Gauss is a design trainwreck - absolute intrakit dependency, ridiculously arbitrary limitations, not a shred of team utility of any kind

[Teridax68]

1 hour ago, Gwyndolin-chan said:

yeah, fight starchart level enemies with at least 100% strength and range

Literally any frame can do just fine against Star Chart-level enemies with a half-decent build, and some don't even need 100% strength for it. If the pinnacle of a warframe's achievement is that it can kill enemies in the Star Chart, what exactly is it good at?

[Sace]

vor 44 Minuten schrieb Gwyndolin-chan:

"Basically invincible" is literally the epitome of usability and strength.

As I wrote (which you didn't read, again) I presume this oversight will be fixed. And no, simply being invincible doesn't make a Frame usable or strong. Also: Inaros is truly hard to kill, Gauss can still be nulli'd or simply oneshot. So he even fails at this despite using a probably not intended 'exploit'.

 

vor 44 Minuten schrieb Gwyndolin-chan:

So with that in mind, yes, Gauss is extremely usable, responsive, zips around fast as lightning, and fits like a glove. And is also extremely strong given that they can 1-hit KO enemies just by tackling them into out-of-zone boxes.

Sadly not, no. But maybe we will get there with some little buffs here and there.

 

vor 41 Minuten schrieb Loza03:

Circular Logic.

I don't see where. I use Redline off cooldown because it provides minor bonus to reload speed, holster speed, attack speed, etc etc. and certainly won't ignore it until I face a larger battle, whatever large may be defined as. If I go pug with a Volt and cast Redline when approaching a large group of enemies, they are all dead before the animation even stopped. 99% of this game is killing ~ 10 enemies at a time which in turn would mean you specifically would never really use Redline. Sorry that I don't buy into that. Not using a 70s ability in calm times and not recasting off cooldown couldn't be more of a waste. Just because you activate Redline at 80% battery doesn't mean that you magically sit at 100% battery for a comfortable amount of time. It still needs at least one Mach Rush to get a bit over 80%, if you don't use Mach Rush again you will drop below 80 in the next few seconds disabling most synergies as well as a large portion of Redline's buff.

As I said: In my opinion, endless battery is where Gauss starts to sit right. Nerf his Kinetic Plating to adjust for the 100% DR and make achieving endless battery easier/ make battery capacity scale properly with Duration/Efficiency/Strength while reducing the benefits (regarding Kinetic Plating) a bit to truly bring out the synergies and give the player more time to utilize them.

[TeaHawk]

Bump<>

3d is terrible. 2 cast and small range really suck. No viable cc at all.

4th is extremely long and nearly impossible to build in close quarters.

Negative synergy ewith duration sucks.

Acceltra's self damage is a joke.

 

Thanks for pointing it out

[(PSN)CommanderC2121]

1 hour ago, Loza03 said:

 

Also, Thermal Sunder only needs above the redline to have the instant freeze, so you can get that right from the word go. No need for 100%.

 

While this is true, i do also wish his %armor strip (gained by dealing the blast proc while redline is active) was a flat 50% no matter what, as opposed to scaling 0-50% based on redline percentage  

[(PSN)CommanderC2121]

55 minutes ago, Sace said:

As I wrote (which you didn't read, again) I presume this oversight will be fixed. And no, simply being invincible doesn't make a Frame usable or strong. Also: Inaros is truly hard to kill, Gauss can still be nulli'd or simply oneshot. So he even fails at this despite using a probably not intended 'exploit'.

I have memory of a frame who was recently reworked who’s only claim to fame being that he couldnt die 🤔 im sure everyone said he didnt need to be changed at all because he couldnt die 

[Loza03]

44 minutes ago, Sace said:

I don't see where. I use Redline off cooldown because it provides minor bonus to reload speed, holster speed, attack speed, etc etc. and certainly won't ignore it until I face a larger battle, whatever large may be defined as. If I go pug with a Volt and cast Redline when approaching a large group of enemies, they are all dead before the animation even stopped. 99% of this game is killing ~ 10 enemies at a time which in turn would mean you specifically would never really use Redline. Sorry that I don't buy into that. Not using a 70s ability in calm times and not recasting off cooldown couldn't be more of a waste. Just because you activate Redline at 80% battery doesn't mean that you magically sit at 100% battery for a comfortable amount of time. It still needs at least one Mach Rush to get a bit over 80%, if you don't use Mach Rush again you will drop below 80 in the next few seconds disabling most synergies as well as a large portion of Redline's buff.

You brought up an issue in that it's useless for clearing a room then moving on - I responded by pointing out that's not the use for it. You responded with an issue with activating it mid-combat. I pointed out that, no, there really isn't. Your response was that it was useless for room clearing then moving on.

 

Once upon a time, it was true what you say, when things like Sabotage were the only mission. Now? There's no shortage of missions where enemies are constant supply. Survival, ESO, Defence - taking a few seconds out to make your overall killing more effective is, frankly very much worth it.

[Fallen_Echo]

On 2019-09-10 at 10:58 AM, Benour said:

Yeah i could say same about mesa being hit in the face by melee and die instantly. Also no frame in the game is going to facetank lvl 300+ Nulli shot (well gauss might it seems and Revenant). Sooo yeah... Also Gauss tankiness comes from energy gain per dmg/hit and QT not the actual DR from battery charge, you should run adaptation on Gauss anyway, The DR from battery lvl is just cherry on the cake. Do you even Gauss brah?

Except Rhino, Baruuk, Harrow, Limbo, Hildryn, Nyx, Valkyr, Wukong, Zephyr, Garuda.

These frames can survive that lv300 nullfier shot without having to resort to making a QT build, but heres a thing Gauss is not tanky quick thinking is tanky what you put on gauss.

[(PSN)CommanderC2121]

42 minutes ago, Fallen_Echo said:

Except Rhino, Baruuk, Harrow, Limbo, Hildryn, Nyx, Valkyr, Wukong, Zephyr, Garuda.

These frames can survive that lv300 nullfier shot without having to resort to making a QT build, but heres a thing Gauss is not tanky quick thinking is tanky what you put on gauss.

While I agree with your statement, you could also argue that limbo doesnt tank as much as just ignores the nulli. 

 

Also you forgot nidus

[CatboyPrincess]

6 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

Literally any frame can do just fine against Star Chart-level enemies with a half-decent build, and some don't even need 100% strength for it. If the pinnacle of a warframe's achievement is that it can kill enemies in the Star Chart, what exactly is it good at?

Mine was a facetious response specifically regarding "useful damage" on the third ability, the point of which was to make a jab at the implication that the 3rd ability is only good for damage (because obviously it's not).

Addressing your new point: Gauss does fine against Arbitration level enemies, Sortie level enemies, and enemies well above level 100. Past that, Warframe balance is already known to be strange and unfit for some frames (as well as being niche).

