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Autongnosis

Gauss is a design trainwreck - absolute intrakit dependency, ridiculously arbitrary limitations, not a shred of team utility of any kind

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I gotta agree and some more points too.

Kinetic plating is terrible because the battery normally cant go over 100% so you are dependant on 2 skills to get a meaningful defense buff in a game where there are more than IPS, fire, cold and blast damage enemies.

Thermal Sunder is nothing but a cc spam skill, you must spam it because otherwise its useless. Over lv 30 the damage is almost non-existant and the only saving grace is the dependancy on redline for freezing enemies. 

Redline dependancy is terrible, its not a nice buff but a must use skill because without it your other skills are useless.

 

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On 2019-09-07 at 12:35 PM, Libpea said:

Have u been using his 2nd skill? I liked him at first, until i ran some high lvl missions and realize his synergy is broken, so he will be on the shelf very soon for me.
His 2nd gives resistance to stagger and knocked back, and 100% reduced damage when meter is full (why 100%, no need for 100%), and with his 2nd active, the meter will go down when u take damage from enemy. I didnt notice this with enemy below lvl 40 until  I ran into lvl 60+

His 2nd skill only gives 100% reduced damage when you use redline. Normal mode is capping the battery at 80% charge, you are dependant on using his 4th if you want that actual 100% reduced damage and his 4th must also be on 100% to make sure this ability stays on and does not drain but even then a stray bullet from a nullfier will obliterate you.

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18 hours ago, Benour said:

Top Tier tank

In the meantime Mesa just stands in the corner with easy access 95% DR along with Harrow who can cast teamwide immortality for fun.

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Just now, Fallen_Echo said:

In the meantime Mesa just stands in the corner with easy access 95% DR along with Harrow who can cast teamwide immortality for fun.

Go to simulacrum spawn 3x 165 CHG and watch that uber tanky mesa melt like a butter. And harrow is complete joke as tank. 👍

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Il y a 14 heures, WoodedSkate89 a dit :

I love this 

ibeSo2q.gif

I'm guessing someone was particularly butthurt by the topic 😄

il y a 10 minutes, Fallen_Echo a dit :

[...] but even then a stray bullet from a nullfier will obliterate you.

Just a pointer here (cause i agree with the rest), the Lanka used by nullifiers does Puncture, not electricity. 

That said any shock/toxic eximus in the area will ruin your day. 

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il y a 7 minutes, Benour a dit :

Go to simulacrum spawn 3x 165 CHG and watch that uber tanky mesa melt like a butter. And harrow is complete joke as tank. 👍

Harrow is a bad ish tank but can manage on sub 200 content without an healer spectre. 

 

The fact you think mesa will melt against 3 enemies, regardless of the enemy type, shows how little you know about Mesa. 

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1 minute ago, Autongnosis said:

Harrow is a bad ish tank but can manage on sub 200 content without an healer spectre. 

 

The fact you think mesa will melt against 3 enemies, regardless of the enemy type, shows how little you know about Mesa. 

Yeah i have just like 200k kills on my mesa and have built 2x mesa one for normal gameplay and one for umbral/adaptation/QT/HA/Pflow tank build with Guardian/Grace, and yes shes decent tank (until you get hit by melee 4Head) but nothing SO special also shes useless for Distruption. And Distruption is mah life now!

Gauss can tank whole room of 165lvl CHG or Corpus Tech and never die. And he doesnt care about melee attacks too. Anyway this offtopic.

Tldr Gauss is awesome. 😁

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29 minutes ago, Benour said:

Go to simulacrum spawn 3x 165 CHG and watch that uber tanky mesa melt like a butter. And harrow is complete joke as tank. 👍

Ohh yeah because gauss who just flat out dies when a nullfier aims in his general direction is such a good tank.

The thing is his tankyness only works if you charged the battery to 100% and reached 100% state with redline, meaning you need atleast 2 skillcasts and stay constantly unhit to reach that point.

