Choosing a DPS frame - Mesa vs Saryn

[sinnae]

5 hours ago, stormy505 said:

the terms are pretty loose. Chroma nukes profit taker. Saryn has high DPS. You could go either way with the terms.

DPS just means damage-dealer. It's short for damage-per-second. Nuke frames are DPS frames. Boss-killers are DPS frames. DPS frames are a contrast to CC frames (crowd control). Mesa and Saryn are DPS frames.

Nuke means to wipe out the entire map. It's short for nuclear, like a nuclear bomb. Mesa nukes, Saryn nukes in low-level missions.

I'd say the terms are pretty clearly defined, they are used in other games like FPS/MMORPGs.

[sinnae]

5 hours ago, EL3kTr1C said:

As I said, I'm not familiar with how the spore spreads and thought she has to recast her 1 but I've got that cleared up now so no worries there. 

What you say about power strength is interesting because it gives her 1 upto a 100% chance of a corrosive proc, plus it affects the damage bonus from her 3. Most builds I found also seem to recommend at least 200% power strength, so sacrificing it seems like you're losing out on damage but maybe I'm missing something here. Does she have different builds to play around her different abilities? 

Let's say your spore has high power strength and can kill its first target in 2 seconds. That means your spores have only 2 seconds to spread before your damage stacks start to decay and you go back to zero. That means you need to recast your spore and rebuild your stacks before they've gone very far. You'll find that your spores have no longevity and feel like they die off frequently.

Now let's say your spore has lower power strength and it takes 10 seconds to kill its first target. That spore has 5x longer before it kills its original host to do its stuff, which means your spore has had 5x more time to spread to additional hosts before getting up to the damage threshold that will kill its host.

In other words if your TTK (time to kill) is too quick you are sabotaging yourself by not letting your spores spread.

Add range + duration to a low power strength build and you will have a very persistent disease that spreads to all corners of the map and is very difficult to kill off completely.

 

Edited September 5, 2019 by sinnae

[Rakosta_Kai]

Saryn does very widespread aoe with varying amounts of time spent.

Mesa does conal aoe with high dps

Personally, I would say to continue with your plan to Farm Saryn P. and opt to buy Mesa P now...Mesa prise will only go up over time until her next unvaulting and You'll  make the money back over time regardless (you'll likely make some of the money for Mesa back through farming Saryn) and both of the models are nifty improvements over the originals.

[AdunSaveMe]

5 hours ago, (XB1)UndeadGalaxyWar said:

Face tanking toxic lash ftw ... my fav build for her 😍

I don't use it often cus I'm a metaslave, but it's pretty fun.

[EL3kTr1C]

45 minutes ago, sinnae said:

Let's say your spore has high power strength and can kill its first target in 2 seconds. That means your spores have only 2 seconds to spread before your damage stacks start to decay and you go back to zero. That means you need to recast your spore and rebuild your stacks before they've gone very far. You'll find that your spores have no longevity and feel like they die off frequently.

Now let's say your spore has lower power strength and it takes 10 seconds to kill its first target. That spore has 5x longer before it kills its original host to do its stuff, which means your spore has had 5x more time to spread to additional hosts before getting up to the damage threshold that will kill its host.

In other words if your TTK (time to kill) is too quick you are sabotaging yourself by not letting your spores spread.

Add range + duration to a low power strength build and you will have a very persistent disease that spreads to all corners of the map and is very difficult to kill off completely.

 

That explains it pretty well. I was only curious because in all the reddit threads and youtube videos I've seen, literally not a single person has recommended anything other than 200% str for the guaranteed corrosive procs, but what you're saying makes sense as well. Guess I'll have to try it out myself. 

Also, the other thing I was hoping someone would address is her build variations. Is she one of those frames that has to utilize all of her abilities to be useful (like Harrow for eg.) or can she be built around certain abilities? Spore+miasma is what I see most people talk about, though I've seen people within this thread mention tankier builds focusing on toxic lash and I'm curious how that would work considering my strong preference of tank/durable frames. 

[EL3kTr1C]

8 minutes ago, AdunSaveMe said:

I don't use it often cus I'm a metaslave, but it's pretty fun.

5 hours ago, (XB1)UndeadGalaxyWar said:

Face tanking toxic lash ftw ... my fav build for her 😍

Anyone care to explain what exactly this facetanking toxic lash build is? As an Inaros main with a CO-focused orthos prime, I think this might make it easier for me to understand Saryn instead of the spore/miasma shenanigans. 

Edited September 5, 2019 by EL3kTr1C

[AdunSaveMe]

5 minutes ago, EL3kTr1C said:

Anyone care to explain what exactly this facetanking toxic lash build is? As an Inaros main with a CO-focused orthos prime, I think this might make it easier for me to understand Saryn instead of the spore/miasma shenanigans. 

You build for survivability and Toxin Lash, so you can sacrifice range and efficiency since you're not going for map-wide spore nuking, and go with strength and duration. Chuck on armour and health and Regenerative Molt and you're set. It works with guns, but melee is cooler and gets double damage from Toxic Lash.