6 hours ago, Sace said:

As I wrote (which you didn't read, again) I presume this oversight will be fixed. And no, simply being invincible doesn't make a Frame usable or strong. Also: Inaros is truly hard to kill, Gauss can still be nulli'd or simply oneshot. So he even fails at this despite using a probably not intended 'exploit'.

No, I read it. I ignored it because discussing a game element based on presumptions about how it might be changed in the future is nonsense. (The dev, DE, might simply decide "this is a feature.") Further, the wording and mechanics of the ability indicate that it is not an "oversight." DE did not write "health damage is converted into energy" (i.e. mechanics work like Rage or Hunter Adrenaline and Quick Thinking). They write "converts a portion of absorbed Kinetic Damage into Energy." So this isn't relevant.

Limbo, Harrow, Mesa, Nezha, Excalibur, Loki, Revenant, Zephyr, Ember, Mirage, Nyx, Rhino, Valkyr, Trinity, Nova, Saryn, Octavia, Ivara, Atlas, Oberon, Banshee, Titania, Chroma, Gara, Wukong, Ash can all "still be nulli'd or simply oneshot". Nullifiers are symptomatic of a deeper systemic issue. Nullifiers can be played around. 2 of 4 major factions have Nullifiers.

Simply being invincible doesn't make a frame usable or strong -- you're right. Inaros is the strongest because on top of being simply invincible, they can also one-shot enemies with Covert Lethality and pocket sand, heal allies, stunlock enemies, and make allies. Their usability comes from each of their abilities being easy to use and understand, with no ability being particularly out of place (except Sandstorm but at least it makes for good flavour) and unified in working together.

My point was to demonstrate that with Inaros setting a gold standard for strong and usable, Gauss remains usable and strong.

6 hours ago, Sace said:

Sadly not, no.

Okay so you don't actually have an argument that doesn't boil down to personal feeling. Good to get that out of the way.

 

6 hours ago, Sace said:

But maybe we will get there with some little buffs here and there.

sure. I really like Gauss so more buffs in keeping with the existing flavour and systems would be fine.

 

6 hours ago, Sace said:

Just because you activate Redline at 80% battery doesn't mean that you magically sit at 100% battery for a comfortable amount of time. It still needs at least one Mach Rush to get a bit over 80%, if you don't use Mach Rush again you will drop below 80 in the next few seconds disabling most synergies as well as a large portion of Redline's buff.

demonstrably, provably, laughably wrong.

[Pictured: Redline at 1.6s remaining duration, a 98% Redline counter, and 90%+ battery level.]

I hopped into Simulacrum and literally only by holding my forwards key in sprint mode and turning with my mouse, got to this point. No other abilities.

 

I don't understand how anyone can have any issues as long as they use the tools provided to them by the game. Need tankiness? Quick Thinking. Don't have Quick Thinking? Armored Agility, Rush, Speed Drift, Amalgam Serration -- more sprint speed, less getting hit. Need room-clearing? Use Saryn/Volt/Ember/Equinox. Need CC? Use 3rd. Not enough mod capacity? Orokin Reactor and/or Forma.

In what scenario does Gauss exactly fall apart as a design? When you fall asleep at your keyboard? Can't mash 4 like Volt or Saryn? when your forward movement control is broken?

Again, nearly all of these complaints have no basis other than "I can't play Gauss like I do Volt or Saryn or Zephyr or... or..." -- personal bias. Which isn't a basis when the whole point of Gauss is to promote a different style of play that does not constitute standing around mashing 4, i.e. catering to a different kind of personal bias.

If you don't like Gauss's flavour, then just say that instead of trying to box Gauss in as generic-frame-911.

Edited September 11, 2019 by Gwyndolin-chan

[Teridax68]

4 minutes ago, Gwyndolin-chan said:

Addressing your new point: Gauss does fine against Arbitration level enemies, Sortie level enemies, and enemies well above level 100. Past that, Warframe balance is already known to be strange and unfit for some frames (as well as being niche).

Fine... how? What exactly does he do in particular that makes him any good there? Because even a frame like Ember or Vauban can do "fine" against level 100+ enemies; that doesn't mean they're on the same level there as what is generally considered acceptable. His damage clearly isn't relevant there, so in the end he just boils down to a pared-down DR buff with attack steroids.

[CatboyPrincess]

59 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

that doesn't mean they're on the same level there as what is generally considered acceptable. His damage clearly isn't relevant there, so in the end he just boils down to a pared-down DR buff with attack steroids.

You're right.

Gauss's 1 should instantly kill anyone Gauss runs over.

Kinetic Plating should reflect damage with a 2.5x10^12% modifier.

Redline should cause any enemies Gauss kills to die twice in a row, re-rolling its loot table as if Gauss had killed a given enemy twice while active. On-death effects like Sobek's Acid Shells occur twice in a row.

Thermal Sunder should end the mission in Victory (for Gauss only).

Also Nyx's Chaos should instantly kill any enemy affected and then crash the game if its duration ever hits zero. And Mag should be literally removed from the game.

kappa

EDIT:

At what point is "generally considered acceptable?" Why is "pared-down DR buff with attack steroids" insufficient? What about Gauss's CC? What about Gauss's rapid-response capabilities?

I do have one suggestion for Gauss, actually: Mach Rush should deal damage on contact. Maybe that contact damage provides additional battery and/or triggers Kinetic Plating as Kinetic Damage.

Edited September 11, 2019 by Gwyndolin-chan

[Teridax68]

2 hours ago, Gwyndolin-chan said:

Gauss's 1 should instantly kill anyone Gauss runs over.

See, the sad part is that even if this were implemented, Gauss would still be unlikely to be OP, because other frames can already quickly kill crowds of enemies without even having to touch them. In any case, I fail to see why it would be so bad to give his 1 higher damage, especially when its current damage output is so pathetic.

Quote

Kinetic Plating should reflect damage with a 2.5x10^12% modifier.

As with the above, even this kind of effect would still be reasonable, as he would still be unable to kill enemies as quickly as others (not that he'd need to). Your ideas for what constitutes an overpowered frame are ironically fairly limited.

Quote

Redline should cause any enemies Gauss kills to die twice in a row, re-rolling its loot table as if Gauss had killed a given enemy twice while active. On-death effects like Sobek's Acid Shells occur twice in a row.

So basically a zhuzhed-up Pilfering effect? Sure, what's so overpowered about that?

Quote

EDIT:

At what point is "generally considered acceptable?" Why is "pared-down DR buff with attack steroids" insufficient? What about Gauss's CC? What about Gauss's rapid-response capabilities?

What CC? His knockdown is piddly, and his freeze is outdone by another frame, while also having its range reduced by his typical builds. What even are "rapid-response capabilities" here? He can go fast in a straight line, but that's not very useful in most mission types, and beyond that he outputs nothing unique. He's just a bundle of steroids, which other frames do equally or better. Point being, his performance clearly doesn't match up to most frames, which is why you tried to dress him up as this frame that does well in the Star Chart, as if that were somehow an exceptional quality.