Mesa can just go and cast her shooting gallery to make all those CHG's stop shooting and you seem to forget that she can actually deal with them unlike Gauss, harrow can freeze them in spot then move them down and once they start moving again he can cast teamwide immortality what awards hefty crit boost.

 

28 minutes ago, Autongnosis said:

Just a pointer here (cause i agree with the rest), the Lanka used by nullifiers does Puncture, not electricity. 

Wait a bit, the last time i tested it with adaption i got electricity resistance. Did they changed it sometime?

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6 minutes ago, Fallen_Echo said:

Ohh yeah because gauss who just flat out dies when a nullfier aims in his general direction is such a good tank.

The thing is his tankyness only works if you charged the battery to 100% and reached 100% state with redline, meaning you need atleast 2 skillcasts and stay constantly unhit to reach that point.

Mesa can just go and cast her shooting gallery to make all those CHG's stop shooting and you seem to forget that she can actually deal with them unlike Gauss, harrow can freeze them in spot then move them down and once they start moving again he can cast teamwide immortality what awards hefty crit boost.

 

Wait a bit, the last time i tested it with adaption i got electricity resistance. Did they changed it sometime?

Yeah i could say same about mesa being hit in the face by melee and die instantly. Also no frame in the game is going to facetank lvl 300+ Nulli shot (well gauss might it seems and Revenant). Sooo yeah... Also Gauss tankiness comes from energy gain per dmg/hit and QT not the actual DR from battery charge, you should run adaptation on Gauss anyway, The DR from battery lvl is just cherry on the cake. Do you even Gauss brah?

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Le 07/09/2019 à 17:35, Loza03 a dit :

That might just be a change in design philosophy. Hildryn also has a similar setup, Wukong needs more upkeep for his defence after his rework and Wisp's invisibility also requires a lot more effort to maintain compared to frames like Loki or Octavia. Even Railjacks can't use all their abilities and weapons at the same time, from what we've seen.

DE seems to be trying to move away from powers and frames that can just 'do' things without really needing to input to do so. In the same vein, Gauss can't just 'have' big defence and offense buffs. Does this make him 'worse' than say, Rhino or Chroma? Probably, yes. Is it a more healthy setup for the game going forward? IMO, yes. We've all heard the declarations of 'content drought' and 'the game's too easy' and 'no endgame' - the current way doesn't seem to be working all that well. A new direction for designing frames and content may be what's required to fix that.

I'm all for frames that make you work for a result. 

Gauss is literally the opposite of that. It simply forces you into a brutally spammy gameplay to just work. It's not "this is a good frame but if you do a number of comboes he does incredible", it's "this is a bad frame that only works if you spam your 1 over and over". 

 

That's what i meant when i said dependency is not sinergy. You know what has sinergy? Trinity. Trinity has sone creative power uses, some were patched out (link nuke and 1-2 cannon), some weren't and are still incredibly effective. Like link posts. Link works on its own perfectly well, but by combining it with Well Of Life it also gains a guaranteed linked target and gives hp regen passively. 

 

Tbh i would love the frame if it actually made it possible to work for the buffs instead of shoehorning you into constantly spamming 1 and 3 for no good reason, to the point of obnoxiousness. Most of my complaints would solve themselves if they integrated battery buildup into his kit and gameplay regardless of redline, and then made redline be more about its own buffs than about making the rest of his kit worth using. 

Edited by Autongnosis
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il y a une heure, Benour a dit :

Yeah i have just like 200k kills on my mesa and have built 2x mesa one for normal gameplay and one for umbral/adaptation/QT/HA/Pflow tank build with Guardian/Grace, and yes shes decent tank (until you get hit by melee 4Head) but nothing SO special also shes useless for Distruption. And Distruption is mah life now! 

