability in a single place, effectively fulfilling what you are asking here already. I don't see how making each ability fulfil a different function would harm, let alone kill a frame, particularly when Titania is infamous for being a one-button-wonder thanks to her 4 essentially doing everything her kit provides, besides CC. I fully agree that Titania's other abilities need to be desirable, but in order for that to happen they cannot offer effects that are redundant relative to other, stronger or cheaper abilities in that same kit.

[Gaxxian]

hace 11 minutos, Teridax68 dijo:

But Titania's survivability is already split between multiple effects, I'm instead proposing to put her durability in a single place, effectively fulfilling what you are asking here already. I don't see how making each ability fulfil a different function would harm, let alone kill a frame, particularly when Titania is infamous for being a one-button-wonder thanks to her 4 essentially doing everything her kit provides, besides CC. I fully agree that Titania's other abilities need to be desirable, but in order for that to happen they cannot offer effects that are redundant relative to other, stronger or cheaper abilities in that same kit.

Maybe i didnt understand you.

When you talk about shifting the survivability away from Razorwing and onto another of her abilities, you arent talking about spliting the survivability offered by Razorwing?

Edited September 4, 2019 by Gaxxian

[Teridax68]

19 minutes ago, Gaxxian said:

Maybe i didnt understand you.

When you talk about shifting the survivability away from Razorwing and onto another of her abilities, you arent talking about spliting the survivability offered by Razorwing?

Not splitting, shifting. Currently, Razorwing offers a continuous 50% evasion, which then also combines with the Dust component to Tribute to give her a 75% overall chance to evade attacks: good, but unreliable, given the random nature of both bonuses. However, if Razorwing gave no evasion at all, but Tribute provided complete untargetability for a duration, provided adequate balancing, both abilities would have their own respective functions, and Titania's survivability would be consolidated onto a single effect.

[Gaxxian]

hace 31 minutos, Teridax68 dijo:

Not splitting, shifting. Currently, Razorwing offers a continuous 50% evasion, which then also combines with the Dust component to Tribute to give her a 75% overall chance to evade attacks: good, but unreliable, given the random nature of both bonuses. However, if Razorwing gave no evasion at all, but Tribute provided complete untargetability for a duration, provided adequate balancing, both abilities would have their own respective functions, and Titania's survivability would be consolidated onto a single effect.

Right now, Razorwing offers survivability from various forms, it gives you a lower profile (thus, effectively reducing enemy accuracy, only useful at lower levels), it gives you evasion, offers decoys (razorflies, only useful on lower-medium levels) and giving you some distance from action (AKA turning your allies into decoys xD). You don't need Dust to survive as is only useful at lower levels (in fact, all bonuses from Tribute are unreliable and plainly bad... just keep shooting with Dex Pixia and you will be better xD).

With your idea, you just are nerfing Razorwing and forcing Titania in using a second ability to survive (thus, you are turning her more power hungry).

Edited September 4, 2019 by Gaxxian

[Teridax68]

10 minutes ago, Gaxxian said:

Right now, Razorwing offers survivability from various forms, it gives you a lower profile (thus, effectively reducing enemy accuracy, only useful at lower levels), it gives you evasion and offers decoys (razorflies). You don't need Dust to survive as is only useful at lower levels (in fact, all bonuses from Tribute are unreliable and plainly bad... just keep shooting with Dex Pixia and you will be better xD).

With your idea, you just are nerfing Razorwing and forcing Titania in using a second ability to survive (thus, you are turning her more power hungry).

Oh no, what's that? Titania would have a reason to use more than a single ability in her kit? How dreadful, we couldn't possibly have that!

[Gaxxian]

Splitting and nerfing her only good ability into several so you can play with buttons and see your energy disappearing in exchange to stay like now with her current kit, its not just dreadful. Its absurd and do nothing to help her.

 

PS: by the way, Dust (like all Tribute buffs) is s**t. Its very different from the 50% evasion. Using Dust isnt like magically turn your 50% evasion into 75%. It just gives a -50% accuracy to enemies... so, if (lets say) enemies need 20 accuracy to hit you, and at high levels enemies have 100 base accuracy, Dust gives you... nothing. Just an energy drain and 1 second lost in casting time. Keep shooting with Dex Pixia and you will be better.