Quote

I do have one suggestion for Gauss, actually: Mach Rush should deal damage on contact. Maybe that contact damage provides additional battery and/or triggers Kinetic Plating as Kinetic Damage.

These are fine suggestions, but how exactly will this meaningfully improve him? If the contact damage were to be anything like the explosion damage, it's not going to make much of a difference.

Edited September 12, 2019 by Teridax68

[CatboyPrincess]

No other frame does what Gauss does in one cohesive package.

Much like Nezha and when so many would complain that "UGH NEZHA IS JUST A WORSE RHINO/TRINITY/WHATEVER," overlooking everything that makes the frame unique and flow differently from other frames. This culminated in some minor changes that really didn't change the essence of the frame.

Sorry, but at the end of the day, all you have is "why isn't Gauss Saryn/Mesa/Volt."

Gauss goes fast. Gauss does it well. If you want something else, pick something else. Boring thread. Goodbye.

Edited September 12, 2019 by Gwyndolin-chan

[Teridax68]

6 minutes ago, Gwyndolin-chan said:

No other frame does what Gauss does in one cohesive package.

And what does Gauss do, exactly?

6 minutes ago, Gwyndolin-chan said:

Much like Nezha and when so many would complain that "UGH NEZHA IS JUST A WORSE RHINO/TRINITY/WHATEVER," overlooking everything that makes the frame unique and flow differently from other frames. This culminated in some minor changes that really didn't change the essence of the frame.

The fact that you view Nezha's changes this way conveys a pretty serious misunderstanding of both Nezha and frame design in general: Nezha was in fact a worse Rhino for a long time, because several of his abilities were almost carbon copies, and those that weren't directly lifted from Rhino were not worth using, and had no interaction with the rest of his kit. He received a change that fundamentally altered how his abilities worked and interacted with each other, in such a way that his gameplay, identity, and popularity improved significantly. He only became a unique frame after those changes, and if you genuinely view his rework as small, then I fail all the more to see why you would be opposed to the same happening to other frames, when the process has largely been successful.

6 minutes ago, Gwyndolin-chan said:

Sorry, but at the end of the day, all you have is "why isn't Gauss Saryn/Mesa/Volt."

But that's my point: I'm not asking Gauss to be this AoE nuker, I'm asking for him to do contribute something, anything, to his team that can't simply be boiled down to an extra gun in the mission. Even Mesa, an incredibly self-sufficient frame, has this incidental amount of utility on her 2. Wisp has an even better speed steroid than Gauss, due to how her Reservoirs scale with Power Strength and his Redline doesn't, and can give that steroid to her whole team to boot, yet even then isn't considered exceptional at high-levels. It is great that Gauss has the ability to freeze enemies, but that alone isn't exactly enough of a unique contribution, or reason to pick Gauss over another frame.

6 minutes ago, Gwyndolin-chan said:

Gauss goes fast. Gauss does it well. If you want something else, pick something else. Boring thread. Goodbye.

Volt goes fast, Nova goes fast, Zephyr goes fast, yet all of these frames get to also do something else. If going fast is Gauss's only claim to fame, and he can only truly go fast in two of the entire game's levels... why pick him? If you really cannot produce any argument of substance on the matter, then you would indeed be wise to leave this thread.

[Annnoth]

52 minutes ago, Gwyndolin-chan said:

No other frame does what Gauss does in one cohesive package.

Wisp? Outside of mach rush wisp has a speed boost, fire rate boost, huge stun that comes with a decent bit of extra damage, big regen + invisibility making her quite hard to kill, he own fairly fast movement ability.

She might not have an armor strip like gauss or do a couple of these things as powerfully as gauss since gauss is the best in his class for the fire rate boost and speed at least, but wisp can kinda acomplish preeety similar things with abilities that just play out differently. Rather, gauue is acomplishing things wisp has been doing.

Going extra fast is all gauss really has over other frames.

Edited September 12, 2019 by Annnoth

[HyokaChan]

While your mach rush complaints aren't unfounded, it's literally what Gauss is designed for: Running in a straight line. Like, literally, if he wasn't then the aoe blast upon crashing into walls wouldn't be a thing.

One feature that I think would help is if Gauss could wallrun during Mach Rush when nearing a wall at wallrun angles.. It wouldn't be straight up broken, but he won't be completely crap going around a place like Jupiter. Even the Flash finds himself going up and down buildings a lot.

Edited September 12, 2019 by HyokaChan

[Fallen_Echo]

13 hours ago, (PS4)CommanderC2121 said:

While I agree with your statement, you could also argue that limbo doesnt tank as much as just ignores the nulli. 

 

Also you forgot nidus

Yeah Limbo kinda just ignores the damage.

 

I tried to list only frames what can just ignore any enemy damage with a simple push of a button. Nidus needs to build stacks to reach undying and to be tanky.

[Sace]

vor 11 Stunden schrieb Gwyndolin-chan:

Limbo, Harrow, Mesa, Nezha, Excalibur, Loki, Revenant, Zephyr, Ember, Mirage, Nyx, Rhino, Valkyr, Trinity, Nova, Saryn, Octavia, Ivara, Atlas, Oberon, Banshee, Titania, Chroma, Gara, Wukong, Ash can all "still be nulli'd or simply oneshot". Nullifiers are symptomatic of a deeper systemic issue. Nullifiers can be played around. 2 of 4 major factions have Nullifiers.

Yep. But many of them have far better abilities than Gauss.

vor 11 Stunden schrieb Gwyndolin-chan:

Simply being invincible doesn't make a frame usable or strong -- you're right. Inaros is the strongest because on top of being simply invincible, they can also one-shot enemies with Covert Lethality and pocket sand, heal allies, stunlock enemies, and make allies. Their usability comes from each of their abilities being easy to use and understand, with no ability being particularly out of place (except Sandstorm but at least it makes for good flavour) and unified in working together.

Many of those abilities are super situational and won't help in the 'harder' parts of Warframe leaving only his survivability. If Inaros is the strongest Frame for you, I don't question why you think Gauss is perfectly fine.

vor 12 Stunden schrieb Gwyndolin-chan:

Okay so you don't actually have an argument that doesn't boil down to personal feeling. Good to get that out of the way.

I have, it's not my problem that you chose to ignore it. ;)

vor 12 Stunden schrieb Gwyndolin-chan:

demonstrably, provably, laughably wrong.

https://gfycat.com/dismalflamboyantblobfish-warframe

With Kinetic Plating an Redline active, Sprinting with Amalgam Serration, Rush, Armored Agility. Even though the build is already gimped and even weaker just to boost movement, the battery drains to 80%. This is with sprinting, which means not contributing to the actual mission. Battery drain is in free fall with running and shooting. To benefit from (since you stress this so much) QT and redline and it's synergies, you are demonstrably, provably, laughably forced to spam Mach Rush if you plan on doing anything else than sprinting. Look how fast the battery drains after Gauss stopped for less than a second. Top notch sprinting simulator, mate.