You are crazy man. I don't even want to fact check those 200k kills, but calling mesa a not so special tank is the epitome of stupid tbh. You are seriously considering a 125k ehp frame with passive hard CC, one long duration but shirt ranged and the other short duration but with infinite range, all of this before adaptation, a not so special tank. 

Spawn that room full of lv 165 CHGs and show me how you manage to die cause i just can't. 

 

On the topic of disruption, all frames are mostly useless there. Only non melee self buffers have any amount of value. Otherwise the frame is entirely irrelevant, you just use lockdown plus temporal blast to stun the demo endlessly and any CO spooler with a redeemer prime. 

il y a une heure, Fallen_Echo a dit :

Wait a bit, the last time i tested it with adaption i got electricity resistance. Did they changed it sometime?

There used to be a bug where adaptation gave the wrong resistance (ie CHG gave corrosive resist ???), that might be it. 

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vor 58 Minuten schrieb Benour:

Also Gauss tankiness comes from energy gain per dmg/hit and QT not the actual DR from battery charge, you should run adaptation on Gauss anyway, The DR from battery lvl is just cherry on the cake. Do you even Gauss brah?

Soooo his tankiness comes from some unintended soon-to-be-fixed mechanic? WOW! Sadly this is the only thing he does better than the other frames. For now.

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9 minutes ago, Sace said:

Soooo his tankiness comes from some unintended soon-to-be-fixed mechanic? WOW! Sadly this is the only thing he does better than the other frames. For now.

Sooo you work for DE programming team and you know everything it seems. :clap:

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vor 11 Minuten schrieb Benour:

Sooo you work for DE programming team and you know everything it seems. :clap:

Does it seem so? Well thanks for the compliment!

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1 minute ago, Autongnosis said:

I'm all for frames that make you work for a result. 

Gauss is literally the opposite of that. It simply forces you into a brutally spammy gameplay to just work. It's not "this is a good frame but if you do a number of comboes he does incredible", it's "this is a bad frame that only works if you spam your 1 over and over". 

 

That's what i meant when i said dependency is not sinergy. You know what has sinergy? Trinity. Trinity has sone creative power uses, some were patched out (link nuke and 1-2 cannon), some weren't and are still incredibly effective. Like link posts. Link works on its own perfectly well, but by combining it with Well Of Life it also gains a guaranteed linked target and gives hp regen passively. 

 

Tbh i would love the frame if it actually made it possible to work for the buffs instead of shoehorning you into constantly spamming 1 and 3 for no good reason, to the point of obnoxiousness. Most of my complaints would solve themselves if they integrated battery buildup into his kit regardless of redline, and then made redline be more about its own buffs than about making the rest of his kit worth using. 

Let's put this another way.

In order to stay alive as Trinity, you will need to cast either Blessing or Well of Life alongside Link over and over. She is a bad frame that only works if you spam these three abilities and her Energy Siphon in order to maintain this spam, since she's far too fragile to survive long without them. By the metric of 'spamminess' she's just as bad as Gauss. A lot of frames that focus on casting are.

Using a Frame's abilities is functionally indistinguishable from playing the frame, as ability use is one of the core mechanics of playing a frame. Gauss's 1 is the lynchpin of his kit since whilst the rest of his kit enables him to not drop speed, to slow down enemies or increase speed in other areas, his 1 is his ability to move very fast and thus charge the battery. That's its purpose, just like how Link's purpose is keeping you alive long enough to use your other powers. In terms of resources, not being able to make good use of Gauss's powers because you don't have the battery charge and not being able to make good use of Trinity's powers because she's dead are more or less the same thing. 

Gauss has a significant amount of power. Being able to use it relies on proper management of his gauge. That involves using his 1 a lot since that's a primary measure for refilling the gauge

 

Also, an ability that lets you approach lightning fast, cancel most hard animations and CC's nearby enemies (in two different flavours) isn't a good ability on its own? It's also incredibly quick to use letting it be a very reactionary ability.