Edited September 4, 2019 by Gaxxian
misprint

[Teridax68]

32 minutes ago, Gaxxian said:

Splitting and nerfing her only good ability into several so you can play with buttons and see your energy disappearing in exchange to stay like now with her current kit, its not just dreadful. Its absurd and do nothing to help her.

What is absurd is the mentality you are applying to this discussion, as if using more than a single ability was inherently bad purely because it would require consuming Energy on more things. By that same logic, every warframe should just have a single ability that does everything in their kit, because if they had to use more than just one button, that'd nerf that one mega-ability and be bad for their Energy economy (at a day and age where Energy consumption is trivial, no less). While we're at it, let's also remove Energy costs, and make those abilities always-on too, because otherwise they'd be more power hungry.

This also ignores how you did not even attempt to make an effort to understand the change I was proposing, or how it would actually affect Titania: total untargetability means Titania would no longer need another source of survivability to avoid incoming damage, which means she'd no longer have to rely on an unreliable and dysfunctional system of hit absorption that could instead be used for offense (i.e. Razorflies), nor would she depend on a personal size reduction that does nothing against hitscan attacks. If Titania were to run too quickly out of Energy just because she'd be using two abilities instead of one, then give her more base Energy or reduce the costs of her abilities, but mechanically, going from unreliable to reliable damage mitigation would be a buff to Titania, and allow Razorwing to fulfil a properly offensive function while Tribute would provide the necessary utility.

32 minutes ago, Gaxxian said:

PS: by the way, Dust (like all Tribute buffs) is s**t. Its very different from the 50% evasion. Using Dust isnt like magically turn your 50% evasion into 75%. It just gives a -50% accuracy to enemies... so, if (lets say) enemies need 20 accuracy to hit you, and at high levels enemies have 100 base accuracy, Dust gives you... nothing. Just an energy drain and 1 second lost in casting time. Keep shooting with Dex Pixia and you will be better.

Enemy accuracy does not scale with level, just their damage. And I am well aware that Dust is bad, which is why I am proposing to overhaul it. You seem to be under the impression that a bad ability should simply be ignored and left for dead on a kit, but I'm of the opinion that every ability in a warframe's kit needs to have something that makes it worth using alongside the rest. Do you not believe it would perhaps be a better idea to make Tribute good, for a change?

[Gaxxian]

Your mentality is further nerf Titania so just magically everyone will use her. Yeah, great idea.

Oh! Chroma Spectral Scream is pretty bad and nobody uses... But everybody uses Vex armor! Why the same ability increases defense and offense??? So lets move the Vex armor offense into another new ability and remove Spectral Scream... WOW! Now all Chroma players will use his 1!!! Genius level, everybody will love me!

No, sorry, thats not how it works. Nerfing an ability so you just can fill "ability" sockets its not the solution.

Further, you are just removing abilities for the sake of doing it. If u split Razorwing into 2, 3 o 4 abilities. Even 5, lets include the pasive! Then what? Titania will be the same one trick pony, she just will need to press more buttons to do it!! You didnt change anything! Well, yes, you just worsened the Titania experience and wasted 3 good oportunities to do new and special abilities that requires different builds or add something to the frame. Thanks.

Edited September 4, 2019 by Gaxxian

[Teridax68]

2 hours ago, Gaxxian said:

Your mentality is further nerf Titania so just magically everyone will use her. Yeah, great idea.

... but how exactly am I nerfing her, though? I'm proposing to give her full untargetability, which would be significantly better than her current 50% dodge chance, or the reduction in enemy accuracy as you said. I would also in the process make Tribute genuinely desirable to use. How is any of that a bad thing?

Quote

Oh! Chroma Spectral Scream is pretty bad and nobody uses... But everybody uses Vex armor! Why the same ability increases defense and offense??? So lets move the Vex armor offense into another new ability and remove Spectral Scream... WOW! Now all Chroma players will use his 1!!! Genius level, everybody will love me!