 

vor 12 Stunden schrieb Gwyndolin-chan:

I don't understand how anyone can have any issues as long as they use the tools provided to them by the game. Need tankiness? Quick Thinking. Don't have Quick Thinking? Armored Agility, Rush, Speed Drift, Amalgam Serration -- more sprint speed, less getting hit. Need room-clearing? Use Saryn/Volt/Ember/Equinox. Need CC? Use 3rd. Not enough mod capacity? Orokin Reactor and/or Forma.

I advise you to just read the complaints if you still didn't understand what issues people have with Gauss. It's not really that hard.

 

vor 12 Stunden schrieb Gwyndolin-chan:

In what scenario does Gauss exactly fall apart as a design? When you fall asleep at your keyboard? Can't mash 4 like Volt or Saryn? when your forward movement control is broken?

I never said that Gauss falls apart as a design. You should really read the posts more closely.

 

vor 12 Stunden schrieb Gwyndolin-chan:

Again, nearly all of these complaints have no basis other than "I can't play Gauss like I do Volt or Saryn or Zephyr or... or..." -- personal bias. Which isn't a basis when the whole point of Gauss is to promote a different style of play that does not constitute standing around mashing 4, i.e. catering to a different kind of personal bias.

If you don't like Gauss's flavour, then just say that instead of trying to box Gauss in as generic-frame-911.

I don't want to play him like Volt or whatever. I want him to be good at what he does. Sadly, this is not the case. He is not good at CC. He is not good at speed (too slow in Open World to not just hop into Archwing, bad at parkour which is 95% of indoor missions, Wukong and Volt is faster there), he is not good at tanking (He shouldn't be anyways IMHO; I am still convinced that the QT combo will be fixed). His Redline at 100% battery and/or 100% Redline charge is quite beefy and actually a pretty good ability. The only gripe is all that extra-pampering of the battery to keep it great. Other Warframes are way better off in perfoming great without going through all the hassle. All of these problems can be negated by small tweaks to his kit. Make Mach Rush speed go up, the longer it is being used, make it drain battery per second, not per distance traveled, raise its damage, reduce overall battery cost, make Redline recastable while retaining portion of his %, make Thermal Sunder CC more than just once or even not at all (enemies entering the field after cast are somehow not frozen?) or raise the range, also rework that second part of Thermal Sunder because why would I gimp myself by using it when not having endless battery? All of this won't raise him to meta of course, but at least make playing him more enjoyable.

[000l000]

Il y a 13 heures, Gwyndolin-chan a dit :

I don't understand how anyone can have any issues as long as they use the tools provided to them by the game. Need tankiness? Quick Thinking. Don't have Quick Thinking? Armored Agility, Rush, Speed Drift, Amalgam Serration -- more sprint speed, less getting hit. Need room-clearing? Use Saryn/Volt/Ember/Equinox. Need CC? Use 3rd. Not enough mod capacity? Orokin Reactor and/or Forma.

Because Gauss does have a power that is supposed to help with his tankiness so why would we use anything else than his own kit ? Most people arguing here didn't even get OP's point, Gauss isn't bad nor lacking of efficiency by any means, he's just a complete design mess that seriously lacks of consistency and balance.

And i'm still wondering why people aren't utterly disappointed by his awfully designed synergies cause getting a dozen seconds buffs every minute isn't interesting at all gameplay wise especially since player doesn't choose when he'll get the buff - You're just getting it after your stupid redline meter automatically reaches 100%. As i said previously, no one cares about a buff you can't activate at will, it's just bad design - i'm waiting for 40s to get this synergy and what ? enemies are gone, dead, round is finished, i have to go to the next point etc. This has to change cause it's not working at all ingame. If i really need to use that awfully expensive kinetic plating along with Redline at 100% i can't even choose the right time, and if i'm using kinetic plating to save my arse then i'm totally ruining my redline progress and have to start it all over again...

Arguing if Gauss can survive or kill isn't helping cause all frames can survive or kill - but design consistency, balance and ressource management are definitely what we should discuss about, especially since Gauss is a brand new frame - and an overcomplicated one.

[CatboyPrincess]

9 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

And what does Gauss do, exactly?

The fact that you view Nezha's changes this way conveys a pretty serious misunderstanding of both Nezha and frame design in general: Nezha was in fact a worse Rhino for a long time, because several of his abilities were almost carbon copies, and those that weren't directly lifted from Rhino were not worth using, and had no interaction with the rest of his kit. He received a change that fundamentally altered how his abilities worked and interacted with each other, in such a way that his gameplay, identity, and popularity improved significantly. He only became a unique frame after those changes, and if you genuinely view his rework as small, then I fail all the more to see why you would be opposed to the same happening to other frames, when the process has largely been successful.

But that's my point: I'm not asking Gauss to be this AoE nuker, I'm asking for him to do contribute something, anything, to his team that can't simply be boiled down to an extra gun in the mission. Even Mesa, an incredibly self-sufficient frame, has this incidental amount of utility on her 2. Wisp has an even better speed steroid than Gauss, due to how her Reservoirs scale with Power Strength and his Redline doesn't, and can give that steroid to her whole team to boot, yet even then isn't considered exceptional at high-levels. It is great that Gauss has the ability to freeze enemies, but that alone isn't exactly enough of a unique contribution, or reason to pick Gauss over another frame.

Volt goes fast, Nova goes fast, Zephyr goes fast, yet all of these frames get to also do something else. If going fast is Gauss's only claim to fame, and he can only truly go fast in two of the entire game's levels... why pick him? If you really cannot produce any argument of substance on the matter, then you would indeed be wise to leave this thread.

Gauss goes fast, has DR, has CC, has a steroid buff.

It was a small rework. DE made small changes across the board, none of which changed the essence of Nezha's abilities. Yes, the final effect was dramatic, but no flavour was changed in the process. And despite that, Nezha was still a unique frame even before the rework (of which I approve) -- Warding Halo had a stunning aura that was legitimately significant and provided status immunity which could be spread to allies via augment. Chakram still healed and allowed teleports, Fire Walker was still useful for laying down zone control, Spears was admittedly bad. I'm not opposed to similar small adjustments being made to other frames that in summation are significant. But the thread is largely "rework Gauss completely, rip out the Battery mechanic, remove this or that ability, etc. etc." which is not at all in line with a small rework like Nezha's or Nyx's that enhance existing characteristics.

Fine, that's clear at least.

Going fast is not Gauss's only claim to fame. UGH. None of those other frames' entire theme and kit revolve around going fast -- they go fast as an auxiliary ability. How often do Novas even use their portal? Gauss's theme and kit revolve around going fast in one direction, which is something that OP is clearly trying to change. Intrinsic to going fast is the steroid. The CC and DR are auxiliary to Gauss's main theme.

---

@Sace Sorry. I'm reading most of this as one vague blob of Gauss-hate. I see now that you are actually invested in Gauss being better.