In essence, it's just a melee buff build. But it's a really cool one. Just slap on Toxic Lash and go wild. Throw in Spores if you're fancy.

Edited September 5, 2019 by AdunSaveMe

[(PSN)Eluminary]

Really the biggest thing that differentiates them to me is saryn can spread spores and miasma through walls and mesa can't shoot through walls.    If your in a wide open area without many obstructions  mesa will be the better choice .  If your in a more closed in area with small halls and tunnels saryn will be better, in most cases.

 

Example Its hard to beat a well built and played  mesa in PoE or orb Vallis.  Wide open spaces allow few places for enemies to hide from Mesa's peace maker.  Many(not all) defense maps will favor mesa over saryn as well but here the differences lesser.  Saryn  is one of the best in onslaught missions, many of the random maps here are small and can be  spread of several rooms or heights she shines with this since her spores will spread omni directional through walls floors and ceilings where mesa has to  move around alot more clearing 1 area at a time.

 

Edited September 5, 2019 by (PS4)Eluminary

[bibmobello]

1 hour ago, sinnae said:

DPS just means damage-dealer. It's short for damage-per-second. Nuke frames are DPS frames. Boss-killers are DPS frames. DPS frames are a contrast to CC frames (crowd control). Mesa and Saryn are DPS frames.

Nuke means to wipe out the entire map. It's short for nuclear, like a nuclear bomb. Mesa nukes, Saryn nukes in low-level missions.

I'd say the terms are pretty clearly defined, they are used in other games like FPS/MMORPGs.

DPS means damage per second and it's even used for characters with an high offensive potential. Now if saryin or mesa or equinox  are  considered  DPS why can't they kill an eidolon or wolf in a fast way? Yes they can deal larger amount of damage thanks to the AoE but they don't have any benefit to kill a single target.

[sinnae]

Probably because DE intentionally makes bosses immune to abilities so that non-DPS frames can have a chance. But all that does is just make buffer frames (Chroma, Volt and Mirage) the best at killing bosses, because the next best thing to using your absurdly powerful abilities is using an absurdly powerful buff to make your overpowered weapons hit even harder.

[Horaciozhao]

mesa is tanky and her damage ramp up really fast, but she has to have LoS for damage. Saryn is less tanky and her damage needs a bit time to ramp up but she can reach an entire map even things you haven´t seen yet

[FashionFrame]

For Bosses, I'd say neither of them. I honestly haven't tested it myself, but when it comes to a boss with specific weakpoints (Examples: Sargas Ruk,  Lephantis,  Ropalolyst,  Ven'kra Tel/ Sprag, and so on), does the Mesa actually aim for those weakpoints, or just continues to shoot the body, and you just see constant zeros? Because if that's true, yeah for those bosses, Mesa is a no. Though the other bosses that have no weakpoints, yeah Mesa will slaughter them! Though, even with the insane build I have for my Mesa, I still prefer my mirage over her any day when it comes to boss fights and other missions. I think Mesa's top game is in crowded one-rooms like a defense mission, or Sanctuary Onslaught, because she doesn't have to be mobile, quickly aim around in circles, and wipe out whole maps.

Saryn well...yes insanely well for killing mobs, but she's just like mesa. Not the greatest for being mobile if you're using her nuke build. Plus, if you won't want majority of players squads to hate you, don't bring a Saryn to most public missions (Same can honestly be said for Mesa too...). Some people don't like watching everything die because of her, and then they die of boredom hahaha!

Honestly don't know how well a Saryn would do in a boss fight either, but I think there's way better alternatives to fast slaying of bosses than her.

[(XBOX)Phantom Clip]

On 2019-09-04 at 8:49 PM, EL3kTr1C said:

Tbh I've been looking for something to help with boss fights, and not sure which one to get first so yeah. Any other tips on either frame and how they work/how to play them will be appreciated 🙂

Mesa helps with bosses more than Saryn. Mesa has way better survival with her damage reduction and a little extra health when you don't equip melee weapon.  I would use a crit build tombfinger with corrosive damage as most bosses have armor. Mesa waltz is nice because you can roll with peacemakers out and move at a high speed. With efficiency, duration and high enegry and move speed, maybe use amalgam serration, you can have peacemakers up for about 2min at time. Even longer with hunter adrenaline /rage build because you can gain energy while channeling peacemakers. Or use energizing dash but you have to cancel your 4th to gain energy. Maps with alot of halls and rooms are no problem if you roll with with your 4th skill active (waltz needed to roll). My mesa can out kill Saryn on exterminate and similar missions . Plus keep her peacemakers out just about the whole match.

