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Gauss is a design trainwreck - absolute intrakit dependency, ridiculously arbitrary limitations, not a shred of team utility of any kind

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3 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

Except generous base Duration simply means the ability scales all the better with Duration, as the bonus provided is multiplicative to the base. Resets do matter, because they force a drain in Battery even when kept up consistently, irrespective of management skill. People complain about managing upkeep at any amount, because at high Duration the battery charge is too slow, but at low Duration the bonus resets before it can be appreciably used. Thus, going for lower Duration does not solve the issue.

It is pointless to go for full duration, if you cannot reach high Redline values. Half charged Redline with 300% duration offers the same buffs as fully charged Redline with 150% Duration. Regardless of Duration, you get maxed charge rate, if you use Mach Rush twice consecutively. Afterwards it is enough to keep running to reach 100% Redline. Duration functions as a mirror for the time frame to remain mobile. As such, lower Duration can help, because you can adjust buffs to your playstyle.

3 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

Except Efficiency works for almost all abilities in the game, whereas Range has little to no effect at all on many abilities, as is the case for Gauss, so no, they're not equally important,

I ment Blind Range on other Frames, not Gauss, it stands right there. My point was, that people managed to mod around Blind Rage and other Corrupted mods for years.

3 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

My point about Range is that Gauss is a frame with a single, team-beneficial ability that uses Range, and a whole rest of his kit that relies on Duration, in a game where maximizing Duration comes at a cost in Range. Thus, building him optimally, which involves maximizing Duration, comes at a cost to his only means of contributing to his team. The fact that you personally chose to go with some middling build that doesn't entirely capitalise on any of his abilities doesn't contradict this, nor does it invalidate the general player trend of going for more efficient builds that nonetheless happen to be more selfish.

3 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

You've missed the point entirely: Gauss isn't exceptional in this regard, he is a further example of a trend that has already had negative repercussions on the game. Selfish frames are nothing new, which is why it should no longer be in question that when a frame presents no interaction with their team, Warframe's multiplayer itself loses from it. We shouldn't be throwing our arms up in the air just because selfish frames exist already, we should be acknowledging that it is far better when player avatars in a multiplayer game are capable of enabling actual multiplayer action, and applying that to Gauss, who currently brings essentially nothing to his team.

I got your point the first time, it is just that I disagree with it. Gauss is not ment to be an active support Frame, at least not from his current kit. Thermal Sunder is more of a personal "oh snap" button and an additional battery source. The idea of a min-maxed killing mashine with unrestricted access to all the other toys sounds like you want to have your cake and eat it too. This view clashes directly with how modding works, namely that you have to make decisions and compromises.
As soon as 2 Frames show any form of interplay, the game breaks. You are reacheing for the stars. This is not the right place to discuss multiplayer ideals.

 

Edited by ShortCat

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16 minutes ago, ShortCat said:

It is pointless to go for full duration, if you cannot reach high Redline values. Half charged Redline with 300% duration offers the same buffs as fully charged Redline with 150% Duration. Regardless of Duration, you get maxed charge rate, if you use Mach Rush twice consecutively. Afterwards it is enough to keep running to reach 100% Redline. Duration functions as a mirror for the time frame to remain mobile. As such, lower Duration can help, because you can adjust buffs to your playstyle.

The buffs depend on the battery level rather than Redline's % counter, so that's not true.

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4 minutes ago, vFlitz said:

The buffs depend on the battery level rather than Redline's % counter, so that's not true.

indeed, how did I miss that.

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1 hour ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

Wisp doesn't dps anywhere as hard as Gauss can because her boost doesn't include weapon swapping or reloading.  Even in terms of fire rate alone Gauss eclipses her in spades both here and in movement speed.  If Wisps buffs were really as great as people pretend them to be she'd be picked for world bosses. 

 

I did say exactly that already. Gauss is best in class for his speed buffs and movement speed. However i brought it up in response to the statement "no one does what gauss does as cohesively". I was completely ignoring power comparisons because thats a whole other argument. I do feel youre overvaluing the swap speed and reload a bit much, most useful weapon in the game reload more than quick enough at base anyways and if youre trying to bring up the swap damage mod, it provides more than enough swap speed. Warframe isnt the kind of game where .5-1 second differences matter.

Also, when you mention world bosses do you mean eidolons? Cause if so why even bring that up since no one would bring gauss to those either. Gauss has no support and outside of his buffs from redline nothing actually works against them.

Besides just because a buff is good doesnt mean itll be used litterally everywhere. Eidolon hunts dont really need them. Fire rate is quite nice sure but with a chroma/volt you already do a ton of damage so youd benefit more from having a better support for a different job like harrow.

The health buff is pretty meh for the frames themselves since youre already running trinity reguardless or potentially oberon in place of harrow since he can achieve similar survivability to wisp but has the primary job of stopping the mag scream on top. He also has a rad damage buff which is crazy! Really the primary challenges are things wisp doesnt help with in standard comps, this doesnt mean they arent good buffs anywhere else.

 

Edited by Annnoth
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2 minutes ago, Annnoth said:

I did say exactly that already. Gauss is best in class for his speed buffs and movement speed. However i brought it up in response to the statement "no one does what gauss does as cohesively". I was completely ignoring power comparisons because thats a whole other argument. I do feel youre overvaluing the swap speed and reload a bit much, most useful weapon in the game reload more than quick enough at base anyways and if youre trying to bring up the swap damage mod, it provides more than enough swap speed. Warframe isnt the kind of game where .5-1 second differences matter.

If you were strictly trying to say there are other similar frames in terms of speed plus buffs then okay.  But the impression I got was that said frames are comparable in terms of value as Gauss is a league of his own in terms of dps.  I'm really not.  If you take a high strength wisp with a dikyu or rubico prime and take a high duration gauss with the same two weapons Gauss out dps's wisp hard because reload speed and fire rate both dramatically effect your bow shot up time.  and you build and sustain that combo counter on the sniper faster and longer than wisp does.  And this comparison doesn't even need to be wisp.  You can take actual weapon buffer frames and out dps them.  The swap speed is really less about switching to keep up the bullets flying out and more about being able to proc that viagrous swap buff as quickly as possible to get back to shooting.

Warframe is a numbers game.  If you're arguing theoretical DPS output every second/milisecond absolutely counts.  Both for world bosses and for enemies that go beyond DE's balancing (aka endurance runs.)  Yes, if all you plan to do is standard tileset/star chart activities then wisp is more than enough.  but so is basically any other frame.  My point is Gauss's capabilities exceed wisp's so hard that he actually can function as a main dps unit for world bosses.  Where as wisp does not have any place in end game comp setups.  So while sure they have "comparable" functions in content that actually matters to end game players Gauss>wisp.

2 minutes ago, Annnoth said:

Also, when you mention world bosses do you mean eidolons? Cause if so why even bring that up since no one would bring gauss to those either. Gauss has no support and outside of his buffs from redline nothing actually works against them.

Because Tridelons and profit taker are end game activities where setups both for the individual and for teams actually matters.

2 minutes ago, Annnoth said:

Besides just because a buff is good doesnt mean itll be used litterally everywhere. Eidolon hunts dont really need them. Fire rate is quite nice sure but with a chroma/volt you already do a ton of damage so youd benefit more from having a better support for a different job like harrow.

Gauss out damage's chroma and volt with his world boss hunting setup.  Chroma doesn't bring anything to his team and volt brings his shield.  Which does boost team DPS.  But Gauss can 2 shot limbs without that.  So when you can have a single frame doing the entire job of DPSing the boss volt's inclusion isn't really needed.  Also who you bring as a buffer entirely depends on the mod setup of the comp.  If your team goes full elemental with no duration then chroma's buff is better.  But if you use serration than rhino's buff is better.  Harrow doesn't belong in world bosses because he needs trash in order to do pretty much anything of value and trash isn't big in tridelon fights.  More on profit taker but you can cull the amount of adds by destroying those corpus becons.  If you take harrow for team upkeep oberon and trinity are better.  If you take Harrow for dps then octavia is better.

2 minutes ago, Annnoth said:

The health buff is pretty meh for the frames themselves since youre already running trinity reguardless or potentially oberon since he can achieve similar survivability to wisp but has the primary job of stopping the mag scream. Really the primary challenges are things wisp doesnt help with in standard comps, this doesnt mean they arent good buffs anywhere else.

 

And as I mentioned before.  Outside of world bosses anything is equally viable.  You can't even call arbitrations or sorties end game content anymore with the amount of mods/arcanes that make self sustain easy.  Hell even world bosses are easily soloable by a number of frames.  Even Gauss.

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37 minutes ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

If you were strictly trying to say there are other similar frames in terms of speed plus buffs then okay.  But the impression I got was that said frames are comparable in terms of value as Gauss is a league of his own in terms of dps.  I'm really not.  If you take a high strength wisp with a dikyu or rubico prime and take a high duration gauss with the same two weapons Gauss out dps's wisp hard because reload speed and fire rate both dramatically effect your bow shot up time.  and you build and sustain that combo counter on the sniper faster and longer than wisp does.  And this comparison doesn't even need to be wisp.  You can take actual weapon buffer frames and out dps them.  The swap speed is really less about switching to keep up the bullets flying out and more about being able to proc that viagrous swap buff as quickly as possible to get back to shooting.

Warframe is a numbers game.  If you're arguing theoretical DPS output every second/milisecond absolutely counts.  Both for world bosses and for enemies that go beyond DE's balancing (aka endurance runs.)  Yes, if all you plan to do is standard tileset/star chart activities then wisp is more than enough.  but so is basically any other frame.  My point is Gauss's capabilities exceed wisp's so hard that he actually can function as a main dps unit for world bosses.  Where as wisp does not have any place in end game comp setups.  So while sure they have "comparable" functions in content that actually matters to end game players Gauss>wisp.

Because Tridelons and profit taker are end game activities where setups both for the individual and for teams actually matters.

Gauss out damage's chroma and volt with his world boss hunting setup.  Chroma doesn't bring anything to his team and volt brings his shield.  Which does boost team DPS.  But Gauss can 2 shot limbs without that.  So when you can have a single frame doing the entire job of DPSing the boss volt's inclusion isn't really needed.  Also who you bring as a buffer entirely depends on the mod setup of the comp.  If your team goes full elemental with no duration then chroma's buff is better.  But if you use serration than rhino's buff is better.  Harrow doesn't belong in world bosses because he needs trash in order to do pretty much anything of value and trash isn't big in tridelon fights.  More on profit taker but you can cull the amount of adds by destroying those corpus becons.  If you take harrow for team upkeep oberon and trinity are better.  If you take Harrow for dps then octavia is better.

And as I mentioned before.  Outside of world bosses anything is equally viable.  You can't even call arbitrations or sorties end game content anymore with the amount of mods/arcanes that make self sustain easy.  Hell even world bosses are easily soloable by a number of frames.  Even Gauss.

Im actually kinda confused now. I could get that gauss has high dps because he has high fire rate buffs so he gets more bullets out faster, but then you say he can 2 shot limbs? How? Did i miss something huge with him cause as far as im aware the only damage bonus he has is 100% additive melee damage. So to my knowledge a frame with no direct bonus damage but can shoot like 180% faster kill a limb in less shots than a frame with a 500+% additive damage bonus? 

Also chroma doesnt bring anything? Im confused since a few lines down you do bring up chromas damage buff excelling in a certain situation. Even at face value he has a huge additive damage boost to share with allies.

Also im aware PT and eidolons are the closest thing to end-game we have however its such a narrow part of the game that 80% of frames and 95% of weapons dont fill and is a more niche aspect to the game since PT can be a giant PITA and not everyone likes eidolons.

So knowing youre just coming from the perspective of eidolons, i guess ill just leave it there. I had my solid time with eidolons but to me they just dont exist really, its too limiting and dull for me so I like to compare frames to the broader game where you have way more options for places where specific frames are more practical than others.

Edited by Annnoth

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6 minutes ago, Annnoth said:

Im actually kinda confused now. I could get that gauss has high dps because he has high fire rate buffs so he gets more bullets out faster, but then you say he can 2 shot limbs? How? Did i miss something huge with him cause as far as im aware the only damage bonus he has is 100% additive melee damage. So to my knowledge a frame with no direct bonus damage but can shoot like 180% faster kill a limb in less shots than a frame with a 500+% additive damage bonus?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=osob0SqEYKc

it's mainly modding for the dikyu with buff from other frames.  I'd recommend watching it to get a better understanding.  Gauss can suplement his own lack of a damage buff with vigarous swap and arcane rage though.  I can link you someone soloing profit taker with Gauss using those setups if you like.

6 minutes ago, Annnoth said:

Also chroma doesnt bring anything? Im confused since a few lines down you do bring up chromas damage buff excelling in a certain situation. Even at face value he has a huge additive damage boost to share with allies.

What I meant was if you are bringing Chroma to be a damage dealer aka his optimal setup he doesn't bring anything because he has to forgo range and squeak out as much power as possible.  You can absolutely bring him as a team buffer.  But it wouldn't be optimal.  A better team buffer would be rhino.

6 minutes ago, Annnoth said:

Also im aware PT and eidolons are the closest thing to end-game we have however its such a narrow part of the game that 80% of frames and 95% of weapons dont fill and is a more niche aspect to the game since PT can be a giant PITA and not everyone likes eidolons.

Right my point overall is that Gauss has a place in meta/end game content where as frames that he's compared to (aka harrow and wisp) do not.  The only frame I can think of that offers speed and buffs to his team that does have a place in comp is volt.  But his speed plays much less of a factor there and Gauss can DPS for the team.

6 minutes ago, Annnoth said:

So knowing youre just coming from the perspective of eidolons, i guess ill just leave it there. I had my solid time with eidolons but to me they just dont exist really, its too limiting and dull for me so I like to compare frames to the broader game where you have way more options for places where specific frames are more practical than others.

I also do not really do eidilon content or PT.  I was merely just making a point.

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The main purpose of Volt's shield in Eidolon fights is to buff amp damage.

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21 hours ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

Wrong, Gauss's dps capabilities are not done better by Wisp.  Gauss's rate of fire buff far exceeds Wisps.

Wrong, Gauss's steroid isn't affected by Power Strength, whereas Wisp's is, exceeding his fire rate buff past 250% total Power Strength and his attack rate buff past 225% total PS, which is easily and routinely achievable.

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  And his also comes with reload speed and swap speed.  even without vigarus swap and arcane rage he completely out does Wisp in terms of dps. 

And Wisp's Haste mote comes with extra movement speed, arguably a better bonus than the latter two combined. Even if Gauss did have a stronger numerical buff somehow (which he demonstrably doesn't), I fail to see how he surpasses Wisp, let alone "completely out does [sic]" her, as she has a nuke ability to boot, whereas he only has his Redline steroid, which is itself much less accessible at full power.

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Yes, her buffs applying to the team is nice.  Not really a selling point though.  There are far better team buffers than Wisp.

If Wisp's buff is better than Gauss's even when only on herself, and can be applied to her whole team, yet doesn't even qualify as impressive enough compared to other frames, what exactly does that say about Gauss? You are only proving my point here.

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 Gauss is capable of out dpsing damage buffer frames on world bosses who run your typical rubico prime setup without even using swap and rage with a simple dikyu bow.  So, in terms of actual team synergy/effects yes, Gauss brings nothing.  But if we're talking about straight up killing world bosses Gauss absolutely fits in a team comp.

How? Where? By your own accidental admission, he doesn't even hold up one-on-one to a frame whose buffing capabilities aren't even considered especially impressive. Where exactly is Gauss outperforming the likes of Chroma or Rhino? It makes no mathematical sense, either, because once again, their own DPS buffs are numerically far superior to his.

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Considering killing/completing missions in a timely factor is hugely important when it comes to being efficient for a game that's all about grinding out resources building a frame that's meant to be fast is absolutely something worth making a frame out of.

And how exactly is Gauss going to meaningfully improve that, pray tell? His movement speed boost is the worst-suited for the interior tilesets that make up most of our missions, and otherwise there are plenty more frames that kill enemies much faster than he does. If he were the absolute best at going fast through missions, that would perhaps give him more of a leg to stand on, but as it stands he's not even the best frame for speedrunning regular missions, ironically enough.

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People honestly harp on the whole "team synergy" or "bringing something to the team" thing a bit too much.  As much as i'd LOVE warframe to be a game about actual team play and warframe synergies were not only plentiful be front and center with actual roles in missions for people it's simply not what warframe is.  Going solo has always been the correct and most efficient way to complete something ever since the void exploded.

I think the problem here isn't that team play isn't something what Warframe is, it's just not something that interests you, because you personally are fixated on solo play. I fail to see how solo play "has always been the correct and most efficient way to complete something" when Endless missions completely disprove this, and even non-Endless missions are frequently either faster to complete in groups, or simply equally good whether the player is playing solo or in a team. The only time Solo ever becomes possibly the more efficient option is if the player is running an unfamiliar Spy mission, e.g. in the Corpus Gas City, Grineer Sealab, or Kuva Fortress tilesets.

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 It's only when you consider farming something of any kind where other players are ever considered and this is entirely based on the fact that more players equals more enemies.  Not because farming with multiple people around actually means you farm things more efficiently.

Did you not literally say one paragraph above that Warframe is "a game that's all about grinding out resources"? So what is the truth?

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Like it or not the game is currently based around being self sufficient and damage is king.  So while Gauss might not bring any traditional team based benefits he brings himself as a BFG that means he has a value in a team comp for world bosses.  Which is an end game/meta activity.

But damage is something almost everyone brings, and he's nowhere near the best at it, so if that's meant to be his contribution... why exactly would anyone pick him, again? The game is currently based around being self-sufficient in the sense that players are expected to bring survivable frames, due to the amount of enemy burst damage in higher levels, and because everything in the game is currently based around killing crowds of enemies as fast as possible, nukes reign supreme, but that doesn't mean the game should be like this for all time, nor does this diminish the value of utility: armor shreds, damage buffs, burst healing, immobilizing/slowing CC and the like are all still valuable, and can allow even selfish effects to produce interaction with one's teammates. Gauss himself has crowd control, it just sucks, which is a shame.