If the bonuses are made stronger... why not? Would it not be better to have four useful, powerful abilities, as opposed to just a single usable one? It's not like there's this law saying the resulting abilities cannot be made individually rebalanced, either.

Quote

No, sorry, thats not how it works. Nerfing an ability so you just can fill "ability" sockets its not the solution.

Except it's been done before already, and to great success: Nezha's Warding Halo got changed from an invincibility-inducing health buffer to mere damage reduction on a reserve, just so that he could synergize better with Blazing Chakram's orb drops, and guess what? He's more popular than he ever was before, in large part because his kit feels much more coherent now. Oh, and by the way, before his rework went live, people complained it would be a nerf as well, because people have a tendency to act like experts on things they know nothing about, especially balance on a video game forum. See how many people are complaining about Nezha now...

Quote

Further, you are just removing abilities for the sake of doing it. If u split Razorwing into 2, 3 o 4 abilities. Even 5, lets include the pasive! Then what? Titania will be the same one trick pony, she just will need to press more buttons to do it!! You didnt change anything! Well, yes, you just worsened the Titania experience and wasted 3 good oportunities to do new and special abilities that requires different builds or add something to the frame. Thanks.

I don't think you actually understand why Titania is called a "one-trick pony": she is called such because her one trick is her 4, an overloaded ability that supplies her with practically all of the damage and survivability in her kit. Meanwhile, the CC and utility at her disposal is mediocre at best. Letting her give allies complete untargetability via Tribute, a point about my suggestion you conveniently forgot in your little vendetta here, would give her significantly better utility in addition to personal survivability, and updating her CC to actually be worth using would, well, make it worth using. She would cease to be a one-trick pony, and wouldn't be so dependent on her 4 exclusively to do her job. In the meantime, what "new and special abilities" are you even proposing, may I ask?

Edited September 4, 2019 by Teridax68

[selig_fay]

I didn't understand what the OP was writing. If he wants to tweak razorwing by making it a simple archwing mode-I'm all for it. (of course, if ability to get rid of constant leaks energy.) But that ton of text looks like you don't want to change razorwing, just bury it. I said and will repeat: archwing mode - her unique mechanics. If you don't like archwing - go for another frame. If you want to play in two forms-offer a system that would diversify the gameplay (2 forms are 7 different abilities). Her first three abilities are bad and that's not a razorwing problem, because razorwing isn't the best ability in the game and has a lot of flaws that other frames don't have.

[(PSN)PanserKunst]

During a Dev Stream I had suggested that Titania's first 3 abilities be consolidated into one ability, and that the remaining two abilities take on offensive and a defensive roles, altering the actual environment  to: restrain / life-suck / razor- fly assault / slow / damage absorption barrier / reduce accuracy etc. Visually represented by roots, thorns, strangle weeds and so on. Given the nature of Titania's background story, a vengeful forest or plant growth seems somehow appropriate. Titania's first three abilities seem so close in function and visual that she becomes uninteresting, even confusing. (Especially to other players.). Razorwing while fun in the short-term, it loses its appeal after a couple of days. Hell, she has effectively become my "Blow me" exception to Sortie "this-weapon-class-only-missions". In a nutshell she needs to be much more diversified.

Edited September 4, 2019 by (PS4)PanserKunst
Bad grammar.

[Koekr]

10 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

 