 

Saryn useless against most bosses,  you can't apply her status effect to them but she does have and higher damage buff over mesa. I don't think a frame can out kill a good Saryn on defense type missions or sanctuary until enemies hit like lv 100. You want high duration,  high range like 50m miasma and strength around 85%. Cast spore twice on 1 enemy because they stack then miasma = map wipe. Very powerful. Or cast spore twice then use ignis or staticor or similar to spread spores. Repeat this when your spores drop to like 5 infected. Soon you'll hit like 500-600 damage per spore. You can keep mobs infected and dying just about as soon as they spawn if your timing is good. Your damage will rise effectively with the increase in enemy level. But as enemies deal more damage, you have to jump around more , shed skin and learn to cast and hide . Spamming spore then miasma , you'll need alot of energy. Maybe equip energizing dash. But spore then use weapon to spread spore requires less energy. Toxic lash gas augment now works with kills from abilities, not just melee. I haven't tried it but It should help ramp up damage in higher level missions.

Edited September 6, 2019 by (XB1)Phantom Clip

[(PSN)Silverback73]

On 2019-09-05 at 12:54 AM, EL3kTr1C said:

This definitely helps a lot! 

A couple of things about Saryn though - 

- Most Saryn builds I find run pretty low efficiency. Does she not need energy that much? Tbh I'm not familiar with her spore-spreading mechanic and was assuming she spams her abilities and would require Hunter Adrenaline or something. 

- Speaking of spreading spores, what kind of weapons are good for her? I have an Orthos Prime condition overload  build as my go to melee weapon, and I think it should fit right in with Saryn as she has built in corrosive/viral procs, but I'm not sure what primary(s) synergize with her abilities. 

- Kinda random thought that just came to my head, but how does Mirage compare to these two? I've heard she's a pretty good  DPS frame too. 

Saryn greatly benefits from other AoE frames who can pop spores on infected targets.

For example, my ranged, capacitance-Augment Discharge Volt Prime can be a Saryn’s best friend.

I lock down a map with stun, pop spores without initially outright killing infected targets, and give her overshields.

Her spore damage quickly ramps towards 2K.  Think of it as doing what Miasma does over 4-8 seconds instead of 1-2, which benefits spores.

As for boss killing?

I’d start a separate thread.

[Lunarez]

I use both of them, in different kind of missions

Mesa mostly on Boss killing, Disruption, Bounties, and extermination sorties with elemental resistance/enhancement. Her deals are her abilities to both kill crowds and single target damage with really high range. This makes her shine in any missions that revolve around killing 1 strong target (like disruption), or missions with few enemies that tends to spread out (bounties). Her damage type is also mod-able which gives her a more versatility. However, while many people says Mesa is tanky with Shatter Shield, you're a lot more subject to getting one-shotted by AoE and melee enemies like Bombard and Napalm. And she doesn't have reliable CC to work with without the use of her augments.

Saryn on the other hand is really good at massacre enemies in tight room or most star chart missions in general due to how cluster most enemies are and her abilities can hit things behind walls. I mostly use her in ESO, exterminate, extermination sorties that doesn't have elemental resistance on. Also, Saryn has a more consistency in her survivality than Mesa. Yes, she doesn't have damage reduction, but her base armor is very high (which better since you don't have to be vary as much on AoE and melee mobs) and she has CC and Molt clone to take things off her back.

Edited September 6, 2019 by Lunarez

[MacKerris]

Saryn..
Really it will be which frame do you want to to use for any given mission. For myself Saryn is one of my favorite frames, while Mesa is not. I find that I use all of her kit and that it works well together. However I don't use her on a large part of the map because other frames may be more useful or fun.

 

[(XBOX)Hyperion Rexx]

With the spores augment now giving 100% corrosive damage to team mates, a spores/toxic lash build in conjunction with a condition overload melee may become her best build.  

It would need 3 augments to work at high lvls cos you'd need regenerative moult in there too but with adaptation, some strength and duration it could probably get quite silly.  I'm working on a build at the moment.  Problem is, there's so many viable ways to build saryn I may need a second frame! 

[White_Matter]

Saryn can run both as an AOE nuker or a solo survivability/contained dps frame. 

People usually run her as the former, because it is the easiest and the most OP variant, especially for EOS. I prefer to run her with some stats,duration and molt augment.

 

Mesa is boring as hell and definitely alot less versatile. So make your pick based off of that.

[sinnae]

Regenerative Molt is very weak, basically useless, at higher levels compared to operator arcanes that can heal for 1/5 of your health every second. Definitely safe to use that mod slot on something actually needed.

[(PSN)CrazyBeaTzu]

On 2019-09-04 at 9:40 PM, HumanitysLastBreath said:

If I'm understanding what you're saying correctly, you're incorrect as I'm on PC and definitely just hold down left click and it automatically fires at everything on my screen until it's dead.

Yea i tried it out, on ps4 I have to rapidly press the trigger lol. That's actually lame and takes away from the smoothness of it. Saryn it is.

[Methanoid]

1 kills everything in sight, 1 kills trash mobs in sight and even not in sight.

[Morticoccus]

I gotta make a second and third build for low power and high duration, and solo lash.

I just hope that I can make it work with my current formas...