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I disagree with this.  Having a higher duration means you essentially have a bigger battery.  Which is important to his kit and why it takes longer to fill up.  You see if you're managing your battery well your redline % fills faster.  Having good management also means as this % climbs higher the passive drain from redline and kinetic plating is far less penalizing when you're not moving.  sprinting around (which you're considered to be sprinting around when you hold the sprint key during jumps/bullet jumps, and aim gliding) is already enough to counter act the passive drain from either ability.  But with better battery management  you even build battery.

Your argument here brings absolutely nothing new to the discussion, as it has already been explained that Duration does make Redline's bonus Battery charge scale slower, but still does not prevent Duration from being the best stat to build, as it makes Redline more consistent and longer-lasting, while also benefiting the rest of Gauss's kit. He does take longer to charge his Battery, but the proportion of time spent fully charged remains the same, with fewer resets, which also means Gauss gets to benefit from more consistent periods of full charge. Thus, Duration is at worst neutral on Redline if you choose to ignore its usual benefits to the buff's duration.

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Opting for a shorter duration does lead to bigger spikes in performance.  But there is also less build up time.  So it's like the guy said.  It's preference.

There is less build-up time, but there is also a much shorter payoff, and even at neutral or moderate Duration, the forcibly limited window of full charge has been largely criticized as too short to make full use of. Meanwhile, at longer Duration amounts there is more time to make use of the bonus consistently before the reset, so while there is a question of preference between faster charging and longer buffs, the fact remains that Duration still has a more positive effect overall on Redline.

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Yes, the optimal way of building Gauss for open world bosses does force high duration.  But then again there are several frames that are considered to be strong or meta that overly emphasize on one or two stats and sometimes even dumping another stat.  In Gauss's case I don't believe this to be a design flaw.

One can have an entirely separate discussion on whether it's good design for optimal builds to render certain abilities unusably bad, but with Gauss, the specific criticism isn't simply that his optimal build makes his 3 terrible, but that his 3 just so happens to be the only ability that lets him help his team out in some form. If he were structured differently so that building optimally would let his CC/utility remain decent but dump on another of his abilities, that would perhaps not be ideal still, but at least it would be better, because Gauss wouldn't be such a selfish frame then (though his team contribution would still be quite weak).

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 Since his 3 is his only ability that really suffers it would be more accurate to say that his 3 is flawed here over his kit/stat distribution.  His optimal setup is entirely dictated by what you're going for.  In the case of building around his 3 that makes you compete with speed clear frames for things like exterm and capture.  imo there are 3 styles of play for him.  The general setup which works for any mission based content.  Any frame does this at the cost of not being strong with anything they do.  The speed clear setup as I just mentioned.  And the world boss setup which is the one that revolves around high duration.

Optimal setups are by definition not dictated by personal preference. It is rather obvious that Duration is optimal to build on Gauss over Range, and building around his 3 still makes for an ability that's far weaker than Frost's Avalanche. One can talk about frames that have narrow build options, but with Gauss a large part of the problem comes from the fact that there's so much in his kit that scales with nothing at all, namely Redline: if the ability and/or Mach Rush's speed scaled with Strength, that would at least offer a different build direction, but as it stands Duration is the only thing that changes Gauss's 4 at all (Strength isn't worth building for its piddly projectile damage). Thus, while there's perhaps some choice to be had between survivability for high-level missions or sprint speed for open world content, there isn't really an optimal build that doesn't dump on his CC.

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I don't think there is an inherent design flaw with Gauss.  But I do believe he can be adjusted a little bit to feel more smooth for others.  While he does have some issues I think the backlash here really is more of a personal nature than a factual one here.

While I can agree that some specific bits of feedback may stem from unfamiliarity with Gauss, there's been a vast amount of consistent feedback given already, with plenty of supporting evidence when it comes to that. To dismiss all of that as "personal", simply because you personally disagree with it, suggests that it's not everyone else but you who's lacking perspective here, particularly since when it comes to being factual, you have been proven mathematically wrong in spite of your own insistence.

If there is common ground to be had, it's that I too think Gauss could be easily and significantly improved without requiring vast amounts of additional work, though I wouldn't believe that alone would fix everything about him. For example:

  • Letting Gauss damage enemies while running directly into them with Mach Rush, which should also charge up his battery (this was suggested by Gwyndolin-chan).
  • Moving the Redline bonuses from Thermal Sunder directly onto the base effect, and having the AoE travel out based on Duration, a la Nova's Antimatter Drop, rather than be based on Range.
  • Removing Redline's anti-scaling with Duration by having its battery always charge up at the same rate.
  • Letting Redline's steroids and Mach Rush's speed both scale with Power Strength, in addition to their current effects.
20 hours ago, ShortCat said:

It is pointless to go for full duration, if you cannot reach high Redline values. Half charged Redline with 300% duration offers the same buffs as fully charged Redline with 150% Duration. Regardless of Duration, you get maxed charge rate, if you use Mach Rush twice consecutively. Afterwards it is enough to keep running to reach 100% Redline. Duration functions as a mirror for the time frame to remain mobile. As such, lower Duration can help, because you can adjust buffs to your playstyle.

So I know that you've crossed this out because another player corrected you already, but just to stress this bit, you've been arguing based on a fundamental misunderstanding of Gauss's mechanics. It is therefore correct to say that higher Duration is better for Gauss.

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I ment Blind Range on other Frames, not Gauss, it stands right there. My point was, that people managed to mod around Blind Rage and other Corrupted mods for years.

I fail to see how that answers anything I've said on the matter: people build around Blind Rage because Efficiency is always desirable regardless, which means that people will still be modding for it even when also sacrificing it for more Strength. Meanwhile, Range is not as universally desirable a stat, because many abilities either scale poorly with it or not at all. Gauss is a good example of a kit that overall doesn't scale well with Range, even though he scales significantly with Duration, which is why he's encouraged to dump on the former in favor of the latter, even if it comes at the cost of his 3.

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I got your point the first time, it is just that I disagree with it. Gauss is not ment to be an active support Frame, at least not from his current kit.

The fact that you say this shows you have understood the point even less than I initially believed: I'm in absolutely no way asking for Gauss to be turned into "an active support frame" in the same vein as Trinity, Harrow, or the like, I'm merely asking for him to have more interplay with his team, which is a common and easily achievable characteristic for frames that can be done with something as simple as a CC effect or a utilitarian status proc, e.g. Corrosive or Viral. If even the slightest team-beneficial effect on a frame's kit is enough for you to label them a support, then yeah, I guess every warframe in the game should be a support to varying extents, and if you don't like that kind of standard, that's your own problem, one countered by ample evidence of frames that manage to be perfectly self-sufficient while still a credit to their team (e.g. Rhino).

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Thermal Sunder is more of a personal "oh snap" button and an additional battery source.

An "oh snap" button? Are you sure about that? Because the ability requires two full casts to freeze enemies outside of an overcharged Redline, has insufficient range to stop most enemies fighting him, and doesn't protect him nearly as much as Kinetic Plating's DR steroid. It's not even that great at charging his battery, certainly not compared to Mach Rush.

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The idea of a min-maxed killing mashine with unrestricted access to all the other toys sounds like you want to have your cake and eat it too. This view clashes directly with how modding works, namely that you have to make decisions and compromises.

And why not? Plenty of frames, especially more modern ones, don't need to render entire abilities useless just to make use of the better bits of their kit, and there is a fundamental difference between toning down power on some abilities to benefit others, and killing off those abilities entirely. Even if Gauss were able to CC enemies properly in addition to his current capabilities, I'm not sure if he'd even be on par with most other frames, let alone overpowered.

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As soon as 2 Frames show any form of interplay, the game breaks. You are reacheing for the stars. This is not the right place to discuss multiplayer ideals.

This is perhaps one of the most galaxy-brained claims I've ever seen on these forums. Clearly, the feedback forum for a multiplayer game is not the right place to discuss multiplayer mechanics, and it's apparently "reacheing [sic] for the stars" to ask for something as basic as for Gauss's preexisting CC and armor reduction (because he has that too somewhere in his kit) to not be crap. Apparently, the game also breaks as soon as two frames interact with each other, as is famously the case with... um... hmm. You might want to back up what you're saying here if you want to be believed, particularly as I feel it's reasonable not to take your word for anything when your claims are this outrageous, and haven demonstrably not always corresponded with reality.

Edited by Teridax68
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3 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

Wrong, Gauss's steroid isn't affected by Power Strength, whereas Wisp's is, exceeding his fire rate buff past 250% total Power Strength and his attack rate buff past 225% total PS, which is easily and routinely achievable.

And Gauss's buffs are effected by duration so i'm not sure why you're making the distinction.  I don't run a max strength wisp and I don't have access to Gauss yet.  So even if her rate of fire manages to exceed his because he has a reload speed buff that means his dps is going to be higher than hers.

3 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

And Wisp's Haste mote comes with extra movement speed, arguably a better bonus than the latter two combined. Even if Gauss did have a stronger numerical buff somehow (which he demonstrably doesn't), I fail to see how he surpasses Wisp, let alone "completely out does [sic]" her, as she has a nuke ability to boot, whereas he only has his Redline steroid, which is itself much less accessible at full power.

As I said.  rate of fire+ reload speed means better dps than her with only rate of fire buff.  Her 4 is hardly a nuke.  

3 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

If Wisp's buff is better than Gauss's even when only on herself, and can be applied to her whole team, yet doesn't even qualify as impressive enough compared to other frames, what exactly does that say about Gauss? You are only proving my point here.

Nah i'm not really.  Her's isn't better. 

3 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

How? Where? By your own accidental admission, he doesn't even hold up one-on-one to a frame whose buffing capabilities aren't even considered especially impressive. Where exactly is Gauss outperforming the likes of Chroma or Rhino? It makes no mathematical sense, either, because once again, their own DPS buffs are numerically far superior to his.

Video I gave someone else above your response to me.  Look at it.

3 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

And how exactly is Gauss going to meaningfully improve that, pray tell? His movement speed boost is the worst-suited for the interior tilesets that make up most of our missions, and otherwise there are plenty more frames that kill enemies much faster than he does. If he were the absolute best at going fast through missions, that would perhaps give him more of a leg to stand on, but as it stands he's not even the best frame for speedrunning regular missions, ironically enough.

dashing through the map with taps and nuking with his fire cast on thermal sunder.  Didn't say he was the absolute best at it.  Just saying it's something he's good at.

3 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

I think the problem here isn't that team play isn't something what Warframe is, it's just not something that interests you, because you personally are fixated on solo play. I fail to see how solo play "has always been the correct and most efficient way to complete something" when Endless missions completely disprove this, and even non-Endless missions are frequently either faster to complete in groups, or simply equally good whether the player is playing solo or in a team. The only time Solo ever becomes possibly the more efficient option is if the player is running an unfamiliar Spy mission, e.g. in the Corpus Gas City, Grineer Sealab, or Kuva Fortress tilesets.

Nah.  Good try though.  I've stated my stance more than once what I consider to be team based play in several other threads.  and what you are quoting gives detail to that too.  I do also mention that solo is efficient when it comes to straight completion.  If you're going to actually respond to my stuff try not cherry picking my statements.  It doesn't make me want to continue discussing with you.  If you're playing endless missions it's the same time to extract every single time.  having more players in an endless does not make the rounds go faster.

3 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

Did you not literally say one paragraph above that Warframe is "a game that's all about grinding out resources"? So what is the truth?

I'm not exactly sure what's confusing you.

3 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

But damage is something almost everyone brings, and he's nowhere near the best at it, so if that's meant to be his contribution... why exactly would anyone pick him, again? The game is currently based around being self-sufficient in the sense that players are expected to bring survivable frames, due to the amount of enemy burst damage in higher levels, and because everything in the game is currently based around killing crowds of enemies as fast as possible, nukes reign supreme, but that doesn't mean the game should be like this for all time, nor does this diminish the value of utility: armor shreds, damage buffs, burst healing, immobilizing/slowing CC and the like are all still valuable, and can allow even selfish effects to produce interaction with one's teammates. Gauss himself has crowd control, it just sucks, which is a shame.

Which is irrelevant.  Gauss can 2 shot eidilon limbs with only the help of a rhino buff.  Because Gauss is capable of being the team's dps he has a spot in end game.  Wisp doesn't have a spot in end game comp builds despite how many people praise her buffs.  If you wanted a team buffer octavia is better than her.  and if you wanted support trinity is better than her.

3 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

Your argument here brings absolutely nothing new to the discussion, as it has already been explained that Duration does make Redline's bonus Battery charge scale slower, but still does not prevent Duration from being the best stat to build, as it makes Redline more consistent and longer-lasting, while also benefiting the rest of Gauss's kit. He does take longer to charge his Battery, but the proportion of time spent fully charged remains the same, with fewer resets, which also means Gauss gets to benefit from more consistent periods of full charge. Thus, Duration is at worst neutral on Redline if you choose to ignore its usual benefits to the buff's duration.

I wasn't disagreeing with how duration effects his kit or redline.  I was disagreeing with the notion that higher duration causes some kind of negative effect to his redline.  I tried explaining why having a "larger battery" is beneficial.

3 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

There is less build-up time, but there is also a much shorter payoff, and even at neutral or moderate Duration, the forcibly limited window of full charge has been largely criticized as too short to make full use of. Meanwhile, at longer Duration amounts there is more time to make use of the bonus consistently before the reset, so while there is a question of preference between faster charging and longer buffs, the fact remains that Duration still has a more positive effect overall on Redline.

And I think that's ill placed criticism.  If you want the absolute most out of his kit then you build for duration.  if you simply want high up time on everything then you don't need long duration abilities.  Just better efficiency.  People seem to want the juicy benefits for stupidly long times which is the sort of design we should be moving away from.

3 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

One can have an entirely separate discussion on whether it's good design for optimal builds to render certain abilities unusably bad, but with Gauss, the specific criticism isn't simply that his optimal build makes his 3 terrible, but that his 3 just so happens to be the only ability that lets him help his team out in some form. If he were structured differently so that building optimally would let his CC/utility remain decent but dump on another of his abilities, that would perhaps not be ideal still, but at least it would be better, because Gauss wouldn't be such a selfish frame then (though his team contribution would still be quite weak).

You already know my stance when it comes to people clammering about "team" frames.

3 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

Optimal setups are by definition not dictated by personal preference. It is rather obvious that Duration is optimal to build on Gauss over Range, and building around his 3 still makes for an ability that's far weaker than Frost's Avalanche. One can talk about frames that have narrow build options, but with Gauss a large part of the problem comes from the fact that there's so much in his kit that scales with nothing at all, namely Redline: if the ability and/or Mach Rush's speed scaled with Strength, that would at least offer a different build direction, but as it stands Duration is the only thing that changes Gauss's 4 at all (Strength isn't worth building for its piddly projectile damage). Thus, while there's perhaps some choice to be had between survivability for high-level missions or sprint speed for open world content, there isn't really an optimal build that doesn't dump on his CC.

As I already pointed out high duration is only "optimal" for non tileset stuff aka world bosses.  In tileset missions you're better off with a splash of range and high efficiency.  His 3 being a worse avalanche literally doesn't matter.  Gauss doesn't need to have aspects in his kit that exceed frames who SPECIALIZE in something in order to be considered a decent frame.  this is literally just you taking an easy shot at Gauss.  I can already build for strength and range if I want to make him an efficient nuking frame for most content in the game.  Just because that happens to hurt his kit else where doesn't make it any less of a usable choice.  that's the sort of decision making that's what making builds is all about.

3 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

While I can agree that some specific bits of feedback may stem from unfamiliarity with Gauss, there's been a vast amount of consistent feedback given already, with plenty of supporting evidence when it comes to that. To dismiss all of that as "personal", simply because you personally disagree with it, suggests that it's not everyone else but you who's lacking perspective here, particularly since when it comes to being factual, you have been proven mathematically wrong in spite of your own insistence.

Except i'm not dismissing all criticism.  I have my own issues with his kit (namely his 3.)  And i've given suggestions on how to tweak him.  The rest of this is just taking shots at me because whatever.  You can keep bringing up that one mistake all you like.  It doesn't change anything i've stated.  Only proven your stance overall to be weak if all you really can do is harp about one thing and then cherry pick my statements or take shots at me.  All my "personal preference" point was stating was that there are a lot of people who want Gauss to be able to constantly run with kinetic plating always up and having a HUGE amount of time on his 100% state in redline.  Because "other frames can be that powerful."  I'm not saying Gauss's current setup and costs are fair.  In fact i've mentioned something about it should probably change.  But that doesn't change my statement.

3 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

If there is common ground to be had, it's that I too think Gauss could be easily and significantly improved without requiring vast amounts of additional work, though I wouldn't believe that alone would fix everything about him. For example:

  • Letting Gauss damage enemies while running directly into them with Mach Rush, which should also charge up his battery (this was suggested by Gwyndolin-chan).
  • Moving the Redline bonuses from Thermal Sunder directly onto the base effect, and having the AoE travel out based on Duration, a la Nova's Antimatter Drop, rather than be based on Range.
  • Removing Redline's anti-scaling with Duration by having its battery always charge up at the same rate.
  • Letting Redline's steroids and Mach Rush's speed both scale with Power Strength, in addition to their current effects.

 

Point one and two seem fine.  I disagree with point 3 and 4.

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2 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

So I know that you've crossed this out because another player corrected you already, but just to stress this bit, you've been arguing based on a fundamental misunderstanding of Gauss's mechanics. It is therefore correct to say that higher Duration is better for Gauss.

I was wrong on buff calculations, but it doesn't change that fact, that you do not have to mod for min-maxed stats, while against your personal playstyle. Yes, high Duration is good for Gauss. And high PS is good for Ember, it doesn't mean you will get practical build on her, if you slot all the power mods there are in the game.

2 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

I fail to see how that answers anything I've said on the matter:

I can bring up a dozen of different examples where Corrupted mods interfere with optimal builds, and people live with this circumstance. You cannot have your cake and eat it. Mods give you the possiblity to be either a specialist, jack of all trades as well as anything in-between.