1. I do agree that, in isolation, Exalted weapons are fine. I also have no intention of taking away their uniqueness, if by uniqueness we are talking about their unique mechanics, e.g. Exalted Blade's light waves as you mentioned. However, I do not believe that this uniqueness can only be obtained via making the weapon an ability as well: if Exalted Blade were simply an innate weapon with no energy cost, light waves, but then some tradeoff in attack speed or the like, it would still likely be fine (in fact, it may not even need much of a tradeoff at all, as decoupling it from ability form would remove the Power Strength scaling and bring it in line with other weapons). Overall, this would give the affected frames more options, as they'd still have their weapons, or weapon-like abilities, on top of an extra "real" ability.
   • Sub-point here, but a lot of Exalted weapons are not actually that unique, and deserve to be made unique regardless of whether or not they get moved: Wukong's Iron Staff is just a regular staff with big stats, for example, and Hildryn's Balefire launcher is just a standard launcher that doesn't really interact with the rest of her kit. Even Valkyr's claws are just standard claws attached to an invincibility toggle, which does not need to be restricted to a single weapon to work (and the fact that it's attached to her claws specifically is what's messing her up right now post-Melee 2.9). Garuda is thus not the only frame with a boring weapon exclusive to her, and her own talons deserve to be made more unique as well.
2. I feel that balancing weapon-like abilities to have a place is inevitably going to entail making them less weapon-like: if, for example, you want to make Fireball instead provide utility by stripping an opponent's armor, that'll make the ability a utility tool, rather than a weapon, which I agree would be fine because it would change its function (or, rather, give it a function when it currently has none). Giving them both damage and either CC or utility, however, runs the risk of having the ability make weapons themselves redundant, since at that point the ability would do everything a weapon could and more. At that stage, the only way to differentiate the two would be to change how one uses the ability, because if all you're doing is pointing at a target and clicking to shoot stuff at them, you've basically got a weapon-plus ability right there.
3. I'd say the difference is debatable, as Spellbind's cast delay makes it especially poorly-suited for a panic button, and Lantern CCs enough targets as to be able to fulfil the same function. The central difference is mainly that Spellbind also clears status from allies and disarms, whereas Lantern has some amount of damage, and personally I don't think that's really enough to justify two flavors of the same core CC effect. Considering how the two abilities are both notoriously underused, I'm not sure if it's even worth preserving either iteration, let alone keeping both as they are.
4. With DE giving every Archwing Itzal's Blink, that could simply be implemented for Titania as well, with it automatically benefiting from her passive and creating those same zones of fairy dust. I can agree that more bullet-jump range always feels at least somewhat nice... but is that really worth taking up a passive slot by itself? Surely there's something more interesting that could be done for Titania? If a warframe had 25% increased reload speed at all times or the like, that'd probably feel nice too, but in the end it's just a power boost, not something that necessarily carries any uniquely interesting gameplay.

1. Seems as if you just don't enjoy exalted weapons. That's fine, but what you are suggesting would absolutely ruin them for those of us who enjoy them. You're also wrong about Valkyr's claws being standard claws, their stance is shared by zero other melee weapons, and they're one of the highest damage weapons in the game. I enjoy exalted weapons, and my only problem with them is when they're not weird and costly enough.
2. Yes, I am saying weapon-like abilities should be more weird. They cost energy, while standard weapons don't, so they should compete with standard weapons, seeing as they can't be used continuously. They probably could last continuously, but that should be limited to weird builds.
3. Spellbind has a 1 second cast time while lantern has a 1.3 second cast time, both affected by cast-time-reducing mods. In addition, spellbind can affect multiple units immediately upon cast finish, while lantern can only affect one unit immediately, and then it slowly starts to grab the attention of nearby enemies who then walk towards the lantern. Their CC, at their core, just doesn't work the same way. An amalgamation of these two abilities would be a whole different beast.
4. Her passive should be built upon, not scrapped and redone entirely, because bullet-jump distance is kind of nice but not enough to carry a passive. I'm not sure whether you're agreeing with me, but I'm being clear about what I think just in case.

[Teridax68]

7 hours ago, Koekr said:

1. Seems as if you just don't enjoy exalted weapons. That's fine, but what you are suggesting would absolutely ruin them for those of us who enjoy them.

Why? I also don't dislike Exalted weapons at all, I just think it's wasteful to dedicate an ability slot to literal weapon gameplay (particularly when the weapon in question offers no truly new gameplay of its own), when abilities have the potential to provide something completely different. My proposal would also allow frames to have their Exalted weapons and an extra ability to play with, and using said weapon wouldn't cost Energy, so how exactly would that "absolutely ruin them" for you?

7 hours ago, Koekr said:

You're also wrong about Valkyr's claws being standard claws, their stance is shared by zero other melee weapons, and they're one of the highest damage weapons in the game.