---

Actually, I've put a lot of thought into how Gauss can be fine-tuned after some deep meditation in Arbitration. I too love Gauss and would want only better for them. I've been too angry at the OP. Ultimately, I want Gauss to be nutty fast and effective while going fast.

Here goes:

 

1. Mach Rush: should deal damage on contact. (Why it doesn't is a mystery, but it would be flavourful.) Let damage on contact be at least the amount of damage on a slam explosion. Additionally, battery should increase by ~0.5% per enemy hit. During Redline, each enemy hit should cause a slam explosion in addition to the regular effect.

This would emphasize the theme of crashing into an entrenched enemy force -- the more the foes try to stick together, the harder Gauss hits. Mach Rush usage offensively is promoted, providing an alternative to gunplay.

On 2019-09-10 at 11:40 PM, Sace said:

- Mach Rush too slow and costly

• Should be stacking over prolonged usage
• Not energy per distance traveled but per second

Should also apply. In addition, the total stacked additional speed translates 1:1 to increase in slam damage and radius. This scale is not affected by Strength or Range.

(Ex. A marathoning Gauss that has accelerated to 300% Mach Rush speed will generate a slam that deals 300% more damage in a 300% larger radius.)

(This damage boost also applies to tackled enemies.)

During Redline, the time required to increment the Mach Rush stacks is halved (fixed).

Increasing Strength and Range is now much more valuable.

 

2. Kinetic Plating: now has 2x duration (60 seconds). Max battery drain per hit should be decreased.

This will reduce tedium of recasting KP.

 

3. Thermal Sunder: Cold sunders increase the battery by an additional ~1.5% per enemy hit. Heat sunders should deal twice as much damage. The player can now hold a Heat sunder to continuously deal some damage, apply Heat procs, and strip armour of nearby enemies at a rate of -10 base armour per second (modified by Strength) at a cost of ~1% battery per second and 10 energy per second (throwaway energy drain value).

This will reward using Thermal Sunder in the middle of crowds. The risk to battery level through KP drain carried by being in the middle of a crowd is mitigated by the immediate, increased return on a Cold sunder.

It also provides an armour-melting capability to Thermal Sunder, introducing a relatively rare but powerful mechanic of base armour reduction and a worthwhile alternative to Redline for expending battery. It greatly rewards risk.

These changes would enable a Heat-based Thermal Sunder build a slower and more deliberate form of play for Gauss, requiring Strength and Range and some Efficiency and Duration.

 

4. Redline: dramatically reduced idle passive energy drain. However, energy drain during actions that are boosted (ex. firing, holstering, reloading, etc.) is about the same as now.

Speed boosts are now dictated by Strength, not Duration.

Base boost values are doubled.

Time to 100% Redline counter is set to 50% of default duration. This time frame is adjustable by Duration -- 100% Duration leads to 50% of default time to charge needed. 10% Duration leads to 5% of default duration. 200% Duration leads to 100% of default time to charge needed. 100% of default time needed to charge is the cap.

Cast time is now instant.

Redline can be held to extend cast time to current cast time. Doing so reduces time to charge by 20% (adjusted by Duration, capped at 40%).

(Ex. a Gauss with 10% Duration but 250% Strength can tap Redline for a brief but powerful buff that almost immediately escalates to 100% Redline counter. Redline is now an instant TURBO BOOST but exhausts quickly.)

(Ex. a Gauss with 250% Duration but 100% Strength can hold Redline for a few moments to generate a Redline buff that behaves almost identically to Redline in its current state -- a long-winding charge up with a medium speed boost throughout its duration.)

Alternatively: Cast time is intelligent; <100% Duration means instant casts. >=100% Duration means regular casts.

 

---

 

Altogether, these changes would enable more build variety with Gauss without diluting any of the flavour of Gauss.

 

Ex. Turbo Gauss with maximized Strength and minimum Duration can employ an obscene maximum power Redline at a moment's notice, without having to worry too much about KP, topped off with powerful Mach Rushes and Thermal Sunder damage. Heat sunder's armour reduction is a spike and cannot be maintained.

 

Ex. Marathon Gauss with maximized Duration, weak Range, and medium Efficiency and Strength. Can't rely on Heat sunder. Relies mostly on the Redline steroid for extended boosted gunplay. (Further enables new weapon builds.) Plays like current Gauss without as much Thermal Sunder or Mach Rush spam, and much better at gunplay.

 

Ex. Support Gauss with high Range, medium Efficiency, medium Strength, and medium Duration. Liberal use of Mach Rush as CC and gap-closer in order to melt down enemy armour with Heat sunder. Redline is not the focus here, and as such, is not terribly special in one way or another.

 

Ex. Regular Gauss with positive Range, Efficiency, Strength, and Duration. Plays like now with a new option for teamplay (armour melt) and is actually fast in open world environments.

Edited September 12, 2019 by Gwyndolin-chan

[ShortCat]

20 hours ago, Sace said:

Not when Redline is active but rather when Redline is active AND battery above 80%, which Kinetic Plating is working against actively.

I know this condition, You know, that I know this condition. Also, why do you dismiss all the all the points concerning drain and how to manage it.

21 hours ago, Sace said:

Y'know that this is supposed to be Gauss' great advantage? Every marketing video showed him dashing across open world. DE basically hyped the players with that supposedly unreasonable expectation. Why would I want to dash over water when I have mostly disadvantages compared to just hopping into AW?

Just listen to you, you want a Frame that can beat a flying super jet with a teleport. How? Still, Gauss has an advantage in open worlds, as he can easely close the distance between wide spread enemy groups, without jumping into AW. This is what is shown in the trailer, not how fast he travels to opposite map border.

21 hours ago, Sace said:

With this you actually only have a 40m diameter

Didn't I say the same?

21 hours ago, Sace said:

CC only at initial cast, negligible damage and it even shrinks to useless ranges after cast. And pretty fast despite almost full duration build. 40m radius would actually be decent for a beefed up range build.

40 meters radius on hard CC is absurd. Furthermore, the ongoing CC effect would be less usefull than you might think, as with such range you would freeze enemies in ther spawns, effectively preventing new enemies from even entering the circle. As a founder, you should probably remember the birth of ability immune enemies as well as now common LoS restrictions due to map wide lockdowns - eg. Blind Mirage. So you are asking for something, that DE is removing from the game.

21 hours ago, Sace said:

I do, but what I am posting here for the n-th time now is that just using those skills whenever they are useful or beneficial at that moment without spamming them every ~1 second makes the battery drop below 80% easily.

If you want a Frame with broken map wide CC, 90% low effort DR with permanent uptime, some mobility and damage options - go play Nova. She litterally embraces the playstyle you want from Gauss.

 

21 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

The problem with discussing 169% Range builds or the like on Gauss is that Range is Gauss's dump stat: sure, if you build exclusively for Range at the expense of every other stat, Thermal Sunder's initial radius will become somewhat large (at the moment of cast, anyway), but then that Range isn't going to do much else for you.