2 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

The fact that you say this shows you have understood the point even less than I initially believed: I'm in absolutely no way asking for Gauss to be turned into "an active support frame" in the same vein as Trinity, Harrow, or the like, I'm merely asking for him to have more interplay with his team...

Your point is: Frames should maintain a fully useable kit, even when modded for utmost potential. I disagree.
This is turning into another shouting contest. "You misunderstood me! -  No you." You did the comparisson with Frost and statet that even with high investment Gauss won't come close. My response was, he doesn't have to be a good support, because he is ment to be a DD. Your claim, that Gauss cannot add to multiplayer experience is only true under the condition, that you max Duration and discard Range.
This is the second time in this thread alone, that you either misunderstand my words, or deliberately project something that fits your narrative.

3 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

Plenty of frames, especially more modern ones, don't need to render entire abilities useless just to make use of the better bits of their kit

Baruuk? Mote Whisp? Pretty much every min-maxed build, due to above mentioned reasons.

3 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

And why not?

Because a killing mashine with high durability as well as access to map wide CC is an almost complete package, which combines several roles and as such deminishes the need for other team members or the whole multiplayer concept, that pretextual thing you are fighting for.

3 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

This is perhaps one of the most galaxy-brained claims I've ever seen on these forums.

Third time. And you are getting contemptous, as usual during a prolonged discussion.

3 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

Clearly, the feedback forum for a multiplayer game is not the right place to discuss multiplayer mechanics

Ah yes, a Feedback thread concerning a certain Frame is the right place to discuss general multiplayer mechanics and derail said thread. You got me. Enjoy my silence.

 

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2 minutes ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

And Gauss's buffs are effected by duration so i'm not sure why you're making the distinction.  I don't run a max strength wisp and I don't have access to Gauss yet.  So even if her rate of fire manages to exceed his because he has a reload speed buff that means his dps is going to be higher than hers.

Why wouldn't you run Strength on Wisp when it improves both her buffs and her Sol Gate? Also, how can you make such bold claims about how great Gauss feels, performs and fits in the metagame when you haven't even played him?

2 minutes ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

As I said.  rate of fire+ reload speed means better dps than her with only rate of fire buff.  Her 4 is hardly a nuke.

Her 4 is a literal damaging beam that performs exceptionally well against armor, punches through enemies, and spreads further with her 3. If that's not a nuke, I don't know what is. Attacking faster in this respect doesn't really cut it, particularly as Wisp also gets to move quicker overall in most tilesets.

2 minutes ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

Nah i'm not really.  Her's isn't better.

But it is in fact a significantly better ability, if only because it benefits her whole team. Gauss himself cannot boost his own DPS by the 4x bonus Wisp can apply to herself and her allies, and his DPS increase pales in comparison to Chroma and Rhino.

2 minutes ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

Video I gave someone else above your response to me.  Look at it.

I saw it. The video showcases the power of the Daikyu with a Riven mod, and the content creator himself mentions right out the gate that Chroma is better, while also mentioning that using the Daikyu itself has a ton of caveats and unreliability. Did you even look at the video you linked, or did you just decide to link it after seeing Gauss in it?

2 minutes ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

dashing through the map with taps and nuking with his fire cast on thermal sunder.  Didn't say he was the absolute best at it.  Just saying it's something he's good at.

But this is meant to be his prime quality. Again, if he's not even the best at the one thing he's supposed to be notable for... what's the point?

2 minutes ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

Nah.  Good try though.  I've stated my stance more than once what I consider to be team based play in several other threads.  and what you are quoting gives detail to that too.

That's very nice, but seeing how the forums do not revolve around your person, I'm not sure it's entirely reasonable to expect others to know every single word you have said on this space. If you are going to bring in your past posts, you are going to make that argument here, or at least point to some reference. As it stands, I do not know what your stance is on what you personally consider to be team play, nor do I particularly care, as this is a game played by more people than yourself, who clearly do not seem to share your definition of "team based play" or the like.

2 minutes ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

  I do also mention that solo is efficient when it comes to straight completion.

You can mention it as much as you like, but can you actually substantiate this? How is solo play more efficient than team play?

2 minutes ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

  If you're going to actually respond to my stuff try not cherry picking my statements.  It doesn't make me want to continue discussing with you. 

I have responded to literally everything you have said in full context; that is the polar opposite of cherry picking. If you don't want to continue discussing with me, nobody is forcing you to.

2 minutes ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

If you're playing endless missions it's the same time to extract every single time.  having more players in an endless does not make the rounds go faster.

But it makes the mission significantly easier, because you have more people killing enemies, defending the same objective, and so on. Thus, multiplayer is more efficient than solo play in those missions. To take this further, you are also completely wrong, because having more players in a mode like Defense absolutely makes the rounds go faster, because a team of players will be killing enemies faster than a solo player (the same can also be said for the cleanup phase in Interception), and multiple players in Disruption means conduits can be captured faster and more safely.

2 minutes ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

I'm not exactly sure what's confusing you.

In one paragraph, you're saying Warframe is a game all about farming stuff as quickly as possible, and in the next you dismiss multiplayer because bringing more players is only taken into account "when you consider farming something of any kind". Basic propositional logic dictates that, with those two claims, bringing more players is thus always taken into account, making multiplayer in fact the default. I am thus confused as to how you came to a different conclusion, and failed to establish the association between two incompatible claims you've made with only a few lines separating them.

2 minutes ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

Which is irrelevant.  Gauss can 2 shot eidilon limbs with only the help of a rhino buff.

Which Chroma can do single-handedly, with or without a Rhino buff, and without the need for an expensive Riven. Your grasping at straws here only further highlights how little reason there is to pick Gauss over other frames.

2 minutes ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

  Because Gauss is capable of being the team's dps he has a spot in end game.  Wisp doesn't have a spot in end game comp builds despite how many people praise her buffs.  If you wanted a team buffer octavia is better than her.  and if you wanted support trinity is better than her.

I agree, Wisp doesn't have a spot in the metagame, because she doesn't excel at anything in particular, even though she brings a bit of everything. However, she is about as capable of being "the team's DPS" as Gauss himself, and Gauss doesn't have much utility or CC to contribute. He's a mediocre frame who isn't even the best at the one thing you've been aggrandizing, and contributes virtually nothing else.

2 minutes ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

I wasn't disagreeing with how duration effects his kit or redline.  I was disagreeing with the notion that higher duration causes some kind of negative effect to his redline.  I tried explaining why having a "larger battery" is beneficial.

Except I myself did not claim that higher Duration was negative to Redline, I in fact elaborated several times that the reduced charge-up time makes Duration neutral to Redline at worst, and otherwise beneficial due to its various other advantages. Your explanation is therefore redundant, as per the above.

2 minutes ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

And I think that's ill placed criticism.  If you want the absolute most out of his kit then you build for duration.  if you simply want high up time on everything then you don't need long duration abilities.  Just better efficiency.  People seem to want the juicy benefits for stupidly long times which is the sort of design we should be moving away from.

... which part of my quote was criticism? I merely pointed out that high Duration was beneficial to Redline. I'm not quite sure where you're coming from here, or how anything you're saying here relates to what's been said so far.

2 minutes ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

You already know my stance when it comes to people clammering about "team" frames.

No, actually, I don't, because you're not the star of this forum, and I fail to see how you can reasonably expect people to keep up with every pearl of wisdom you deign to grace us with. I know you seem to believe that the game is meant to be played solo, but I don't know or particularly care about your opinion of people aware of Warframe's multiplayer nature. I don't see what's wrong with giving frames the opportunity to interact with each other organically, and as such I don't understand why it would be so bad to let Gauss's more team-beneficial capabilities be reasonably good when going for his optimal builds.

2 minutes ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

As I already pointed out high duration is only "optimal" for non tileset stuff aka world bosses.  In tileset missions you're better off with a splash of range and high efficiency. 

You didn't point out anything, though, you simply expressed the personal opinion that Duration and Efficiency were interchangeable, despite the noticeable difference when it comes to resetting effects such as Redline, and then relied on that personal opinion as some objective truth. Why exactly is high duration only optimal for world bosses?

2 minutes ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

His 3 being a worse avalanche literally doesn't matter.  Gauss doesn't need to have aspects in his kit that exceed frames who SPECIALIZE in something in order to be considered a decent frame.  this is literally just you taking an easy shot at Gauss. 

It is an easy shot to take at Gauss, because Gauss is an easy frame to criticize. My point regarding his 3 is that this one frame dedicating itself towards a single ability still underperforms relative to a frame who'd do the same, to say nothing of how such a build on Frost would in fact benefit some of his other abilities as well. My point isn't that Gauss should outperform specialized frames at the thing they're meant to be the best at, my point is that if you try to specialize Gauss in that, at the expense of the entire rest of his kit, the payoff is simply not there. This applies both to his 3 build, and his optimal Duration-based build.

2 minutes ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

I can already build for strength and range if I want to make him an efficient nuking frame for most content in the game.  Just because that happens to hurt his kit else where doesn't make it any less of a usable choice.  that's the sort of decision making that's what making builds is all about.

Most content in the game -- as in the Star Chart? The content in the game that even the notoriously worst frames in the game can easily run? Because by that definition Ember too is "an efficient nuking frame for most content in the game", except she still sucks, because she doesn't perform well in the part of the game that is actually relevant to a sizeable portion of players. The same goes for Gauss, whose ability-based damage very quickly falls off.

2 minutes ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

Except i'm not dismissing all criticism.  I have my own issues with his kit (namely his 3.)  And i've given suggestions on how to tweak him.  The rest of this is just taking shots at me because whatever. 

You literally dismissed the entire backlash against him as somehow personally motivated, without even bothering to justify yourself on the matter. It's like that one Seymour Skinner meme where he pins the blame on everyone else when asking himself if he's out of touch. This isn't an attempt to bring you down, by the way, so much as merely bring you down to earth.

2 minutes ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

You can keep bringing up that one mistake all you like.  It doesn't change anything i've stated.  Only proven your stance overall to be weak if all you really can do is harp about one thing and then cherry pick my statements or take shots at me.

Except I have made a whole bunch of different arguments that coherently and comprehensively point out what is wrong with Gauss. I don't need to rag on your mistakes for my points to stand. Lashing out at me instead just because I have done so itself is not the most effective counter-argument, and ultimately this whole pity party feels like an attempt to avoid actually answering my stance on Gauss, which is a shame considering there is in fact common ground to be had.

2 minutes ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

 All my "personal preference" point was stating was that there are a lot of people who want Gauss to be able to constantly run with kinetic plating always up and having a HUGE amount of time on his 100% state in redline.  Because "other frames can be that powerful."  I'm not saying Gauss's current setup and costs are fair.  In fact i've mentioned something about it should probably change.  But that doesn't change my statement.

This misses the point completely and seems to conflate design and balance, a critical mistake in this kind of discussion. I'm not advocating for him to be at 100% power all the time, because I too agree that that doesn't make for particularly thrilling gameplay. I can, however, point out that he is significantly underpowered relative to many common frames, regardless of his design, and that on top of that said design does in fact present quite a few problems that limit the enjoyment that can be had from him. I am criticizing him because I think he could be significantly better, and I would like to see him improve. As such, I fail to understand how anybody who truly cares about him would oppose any kind of deeper discussion of his flaws.

52 minutes ago, ShortCat said:

I was wrong on buff calculations, but it doesn't change that fact, that you do not have to mod for min-maxed stats, while against your personal playstyle. Yes, high Duration is good for Gauss. And high PS is good for Ember, it doesn't mean you will get practical build on her, if you slot all the power mods there are in the game.

If building purely for Strength on Ember is not optimal, then another optimal build exists for her. The same would apply to Gauss, except Gauss does perform significantly better when committing to Duration, even if it comes at the cost of his 3. This is the problem being discussed. It doesn't matter what your personal preference is on the matter, because literally anyone can come up and say that they personally prefer X inefficient build; it doesn't detract from the more general trend of players building or playing a certain way, because that's what the game's design is pushing them towards.

52 minutes ago, ShortCat said:

I can bring up a dozen of different examples where Corrupted mods interfere with optimal builds, and people live with this circumstance. You cannot have your cake and eat it. Mods give you the possiblity to be either a specialist, jack of all trades as well as anything in-between.

And once again, I fail to see how that answers anything I've said on the matter. I am well aware that Corrupted Mods come with tradeoffs, that does not detract from the fact that Efficiency is a more broadly applicable stat than Range, especially when it comes to Gauss, which is why building for Efficiency just to make up for a downgrade is fine, but building for Range on Gauss for the same doesn't work in the same way. What exactly are you even answering here?

52 minutes ago, ShortCat said:

Your point is: Frames should maintain a fully useable kit, even when modded for utmost potential. I disagree.
This is turning into another shouting contest. "You misunderstood me! -  No you."

This isn't a shouting contest; you are simply failing to respond to the arguments that are being presented to you, as you have just demonstrated by, yet again, fundamentally misunderstanding my point: I'm not advocating here for every ability in a frame to be terrific regardless of min-maxing, I am simply pointing out that sacrificing one's existing team functions completely in favor of personal power is not a tradeoff that should be presented to the player, especially not when the selfish build is itself optimal, because that means players end up building in ways that reduce overall enjoyment, due to the subtraction of team interaction. We all lose out when our multiplayer missions devolve into four players completely ignoring each other as they do their own thing, instead of having more opportunities to react to each other.

52 minutes ago, ShortCat said:

You did the comparisson with Frost and statet that even with high investment Gauss won't come close. My response was, he doesn't have to be a good support, because he is ment to be a DD.

Which is an irrelevant argument when you yourself have been advocating that he can support his team if he commits solely towards increasing the range on his 3. If his most supportive build is crap, why are you even seriously suggesting he build that way? I'm not asking for Gauss to be "a good support", I'm just saying his existence should give his team opportunities to play off of him, and vice versa.

52 minutes ago, ShortCat said:

Your claim, that Gauss cannot add to multiplayer experience is only true under the condition, that you max Duration and discard Range.

... which is what his design incentivizes the player to do anyway. It is the condition that is being satisfied at this very moment, ergo the problem is real. Asking players to build suboptimally just to better assist their team ain't gonna cut it.

52 minutes ago, ShortCat said:

This is the second time in this thread alone, that you either misunderstand my words, or deliberately project something that fits your narrative.

And what am I projecting, exactly? If anything, you are the one projecting a narrative here, as you are the one trying to twist the definition of a support to encompass any frame with even the remotest team-beneficial capabilities. By contrast, I'm simply pointing out that a frame doesn't need to be a full support to be able to do things that help their team in some basic form, and that it would in fact be better for the game if every frame had that, two propositions you don't seem to agree with.

52 minutes ago, ShortCat said:

Baruuk? Mote Whisp? Pretty much every min-maxed build, due to above mentioned reasons.

How is Mote Wisp rendering any of her other abilities unusable? Baruuk is the one major exception to this trend, and the fact that his builds inevitably ruin at least one of his abilities is one of the biggest criticisms levied against him.

52 minutes ago, ShortCat said:

Because a killing mashine with high durability as well as access to map wide CC is an almost complete package, which combines several roles and as such deminishes the need for other team members or the whole multiplayer concept, that pretextual thing you are fighting for.

Hold up: where did I ask for map-wide CC? Where did I ask for Gauss to have all this simultaneously? It seems your view of my stance is based entirely around hyperbole, when what I'm asking for is much more reasonable: I'd like Gauss to have good damage, and I guess what is now standard amounts of survivability, but also be able to apply CC decently, certainly not at "map wide" ranges unless he chooses to spec into that. Now tell me: why would that be so bad?

52 minutes ago, ShortCat said:

Third time. And you are getting contemptous, as usual during a prolonged discussion.

My remark was contemptuous because your claim was contemptible. It is laughable to pretend that Warframe, a multiplayer game, shouldn't feature multiplayer gameplay, and I see no reason to treat that kind of nonsense with any more consideration than it deserves.

52 minutes ago, ShortCat said:

Ah yes, a Feedback thread concerning a certain Frame is the right place to discuss general multiplayer mechanics and derail said thread. You got me. Enjoy my silence.

I'm sorry, how am I derailing anything here? My remark was specifically directed towards Gauss and his own mechanics; in fact my entire criticism of lack of multiplayer interaction on this thread has been centered on him. For all your bizarre accusations, it mostly just feels like you're trying to escape discussion after being pushed into an argumentative corner, and in that respect, I will certainly enjoy your silence if it entails a reduction in the number of inane remarks made on this thread.

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2 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

Why wouldn't you run Strength on Wisp when it improves both her buffs and her Sol Gate? Also, how can you make such bold claims about how great Gauss feels, performs and fits in the metagame when you haven't even played him?

I said I don't run max strength wisp.  I didn't say I didn't run strength at all.  Because I understand how the game works and have watched plenty of footage?  I don't claim to be an expert as i've had someone literally prove to me in the main Gauss thread that his boosted kit is only there above the redline.  But I mean if you're ready willing and able to toss my feedback out the door simply because I haven't touched him myself yet then I don't know why you didn't do so to begin with and just didn't reply to me initially when I quoted you.  Seems more like just taking another dig at me.

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Her 4 is a literal damaging beam that performs exceptionally well against armor, punches through enemies, and spreads further with her 3. If that's not a nuke, I don't know what is. Attacking faster in this respect doesn't really cut it, particularly as Wisp also gets to move quicker overall in most tilesets.

It has poor Aoe and you're missing the point.  You said Wisps dps is higher than Gauss's based on her rate of fire buff alone.  I responded by saying that Gauss's DPS is higher because of his rate of fire buff and reload buff.  Telling me "that doesn't matter because spooky booty moves faster in tilesets" not only doesn't actually address what we were talking about but forces me to acknowledge something else entirely and discuss that.

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But it is in fact a significantly better ability, if only because it benefits her whole team. Gauss himself cannot boost his own DPS by the 4x bonus Wisp can apply to herself and her allies, and his DPS increase pales in comparison to Chroma and Rhino.