They're one of the highest damage weapons in the game... and are constrained to single target, which makes for a dubious accolade. They have a unique stance, but ultimately that stance does not play very differently from other claws, to the point where they inexplicably have autoblock in spite of the fact that Valkyr is literally invulnerable, and thus has no need to block ever during Hysteria.

7 hours ago, Koekr said:

I enjoy exalted weapons, and my only problem with them is when they're not weird and costly enough.

Sure, and I do too, even the boring ones. I think it's satisfying to smack people around with the Iron Staff, and I think Hildryn's Balefire Launcher looks and sounds cool. The Exalted Blade is one of my favorite weapons, and its ability to slice through crowds of enemies provides some incredibly satisfying gameplay to me. I'm not asking to get rid of those weapons, and in fact my suggestion is to let the player use them all the time, at no cost, as a proper weapon, and give the frames affected an extra ability to play with. In the hypothetical case that someone does dislike Exalted weapons, they could just equip a regular weapon instead, whereas everyone else would strictly benefit in terms of gameplay and thematic options, as they'd have that same, frame-exclusive weapon on top of four abilities and a passive.

7 hours ago, Koekr said:

2. Yes, I am saying weapon-like abilities should be more weird. They cost energy, while standard weapons don't, so they should compete with standard weapons, seeing as they can't be used continuously. They probably could last continuously, but that should be limited to weird builds.

I can sympathize with wanting to make weapon-like abilities stronger because of their Energy cost, but the fact of the matter is that Energy costs are largely trivial in the current state of the game, which is precisely why many nuke abilities, balanced along your exact rationale of justifying their cost with extreme power, dominate the metagame through their spam. My whole point here is that abilities and weapons shouldn't "compete" at all to begin with, they should complement each other and do things the other can't. In the case of damaging abilities, this means they should probably damage enemies in ways that can't be done in the same way by a weapon: Bladestorm attacking lots of enemies at once after marking them is obviously distinct from a regular weapon, as are Saryn's Spores with their method of damage and propagation, but then Chroma's Spectral Scream is just a really crappy, more restrictive flamethrower. 

7 hours ago, Koekr said:

3. Spellbind has a 1 second cast time while lantern has a 1.3 second cast time, both affected by cast-time-reducing mods. In addition, spellbind can affect multiple units immediately upon cast finish, while lantern can only affect one unit immediately, and then it slowly starts to grab the attention of nearby enemies who then walk towards the lantern. Their CC, at their core, just doesn't work the same way.

Lantern's CC affects all enemy in range, and what you're telling me is simply that both abilities are especially poorly-suited as panic buttons. Both abilities may be differentiated by the different inconveniences attached to their CC, but the fact remains that neither are satisfying CC abilities, yet still accomplish the same fundamental function of disabling targets.

7 hours ago, Koekr said:

An amalgamation of these two abilities would be a whole different beast.

Where did I ever suggest combining the two abilities? On the contrary, I pointed out in several instances that neither currently justifies its usage much, because the CC they offer is often more of an inconvenience than a help. I'd much rather find much more creative ways of disabling enemies, e.g. shrinking them to reduce their health/damage and have us step on them to squish them, slowing enemies while magnifying their head size, etc., than keep two dysfunctional and unpopular CC effects on a long-suffering warframe for whichever unspecified reason you had in mind.

7 hours ago, Koekr said:

You're also wrong about Valkyr's claws being standard claws, their stance is shared by zero other melee weapons, and they're one of the highest damage weapons in the game.

If something is not enough to carry a passive... why should it be a passive to begin with? I'm fine with developing upon Titania's passive to make it more unique and appreciable, but I still don't understand why you're so interested in preserving a passive that is completely uninspired, in addition to not working well with her current kit. In other words, I think having Titania's passive remain related to bullet-jumping is fine, but I don't see why it's necessary.

[selig_fay]

@Teridax68 Using conventional weapons, you waste ammo (except battery mechanics). It is the same with the exalted weapon. If you want to make mechanics like Ivara's bow-this will be the best solution. But getting rid of energy costs is impossible in the case of sublime weapons, it should not be used all the time.