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35 minutes ago, Autongnosis said:

You are crazy man. I don't even want to fact check those 200k kills, but calling mesa a not so special tank is the epitome of stupid tbh. You are seriously considering a 125k ehp frame with passive hard CC, one long duration but shirt ranged and the other short duration but with infinite range, all of this before adaptation, a not so special tank. 

Spawn that room full of lv 165 CHGs and show me how you manage to die cause i just can't. 

 

On the topic of disruption, all frames are mostly useless there. Only non melee self buffers have any amount of value. Otherwise the frame is entirely irrelevant, you just use lockdown plus temporal blast to stun the demo endlessly and any CO spooler with a redeemer prime. 

There used to be a bug where adaptation gave the wrong resistance (ie CHG gave corrosive resist ???), that might be it. 

Problem with mesa is her peacemaker starts to falloff at like lvl 200+ armored enemies and you cant go ham on melee which scales much much further (well except redeemer prime that thing is OP). Meanwhile Gauss can just zip around with gram prime and do insane bleeds with it. But w/e my man, not saying mesa is bad tank i know she can tank TRUCKTON it has just this "dont get close" limitation that i dont like much, shes also awesome with snipers which can carry you for loong time (when PM starts to fall off) while still being very tanky and CC stuff.

Anyway i like gauss, maybe hes not perfect but his playstyle is super fun for me, wisp was close, but gauss March Rush and his 2/4 are simply awesome, fits my playstyle and actually cant wait to get home from work and log in warframe, which didnt happen in last year with any frame/weapon/content. Peace.

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il y a 10 minutes, Loza03 a dit :

[...] She is a bad frame that only works if you spam these three abilities and her Energy Siphon in order to maintain this spam, since she's far too fragile to survive long without them. By the metric of 'spamminess' she's just as bad as Gauss. A lot of frames that focus on casting are.

Using a Frame's abilities is functionally indistinguishable from playing the frame, as ability use is one of the core mechanics of playing a frame.

[...] In terms of resources, not being able to make good use of Gauss's powers because you don't have the battery charge and not being able to make good use of Trinity's powers because she's dead are more or less the same thing. 

Gauss has a significant amount of power. Being able to use it relies on proper management of his gauge. That involves using his 1 a lot since that's a primary measure for refilling the gauge

The analogy with trin doesn't really work tho. Gauss is a trin with an Energy Vampire that cannot regain more than 60 energy per cast and doesn't give the final full pulse on kill and a Link that takes 2/3rd of its duration to ramp up to its full potential basically.

That would make it akin to Gauss and its arbitrary kit limitations. 

Currently trin casts quite a bit, to be sure, but nothing on the level of Gauss. She can just do a single cast cycle ever 20ish seconds and be good. While Gauss needs to constantly spam because his kit just isn't that effective out of redline and redline has that stupid ramp up dilation mechanic over its duration. 

 

The problem is also compounded by the fact Gauss has no viable way to build his meter outside spamming 1 and 3. While Trinity can use a number of mechanics to severely reduce the spam needed like arcanes, focus schools etc. 

You see I'd much prefer if the battery went completely away and he just depended on energy level tbh, it would be far more manageable. 

 

The other issue is that to properly cap redline you aren't using the power, you are spamming it. Basically you will use his 1 and 3 not because of what they offer but because of the battery charge. While something like Trinity will use the various abilities when needed, which is the core difference. 

 

Again, if they dod a proper work on battery charging that worked seamlessly into the gameplay instead of shoehorning it into the spam of two powers, I'd be a lot happier with Gauss as a whole. 

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il y a 2 minutes, Benour a dit :

Problem with mesa is her peacemaker starts to falloff at like lvl 200+ armored enemies and you cant go ham on melee which scales much much further (well except redeemer prime that thing is OP). Meanwhile Gauss can just zip around with gram prime and do insane bleeds with it. But w/e my man, not saying mesa is bad tank i know she can tank TRUCKTON it has just this "dont get close" limitation that i dont like much, shes also awesome with snipers which can carry you for loong time (when PM starts to fall off) while still being very tanky and CC stuff.