Gauss can boost his own damage in addition to his buffs by using vigarous swap and arcane rage.  Which completely makes up for the fact that he doesn't have a built in damage boost ability.  Wisp can't meet the same performance here even with the same setup because she lacks both reload speed buffs and weapon swap buffs.  Chroma and rhino might have a higher damage per shot.  But not overall dps compared to Gauss. (when considering your average setup where there is a buffer frame present.)

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I saw it. The video showcases the power of the Daikyu with a Riven mod, and the content creator himself mentions right out the gate that Chroma is better, while also mentioning that using the Daikyu itself has a ton of caveats and unreliability. Did you even look at the video you linked, or did you just decide to link it after seeing Gauss in it?

Yes I did.  He also showed himself out damaging other damage dealers.  He also showed off what the setup looks like with different situations.  And iirc he doesn't flat out say chroma is better.  He said that whatever buffer you use depends on the mod setup for your team.  Chroma is better if you go full elemental and no serration.  Rhino is better if you use seration.  DId yOu wATch tHE ViDEo?

Also, the person very clearly points out he's using Gauss with the bow specifically because rate of fire and reload speeds both drastically improve the bow's up time with shots.  aka dps.

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But this is meant to be his prime quality. Again, if he's not even the best at the one thing he's supposed to be notable for... what's the point?

This again isn't an actual response to what i'm talking about.  You're cherry picking again.  I was specifically stating that Gauss isn't the best at speedily nuking maps in a timely manner.  But that he does compete with people who do that.  You're pulling this to be a general statement "If fast man not best at fast then why doooo?"  Let's look at Baruuk.  We can take any aspect of his abilities and compare them to others.  He does not do better at any of the things in his kit compared to someone who specializes in that area.  Does this mean Baruuk is a bad frame?  No.  Because he's capable of doing many things.  Which is the advantage he has over specialized frames.  The same exact thing applies to Gauss.

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That's very nice, but seeing how the forums do not revolve around your person, I'm not sure it's entirely reasonable to expect others to know every single word you have said on this space. If you are going to bring in your past posts, you are going to make that argument here, or at least point to some reference. As it stands, I do not know what your stance is on what you personally consider to be team play, nor do I particularly care, as this is a game played by more people than yourself, who clearly do not seem to share your definition of "team based play" or the like.

Bruh, again, I specifically stated IN THE THING YOU QUOTED what I meant as team work in detail.  So the first part of this is again just you taking shots at me.  The rest of this is just more fuel to the fire of the poor form you take when debating against someone.

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You can mention it as much as you like, but can you actually substantiate this? How is solo play more efficient than team play?

Less enemies.  Less threat to you.  less things to do.  No one to worry about screwing up.

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I have responded to literally everything you have said in full context; that is the polar opposite of cherry picking. If you don't want to continue discussing with me, nobody is forcing you to.

You really have not.

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But it makes the mission significantly easier, because you have more people killing enemies, defending the same objective, and so on. Thus, multiplayer is more efficient than solo play in those missions. To take this further, you are also completely wrong, because having more players in a mode like Defense absolutely makes the rounds go faster, because a team of players will be killing enemies faster than a solo player (the same can also be said for the cleanup phase in Interception), and multiple players in Disruption means conduits can be captured faster and more safely.

suppose it makes it easier if you're not running an optimal loadout.  But you and I are both very aware how self sufficient players are these days.

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In one paragraph, you're saying Warframe is a game all about farming stuff as quickly as possible, and in the next you dismiss multiplayer because bringing more players is only taken into account "when you consider farming something of any kind". Basic propositional logic dictates that, with those two claims, bringing more players is thus always taken into account, making multiplayer in fact the default. I am thus confused as to how you came to a different conclusion, and failed to establish the association between two incompatible claims you've made with only a few lines separating them.

Yes the foundation of warframe's gameplay is indeed farming.  However that does not mean someone is always farming.  Sometimes you just need to get something done.  like completing a sortie spy mission or a syndicate extermination.  Or maybe you just need to load into an area to scan a few things and then hop out.  In these sorts of instances (and others) it's far better to go solo because there is less variables in play and less threat to you because there is less enemies in play.

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Which Chroma can do single-handedly, with or without a Rhino buff, and without the need for an expensive Riven. Your grasping at straws here only further highlights how little reason there is to pick Gauss over other frames.

I severely doubt Chroma is capable of one shotting eidilons with his base kit.  But whatever setup you'd need to allow that to happen post his nerf is probably just as expensive investment wise as getting a perfect riven roll.  Of which I don't know why you're focusing on to begin with as we're talking end game here where min maxing is the norm and plenty of world boss hunting guides i've watched have always included a riven of some kind with an addendum stating *if you don't have a riven you can use this mod/setup and be fine.  You'll just be slower.

Also it's even funny that you mention chroma at all when you're supposedly all about that team work.  Because a min maxed chroma that is meant to be a DD is 100% selfish with his buffs.  Where as buffer chroma is sub optimal for his kit but then he's "contributing" for your checklist.  We're talking team comps for world boss hunting here.  both chroma and Gauss are capable of filling the DD role.  So in that sense Gauss is a team player.  Which is my point.

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I agree, Wisp doesn't have a spot in the metagame, because she doesn't excel at anything in particular, even though she brings a bit of everything. However, she is about as capable of being "the team's DPS" as Gauss himself, and Gauss doesn't have much utility or CC to contribute. He's a mediocre frame who isn't even the best at the one thing you've been aggrandizing, and contributes virtually nothing else.

No she isn't.  Because again.  Gauss has his reload speed.  Meaning he's going to out dps her.  And he has a holster speed buff.  Which paired with vigarous swap and arcane rage suplements his lack of having a damage buff in his kit.  Wisp would have a meta spot if her health mote actually healed lures.  As her rate of fire buff when paired with a volts shield or a buffer frame can do "okay" dps.  But as is you'd never take wisp over Gauss because Gauss can boost his damage thanks to his buffs and mod combo.

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Except I myself did not claim that higher Duration was negative to Redline, I in fact elaborated several times that the reduced charge-up time makes Duration neutral to Redline at worst, and otherwise beneficial due to its various other advantages. Your explanation is therefore redundant, as per the above.

You didn't say so much in words but in the tone of the statement.  And to be fair it's not just you but others as well who see the way duration effects redline as a negative.  If you didn't mean your statement to come out that way then i'll take the L on that and apologize for misunderstanding.  But I hardly call my explanation redundant.  Clarifying your position/perspective/stance is always a good thing.  Even if you understood exactly what my stance was others might not have.  And people jump in other conversations all the time.  That's literally how our back and forth started afterall.

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... which part of my quote was criticism? I merely pointed out that high Duration was beneficial to Redline. I'm not quite sure where you're coming from here, or how anything you're saying here relates to what's been said so far.

"the forcibly limited window of full charge has been largely criticized as too short to make full use of."  You're exact words.  I was saying that specific criticism was ill placed and elaborated.

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No, actually, I don't, because you're not the star of this forum, and I fail to see how you can reasonably expect people to keep up with every pearl of wisdom you deign to grace us with. I know you seem to believe that the game is meant to be played solo, but I don't know or particularly care about your opinion of people aware of Warframe's multiplayer nature. I don't see what's wrong with giving frames the opportunity to interact with each other organically, and as such I don't understand why it would be so bad to let Gauss's more team-beneficial capabilities be reasonably good when going for his optimal builds.

Already stated what I thought about people's desire to make every frame a forced team player in a reply to you.  I should probably ignore this as it's just more attacks on me but i'll do you a solid and go grab what I stated directly to you on the topic.  "People honestly harp on the whole "team synergy" or "bringing something to the team" thing a bit too much.  As much as i'd LOVE warframe to be a game about actual team play and warframe synergies were not only plentiful be front and center with actual roles in missions for people it's simply not what warframe is."

Or to make it easier for you to understand since I know i'm poor at explaining myself at times...People put far too much emphasis on team synergy as if it's some big important part of warframe's gameplay.  If Warframe really did care that much about team work we'd be far less self sufficient and be pushed to actually pair up together and seek out frame combos to tackle content in an easier fashion.  The closest Warframe ever got to this was back in the old void.  And that was entirely because we were not self sufficient.  I have absolutely nothing against frames that are meant to work with teams or benefit teams greatly.  I DO have a problem with trying to force that upon a frame that was not designed for that. 

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You didn't point out anything, though, you simply expressed the personal opinion that Duration and Efficiency were interchangeable, despite the noticeable difference when it comes to resetting effects such as Redline, and then relied on that personal opinion as some objective truth. Why exactly is high duration only optimal for world bosses?

Oh gosh gee willikers thanks for pointing out that my opinion is an opinion!  So is yours! :DDDDDDDDDDDDDD

Because in open world boss fights you have much more room to move around.  Meaning your movement is a far better survival tool over cc.  You're also being a DPS machine there.  So longer duration means better buffs for that role/build.  In tileset missions you are far more reliant on cc  for survival since you don't have much room to manuver.  Thus having higher efficiency lets you cast your 1 and your freeze very very often while keeping your battery up so you can tank some shots via kinetic plating when you need to.  You also use kinetic plating more in general because of the melee damage bonus.  your 3 and one giving off status procs to make CO worth going for.  So you'd be speccing for some range which you can't really have a fair amount of whilst also having high duration.

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It is an easy shot to take at Gauss, because Gauss is an easy frame to criticize. My point regarding his 3 is that this one frame dedicating itself towards a single ability still underperforms relative to a frame who'd do the same, to say nothing of how such a build on Frost would in fact benefit some of his other abilities as well. My point isn't that Gauss should outperform specialized frames at the thing they're meant to be the best at, my point is that if you try to specialize Gauss in that, at the expense of the entire rest of his kit, the payoff is simply not there. This applies both to his 3 build, and his optimal Duration-based build.

Except you're not causing great expense to the rest of his kit for making his 3's freeze more usable with a wider effect.  You just don't get optimal play with the rest of your abilities.  I'm sorry you can't have the best of both worlds for a frame that does many things instead of one thing.  That's kinda how things go.

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Most content in the game -- as in the Star Chart? The content in the game that even the notoriously worst frames in the game can easily run? Because by that definition Ember too is "an efficient nuking frame for most content in the game", except she still sucks, because she doesn't perform well in the part of the game that is actually relevant to a sizeable portion of players. The same goes for Gauss, whose ability-based damage very quickly falls off.

Star chart and sortie.  Also yes, star chart is easy to do.  Why is that important exactly?  We obviously value frames like Nova being able to speed run missions in the star chart as well.  And yes, ember is bad.  Your point?  Gauss is better as a whole.  Ember does one thing alright.  Gauss does many things alright.  It's not hard to see why your example here doesn't work.  And also lul.  Star chart is relevant to everyone because that's where we farm you dork.  You're again just fluffing and attacking.

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You literally dismissed the entire backlash against him as somehow personally motivated, without even bothering to justify yourself on the matter. It's like that one Seymour Skinner meme where he pins the blame on everyone else when asking himself if he's out of touch. This isn't an attempt to bring you down, by the way, so much as merely bring you down to earth.

Saying i've done something that' i've not repeatedly doesn't make your statement anymore true.  "i'm not trying to take your knee caps out i''m just trying to humiliate you and make your perspective look bad."

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Except I have made a whole bunch of different arguments that coherently and comprehensively point out what is wrong with Gauss. I don't need to rag on your mistakes for my points to stand. Lashing out at me instead just because I have done so itself is not the most effective counter-argument, and ultimately this whole pity party feels like an attempt to avoid actually answering my stance on Gauss, which is a shame considering there is in fact common ground to be had.

And yet you still harped on it and continued to make personal jabs at me anyway.  Pointing out your poor behavior isn't lashing out.  it's me telling you to stop acting bad and start being respectful.  Even in this section you still feel the need to lie about what i'm doing/saying.

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This misses the point completely and seems to conflate design and balance, a critical mistake in this kind of discussion. I'm not advocating for him to be at 100% power all the time, because I too agree that that doesn't make for particularly thrilling gameplay. I can, however, point out that he is significantly underpowered relative to many common frames, regardless of his design, and that on top of that said design does in fact present quite a few problems that limit the enjoyment that can be had from him. I am criticizing him because I think he could be significantly better, and I would like to see him improve. As such, I fail to understand how anybody who truly cares about him would oppose any kind of deeper discussion of his flaws.

 

You mistake my stance as me saying he's fine.  As i've already told you numerous times I don't think he's perfect.  I have issues with him.  And I do think he can receive some tweaks.  I think the comparisons made so far have not been great.  And comparing a frame that seems to be at a correct power level to frames that are clearly not seems like a poor way to make a point.  I also heavily disagree that his current design is as flawed as you seem to be making it sound.  Which is exactly why I originally pointed to the whole "player preference" thing.  Because sure, maybe YOU don't want him to be at max power easily for substantially more time but there are many people who do.  And unfortunately because these players are louder than more reasonable people such as yourself i'm inevitably drawn to respond to them which absolutely colors my perspective and potential behavior when responding to people whom are not like that.

Edited by (XB1)Knight Raime
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Gauss is probably the tankiest frame in this game when built right and he's also the fastest or at least one of the fastest. It's just so strange seeing people talk so negatively about a frame so fast and tanky at the same time. It's one of the best combinations in this game for fun and practicality. 

All you ever need is his 2. If you build for that, you won't die. His other abilities can compliment whatever playstyle you like. CC is good for you and your team, and multiple guaranteed status procs is also great for CO builds. He can nuke T3 rooms if you wanna use him that way. He's just an all around good frame. Sometimes it's nice to get a frame like that. Fun to use, insane survivability, and great CC. 

Yeah, he doesn't have some insane damage ability that just works off a single button press, but he does increase attack speed/fire rate, increases melee damage with his buff and status procs, and can close the distance super fast and precise with his 1. 

He's perfect. 😍

Edit: I forgot to mention he can strip armor and get free energy. Definitely one of the better designed frames. He's just different, but that's also one of his strengths. 

Edited by BL4CKN0ISE
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23 minutes ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

I said I don't run max strength wisp.  I didn't say I didn't run strength at all.

But where did I ever say you had to run a max strength Wisp? You're arguing off of a straw man here.

23 minutes ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

 Because I understand how the game works and have watched plenty of footage?  I don't claim to be an expert as i've had someone literally prove to me in the main Gauss thread that his boosted kit is only there above the redline.

Sure, but the way you're arguing clearly shows you're not speaking from expertise, or even especially solid knowledge of Gauss. How then can you be so sure that he has this solid place in the meta, especially so shortly after his release? I can at least point out to the waves of criticism he's received.

23 minutes ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

 But I mean if you're ready willing and able to toss my feedback out the door simply because I haven't touched him myself yet then I don't know why you didn't do so to begin with and just didn't reply to me initially when I quoted you.  Seems more like just taking another dig at me.

Not everything is about you. This isn't yet another dig, especially because I do think you are capable of producing valuable feedback, my point is simply that you are significantly exaggerating the security of your position.

23 minutes ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

It has poor Aoe and you're missing the point. 

Poor AoE by what standards? It hits multiple enemies at a time, and spreads even further with her 3. Also, if you're judging DPS capabilities on AoE, how exactly do you justify Gauss? His steroids don't give him any AoE at all, not even punch-through.

23 minutes ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

You said Wisps dps is higher than Gauss's based on her rate of fire buff alone.  I responded by saying that Gauss's DPS is higher because of his rate of fire buff and reload buff.  Telling me "that doesn't matter because spooky booty moves faster in tilesets" not only doesn't actually address what we were talking about but forces me to acknowledge something else entirely and discuss that.

Where did I say it was higher on her buff alone? You seem to have picked up the habit of twisting my words for the purposes of your argument. I brought up her movement speed buff because it make her better at maneuvering through interior tilesets than Gauss's linear sprint, not as a DPS buff. 

23 minutes ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

Gauss can boost his own damage in addition to his buffs by using vigarous swap and arcane rage.  Which completely makes up for the fact that he doesn't have a built in damage boost ability.  Wisp can't meet the same performance here even with the same setup because she lacks both reload speed buffs and weapon swap buffs.  Chroma and rhino might have a higher damage per shot.  But not overall dps compared to Gauss. (when considering your average setup where there is a buffer frame present.)

... but every frame can use Vigorous Swap and Arcane Rage, so I don't see how you're bringing that up as an exclusive benefit to Gauss, and on top of that Wisp has additional damage steroids of her own. Chroma himself can build for better holster and reload speed on top of damage, too, and Rhino's damage buff benefits his whole team. Having a buffer frame multiply overall damage does not change this, because the multiplier remains the same for everybody, and it is bizarre that you would factor in the need for a buffer when actual damage frames typically do not require a buffer to do well.

23 minutes ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

Yes I did.  He also showed himself out damaging other damage dealers.  He also showed off what the setup looks like with different situations.  And iirc he doesn't flat out say chroma is better.

He specified that he outdamages other weapons when he specifically gets a crit. Moreover, it is pointless to insist that Gauss deals better DPS when Chroma can literally multiply his own damage by a factor of ten or more.

23 minutes ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

  He said that whatever buffer you use depends on the mod setup for your team.  Chroma is better if you go full elemental and no serration.  Rhino is better if you use seration.  DId yOu wATch tHE ViDEo?

Yes I did. The fact that you keep insisting upon the need for an external buffer frame, when once again a frame like Chroma or Rhino requires no such aid to do well on their own, further undermines your point, as it simply means the damage isn't even coming from Gauss. You do understand the point you are making here, yes?

23 minutes ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

Also, the person very clearly points out he's using Gauss with the bow specifically because rate of fire and reload speeds both drastically improve the bow's up time with shots.  aka dps.

Sure, yet even with that highly specific and expensive setup, the build has many drawbacks, and requires external help to perform about as well as a single proper DPS frame. Your desperate attachment to this one flavor-of-the-day video ultimately further highlights that Gauss isn't in fact this amazing DPS frame; at best he maybe makes good use of a single weapon with a specific Riven mod and a dedicated team setup for a single particular situation. Meanwhile Chroma, whose role in the metagame is arguably also niche, manages to nonetheless perform extremely well in more than just a single mission type.