[Teridax68]

1 minute ago, zhellon said:

@Teridax68 Using conventional weapons, you waste ammo (except battery mechanics). It is the same with the exalted weapon. If you want to make mechanics like Ivara's bow-this will be the best solution. But getting rid of energy costs is impossible in the case of sublime weapons, it should not be used all the time.

Melee weapons don't consume ammo, and as you pointed out, many conventional weapons don't even have ammo problems. If there really is an issue with the Balefire Launcher, Artemis Bow, Dex Pixia, etc. not consuming ammo... why not just give them ammo? Problem solved.

And I can agree that Exalted weapons need not be used all the time... just as much as any weapon, which is why I think most if not all of them should be made into weapon options for their respective frames. The problem with these weapons is that, particularly in the game's current state of Energy management, they can in fact be used all the time, because Energy isn't really a meaningful resource constraint anymore, and when that happens, there's at least one equipped weapon that ceases to be used as a result. The OP talks about redundant abilities, and Exalted weapons force redundancy by making either a weapon or the ability itself redundant, dependent on relative differences in power.

[Koekr]

1 hour ago, Teridax68 said:

...

Alright, I think this conversation is going in an obvious direction. Simply put, your suggestions need more thought. You are decent at assessing problems within the game, but your suggestions just lack perspective and consideration. Our suggestions sound good to us at the time, and we might still like our suggestions later, but I am being as constructively critical as I can when I say your suggestions need to consider why and how the mechanics currently work the way they do and why some people enjoy them, not to assume they have no value and must be entirely replaced.

I especially dislike how you're deliberately refusing to understand the differences between spellbind and lantern, because while you seem to get that there are a few differences, you don't think they're 'big enough' differences. My practical experience with these abilities runs directly counter to what you're saying about them, and therefore I have to wonder if you're discussing in bad faith.

[Teridax68]

2 minutes ago, Koekr said:

Alright, I think this conversation is going in an obvious direction. Simply put, your suggestions need more thought. You are decent at assessing problems within the game, but your suggestions just lack perspective and consideration. Our suggestions sound good to us at the time, and we might still like our suggestions later, but I am being as constructively critical as I can when I say your suggestions need to consider why and how the mechanics currently work the way they do and why some people enjoy them, not to assume they have no value and must be entirely replaced.

This sounds like projection, considering my posts are in response to your own thread and suggestions, and how I have in fact asked you several times now to justify your own design decisions (which you have refused to do), all while justifying my own rationale. Tell me: why are you so attached to Titania's passive? Why do you want to keep her current abilities intact, in spite of the fact that three out of her four abilities are notoriously underused, and that you're nonetheless proposing changes to the frame? Do you want Titania to change, or do you not? By contrast, I pointed out the problems with her CC, the issues with her passive, and the overall reasons why her kit outside of her 4 is hardly ever used, and while I didn't really suggest any specific replacements, outside of some quick spitballing, I nonetheless did justify the outline of overhauling the abilities that have fundamentally poor mechanics, right from the first post I made here.

2 minutes ago, Koekr said:

I especially dislike how you're deliberately refusing to understand the differences between spellbind and lantern, because while you seem to get that there are a few differences, you don't think they're 'big enough' differences. My practical experience with these abilities runs directly counter to what you're saying about them, and therefore I have to wonder if you're discussing in bad faith.

The fact that you are arguing exclusively from anecdotal evidence, against obvious facts pointed out to you, and are apparently incapable of understanding that your personal opinion does not equate to reality, suggests you may in fact be the one arguing in bad faith here. If you truly believe Titania's abilities are fine, why are you even proposing to change her? I'm not the only one on these forums to point out the redundancy in her CC, and it is slightly humorous that, in a thread you posted to discuss both ability redundancy and Titania, you've failed to put two and two together. At this stage, I don't even know what you want for Titania: do you want her kit to change, or do you want it to stay the same? What exactly is it about Titania that you think is bad, and how are you proposing to fix that?