I use Stretch + A. Reach atm: will test Overextended with negative PS later. 2 Slots is not a big invistment, certaincly not "at the expense of every other stat". Especially since Gauss is not focused on Strength. Range is only impprotatnt for his #3, but Thermal Sunder is Gauss' survivability, the only team support and utility. I am not saying Range should not be considered for his other abilities; I say, it is worth modding even if it only affects Thermal Sunder.

21 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

To top it all off, the biggest contribution from a Range-based Gauss is inferior in speed, efficiency, and range to that of Frost, which begs the question as to why one would even bother building Gauss that way.

I build my Gauss rather for personal survivabiltiy, not map wide CC with excessive Range values. Gauss is an agile and selfish DD Frame, not team support specialist like Frost.

21 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

Meanwhile, though, all of his other abilities benefit from Duration in some way, even with its weird anti-synergy with Redline's battery charge rate: because one of the strongest duration mods requires the player to sacrifice range, this effectively means that Gauss ends up being forced to choose between sacrificing either his only source of team utility, or the rest of his kit, a choice I don't think the player should ever be made to make.

While Duration is important, I would argue against min-maxing this stat. As per calculation on wiki, Redline cannot be maxed faster than 2/3 of its runtime. I tried a long duration set-up and quickly found out, it is not working for me. So, instead of going for big buffs, which are harder to get, I choose to go for smaller buffs with easy access. I would say, it ultimately comes down to personal preference, but there are people who look at stats, min-max them against personal plystyle or capabilities and wonder about subpar performance.

[Teridax68]

15 minutes ago, Gwyndolin-chan said:

Gauss goes fast, has DR, has CC, has a steroid buff.

Except going fast via abilities is irrelevant in most missions, DR is common as mud, his CC is weak and made worse by the way he's meant to be built, and his steroid as mentioned above is outdone by a frame who not only does it better for herself, but can apply it to her teammates. Steroids don't do anything, they just make you do what you do better, so in the end his only contribution of note to his team is crowd control, and not particularly good crowd control at that. That is ultimately the problem with a frame that is mostly steroids: when all you do is make yourself stronger, that's not going to translate to any sort of unique output, it just makes your same outputs stronger. 

Quote

It was a small rework. DE made small changes across the board, none of which changed the essence of Nezha's abilities. Yes, the final effect was dramatic, but no flavour was changed in the process.

The flavour may not have changed, but his gameplay certainly did. We're not talking about changing any frame's flavor here: I think Nezha's theme was excellent from the start, and Gauss's identity as a speedster frame I think is just as valid; it's just a question of how those themes are implemented in gameplay terms. Nezha's rework managed to make his theme feel legitimately good to play and generally viable, but the latter isn't yet something Gauss can claim.

Quote

And despite that, Nezha was still a unique frame even before the rework (of which I approve) -- Warding Halo had a stunning aura that was legitimately significant and provided status immunity which could be spread to allies via augment. Chakram still healed and allowed teleports, Fire Walker was still useful for laying down zone control, Spears was admittedly bad.

A 2-meter stagger radius is not "legitimately significant", and despite the difference in augments, Nezha's 3 and 4 were obvious clones of Rhino's 2 and 4 respectively. The fact that neither Blazing Chakram nor Firewalker were worth using prior to the rework only further reinforced the uncomfortable similarities, which is all the more why Nezha's rework aimed to unify his entire kit.

Quote

I'm not opposed to similar small adjustments being made to other frames that in summation are significant. But the thread is largely "rework Gauss completely, rip out the Battery mechanic, remove this or that ability, etc. etc." which is not at all in line with a small rework like Nezha's or Nyx's that enhance existing characteristics.

Except even you admit that Nezha's rework ultimately had significant consequences, and we have had plenty of even heavier reworks, like Saryn's, Limbo's, Mag's, etc. that were major improvements. Perhaps Gauss may not need a total overhaul to be brought where he needs to be, but I don't think we should limit ourselves here when analyzing what's wrong with him and how to address it.

Quote

Going fast is not Gauss's only claim to fame. UGH. None of those other frames' entire theme and kit revolve around going fast -- they go fast as an auxiliary ability. How often do Novas even use their portal? Gauss's theme and kit revolve around going fast in one direction, which is something that OP is clearly trying to change. Intrinsic to going fast is the steroid. The CC and DR are auxiliary to Gauss's main theme.

You're only proving my point here, though, because if "going fast" is not even strong enough a theme to justify designing an entire frame around it, then Gauss has a major problem, as going fast is the one strength where he stands out, among frames for whom going fast is but a secondary tool among many more powerful ones. I can agree with you that Gauss's method of going fast doesn't need to drastically change -- he should probably be able to strafe quickly too, but should ultimately have mostly linear rapid movement -- but you are here confirming what your opponents are saying, which is that Gauss doesn't actually stand out as much as you'd want him to, and so needs to be able to genuinely contribute to his team and not just be this ball of stats.

12 minutes ago, ShortCat said:

I use Stretch + A. Reach atm: will test Overextended with negative PS later. 2 Slots is not a big invistment, certaincly not "at the expense of every other stat". Especially since Gauss is not focused on Strength. Range is only impprotatnt for his #3, but Thermal Sunder is Gauss' survivability, the only team support and utility. I am not saying Range should not be considered for his other abilities; I say, it is worth modding even if it only affects Thermal Sunder.

2 slots is a significant investment when you have a total of 8 (let's be generous and say 10, with Exilus and Aura included) slots to choose from, and have other stats to build. You're also implicitly not equipping Narrow-Minded, which is of huge benefit to Gauss's almost exclusively Duration-based scaling. Thermal Sunder is in fact Gauss's only contribution to his team, but it is nonetheless mediocre, and meanwhile Kinetic Plating, not his 3, is his survivability. Even here, you are admitting that you are putting mods for basically just one ability, even though they don't benefit him elsewhere, which brings us back to the problematic choice I pointed out.

12 minutes ago, ShortCat said:

I build my Gauss rather for personal survivabiltiy, not map wide CC with excessive Range values. Gauss is an agile and selfish DD Frame, not team support specialist like Frost.

Okay, but that's precisely my point: it's okay to be self-sufficient, but it's not great for the game as a whole to have a truly selfish frame, i.e. one that offers no real opportunity for teammates to interact with them or vice-versa. If there were ways for Gauss to output decent CC or utility in ways that didn't require him to build against the entire rest of his kit, that'd be fab, but as it stands currently his only team-beneficial ability relies on a stat he's going to be dumping on to increase his Duration, essentially the only stat he scales with besides Efficiency.

12 minutes ago, ShortCat said:

While Duration is important, I would argue against min-maxing this stat. As per calculation on wiki, Redline cannot be maxed faster than 2/3 of its runtime. I tried a long duration set-up and quickly found out, it is not working for me. So, instead of going for big buffs, which are harder to get, I choose to go for smaller buffs with easy access. I would say, it ultimately comes down to personal preference, but there are people who look at stats, min-max them against personal plystyle or capabilities and wonder about subpar performance.