23 minutes ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

This again isn't an actual response to what i'm talking about.  You're cherry picking again.  I was specifically stating that Gauss isn't the best at speedily nuking maps in a timely manner.

Except I'm not cherry picking anything, I am pointing out the exact problem with this claim you keep making over and over again: you are even now admitting that Gauss isn't the best damage frame around, yet also by your admission that is meant to be his greatest quality (and he doesn't have that many). If the one thing he does well isn't even top-tier, yet again, what is the point?

23 minutes ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

 But that he does compete with people who do that.

Does he now? Because from the looks of it he needs the help of an external buffer frame just to be able to be on par with the likes of Chroma, and by your own standards for nuking, he is not in any way a nuker. Where exactly is his place in the metagame?

23 minutes ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

 You're pulling this to be a general statement "If fast man not best at fast then why doooo?"

For someone so sensitive to perceived "jabs", you seem rather happy to produce some infantilizing, and ultimately inane statements. For all your weak attempts to deflect the point, the point still stands: yes, if fast man only really good at fast, yet still not best at fast, why doooo? Why no pick other fast man or lady who faster but also do other things good? Does that perhaps make it easier to understand?

23 minutes ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

 Let's look at Baruuk.  We can take any aspect of his abilities and compare them to others.  He does not do better at any of the things in his kit compared to someone who specializes in that area.  Does this mean Baruuk is a bad frame?  No.  Because he's capable of doing many things.  Which is the advantage he has over specialized frames.  The same exact thing applies to Gauss.

Except Baruuk is a bad frame, precisely because he is mediocre at most things, and isn't in fact great at that many things (he can tank and apply CC, and that's it). That is one of the key reasons why he rarely sees play. It seems like you're arguing based off of an entirely different understanding of game design, or the game itself.

23 minutes ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

Bruh, again, I specifically stated IN THE THING YOU QUOTED what I meant as team work in detail.  So the first part of this is again just you taking shots at me.  The rest of this is just more fuel to the fire of the poor form you take when debating against someone.

Darling, you gave no such explanation, let alone in any detail; you simply claimed that Warframe isn't a game about multiplayer gameplay, and called it a day. I'm not taking shots at you, I'm pointing out that you are making no effort to substantiate your outrageous claims, and instead expect everyone to instinctively know exactly what you mean as if we all had some direct channel to your every thought process, an assumption that is as silly as it is arrogant, and detractive to discussion. If you want to talk about team work and challenge the general accepted understanding of the term, by all means do so, but using words put forth in this thread, as opposed to nonsensical, empty, and suspiciously subjective statements.

23 minutes ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

Less enemies.  Less threat to you.  less things to do.  No one to worry about screwing up.

But many missions do not in fact scale enemies proportionately to the number of players, and when they do, it screws the mission up, as is infamously the case with Excavations. Fewer enemies is not of any particular concern when many frames have AoE damage, and having more players to do so also diminishes threat. Perhaps Spy missions pose a concern for people screwing up, but otherwise this feels more like paranoia than anything else, especially since having allies means you get to be revived instead of dying instantly. This of course is without even going into shared Affinity, credits, and so on. Really, no part of your argument here is convincing, and the end result comes across as more motivated by whichever personal hangups over people in general than by any rational basis, particularly since you are in an extreme minority of people who act on your rationale (and thank goodness, too, because that means Warframe gets to be a multiplayer game).

23 minutes ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

You really have not.

Alright then, which parts did I not address? You're going to have to be a tad more specific, especially when you're the one accusing me here of imprecision.

23 minutes ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

suppose it makes it easier if you're not running an optimal loadout.  But you and I are both very aware how self sufficient players are these days.

How does the optimality of loadouts have anything to do with this? Optimal loadout or not, having more players around inevitably makes missions more efficient and rewarding to run.

23 minutes ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

Yes the foundation of warframe's gameplay is indeed farming.  However that does not mean someone is always farming.  Sometimes you just need to get something done.  like completing a sortie spy mission or a syndicate extermination.  Or maybe you just need to load into an area to scan a few things and then hop out.  In these sorts of instances (and others) it's far better to go solo because there is less variables in play and less threat to you because there is less enemies in play.

But then Warframe is not, in fact, "a game that's all about grinding out resources", as you are admitting to here, and even in the case of Spy and Exterminate missions, running those missions with a team will still be much faster on average (and yes, this factors in the times when someone screws up a vault), precisely because you get significantly increased killing power and can run multiple vaults at once. Thus, not only are you wrong about the nature of Warframe, you are also wrong about the efficiency of solo play versus multiplayer.

23 minutes ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

I severely doubt Chroma is capable of one shotting eidilons with his base kit.  But whatever setup you'd need to allow that to happen post his nerf is probably just as expensive investment wise as getting a perfect riven roll. 

... he's famous for this, and has been for years now, so I'm not quite understanding where this feigned incredulity is coming from. There is a reason he is, including now, the prime Eidolon killer, and he doesn't even need a Riven to achieve that.

23 minutes ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

Of which I don't know why you're focusing on to begin with as we're talking end game here where min maxing is the norm and plenty of world boss hunting guides i've watched have always included a riven of some kind with an addendum stating *if you don't have a riven you can use this mod/setup and be fine.  You'll just be slower.

Not only did you make up this entire narrative I never even alluded to, you undermined it in the same stroke by handwaving Rivens as just a natural part of endgame builds. The fact remains that the build you tried to hold up as the new meta was incredibly specific, when there are easier ways to achieve equal or better results.

23 minutes ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

Also it's even funny that you mention chroma at all when you're supposedly all about that team work.  Because a min maxed chroma that is meant to be a DD is 100% selfish with his buffs.  Where as buffer chroma is sub optimal for his kit but then he's "contributing" for your checklist.  We're talking team comps for world boss hunting here.  both chroma and Gauss are capable of filling the DD role.  So in that sense Gauss is a team player.  Which is my point.

... but I never praised Chroma for being a team player, nor did I claim he was exempt from that criticism. I in fact agree that Chroma himself is a typically fairly selfish frame, but at the very least he has a place in the metagame, whereas Gauss does not, not even in "world boss hunting" (and world bosses include Orb Mothers too, by the way, which you seem to have forgotten, yet which Chroma performs exceedingly well at too). Your whataboutist attempts at diverting attention to Chroma here make strictly no sense, as I never once defended his design (I in fact believe it's severely flawed too). 

23 minutes ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

No she isn't.  Because again.  Gauss has his reload speed.  Meaning he's going to out dps her.  And he has a holster speed buff.  Which paired with vigarous swap and arcane rage suplements his lack of having a damage buff in his kit.

And she has her punch-through nuke, her armor shred, her damage propagation, her blind, and her damage and status spread, all of which are much better for DPS than a buff to reload and holster speed. You seem to be under the rather strange impression that buffing holster speed brings about a meaningful increase to DPS, when it literally only buffs weapon swap speed (it's in the name), and you similarly keep insisting that Gauss gets more damage out of this highly specific arcane setup, when any other frame does the same with it. Again, not trying to take a jab or anything, but you have so far displayed this tendency to use what are ultimately mathematical arguments, except without any understanding of the basic underlying mathematical principles behind them: when discussing the multiplicative benefit brought about by a constant multiplier, that benefit will be by definition constant. In other words, if you multiply A by X, and B by X, the multiplier for both remains X. Bar the very specific exception of certain frames that fiddle with base damage, multiplying a weapon's damage is going to bring about the same DPS increase regardless of the amount of attack speed in play.

23 minutes ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

Wisp would have a meta spot if her health mote actually healed lures.  As her rate of fire buff when paired with a volts shield or a buffer frame can do "okay" dps.  But as is you'd never take wisp over Gauss because Gauss can boost his damage thanks to his buffs and mod combo.

It is a good thing, then, that Warframe is not a game exclusively about hunting Eidolons, which do not even make up the entirety of its high-level content. This doesn't really work out well for Gauss either, though, because ultimately he isn't top-tier there either, and has failed to replace anyone in the standard comps.

23 minutes ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

You didn't say so much in words but in the tone of the statement.  And to be fair it's not just you but others as well who see the way duration effects redline as a negative.  If you didn't mean your statement to come out that way then i'll take the L on that and apologize for misunderstanding.

I fail to see how I can be misinterpreted on "tone" here when, once again, I explicitly stated something completely different from what you claimed. It seems you've just gotten me confused with whichever other people you were arguing with.

23 minutes ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

 But I hardly call my explanation redundant.  Clarifying your position/perspective/stance is always a good thing.  Even if you understood exactly what my stance was others might not have.  And people jump in other conversations all the time.  That's literally how our back and forth started afterall.

Oh, I can fully agree with the importance of clarifying arguments, except here your "clarification" aimed to answer a disagreement that did not exist, and thus ultimately confused the argument more than it clarified it. Furthermore, the arguments you put forth had already been stated at the same level of clarity, hence the redundancy.

23 minutes ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

"the forcibly limited window of full charge has been largely criticized as too short to make full use of."  You're exact words.  I was saying that specific criticism was ill placed and elaborated.

... but that's not even criticism, that's me mentioning criticism made by others. Moreover, your disagreement with the criticism itself stemmed from some personal opinion regarding Duration, so it's not so much that the criticism is "ill placed", but more that you just personally don't like it.

23 minutes ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

Already stated what I thought about people's desire to make every frame a forced team player in a reply to you. 

Where?

23 minutes ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

I should probably ignore this as it's just more attacks on me but i'll do you a solid and go grab what I stated directly to you on the topic.  "People honestly harp on the whole "team synergy" or "bringing something to the team" thing a bit too much.  As much as i'd LOVE warframe to be a game about actual team play and warframe synergies were not only plentiful be front and center with actual roles in missions for people it's simply not what warframe is."

And where does this elaborate, let alone in any amount of detail, upon your notions of team play? By your usage of the term "forced team player", you seem to be under the impression that frame interactions can only be achieved by forcing warframes to interact with each other, when that is in no way the case, and I in fact gave several easy examples of synergetic effects that enable team play without forcing it.

23 minutes ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

Or to make it easier for you to understand since I know i'm poor at explaining myself at times...People put far too much emphasis on team synergy as if it's some big important part of warframe's gameplay.  If Warframe really did care that much about team work we'd be far less self sufficient and be pushed to actually pair up together and seek out frame combos to tackle content in an easier fashion.  The closest Warframe ever got to this was back in the old void.  And that was entirely because we were not self sufficient.  I have absolutely nothing against frames that are meant to work with teams or benefit teams greatly.  I DO have a problem with trying to force that upon a frame that was not designed for that. 

... but that is precisely the problem I am pointing out. We've received a plethora of recent frames that are entirely selfish, and that has been detrimental to the missions they're in, because that leads to players essentially ignoring each other, because there's no opportunity to interact with each other. Moreover, your framing of the situation establishes this false dichotomy where either a frame is selfish, or is incapable of self-sufficiency, when in practice there are plenty of self-sufficient frames with varying degrees of team interaction: even a frame as selfish as Ash suddenly gets to assist his team with his Shuriken augment, for example, even if he uses it entirely for selfish purposes. The entire point I have been making regarding team synergies is that they don't need to revolve around players having to seek each other out to do things to each other, but instead should be made to emerge organically from players doing their own thing for themselves, and reacting to what others do spontaneously. To pick another example, when Saryn Viral procs and staggers a room, that's a great opportunity for her teammates to capitalize on that (assuming her Spores don't murder everyone first), and benefits the team, even if Saryn herself just cast the ability to nuke people or whichever other more self-serving reason. TL;DR: warframes can be completely self-sufficient and self-oriented, and still contribute to their team, provided they output effects as part of their regular play that their allies can also turn to their advantage.

23 minutes ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

Oh gosh gee willikers thanks for pointing out that my opinion is an opinion!  So is yours! :DDDDDDDDDDDDDD

Sure, except I do this little magic trick where I substantiate my opinion with rational argumentation and examples, thereby anchoring my opinion to some more objective basis, instead of letting it float around in the vast expanse of opinions no-one has any reason to care about. See the difference?

23 minutes ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

Because in open world boss fights you have much more room to move around.  Meaning your movement is a far better survival tool over cc.  You're also being a DPS machine there.  So longer duration means better buffs for that role/build.  In tileset missions you are far more reliant on cc  for survival since you don't have much room to manuver.  Thus having higher efficiency lets you cast your 1 and your freeze very very often while keeping your battery up so you can tank some shots via kinetic plating when you need to.  You also use kinetic plating more in general because of the melee damage bonus.  your 3 and one giving off status procs to make CO worth going for.  So you'd be speccing for some range which you can't really have a fair amount of whilst also having high duration.

But by your own admission, Kinetic Plating is used at all times, and is in fact Gauss's main survival tool due to it being a DR steroid, yet benefits almost exclusively from Duration. On top of this, Gauss's hard CC is too slow to apply as a panic button, and its base range is too low to seriously invest in, so really, maxing out Duration is still optimal even in indoor tilesets.

23 minutes ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

Except you're not causing great expense to the rest of his kit for making his 3's freeze more usable with a wider effect.  You just don't get optimal play with the rest of your abilities.

You literally just contradicted yourself from one sentence to the next.

23 minutes ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

 I'm sorry you can't have the best of both worlds for a frame that does many things instead of one thing.  That's kinda how things go.

Except I'm not asking for "the best of both worlds", I'm asking for Gauss's stat incentives to not push him to sacrifice what little team interactions he has. I already mentioned that I'd probably be fine if min-maxing meant he had to trash one of his selfish abilities; it's the fact that his 3 is his only truly team-beneficial ability that's the point of my criticism here.

23 minutes ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

Star chart and sortie.

Sortie? Really? Please, by all means, show me the Gauss build that uses his ability-based damage to murder level 100 Grineer in an Increased Enemy Armor mission.

23 minutes ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

 Also yes, star chart is easy to do.  Why is that important exactly?  We obviously value frames like Nova being able to speed run missions in the star chart as well.

It is important because the ease at which the Star Chart can be run means that any frame can breeze through it with a decent build, meaning that your defense of Gauss on the grounds that he's okay in Star Chart content is particularly weak. Nova is famous for speed-running Star Chart missions because, unlike Gauss, she legitimately brings a meaningful increase to the speed of certain missions, thanks to her Speeva build. Meanwhile, if you're looking for someone to just kill Star Chart enemies really quickly, you may as well just go for Equinox, Mesa, Hildryn, etc.

23 minutes ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

  And yes, ember is bad.  Your point?

My point is that even a frame as bad as Ember does great in the Star Chart, because enemies there are so weak that anything can do well against them. Thus, the Star Chart is not an effective benchmark for the power or viability of a warframe, despite your attempts at establishing the contrary.

23 minutes ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

Gauss is better as a whole.  Ember does one thing alright.  Gauss does many things alright. It's not hard to see why your example here doesn't work. 

Such as? Even if we were to assume that his DPS were great, what else exactly does he contribute, exactly? Ember at least can say that she contributes AoE damage, team utility, and crowd control, even if she's currently not top-tier at any of those.

23 minutes ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

And also lul.  Star chart is relevant to everyone because that's where we farm you dork.  You're again just fluffing and attacking.

Once again, it seems the most thin-skinned person on this thread seems to have forgotten the inherent hypocrisy in also outright calling people names, all while complaining about being jabbed or whatever. Star Chart content may be relevant in the sense that there are occasionally things for even veterans to do, but as pointed out above, it is not the benchmark for the viability of frames, because the viability of frames is judged on higher-level content run by veterans, which includes Sorties, ESO, Arbitrations, Eidolons, and Orb Mothers. Gauss may do decently in the Star Chart, but he ultimately has no place in the latter missions, at least not in the face of preexisting warframes.

23 minutes ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

Saying i've done something that' i've not repeatedly doesn't make your statement anymore true.  "i'm not trying to take your knee caps out i''m just trying to humiliate you and make your perspective look bad."

Except I did not merely argue from repetition, I pointed out exactly what is wrong with your entire fake victim complex throughout this discussion: on a regular basis, you have been making comments that have been outright arrogant, pretentious, nonsensical, or just plain insulting, and have presumably relied on the expectation that you wouldn't be called out on this. I then proceeded to call you out on this, which seems to be bothering you no end. When you make some basic fault in math and then use it as the keystone to your argument, I'm not going to pretend you're not wrong out of politeness, and when you expect me to be aware of something you've said on some other part of the forum, or merely thought in your head without actually committing to type, I will rightfully laugh. If you don't want to be called out when you do something ridiculous, don't do ridiculous things.

23 minutes ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

And yet you still harped on it and continued to make personal jabs at me anyway.  Pointing out your poor behavior isn't lashing out.  it's me telling you to stop acting bad and start being respectful.  Even in this section you still feel the need to lie about what i'm doing/saying.

Except you are the one lying here, not me: I have not cherry-picked your statements, and have demonstrably produced far more than just one argument against your position. Meanwhile, you have used your feigned offense at my responses to attempt to dismiss my entire line of argumentation, as per the part I quoted in my above reply, have deliberately attempted to infantilize me, as per above in this reply, and have flat-out called me names. None of this is pointing out any sort of behavior on my end, it is merely lashing out, and as has now been remarked quite a few times, in spite of your thin-skinned protests you are in fact more guilty of making "jabs" than I have ever been on this thread. It is patently obvious that you are feigning offense here simply because you believe it to be an escape hatch against arguments you don't seem comfortable acknowledging, and if you were to genuinely perceive me pointing out your normalcy on the forums as an insult, that would be cause for concern.

23 minutes ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

You mistake my stance as me saying he's fine.  As i've already told you numerous times I don't think he's perfect.  I have issues with him.  And I do think he can receive some tweaks. 

But you are simply not telling the truth here, as I myself pointed out that we have some common ground in our criticisms of Gauss, an acknowledgement that would be impossible to make if my stance were as you claimed. In fact, my very criticism here was that despite the common ground to be had, you have taken a deliberately contrarian stance and refused in all possible ways to meaningfully discuss Gauss's design problems, let alone possible solutions. The best you have managed to do so far is give completely vapid opinions regarding concrete suggestions I proposed, and I do say "vapid" because you made no effort to explain your agreement or disagrement, which means there was no discussion or further development to be had.