Anyway i like gauss, maybe hes not perfect but his playstyle is super fun for me, wisp was close, but gauss March Rush and his 2/4 are simply awesome, fits my playstyle and actually cant wait to get home from work and log in warframe, which didnt happen in last year with any frame/weapon/content. Peace.

So it's about not liking how Mesa tanks, which i can fully get behind. Unlike the previous statements which were aimed at downtalking how much she can tank. 

 

On top of that, i fully agree. If you didn't notice so far, the reason i went for a vitriol filled OP on the bad state of Gauss is precisely because i feel he's a good addition to the roaster and brings a good gameplay template, IF done properly. Which is where imo it fails. 

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59 minutes ago, Autongnosis said:

The analogy with trin doesn't really work tho. Gauss is a trin with an Energy Vampire that cannot regain more than 60 energy per cast and doesn't give the final full pulse on kill and a Link that takes 2/3rd of its duration to ramp up to its full potential basically.

That would make it akin to Gauss and its arbitrary kit limitations. 

Currently trin casts quite a bit, to be sure, but nothing on the level of Gauss. She can just do a single cast cycle ever 20ish seconds and be good. While Gauss needs to constantly spam because his kit just isn't that effective out of redline and redline has that stupid ramp up dilation mechanic over its duration. 

Kit limitations are needed. Limitations are literally what balance is. Doing a single cast cycle and being fine is the opposite of working for a result, which is what you said you were 'all for. It's literally just pressing some buttons and being powerful enough to do whatever. Gauss requires you properly juggle his resources.

1 hour ago, Autongnosis said:

The problem is also compounded by the fact Gauss has no viable way to build his meter outside spamming 1 and 3. While Trinity can use a number of mechanics to severely reduce the spam needed like arcanes, focus schools etc. 

You see I'd much prefer if the battery went completely away and he just depended on energy level tbh, it would be far more manageable. 

It would be far easier to manage due to the immense number of ways we have to circumvent energy management, but... that's the point.

Gauss represents a shift in design philosophy away from such low-effort frames. Gauss is supposed to be a challenge to manage - that's the whole point. You get rewarded for succeeding in doing that. You say you're fine with that, yet are complaining about it.

1 hour ago, Autongnosis said:

The other issue is that to properly cap redline you aren't using the power, you are spamming it. Basically you will use his 1 and 3 not because of what they offer but because of the battery charge. While something like Trinity will use the various abilities when needed, which is the core difference. 

If you're doing that, then you're not doing it right. Gauss's 1 is good in its own right, as I said. You will want to be using it to knock down enemies. His 3 is also good, and indeed better in redline since it produces hard CC. The range is somewhat moot considering Gauss's 1 gives him the ability to get in range very easily.

You don't need redline up all the time. Gauss's powers are perfectly fine without it. The ability is designed for you to use it when there's lots of enemies around - in other words, lots of reason for you to be running around and using Gauss's powers.

1 hour ago, Autongnosis said:

Again, if they dod a proper work on battery charging that worked seamlessly into the gameplay instead of shoehorning it into the spam of two powers, I'd be a lot happier with Gauss as a whole. 

Such as, for example, giving him charge whenever he runs?

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vor 2 Minuten schrieb Loza03:

Such as, for example, giving him charge whenever he runs?

Yeah. Would be nice to actually get meaningful charge instead of not even reaching 80% with redline and kinetic plating active throughout the 254% modded duration. And that is with sprinting only, which makes it impossible to do anything else without breaking the sprint. Would be even more awesome to actually hold the battery above 80% with only pacing around the battlefield fast and not just spamming mach rush. Sadly, this is not a thing for Gauss.