Indeed, Redline's battery growth scales inversely with Duration so that it always stays proportionate to the total duration, but even with that anti-scaling, Duration remains the best stat to build on Gauss, including for Redline, as despite the percentage uptime not scaling, more duration means fewer resets in-between casts, and a longer-lasting total buff nonetheless. This is of course without even bringing up Mach Rush, Kinetic Plating, or even Thermal Sunder, all of which benefit from Duration. This is arguably another problem with Gauss, in that building around his powers is extremely restrictive, due to how he scales with so few stats, and ultimately not very satisfying, because his optimal build has him downgrade his only source of utility.

Edited September 12, 2019 by Teridax68

[ShortCat]

26 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

Indeed, Redline's battery growth scales inversely with Duration so that it always stays proportionate to the total duration, but even with that anti-scaling, Duration remains the best stat to build on Gauss, including for Redline, as despite the percentage uptime not scaling, more duration means fewer resets in-between casts, and a longer-lasting total buff nonetheless

It has generous base Duration, so that even moderate values offer enough runtime. Resets in-between are meaningless, if you cannot manage upkeep from long duration builds, which is what people complain about. This is precisely the reason I do not run maxed Duration builds, and despite lower buffs I can still compete, becasue I have less troubles to charge my batetry to a higer value.

36 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

2 slots is a significant investment when you have a total of 8

I use 2 mods for Duration and 2 mods for Range. Since I do not need any Strength my build has 4.5 free slots for survivability + utility. And as mentioned, I did not have time to test him with negative Strength and more range via Overextended. This would free an addition slot. I repeatedly explained why I do not use Narrow Minded. I fail to see where this Range discussion is leading to? No matter what base Range Thermal Sunder had, it still would be low if you are that adamant on using NM.

53 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

it's okay to be self-sufficient, but it's not great for the game as a whole to have a truly selfish frame, i.e. one that offers no real opportunity for teammates to interact with them or vice-versa.

You are acting as if Gauss is the first and only selfish Frame in the game. What about Ash, Excal, Mesa, Mirage, Revanent, Saryn, Wukong. This list would be even longer if we exclude Augments. So what exactly is the complaint here?

1 hour ago, Teridax68 said:

If there were ways for Gauss to output decent CC or utility in ways that didn't require him to build against the entire rest of his kit, that'd be fab, but as it stands currently his only team-beneficial ability relies on a stat he's going to be dumping on to increase his Duration

This is only an issue, if you use Narrow Minded and do not counterbalance it. Blind Rage is important for Frames, which scale with Strength and reduces Efficiency, a stat just as important. This all runs down to personal modding choices.

[Teridax68]

1 hour ago, ShortCat said:

It has generous base Duration, so that even moderate values offer enough runtime. Resets in-between are meaningless, if you cannot manage upkeep from long duration builds, which is what people complain about. This is precisely the reason I do not run maxed Duration builds, and despite lower buffs I can still compete, becasue I have less troubles to charge my batetry to a higer value.

Except generous base Duration simply means the ability scales all the better with Duration, as the bonus provided is multiplicative to the base. Resets do matter, because they force a drain in Battery even when kept up consistently, irrespective of management skill. People complain about managing upkeep at any amount, because at high Duration the battery charge is too slow, but at low Duration the bonus resets before it can be appreciably used. Thus, going for lower Duration does not solve the issue.

1 hour ago, ShortCat said:

I use 2 mods for Duration and 2 mods for Range. Since I do not need any Strength my build has 4.5 free slots for survivability + utility. And as mentioned, I did not have time to test him with negative Strength and more range via Overextended. This would free an addition slot. I repeatedly explained why I do not use Narrow Minded. I fail to see where this Range discussion is leading to?

My point about Range is that Gauss is a frame with a single, team-beneficial ability that uses Range, and a whole rest of his kit that relies on Duration, in a game where maximizing Duration comes at a cost in Range. Thus, building him optimally, which involves maximizing Duration, comes at a cost to his only means of contributing to his team. The fact that you personally chose to go with some middling build that doesn't entirely capitalise on any of his abilities doesn't contradict this, nor does it invalidate the general player trend of going for more efficient builds that nonetheless happen to be more selfish.

 

1 hour ago, ShortCat said:

No matter what base Range Thermal Sunder had, it still would be low if you are that adamant on using NM.

This isn't really true; if Thermal Sunder had some really generous base range, reducing it with NM would make it much less bad, and increasing it with Range would possibly make it worthwhile, even if it still were the only ability to scale with it. As it stands, at neutral range Thermal Sunder isn't great to begin with, and with typical builds it only gets worse.

1 hour ago, ShortCat said:

You are acting as if Gauss is the first and only selfish Frame in the game. What about Ash, Excal, Mesa, Mirage, Revanent, Saryn, Wukong. This list would be even longer if we exclude Augments. So what exactly is the complaint here?

You've missed the point entirely: Gauss isn't exceptional in this regard, he is a further example of a trend that has already had negative repercussions on the game. Selfish frames are nothing new, which is why it should no longer be in question that when a frame presents no interaction with their team, Warframe's multiplayer itself loses from it. We shouldn't be throwing our arms up in the air just because selfish frames exist already, we should be acknowledging that it is far better when player avatars in a multiplayer game are capable of enabling actual multiplayer action, and applying that to Gauss, who currently brings essentially nothing to his team.

1 hour ago, ShortCat said:

This is only an issue, if you use Narrow Minded and do not counterbalance it. Blind Rage is important for Frames, which scale with Strength and reduces Efficiency, a stat just as important. This all runs down to personal modding choices.

Except Efficiency works for almost all abilities in the game, whereas Range has little to no effect at all on many abilities, as is the case for Gauss, so no, they're not equally important, Efficiency is much more broadly applicable, and thus often much more important (it certainly is on Gauss). It is thus generally more desirable to mod for Duration, Efficiency, and either sprint speed or survivability on Gauss than it is to build Range, especially if it's just to remediate the loss brought about by one mod affecting one ability.

[(XBOX)Knight Raime]

14 hours ago, Annnoth said:

Wisp? Outside of mach rush wisp has a speed boost, fire rate boost, huge stun that comes with a decent bit of extra damage, big regen + invisibility making her quite hard to kill, he own fairly fast movement ability.

She might not have an armor strip like gauss or do a couple of these things as powerfully as gauss since gauss is the best in his class for the fire rate boost and speed at least, but wisp can kinda acomplish preeety similar things with abilities that just play out differently. Rather, gauue is acomplishing things wisp has been doing.

Going extra fast is all gauss really has over other frames.

Wisp doesn't dps anywhere as hard as Gauss can because her boost doesn't include weapon swapping or reloading.  Even in terms of fire rate alone Gauss eclipses her in spades both here and in movement speed.  If Wisps buffs were really as great as people pretend them to be she'd be picked for world bosses.  She never is.