23 minutes ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

I think the comparisons made so far have not been great.  And comparing a frame that seems to be at a correct power level to frames that are clearly not seems like a poor way to make a point.

It is your own opinion whether or not you believe all warframes in the game are OP. To some extent, I can side with the notion that frames in general are probably too powerful in some ways, but then the solution should be to bring everyone down to a reasonable power level, not to design runt frames that are bound to be ditched in favor of stronger alternatives. If nothing else, though, it's good to see you admit that Gauss is weaker than most other frames, though it would've been better if you had skipped the feigned denial.

23 minutes ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

I also heavily disagree that his current design is as flawed as you seem to be making it sound.  Which is exactly why I originally pointed to the whole "player preference" thing.  Because sure, maybe YOU don't want him to be at max power easily for substantially more time but there are many people who do.

Okay, but I'm not advocating that, so why exactly are you pinning the blame on me? It just feels here like you've got this frustration regarding discussion on Gauss that you want to vent at whoever comes around first, which isn't great to the person you're arguing with, nor is it helpful to productive discussion, particularly as it tends to only make matters more confusing.

23 minutes ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

And unfortunately because these players are louder than more reasonable people such as yourself i'm inevitably drawn to respond to them which absolutely colors my perspective and potential behavior when responding to people whom are not like that.

I would perhaps recommend that you take a look at the concept of solipsism, which among other things frequently leads to the perceived conflation of other people into some singular, hive-minded entity. Perhaps you've dealt with a lot of people with some particular shared opinion, and you're not happy with that, but please do bear in mind that I am a different person with different thoughts, and that attacking me for the faults of other people is neither reasonable nor productive. I feel I've been clear on my position regarding Gauss, and as such I don't see how I could have done anything differently to make sure you wouldn't just confuse me with some other person you've been arguing with.

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9 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

But where did I ever say you had to run a max strength Wisp? You're arguing off of a straw man here.

When we talked bout the fire rate buff I had admitted to not running a max strength wisp so I wouldn't know what her max percentage of her fire rate buff would be as part of this statement.  you responded with saying why wouldn't I run with strength.  Which I didn't understand because nothing in that reply I gave you even implied let alone stated I didn't run strength on her.  This appears to be miscommunication text book case.

9 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

Sure, but the way you're arguing clearly shows you're not speaking from expertise, or even especially solid knowledge of Gauss. How then can you be so sure that he has this solid place in the meta, especially so shortly after his release? I can at least point out to the waves of criticism he's received.

I do have solid knowledge of him.  People who actually have Gauss did and were making mistakes on their claims at the same time I was so again it's kinda irrelevant to bring up my not having Gauss especially this far into the discussion.  And it's less of an empirical statement and more of an educated guess.  I know that teams have 1 or 2 people designated as a DD for world hunting and because Gauss is capable of outputting really good DPS with his buffs and mod setup it's easy to extrapolate that he'd have a spot in end game for boss hunting.

9 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

Not everything is about you. This isn't yet another dig, especially because I do think you are capable of producing valuable feedback, my point is simply that you are significantly exaggerating the security of your position.

I wouldn't say exaggerating.  I would say it's fair for you to accuse me of being prideful/confident in my assertion.  Because I am.  I do in fact take great pride in my ability to learn how things work and in general have deep knowledge of things I care about.  But i'm not above admitting being wrong.  As I did in the main Gauss thread about the battery debate.

9 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

Poor AoE by what standards? It hits multiple enemies at a time, and spreads even further with her 3. Also, if you're judging DPS capabilities on AoE, how exactly do you justify Gauss? His steroids don't give him any AoE at all, not even punch-through.

By other standard nuker frames like equinox, saryn, octavia etc.  I'm not judging dps with aoe.  Please explain how you thought I was.

9 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

Where did I say it was higher on her buff alone? You seem to have picked up the habit of twisting my words for the purposes of your argument. I brought up her movement speed buff because it make her better at maneuvering through interior tilesets than Gauss's linear sprint, not as a DPS buff. 

You'd mentioned that her rate of fire buff % exceeds Gauss's fairly early on in our debate.  I understand why you'd bring up her movement in comparison to Gauss's movement.  What confused me is you mentioned it during a part of the convo where I thought we were strictly speaking about dps capabilities.

9 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

... but every frame can use Vigorous Swap and Arcane Rage, so I don't see how you're bringing that up as an exclusive benefit to Gauss, and on top of that Wisp has additional damage steroids of her own. Chroma himself can build for better holster and reload speed on top of damage, too, and Rhino's damage buff benefits his whole team. Having a buffer frame multiply overall damage does not change this, because the multiplier remains the same for everybody, and it is bizarre that you would factor in the need for a buffer when actual damage frames typically do not require a buffer to do well.

In the specific section you are quoting I am mentioning that swap is a bigger boon for Gauss because Gauss has things that increase his dps output (RoF, reload speed, and swap speed.)  I mentioned that Wisp cannot meet the same DPS numbers here because she does not have the reload speed or swap speed capabilities of Gauss.  If by additional damage steroids you're referring to her 3 i'm not even sure about that.  It doesn't matter if chroma can boost his holster speed.  He does not have the modding space in his kit to eek out as much as possible on his buffs whilst being able to slot in vigarous swap.  I "factor in" a buffer frame because every world hunter comp carries a buffer frame.

9 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

He specified that he outdamages other weapons when he specifically gets a crit. Moreover, it is pointless to insist that Gauss deals better DPS when Chroma can literally multiply his own damage by a factor of ten or more.

Specifiying weapon here doesn't matter because chroma is not doing damage himself.  he's doing it with a gun.  Same as every other DD.  Do you have footage of chroma 2 shotting an edilion?

9 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

Yes I did. The fact that you keep insisting upon the need for an external buffer frame, when once again a frame like Chroma or Rhino requires no such aid to do well on their own, further undermines your point, as it simply means the damage isn't even coming from Gauss. You do understand the point you are making here, yes?

Every world boss setup takes a buffer frame.  I am not suggesting that there are 2 buffer frames.  If Gauss is the DD like he is in my example then he is doing the damage.

9 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

Sure, yet even with that highly specific and expensive setup, the build has many drawbacks, and requires external help to perform about as well as a single proper DPS frame. Your desperate attachment to this one flavor-of-the-day video ultimately further highlights that Gauss isn't in fact this amazing DPS frame; at best he maybe makes good use of a single weapon with a specific Riven mod and a dedicated team setup for a single particular situation. Meanwhile Chroma, whose role in the metagame is arguably also niche, manages to nonetheless perform extremely well in more than just a single mission type.

Again pretty much any end game setup is "expensive."  I wasn't aware that bringing a normal setup and performing like a team is considered "requiring help."  i'm not desperately clinging to anything.  I can absolutely give you a video of Gauss soloing profit taker with ease if you require further proof that Gauss is a DPS machine.  Your attempt here is merely to discredit me.  This final bit is redundant.  Any frame is capable of performing decently in any mode.  Me specifically pointing to one activity type is purely because said activity type is the only end game activity Warframe currently has.  Gauss is more than capable of doing any other piece of content just fine.

9 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

Except I'm not cherry picking anything, I am pointing out the exact problem with this claim you keep making over and over again: you are even now admitting that Gauss isn't the best damage frame around, yet also by your admission that is meant to be his greatest quality (and he doesn't have that many). If the one thing he does well isn't even top-tier, yet again, what is the point?

You are.  Unless the definition has changed.  Taking one specific statement I make and blowing it up to mean a general statement of your own is pretty much text book cherry picking.  If it isn't cherry picking then there is some serious language barrier going on.  Now you're saying that because I said he's a good DPS frame but that he's not the best at quick nuking maps for speed running that I somehow am calling him a damage frame?  You're actually confusing me with how you pull these things together.  I will clarify yet again and HOPEFULLY you can stick to what i'm specifically talking about instead of trying to piece my stuff together like some amalgamation of improperly sized puzzle pieces.

Gauss COMPETES with speed running frames due to his movement and thermal sunder being good at nuking start chart.  Gauss COMPETES with DD frames in world boss scenarios because of his DPS buffs in combination with some mods.

9 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

Does he now? Because from the looks of it he needs the help of an external buffer frame just to be able to be on par with the likes of Chroma, and by your own standards for nuking, he is not in any way a nuker. Where exactly is his place in the metagame?

As a potential DD and speed running frame.  Sunder has more AoE than wisps beam so your cheeky statement here falls flat.

9 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

Except Baruuk is a bad frame, precisely because he is mediocre at most things, and isn't in fact great at that many things (he can tank and apply CC, and that's it). That is one of the key reasons why he rarely sees play. It seems like you're arguing based off of an entirely different understanding of game design, or the game itself.

Nah.  He's not.  And there are several things that can explain his lack of usage.  Banshee isn't commonly seen either.  Does that mean she's bad?  Obviously not.  And someone of your intellect shouldn't be making such lazy corallations.

9 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

Darling, you gave no such explanation, let alone in any detail; you simply claimed that Warframe isn't a game about multiplayer gameplay, and called it a day. I'm not taking shots at you, I'm pointing out that you are making no effort to substantiate your outrageous claims, and instead expect everyone to instinctively know exactly what you mean as if we all had some direct channel to your every thought process, an assumption that is as silly as it is arrogant, and detractive to discussion. If you want to talk about team work and challenge the general accepted understanding of the term, by all means do so, but using words put forth in this thread, as opposed to nonsensical, empty, and suspiciously subjective statements.

So explain to me how me stating the game doesn't give people roles in missions and doesn't promote warframe synergy or even nudge us in the direction of teaming up in order to tackle content isn't me explaining my perspective?  How is me pointing out the ever growing capabilities of being self sufficient not an explanation of the game not supporting and front loading itself with team work?

9 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

 

How does the optimality of loadouts have anything to do with this? Optimal loadout or not, having more players around inevitably makes missions more efficient and rewarding to run.

-_-  If you're running a sub optimal loadout it's very easy to extrapolate that things would be more difficult for you to complete.  That's kinda why star chart is difficult for newer players or players who don't have basic essential mods like corrupted mods and elemental/status mods.  So having someone with you aka multiplayer WOULD make it easier for the person.

9 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

But then Warframe is not, in fact, "a game that's all about grinding out resources", as you are admitting to here, and even in the case of Spy and Exterminate missions, running those missions with a team will still be much faster on average (and yes, this factors in the times when someone screws up a vault), precisely because you get significantly increased killing power and can run multiple vaults at once. Thus, not only are you wrong about the nature of Warframe, you are also wrong about the efficiency of solo play versus multiplayer.

ffs.  Just because you CAN do something besides farming does not mean the game's foundation ISNT about farming.  Jesus christ.

9 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

... he's famous for this, and has been for years now, so I'm not quite understanding where this feigned incredulity is coming from. There is a reason he is, including now, the prime Eidolon killer, and he doesn't even need a Riven to achieve that.

It was my understanding that Chroma lost his ability to one shot edilons on his own once they fixed the error in his coding for his buffs.  If that is indeed still possible please give me in detail what the setup is and possible video footage if you can find it.

9 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

Not only did you make up this entire narrative I never even alluded to, you undermined it in the same stroke by handwaving Rivens as just a natural part of endgame builds. The fact remains that the build you tried to hold up as the new meta was incredibly specific, when there are easier ways to achieve equal or better results.

Me pointing out the frequency of you using "buh riven" as an excuse isn't me making something up.  And it's entirely true that riven's are a part of end game builds.  You can go look at any hardcore end game min max style channels and see riven's being used constantly.  I never even once pretended that Gauss is a new meta.  My ENTIRE POINT was that Gauss can absolutely be subbed in as a DD of which I went into detail.  And instead of merely acknowledging that he's capable of such you've had to go through and nitpick at every little freaking thing about the setup with half arsed excuses to try and discredit it simply because you take issue with how Gauss is currently.  When me merely pointing out his peak potential capability isn't in anyway shape or form me saying that Gauss is a perfect frame that requires zero tweaks.  Yet you're taking it that way.

9 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

... but I never praised Chroma for being a team player, nor did I claim he was exempt from that criticism. I in fact agree that Chroma himself is a typically fairly selfish frame, but at the very least he has a place in the metagame, whereas Gauss does not, not even in "world boss hunting" (and world bosses include Orb Mothers too, by the way, which you seem to have forgotten, yet which Chroma performs exceedingly well at too). Your whataboutist attempts at diverting attention to Chroma here make strictly no sense, as I never once defended his design (I in fact believe it's severely flawed too). 

It's called being a hypocrite.  If we both agree that fitting in an end game team comp means they bring something to the team then the statement "x frame is a team player" is an easy statement to make.  Gauss is capable of being a teams DD.  So is Chroma.  Logic dictates that both frames are then actual team players that bring something to the team.  Or to be more direct.

9 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

And she has her punch-through nuke, her armor shred, her damage propagation, her blind, and her damage and status spread, all of which are much better for DPS than a buff to reload and holster speed. You seem to be under the rather strange impression that buffing holster speed brings about a meaningful increase to DPS, when it literally only buffs weapon swap speed (it's in the name), and you similarly keep insisting that Gauss gets more damage out of this highly specific arcane setup, when any other frame does the same with it. Again, not trying to take a jab or anything, but you have so far displayed this tendency to use what are ultimately mathematical arguments, except without any understanding of the basic underlying mathematical principles behind them: when discussing the multiplicative benefit brought about by a constant multiplier, that benefit will be by definition constant. In other words, if you multiply A by X, and B by X, the multiplier for both remains X. Bar the very specific exception of certain frames that fiddle with base damage, multiplying a weapon's damage is going to bring about the same DPS increase regardless of the amount of attack speed in play.

Of which none of that applies to world bosses which is the very thing we are talking about.  And are you seriously thinking that this entire time DPS=damage per shot?  Because i've been talking about damage per second.  And yes obviously these things are significant.  Because it let Gauss 2 shot before your typical DD frame was capable of putting out in the same time frame.

9 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

It is a good thing, then, that Warframe is not a game exclusively about hunting Eidolons, which do not even make up the entirety of its high-level content. This doesn't really work out well for Gauss either, though, because ultimately he isn't top-tier there either, and has failed to replace anyone in the standard comps.

What a joke of a statement.  World bosses are the only end game content.  Saying "good thing there's other stuff to do" is such a cop out statement.  Yet you still feel the need to try and undervalue any positive stuff about Gauss.

9 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

I fail to see how I can be misinterpreted on "tone" here when, once again, I explicitly stated something completely different from what you claimed. It seems you've just gotten me confused with whichever other people you were arguing with.

See that's the beauty of conversation.  It isn't up to you to decide how well you spoke.  It's up to the person hearing your statement.

9 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

Oh, I can fully agree with the importance of clarifying arguments, except here your "clarification" aimed to answer a disagreement that did not exist, and thus ultimately confused the argument more than it clarified it. Furthermore, the arguments you put forth had already been stated at the same level of clarity, hence the redundancy.

Nope.

9 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

... but that's not even criticism, that's me mentioning criticism made by others. Moreover, your disagreement with the criticism itself stemmed from some personal opinion regarding Duration, so it's not so much that the criticism is "ill placed", but more that you just personally don't like it.

"that's not criticism it's just criticism."

9 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

Where?

In the same snippit that you bothered to this sentence you cut out. 😆

9 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

And where does this elaborate, let alone in any amount of detail, upon your notions of team play? By your usage of the term "forced team player", you seem to be under the impression that frame interactions can only be achieved by forcing warframes to interact with each other, when that is in no way the case, and I in fact gave several easy examples of synergetic effects that enable team play without forcing it.

... but that is precisely the problem I am pointing out. We've received a plethora of recent frames that are entirely selfish, and that has been detrimental to the missions they're in, because that leads to players essentially ignoring each other, because there's no opportunity to interact with each other. Moreover, your framing of the situation establishes this false dichotomy where either a frame is selfish, or is incapable of self-sufficiency, when in practice there are plenty of self-sufficient frames with varying degrees of team interaction: even a frame as selfish as Ash suddenly gets to assist his team with his Shuriken augment, for example, even if he uses it entirely for selfish purposes. The entire point I have been making regarding team synergies is that they don't need to revolve around players having to seek each other out to do things to each other, but instead should be made to emerge organically from players doing their own thing for themselves, and reacting to what others do spontaneously. To pick another example, when Saryn Viral procs and staggers a room, that's a great opportunity for her teammates to capitalize on that (assuming her Spores don't murder everyone first), and benefits the team, even if Saryn herself just cast the ability to nuke people or whichever other more self-serving reason. TL;DR: warframes can be completely self-sufficient and self-oriented, and still contribute to their team, provided they output effects as part of their regular play that their allies can also turn to their advantage.

That's a you problem and not a game problem.  Ash's augment is not apart of his original design so that's a poor example to use your saryn example however is a much better one. If you're perfectly fine with indirect methods of help counting as being a team player then i'm not sure how Gauss dashing around and ccing people in the tilesets is some how ommitted and makes him a selfish frame.  Is it because he's not sharing his redline buffs?  Because that would be silly.

9 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

Sure, except I do this little magic trick where I substantiate my opinion with rational argumentation and examples, thereby anchoring my opinion to some more objective basis, instead of letting it float around in the vast expanse of opinions no-one has any reason to care about. See the difference?

No, not really.  We've pretty much been debating the exact same way.  You just use bigger words and take specific snippits of a block of response to make points that are meant to attack me instead of my argument.

9 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

But by your own admission, Kinetic Plating is used at all times, and is in fact Gauss's main survival tool due to it being a DR steroid, yet benefits almost exclusively from Duration. On top of this, Gauss's hard CC is too slow to apply as a panic button, and its base range is too low to seriously invest in, so really, maxing out Duration is still optimal even in indoor tilesets.