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2 minutes ago, Sace said:

Yeah. Would be nice to actually get meaningful charge instead of not even reaching 80% with redline and kinetic plating active throughout the 254% modded duration. And that is with sprinting only, which makes it impossible to do anything else without breaking the sprint. Would be even more awesome to actually hold the battery above 80% with only pacing around the battlefield fast and not just spamming mach rush. Sadly, this is not a thing for Gauss.

Gauss gets plenty meaningful charge with it outside of Redline. When using redline, well then that goes into the whole 'managing resources' thing again.

If managing the resource when using your very powerful buff that magnifies the effectiveness of everything you have took no real effort and could just be achieved by the bare minimum requirement of 'moving', then it would be pointless. Redline is effectively a 'increase the reward, but also increase the risk' ability. In other words, a well-designed power.

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vor 2 Minuten schrieb Loza03:

Gauss gets plenty meaningful charge with it outside of Redline. When using redline, well then that goes into the whole 'managing resources' thing again.

If managing the resource when using your very powerful buff that magnifies the effectiveness of everything you have took no real effort and could just be achieved by the bare minimum requirement of 'moving', then it would be pointless. Redline is effectively a 'increase the reward, but also increase the risk' ability. In other words, a well-designed power.

Increase the risk? In what way? Redline only decreases efficiency by forcing you to charge the battery even more if you want to get the most out of it (by forcing you to relocate or bash into nearby walls at least every second). Or you outright ignore redline and battery demand while focusing on efficiently killing and moving instead. This of course disables all synergies of redline and moreover reduces the buff you gain from it. It forces you to do less and spam 1 more if you want to enter a battle with maximum strength from redline. At this point you are better off just using kinetic plating with quick thinking and ignoring redline. Enemies drop faster when you can focus on the battle instead of the battery and for stronger enemies you just whip out your redeemer and move on. Less hectic, overall more efficient and less work for more reward.

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Strange i have no issues with Marching around and keeping my battery over 100% and charging my Redline. I must the progamer my grandmom was telling me stories about when i was young tenno... 

Only issue i have with charging battery is when i get hit alot.

I have 0 issues to run and gun while marching around. Also you are not supposted to sit at maxed Redline 24/7 its just cherry on the cake. In distruption/interception i constantly move/charge my battery anyway, its literally passive bonus when i reach maxed Redline.

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20 minutes ago, Sace said:

Increase the risk? In what way? Redline only decreases efficiency by forcing you to charge the battery even more if you want to get the most out of it (by forcing you to relocate or bash into nearby walls at least every second). Or you outright ignore redline and battery demand while focusing on efficiently killing and moving instead. This of course disables all synergies of redline and moreover reduces the buff you gain from it. It forces you to do less and spam 1 more if you want to enter a battle with maximum strength from redline. At this point you are better off just using kinetic plating with quick thinking and ignoring redline. Enemies drop faster when you can focus on the battle instead of the battery and for stronger enemies you just whip out your redeemer and move on. Less hectic, overall more efficient and less work for more reward.

Because losing charge means losing your safety net in kinetic plating, and a longer charge up next time you need to pop the power.

See, what sounds like the problem is you seem to be wanting to enter the fight with redline already up at full power. That's not the point - that's improperly managing it. You're supposed to be entering the battle with full battery and redline off, and then turning it on because you feel like you need it because there's lots of enemies around. Certainly, that's how I use it, and it works just fine and very efficiently. 

There's a reason one of its synergies is making Mach Rush cheaper. Mach Rush is your approach tool. If you're in a situation where you're unlikely to be approaching very often, then you won't be using it as much. Redline is designed so that you use it when you would be using Mach Rush and Thermal Sunder a lot anyway. If you pop it when you aren't doing this - when you don't need to actually take your combat to the limit (to the 'redline' if you will), then you're doing it wrong.

 

If I had to make one change to redline, it would be letting you continue to attack as normal whilst activating it (only playing the animation if you aren't using your upper body, much like how lower body animations work), and during that period of 'charging up', dealing damage will give you an initial %age boost - up to about 25% free percent.

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