6 hours ago, 000l000 said:

Because Gauss does have a power that is supposed to help with his tankiness so why would we use anything else than his own kit ? Most people arguing here didn't even get OP's point, Gauss isn't bad nor lacking of efficiency by any means, he's just a complete design mess that seriously lacks of consistency and balance.

And i'm still wondering why people aren't utterly disappointed by his awfully designed synergies cause getting a dozen seconds buffs every minute isn't interesting at all gameplay wise especially since player doesn't choose when he'll get the buff - You're just getting it after your stupid redline meter automatically reaches 100%. As i said previously, no one cares about a buff you can't activate at will, it's just bad design - i'm waiting for 40s to get this synergy and what ? enemies are gone, dead, round is finished, i have to go to the next point etc. This has to change cause it's not working at all ingame. If i really need to use that awfully expensive kinetic plating along with Redline at 100% i can't even choose the right time, and if i'm using kinetic plating to save my arse then i'm totally ruining my redline progress and have to start it all over again...

Arguing if Gauss can survive or kill isn't helping cause all frames can survive or kill - but design consistency, balance and ressource management are definitely what we should discuss about, especially since Gauss is a brand new frame - and an overcomplicated one.

Uh, because even tank frames use mods to beef up their tanking capabilities.  He's not a design mess in any factual manner either.  And most of this is just fluff that is generalized to make it sound like you have knowledge of the kit when you really, really don't.  By that logic in regards to time for his buff we could say Harrow is equally bad design wise since his usefulness is entirely team comp based.  And if you're running most meta setups Harrow doesn't have a place there.

4 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

Except going fast via abilities is irrelevant in most missions, DR is common as mud, his CC is weak and made worse by the way he's meant to be built, and his steroid as mentioned above is outdone by a frame who not only does it better for herself, but can apply it to her teammates. Steroids don't do anything, they just make you do what you do better, so in the end his only contribution of note to his team is crowd control, and not particularly good crowd control at that. That is ultimately the problem with a frame that is mostly steroids: when all you do is make yourself stronger, that's not going to translate to any sort of unique output, it just makes your same outputs stronger. 

Wrong, Gauss's dps capabilities are not done better by Wisp.  Gauss's rate of fire buff far exceeds Wisps.  And his also comes with reload speed and swap speed.  even without vigarus swap and arcane rage he completely out does Wisp in terms of dps.  Yes, her buffs applying to the team is nice.  Not really a selling point though.  There are far better team buffers than Wisp.  Gauss is capable of out dpsing damage buffer frames on world bosses who run your typical rubico prime setup without even using swap and rage with a simple dikyu bow.  So, in terms of actual team synergy/effects yes, Gauss brings nothing.  But if we're talking about straight up killing world bosses Gauss absolutely fits in a team comp.

4 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

 

You're only proving my point here, though, because if "going fast" is not even strong enough a theme to justify designing an entire frame around it, then Gauss has a major problem, as going fast is the one strength where he stands out, among frames for whom going fast is but a secondary tool among many more powerful ones. I can agree with you that Gauss's method of going fast doesn't need to drastically change -- he should probably be able to strafe quickly too, but should ultimately have mostly linear rapid movement -- but you are here confirming what your opponents are saying, which is that Gauss doesn't actually stand out as much as you'd want him to, and so needs to be able to genuinely contribute to his team and not just be this ball of stats.

Considering killing/completing missions in a timely factor is hugely important when it comes to being efficient for a game that's all about grinding out resources building a frame that's meant to be fast is absolutely something worth making a frame out of.

4 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

 

Okay, but that's precisely my point: it's okay to be self-sufficient, but it's not great for the game as a whole to have a truly selfish frame, i.e. one that offers no real opportunity for teammates to interact with them or vice-versa. If there were ways for Gauss to output decent CC or utility in ways that didn't require him to build against the entire rest of his kit, that'd be fab, but as it stands currently his only team-beneficial ability relies on a stat he's going to be dumping on to increase his Duration, essentially the only stat he scales with besides Efficiency.

People honestly harp on the whole "team synergy" or "bringing something to the team" thing a bit too much.  As much as i'd LOVE warframe to be a game about actual team play and warframe synergies were not only plentiful be front and center with actual roles in missions for people it's simply not what warframe is.  Going solo has always been the correct and most efficient way to complete something ever since the void exploded.  It's only when you consider farming something of any kind where other players are ever considered and this is entirely based on the fact that more players equals more enemies.  Not because farming with multiple people around actually means you farm things more efficiently.

Like it or not the game is currently based around being self sufficient and damage is king.  So while Gauss might not bring any traditional team based benefits he brings himself as a BFG that means he has a value in a team comp for world bosses.  Which is an end game/meta activity.

4 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

Indeed, Redline's battery growth scales inversely with Duration so that it always stays proportionate to the total duration, but even with that anti-scaling, Duration remains the best stat to build on Gauss, including for Redline, as despite the percentage uptime not scaling, more duration means fewer resets in-between casts, and a longer-lasting total buff nonetheless. This is of course without even bringing up Mach Rush, Kinetic Plating, or even Thermal Sunder, all of which benefit from Duration. This is arguably another problem with Gauss, in that building around his powers is extremely restrictive, due to how he scales with so few stats, and ultimately not very satisfying, because his optimal build has him downgrade his only source of utility.

I disagree with this.  Having a higher duration means you essentially have a bigger battery.  Which is important to his kit and why it takes longer to fill up.  You see if you're managing your battery well your redline % fills faster.  Having good management also means as this % climbs higher the passive drain from redline and kinetic plating is far less penalizing when you're not moving.  sprinting around (which you're considered to be sprinting around when you hold the sprint key during jumps/bullet jumps, and aim gliding) is already enough to counter act the passive drain from either ability.  But with better battery management  you even build battery.

Opting for a shorter duration does lead to bigger spikes in performance.  But there is also less build up time.  So it's like the guy said.  It's preference.  Yes, the optimal way of building Gauss for open world bosses does force high duration.  But then again there are several frames that are considered to be strong or meta that overly emphasize on one or two stats and sometimes even dumping another stat.  In Gauss's case I don't believe this to be a design flaw.  Since his 3 is his only ability that really suffers it would be more accurate to say that his 3 is flawed here over his kit/stat distribution.  His optimal setup is entirely dictated by what you're going for.  In the case of building around his 3 that makes you compete with speed clear frames for things like exterm and capture.  imo there are 3 styles of play for him.  The general setup which works for any mission based content.  Any frame does this at the cost of not being strong with anything they do.  The speed clear setup as I just mentioned.  And the world boss setup which is the one that revolves around high duration.

 

I don't think there is an inherent design flaw with Gauss.  But I do believe he can be adjusted a little bit to feel more smooth for others.  While he does have some issues I think the backlash here really is more of a personal nature than a factual one here.