In open world.  Because your movement is better survival.  Him rag dolling enemies constantly is quick access cc that has decent range and even more so when you add more range into his kit.  And since you only need to be above redline in order for his freeze effect to take place you can easily throw out the freeze whenever you need it.  Or do I need to link you to Grindhardsquad's optimal loadout for Gauss in tilesets?

9 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

You literally just contradicted yourself from one sentence to the next.

nope.

9 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

Except I'm not asking for "the best of both worlds", I'm asking for Gauss's stat incentives to not push him to sacrifice what little team interactions he has. I already mentioned that I'd probably be fine if min-maxing meant he had to trash one of his selfish abilities; it's the fact that his 3 is his only truly team-beneficial ability that's the point of my criticism here.

Wanting Gauss to have the best possible peak with his redline whilst also having really good cc is the very deffinition of wanting the best of both worlds.  I've already pointed out the two builds to go for with Gauss depending on what activity you do.  His tileset setup does plenty of team synergy with his cc.

9 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

Sortie? Really? Please, by all means, show me the Gauss build that uses his ability-based damage to murder level 100 Grineer in an Increased Enemy Armor mission.

Capable of killing trash at that level.  Not heavily armored units.  Nice try though.

9 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

It is important because the ease at which the Star Chart can be run means that any frame can breeze through it with a decent build, meaning that your defense of Gauss on the grounds that he's okay in Star Chart content is particularly weak. Nova is famous for speed-running Star Chart missions because, unlike Gauss, she legitimately brings a meaningful increase to the speed of certain missions, thanks to her Speeva build. Meanwhile, if you're looking for someone to just kill Star Chart enemies really quickly, you may as well just go for Equinox, Mesa, Hildryn, etc.

What a wonderful brick of a statement that doesn't at all change or counter my statement.  If you can value other frames for doing star chart content fast or well then you can't ommit Gauss from that situation.  Sure, there are obviously best frames at this like any activity.  That doesn't at all invalidate Gauss's capability to do these things decently as well.

9 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

My point is that even a frame as bad as Ember does great in the Star Chart, because enemies there are so weak that anything can do well against them. Thus, the Star Chart is not an effective benchmark for the power or viability of a warframe, despite your attempts at establishing the contrary.

This also doesn't change anything.  If star chart is important in anyway shape or form for all players of the game then star chart efficient situations cannot be devalued just because you dislike the notion.  And that's lovely but i'm not Basing Gauss's capabilities or power only on star chart as this entire crap storm of a discussion shows.  It's merely one thing i've mentioned about him.

9 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

Such as? Even if we were to assume that his DPS were great, what else exactly does he contribute, exactly? Ember at least can say that she contributes AoE damage, team utility, and crowd control, even if she's currently not top-tier at any of those.

CC, utility, aoe damage, dps, survivability.

9 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

Once again, it seems the most thin-skinned person on this thread seems to have forgotten the inherent hypocrisy in also outright calling people names, all while complaining about being jabbed or whatever. Star Chart content may be relevant in the sense that there are occasionally things for even veterans to do, but as pointed out above, it is not the benchmark for the viability of frames, because the viability of frames is judged on higher-level content run by veterans, which includes Sorties, ESO, Arbitrations, Eidolons, and Orb Mothers. Gauss may do decently in the Star Chart, but he ultimately has no place in the latter missions, at least not in the face of preexisting warframes.

The difference is me saying "And also lul.  Star chart is relevant to everyone because that's where we farm you dork." is clearly playful banter.  Where as you calling me thin skinned among many other things is clearly not playful and is more of ill intent regardless of what your true intentions with said statements are.  Vets also value efficiency.  Which means someone who can do star chart related things relatively efficiently would be important.  I cannot speak on Gauss's behalf for ESO or arbitrations.  But i've already talked about world bosses.  Of which you entirely write off simply because he doesn't out right replace someone.  Volt clearly isn't the end all be all person for world bosses.  yet vets do find value in him because of his shield capability.  It's not unreasonable to state that Gauss has value in these hunts because of his DPS abilities.  Even if we ignored team placement he's actually very capable of soloing these things on his own because of aspects in his kit.  Hell Oberon can too and was recommended by Brozime as a go to frame for solo hunting.  So it's literally impossible for you to deny Gauss's value/capability with world bosses.

9 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

Except I did not merely argue from repetition, I pointed out exactly what is wrong with your entire fake victim complex throughout this discussion: on a regular basis, you have been making comments that have been outright arrogant, pretentious, nonsensical, or just plain insulting, and have presumably relied on the expectation that you wouldn't be called out on this. I then proceeded to call you out on this, which seems to be bothering you no end. When you make some basic fault in math and then use it as the keystone to your argument, I'm not going to pretend you're not wrong out of politeness, and when you expect me to be aware of something you've said on some other part of the forum, or merely thought in your head without actually committing to type, I will rightfully laugh. If you don't want to be called out when you do something ridiculous, don't do ridiculous things.

It doesn't matter why you did it.  The fact is you did it.  That's inescapable.  It's refreshing to see you continue to make blatently false assumptions and statements about me despite me saying otherwise.  i guess you're some master level therapist that knows me better than myself.  We both know that the exact rate of fire percentage has never been the only aspect of my entire arguments about Gauss.  Never asked you to not point out when I make a mistake.  Nor have I ever expected you to do anything beyond actually reading what i'm saying.  it's all fine and dandy if my explanations were not detailed enough for your satisfaction.  but you need to tell me that.  Not go "lul you said that where?"  or "you never said that."  If you don't want me calling you on things you're doing then don't do those things. 😆

9 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

Except you are the one lying here, not me: I have not cherry-picked your statements, and have demonstrably produced far more than just one argument against your position. Meanwhile, you have used your feigned offense at my responses to attempt to dismiss my entire line of argumentation, as per the part I quoted in my above reply, have deliberately attempted to infantilize me, as per above in this reply, and have flat-out called me names. None of this is pointing out any sort of behavior on my end, it is merely lashing out, and as has now been remarked quite a few times, in spite of your thin-skinned protests you are in fact more guilty of making "jabs" than I have ever been on this thread. It is patently obvious that you are feigning offense here simply because you believe it to be an escape hatch against arguments you don't seem comfortable acknowledging, and if you were to genuinely perceive me pointing out your normalcy on the forums as an insult, that would be cause for concern.

Telling me something i'm doing when i've very clearly said that's not what i'm doing is actually lying my guy.

9 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

But you are simply not telling the truth here, as I myself pointed out that we have some common ground in our criticisms of Gauss, an acknowledgement that would be impossible to make if my stance were as you claimed. In fact, my very criticism here was that despite the common ground to be had, you have taken a deliberately contrarian stance and refused in all possible ways to meaningfully discuss Gauss's design problems, let alone possible solutions. The best you have managed to do so far is give completely vapid opinions regarding concrete suggestions I proposed, and I do say "vapid" because you made no effort to explain your agreement or disagrement, which means there was no discussion or further development to be had.

I can agree to him needing tweaks and also not agree with your specific issues about the kit.  That's perfectly reasonable.

9 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

It is your own opinion whether or not you believe all warframes in the game are OP. To some extent, I can side with the notion that frames in general are probably too powerful in some ways, but then the solution should be to bring everyone down to a reasonable power level, not to design runt frames that are bound to be ditched in favor of stronger alternatives. If nothing else, though, it's good to see you admit that Gauss is weaker than most other frames, though it would've been better if you had skipped the feigned denial.

Establishing a baseline of power is important to do.  If we (as in the community,) agree that Gauss is of appropriate power to player effort ratio then the next logical step is to bring the outliers to his level.  Which is unfortunately up to DE to not only see but agree and then act upon it.

9 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

Okay, but I'm not advocating that, so why exactly are you pinning the blame on me? It just feels here like you've got this frustration regarding discussion on Gauss that you want to vent at whoever comes around first, which isn't great to the person you're arguing with, nor is it helpful to productive discussion, particularly as it tends to only make matters more confusing.

I'm not.  I simply explained the possible explanation of why some of my responses to your perceived issues might have been influenced.

9 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

I would perhaps recommend that you take a look at the concept of solipsism, which among other things frequently leads to the perceived conflation of other people into some singular, hive-minded entity. Perhaps you've dealt with a lot of people with some particular shared opinion, and you're not happy with that, but please do bear in mind that I am a different person with different thoughts, and that attacking me for the faults of other people is neither reasonable nor productive. I feel I've been clear on my position regarding Gauss, and as such I don't see how I could have done anything differently to make sure you wouldn't just confuse me with some other person you've been arguing with.

The fact that i've continued this discussion with you as long as I have I think points to me acknowledging that you're different compared to the average mouth breather.  But I can absolutely attempt to make better efforts in the future to make that more apparent.  I'm also cutting the responses here.  Because while there has been some productive back and forth in our debate it's been more bad than good.  Not only that but it's personally becoming too difficult for me to follow.  I do attribute some of this due to the weird lines you draw between some of my statements or you responding to the same brick of text but in multiple quotes.

But I am also responsible in this regard too because I might not be wording myself the best possible way for understanding.  Either way, you're one of the few people here who I both tollerate and appreciate.  And i'd rather not further chance to ruin my perspective on your insights and opinions by continuing this seemingly endless circular argument we're doing.  So I thank you for your time and perhaps we can pick up a more "dry" discussion about Gauss once he hits consoles and i've had a fair amount of hands on time with him.

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On 2019-09-12 at 2:35 PM, Annnoth said:

Did i miss something huge with him cause as far as im aware the only damage bonus he has is 100% additive melee damage.

Isn't it odd how most of the discussion in this thread has been about how it's difficult to aim while moving and almost no one has been talking about melee tactics?

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18 minutes ago, Fleuria said:

Isn't it odd how most of the discussion in this thread has been about how it's difficult to aim while moving and almost no one has been talking about melee tactics?

It's probably just people focusing on the more negatives of gauss in a thread like this and those speaking for him are just defending from the negatives. That or they just don't want to use melee on gauss since he really doesn't have that much to help him out that other frames have in my eyes. Mach rush sounds like it'd be great but it knocks enemies around a ton so utility wise, he has his kinetic plating and base sprint speed and that's it. Guns don't slow you down the way melee does unless you're using slide attacks a lot which is kinda boring to me. Also sprint speed + distance from the enemy is a god tier defensive layer.

So overall I do feel his melee capability really isn't anything worth mentioning, it just comes back to "melee is good so anything that boosts melee inherently is good". Even in his own playstyle niche of being fast and hard to kill I actually think gaurda does it better with the right set up. But I guess I am a bit bias since I'm not really one who uses melee a ton.

Edited by Annnoth

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25 minutes ago, Fleuria said:

Isn't it odd how most of the discussion in this thread has been about how it's difficult to aim while moving and almost no one has been talking about melee tactics?

There seem to be numerous walls of text in this thread about Gauss by people who don't have him, that compare him to other frames that those people don't have, and discuss his use in mission types that those people don't play.

😵

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il y a une heure, schilds a dit :

There seem to be numerous walls of text in this thread about Gauss by people who don't have him, that compare him to other frames that those people don't have, and discuss his use in mission types that those people don't play.

😵

That's an interesting, if worryingly true, take on the whole discussion. 

Point being a melee restricted dmg buff is pretty underwhelming. To the point the attack speed buff redline gives is far more impactful, because it allows for some builds otherwise impossible. At the same time, melee now deals so much damage a pure damage buff is mostly useless. 

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On 2019-09-14 at 11:44 PM, schilds said:

There seem to be numerous walls of text in this thread about Gauss by people who don't have him, that compare him to other frames that those people don't have, and discuss his use in mission types that those people don't play.

😵

🤣🤣🤣

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On 2019-09-14 at 4:25 PM, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

When we talked bout the fire rate buff I had admitted to not running a max strength wisp so I wouldn't know what her max percentage of her fire rate buff would be as part of this statement.  you responded with saying why wouldn't I run with strength.  Which I didn't understand because nothing in that reply I gave you even implied let alone stated I didn't run strength on her.  This appears to be miscommunication text book case.

I fail to see how that would be relevant when I gave specific benchmarks that did not involve max Strength, and even if I hadn't, it would not have been difficult to calculate the bonuses she'd get from max Strength. I just don't understand why the question of min-maxing Wisp around Strength would ever come about in the first place.

On 2019-09-14 at 4:25 PM, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

I do have solid knowledge of him.  People who actually have Gauss did and were making mistakes on their claims at the same time I was so again it's kinda irrelevant to bring up my not having Gauss especially this far into the discussion.  And it's less of an empirical statement and more of an educated guess.

So you have solid knowledge of him because... ? And this knowledge exceeds that of people who have actually played Gauss because... ? If you were making purely factual, verifiable statements, this wouldn't be an issue, but the problem here is you're expecting people to take your word over that of actual Gauss players criticizing him, which requires something a bit more substantial than just "an educated guess".

On 2019-09-14 at 4:25 PM, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

 I know that teams have 1 or 2 people designated as a DD for world hunting and because Gauss is capable of outputting really good DPS with his buffs and mod setup it's easy to extrapolate that he'd have a spot in end game for boss hunting.

But this is a massive leap of logic that is unsupported by existing evidence: Titania outputs ridiculous DPS thanks to her 4, for example, yet she isn't really picked for Eidolons, and even Rhino isn't seen nearly as often as Chroma. This is also all assuming Gauss outputs exceptionally good DPS to begin with, which from the looks of it doesn't appear to be the case. A typical Eidolon setup will feature Harrow, Volt, Chroma, and Trinity, and if you're going to be doing a one-on-one swap, Chroma's still going to be outdoing Gauss.

On 2019-09-14 at 4:25 PM, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

I wouldn't say exaggerating.  I would say it's fair for you to accuse me of being prideful/confident in my assertion.  Because I am.  I do in fact take great pride in my ability to learn how things work and in general have deep knowledge of things I care about.  But i'm not above admitting being wrong.  As I did in the main Gauss thread about the battery debate.

Okay, and this is all fine, but it's one thing to be able to admit to being wrong, and another to be able to admit that one is not speaking from solid grounding. In this case, I do think the latter applies, and unfortunately it also happens to affect the central point of your argument here. There are multiple layers to your core claim that I think are each questionable:

  • You claim that Gauss's DPS is exceptionally good, to which I point out that it's visibly not the 10x damage increase Chroma gives himself.
  • You claim that good DPS is enough to warrant a place in Eidolon hunts, to which I point out that plenty of frames with good DPS, such as Titania, aren't seen there.
  • You claim that good DPS is enough for a frame to be considered good, to which I point out, again, that plenty of frames with serviceable to great damage, like Titania, or even more things to contribute than him, e.g. Ember, Nyx or Vauban, are considered bad.

What I'm trying to say here is that your main line of argumentation here is founded upon a heavy amount of unfounded optimism, and while I can empathize with wanting the best for a new warframe, to me that translates to being truly critical of them and asking for a higher standard of design, so that they may attain the longevity they deserve. I'm not seeing Gauss being used particularly often at all, let alone in high-level content, and there's enough of a critical mass of criticism (and despite some factual errors, its most repeated points are correct) to suggest that he's already at risk of disappearing into mediocrity, like Wisp, Baruuk, and Revenant before him. That's not something I want, as I love his theme, which why I would rather fixate on his every flaw (and he has some pretty serious ones too) and push for a fix, even one that may risk overbuffing him in the short-term, than to simply claim that he's fine and risk having yet another MR fodder frame on our hands.

On 2019-09-14 at 4:25 PM, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

By other standard nuker frames like equinox, saryn, octavia etc.  I'm not judging dps with aoe.  Please explain how you thought I was.

You literally just did, by telling me Wisp's damage is somehow lacking because it lacks AoE. Nukes deal damage too, and Wisp can kill more enemies faster than Gauss, while also having more AoE than him. Once again, if this to you is mediocre by the standard set by other frames, that only further proves my point that Gauss is not in a great spot.

On 2019-09-14 at 4:25 PM, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

You'd mentioned that her rate of fire buff % exceeds Gauss's fairly early on in our debate.  I understand why you'd bring up her movement in comparison to Gauss's movement.  What confused me is you mentioned it during a part of the convo where I thought we were strictly speaking about dps capabilities.

But this is not true at all, as the subject of discussion was Gauss's ability to go quickly through missions:

On 2019-09-12 at 11:48 AM, Teridax68 said:

Except going fast via abilities is irrelevant in most missions, DR is common as mud, his CC is weak and made worse by the way he's meant to be built, and his steroid as mentioned above is outdone by a frame who not only does it better for herself, but can apply it to her teammates. Steroids don't do anything, they just make you do what you do better, so in the end his only contribution of note to his team is crowd control, and not particularly good crowd control at that. That is ultimately the problem with a frame that is mostly steroids: when all you do is make yourself stronger, that's not going to translate to any sort of unique output, it just makes your same outputs stronger. 

This is the paragraph you had intercepted and replied to. Not only is the notion of "going fast" ambiguous in the context of Warframe, looking at that particular thread of conversation, the original subject of discussion was in fact centered around movement, which you then reinterpreted as clearing speed, and that subsequently into DPS (which raises further questions as to why you'd try to establish a separation between DPS and nuking, as nukers are the frames known for their fast clear speeds). 

On 2019-09-14 at 4:25 PM, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

In the specific section you are quoting I am mentioning that swap is a bigger boon for Gauss because Gauss has things that increase his dps output (RoF, reload speed, and swap speed.)

But how does this make sense? Any frame with DPS bonuses benefits from more weapon swap speed in the exact same way. Moreover, unless you're constantly switching between primary and secondary weapons, weapon swap speed will only benefit you once at most per encounter. Eidolon hunts for one don't require weapon switching, and in the meantime it doesn't seem like Gauss really has a place in Profit-Taker fights, which is where weapon swapping becomes important.

On 2019-09-14 at 4:25 PM, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

I mentioned that Wisp cannot meet the same DPS numbers here because she does not have the reload speed or swap speed capabilities of Gauss.  If by additional damage steroids you're referring to her 3 i'm not even sure about that. 

"I'm not sure about that" does not translate to "I get to ignore this mechanic completely in this comparison". Wisp may not have bonus reload or swap speed, but she has a damage multiplier/headshot/spread effect, and that's without even factoring the damage/armor shred from her 4. She can clear enemies much faster than Gauss, and move through most tilesets faster than him too: just to labor the point again, this means that a frame whose core theme isn't even speed can outpace the speedster frame in most missions... and she's not even that great.

On 2019-09-14 at 4:25 PM, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

It doesn't matter if chroma can boost his holster speed.  He does not have the modding space in his kit to eek out as much as possible on his buffs whilst being able to slot in vigarous swap. 

But this isn't true, because his holster speed boost scales with Strength, which he maxes out. He doesn't need Vigorous Swap to eke out as much damage as possible, because the holster and reload speed bonuses complement his massive damage multiplier to the point where he easily exceeds any competitor in weapon damage output.

On 2019-09-14 at 4:25 PM, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

I "factor in" a buffer frame because every world hunter comp carries a buffer frame.

Which one? I pointed out the standard Eidolon comp above, and for you to suggest adding Rhino and Gauss, that's going to require you to justify removing, I don't know, Volt and Chroma, both of whom are picked over other buffer and DPS frames for various reasons (namely Volt's shield and Chroma's massive steroids).

On 2019-09-14 at 4:25 PM, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

Specifiying weapon here doesn't matter because chroma is not doing damage himself.  he's doing it with a gun.  Same as every other DD.  Do you have footage of chroma 2 shotting an edilion?

I can do you one better:

This is Chroma one-shotting Eidolon limbs, and even one-shotting the Hydrolyst itself in the final phase. Notice as well how the comp is as I mentioned above, though Chroma doesn't require any external buffs to do the one-shots. The fact that you don't seem to believe this is possible suggests you are not only unfamiliar with Gauss, but also with Eidolon hunts at the speed runner level.

Oh, and by the way, you're right, specifying the weapon doesn't matter, because both Gauss and Chroma's steroids apply to any weapon. Both magnify the damage of any given weapon, which means that if Chroma has the superior damage buff (which he does), his DPS will be superior to Gauss's regardless of weapon.

On 2019-09-14 at 4:25 PM, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

Every world boss setup takes a buffer frame.  I am not suggesting that there are 2 buffer frames.  If Gauss is the DD like he is in my example then he is doing the damage.

And in the example I just gave, Chroma doesn't need a buffer frame to do one-shot damage; the buffer frame in this case is Volt, because his shield boosts Amp damage. You are asking for any Eidolon team comp to sacrifice severe benefits to ultimately only gain an inferior version of what they can easily achieve with their current setup.

On 2019-09-14 at 4:25 PM, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

Again pretty much any end game setup is "expensive."

This isn't true; Chroma doesn't need Riven mods to output the massive damage needed for high-level content, and if he were to buy a Riven as powerful and expensive as the one needed to make a Daikyu Gauss work, he'd be miles further ahead.

On 2019-09-14 at 4:25 PM, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

 I wasn't aware that bringing a normal setup and performing like a team is considered "requiring help."

It is when the competition does not even require the assistance of another frame to output their damage. You don't seem to be quite familiar with what a "normal setup" looks like, nor what "performing like a team entails", as evidenced by the above video and your unfamiliarity with the most basic dynamics of Eidolon speed runs, so it feels like once again the Dunning-Kruger effect has colored this exchange severely.

On 2019-09-14 at 4:25 PM, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

  i'm not desperately clinging to anything.  I can absolutely give you a video of Gauss soloing profit taker with ease if you require further proof that Gauss is a DPS machine.  Your attempt here is merely to discredit me. 

And I can produce a video of Ember and Nyx doing the same, while also showing you a video of Chroma solo speedrunning PT in what I can solidly bet will be a shorter time than Gauss in your video. A significant part of the problem is that you seem to think producing some sort of video recording of Gauss doing something, in complete separation of larger context, will somehow prove what you're saying, when looking at said context fatally undermines your attempts. Just with the above example, for example, suddenly that one obscure video showcasing the Daikyu Gauss you were holding up as the pinnacle of Eidolon hunting falls apart immediately, as in my example Chroma effortlessly outperforms him (and it is generally known that Chroma melts Eidolons, so I'm not citing some rare edge case here either). Thus, I am not discrediting you, so much as pointing out that your attempts to substantiate your points are flimsy and only work in an isolated forum setting where players are somewhat disconnected from an easily verifiable state of the game, which I was able to reintroduce here regardless.

On 2019-09-14 at 4:25 PM, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

This final bit is redundant.  Any frame is capable of performing decently in any mode.

How kind of you to point this out, because I've been trying to tell you this for quite some time whenever you brought up Gauss's performance in the Star Chart as some kind of badge of merit. How strange it is, then, that you would bring up this standard here, and an entirely different one in that other part of conversation...

On 2019-09-14 at 4:25 PM, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

 Me specifically pointing to one activity type is purely because said activity type is the only end game activity Warframe currently has.  Gauss is more than capable of doing any other piece of content just fine.

Except Chroma outperforms Gauss in that activity type, and is also top-tier in Eidolon hunts. Gauss can thankfully run Star Chart content without issue, but ultimately fails to stand out anywhere at all, which is a hallmark of frames that quickly end up forgotten.

On 2019-09-14 at 4:25 PM, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

You are.  Unless the definition has changed.  Taking one specific statement I make and blowing it up to mean a general statement of your own is pretty much text book cherry picking.  If it isn't cherry picking then there is some serious language barrier going on.

And which statement did I blow up? Which general statement did I make? I merely pointed out that you yourself admitted that Gauss, the speedster frame, isn't in fact the best frame for speedrunning anything, to which I asked you what he's supposed to excel at instead. It is your conspicuous refusal to answer this question that is the problem: once again, I'm not cherry-picking anything, I am asking you a very simple question here that follows naturally from what you've said, yet it is you who are pivoting away from said uncomfortable question like a politician. So tell me: what is Gauss supposed to be the best at? What is he even supposed to be good at, and how well does he do that relative to other frames?

On 2019-09-14 at 4:25 PM, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

 Now you're saying that because I said he's a good DPS frame but that he's not the best at quick nuking maps for speed running that I somehow am calling him a damage frame?

You are repeatedly insisting that he's a powerful enough damage-dealer to replace Chroma in Eidolon hunts, so if you're telling me now that he's somehow not a damage frame, that's going to be a rather interesting change of heart on your part. Moreover, once again, all of this begs the question of what you actually consider Gauss to be: if he's not a damage frame, what is he? How does that compare to the rest?

On 2019-09-14 at 4:25 PM, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

 You're actually confusing me with how you pull these things together.  I will clarify yet again and HOPEFULLY you can stick to what i'm specifically talking about instead of trying to piece my stuff together like some amalgamation of improperly sized puzzle pieces.

Gauss COMPETES with speed running frames due to his movement and thermal sunder being good at nuking start chart.  Gauss COMPETES with DD frames in world boss scenarios because of his DPS buffs in combination with some mods.

But as already said, he's not that great at either, and there are in fact frames who can do both better and who still suck (e.g. Titania). Thus, my point remains that if he's not amazing at the thing or things he's supposed to excel at, why should anyone pick him?

On 2019-09-14 at 4:25 PM, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

As a potential DD and speed running frame.  Sunder has more AoE than wisps beam so your cheeky statement here falls flat.

But that is flatly wrong, as Wisp's beam not only reaches much farther, but also spreads further thanks to her 3. As pointed out already, Wisp among several other frames can do what Gauss does equally well or better, contribute more than he does in terms of CC and utility, and still aren't considered great. What chance then does Gauss have to compete?

On 2019-09-14 at 4:25 PM, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

Nah.  He's not.  And there are several things that can explain his lack of usage. 

Such as? I get that denial is the first stage of grief and all, but it's not really a solid argumentative tactic either.

On 2019-09-14 at 4:25 PM, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

Banshee isn't commonly seen either.  Does that mean she's bad?  Obviously not.  And someone of your intellect shouldn't be making such lazy corallations.

Flattery aside, there is in fact a point to be made about Banshee being bad specifically in high-level content, because she's squishy and needs to affect enemies with her Sonar/Silence/Sound Quake in order to be effective, which means she suffers in an environment where enemies output excessive damage and are either immune to abilities or resistant to CC. Baruuk does not have this same problem, nor does Gauss, who should normally in fact be poised to do exceptionally well due to how his power almost exclusively revolves around personal steroids. In other words: Banshee has an excuse; Gauss doesn't.

On 2019-09-14 at 4:25 PM, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

So explain to me how me stating the game doesn't give people roles in missions and doesn't promote warframe synergy or even nudge us in the direction of teaming up in order to tackle content isn't me explaining my perspective?

... because you didn't, and because that statement doesn't even make sense? A game does not need to split players into character classes in order to be multiplayer, nor do warframes need to have ultra-specific, one-on-one forced synergies with each other to synergize? The game also absolutely encourages players to team up together, look only at Relic runs for an obvious example. Beyond, that I can't quite understand how anyone who's played the game for any significant amount of time would be unaware of the benefits when playing with a team, as it is obvious that running missions in multiplayer has them generally run faster and more reliably, with specific mention of bosses, who are obviously easier to take down as a group.

On 2019-09-14 at 4:25 PM, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

 How is me pointing out the ever growing capabilities of being self sufficient not an explanation of the game not supporting and front loading itself with team work?

Because the self-sufficiency of frames is an incidental consequence of an inflation in damage reduction steroids, itself a response to excessive damage at higher levels, and not some deliberate move to discourage frames from working with each other. It is plain that you are grasping at straws here, as you are expecting me to interpret a trend in repetitive frame design as a deliberate attempt by DE themselves to make their multiplayer game more singleplayer (???). The fact that you would say this in one paragraph, and discuss the importance of team comps and team play in Eidolon hunts in another within the same post, makes your line of rhetoric here all the more blatantly disingenuous.

On 2019-09-14 at 4:25 PM, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

-_-  If you're running a sub optimal loadout it's very easy to extrapolate that things would be more difficult for you to complete.That's kinda why star chart is difficult for newer players or players who don't have basic essential mods like corrupted mods and elemental/status mods.  So having someone with you aka multiplayer WOULD make it easier for the person.

... but I never said anything was more difficult to complete here, I said playing with teammates makes content easier to run, including with a perfectly optimal loadout, regardless of the benchmark you are setting for difficulty of content. It does not matter if the player is new or a veteran, they're still going to have an easier time with extra people around, bar the specific cases of players running and failing Spy missions or whatever. You're introducing a complete red herring to the discussion here.

On 2019-09-14 at 4:25 PM, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

ffs.  Just because you CAN do something besides farming does not mean the game's foundation ISNT about farming.  Jesus christ.

Then why did you insist that the game was "all about grinding out resources"? Again, my point here is that you're setting different standards for different points of discussion here, and in this particular case you've been exaggerating Gauss's importance while downplaying the impact of multiple players in a mission (while also emphasizing it in yet another part of the discussion, so your rationale here really is inconsistent).

On 2019-09-14 at 4:25 PM, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

It was my understanding that Chroma lost his ability to one shot edilons on his own once they fixed the error in his coding for his buffs.  If that is indeed still possible please give me in detail what the setup is and possible video footage if you can find it.

See above. Even in the absence of footage, just doing the math could have been enough to see that his damage steroids outperform Gauss's.

On 2019-09-14 at 4:25 PM, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

Me pointing out the frequency of you using "buh riven" as an excuse isn't me making something up. And it's entirely true that riven's are a part of end game builds.  You can go look at any hardcore end game min max style channels and see riven's being used constantly. 

Because it is a fact that the highly specific build you are holding up requires an equally specific Riven mod to even function, above and beyond what Chroma needs to perform far better. Moreover, you are deflecting yet again here, as the narrative I'm pointing out you're making up is one where we're only discussing this ultra-high min-maxing endgame where Rivens are necessary, which is itself untrue: for sure, Rivens are extremely powerful, but a) you see content creators routinely use Rivens because they specifically try to minimize clear time right down to the second, which not even most current endgame players care about, and b) if we really were talking about Rivens across the board, Chroma would, as mentioned above, outperform Gauss even more significantly. My entire point here is that even in a situation where Gauss is hypermaxed and Chroma goes with a zero-Riven build, Chroma will still outperform Gauss, and the difference only widens when both are equalized with Rivens.

On 2019-09-14 at 4:25 PM, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

I never even once pretended that Gauss is a new meta.  My ENTIRE POINT was that Gauss can absolutely be subbed in as a DD of which I went into detail.  And instead of merely acknowledging that he's capable of such you've had to go through and nitpick at every little freaking thing about the setup with half arsed excuses to try and discredit it simply because you take issue with how Gauss is currently.  When me merely pointing out his peak potential capability isn't in anyway shape or form me saying that Gauss is a perfect frame that requires zero tweaks.  Yet you're taking it that way.

But my point here is that claiming Gauss can deal damage is an inherently worthless statement in and of itself. I am trying to discuss Gauss's viability in the game and his longevity, which is only going to be achieved if he has a legitimately solid spot in higher-level content, and brings something unique to the table. Because it's been established that he doesn't do the latter very well, as he lacks CC/utility and his only claim to uniqueness right now is the ability to rush across the Plains/Vallis really fast, the focus has thus been on the former: if the best he can do is sub in as a second-rate damage-dealer in Eidolon hunts... that's not good enough. While I am fully aware you don't think he's perfect, it is clear you are nonetheless downplaying his problems, which I take issue with.

On 2019-09-14 at 4:25 PM, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

It's called being a hypocrite. 

No, it's not. If I were defending Chroma's selfish nature, then yes, I would be, but I haven't, and do in fact hold his selfishness against him. I don't expect you to know my posts by heart, but I can assure you that whenever I discuss Chroma's design, I point out that he has some severe design issues, including poor use of the inherent utility of his elemental theme, and thus deserves a rework. If I have one thing to say in his defense, though, is that he at least manages to secure himself a place in the metagame, because he does this one thing better than anyone else, and that thing happens to be relevant to high-end content. Gauss sprinting really fast, by contrast, isn't, and his damage-dealing capabilities aren't the best, hence why he is in even more urgent need of work than Chroma.

On 2019-09-14 at 4:25 PM, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

If we both agree that fitting in an end game team comp means they bring something to the team then the statement "x frame is a team player" is an easy statement to make. 

This is a non-sequitur. A frame fitting into a team composition does not automatically imply that that frame brings unique interactions with their teammates, as evidenced precisely by Chroma, a frame who may certainly capitalize upon the bonuses provided by other frames as much as anyone else, but who fails to produce opportunities for interaction with his teammates. You are conflating two different topics entirely, and in so doing deliberately avoiding the point I am trying to make regarding synergy between warframes.

On 2019-09-14 at 4:25 PM, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

Gauss is capable of being a teams DD.  So is Chroma.  Logic dictates that both frames are then actual team players that bring something to the team.  Or to be more direct.

By that silly logic, any frame capable of dealing literally any amount of damage is a damage-dealer, and thus brings something to the team, ergo literally every frame brings something to their team via their weapons (which itself contradicts your opinions on multiplayer). However, you and I both know that there are certain expectations for how much a frame needs to contribute for that contribution to be notable, and Gauss's contributions ain't there.

On 2019-09-14 at 4:25 PM, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

Of which none of that applies to world bosses which is the very thing we are talking about.

Except no, we're not just talking about world bosses, we're talking about damage in general, and you are only now shifting the goalposts to try to exclude Wisp. As per the above quote, we've been comparing Wisp and Gauss along much broader lines of clearing speeds (and even then, you had already shifted the goalposts there too when going from general speed to just DPS), and when talking about world bosses, it's been established that Gauss doesn't hold a candle to Chroma.

On 2019-09-14 at 4:25 PM, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

  And are you seriously thinking that this entire time DPS=damage per shot?  Because i've been talking about damage per second.  And yes obviously these things are significant.  Because it let Gauss 2 shot before your typical DD frame was capable of putting out in the same time frame.

Except no, I was in fact talking about damage per second, and by those standards Chroma demonstrably outperforms Gauss, as evidenced by the above video. You seem to be desperate to wriggle out of this bit of discussion since the math's been brought out, and so through some pretty dishonest means. Ironically, your assumption of a misunderstanding seems to stem from your own lack of understanding of the basic math in play: the statement I made about DPS boosts applies to all damage multipliers, whether they be increased damage per shot, increased fire rate, and so on. This is why your references to highly specific arcanes are ultimately meaningless to the discussion, even as they further undermine your point by indicating just how niche any vaguely competitive Gauss build would need to be.

On 2019-09-14 at 4:25 PM, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

What a joke of a statement.  World bosses are the only end game content.

:crylaugh:

Speaking of joke statements... yikes. Do you even play Warframe?

On 2019-09-14 at 4:25 PM, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

Saying "good thing there's other stuff to do" is such a cop out statement.  Yet you still feel the need to try and undervalue any positive stuff about Gauss.

It's not, though, because it is a fact that ESO and Arbitrations are also considered end-game in Warframe's current state, and to a lesser extent Sorties and Kuva Survival. Pointing out that the viability of frames is not exclusively defined around Eidolons isn't a "cop out statement", it merely highlights how ignorant you are on the subject matter you are discussing, in what appears to be a worrying trend throughout this exchange. It's funny that you'd interpret that as an attack on Gauss, when all I did was correct you on an unwarranted attack on Wisp (which, by the way, I also think deserves improvements, as I've made clear on this thread).

On 2019-09-14 at 4:25 PM, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

See that's the beauty of conversation.  It isn't up to you to decide how well you spoke.  It's up to the person hearing your statement.

If I tell someone that two plus two is four, and they take offense at the statement because they interpreted that as an insult to their mother, I doubt the fault would lie with me. Similarly, when I say that Gauss scales primarily off of Duration, that Duration presents a net benefit to Redline, even with the anti-scaling between battery charge rate and Duration, and insist that higher Duration makes Redline's uptime more consistent and usable, yet you accuse me of saying Duration is detrimental to Redline, the only person to blame here for any misunderstanding is you. First you attempted to trot out this utterly pathetic excuse of tone, when my "tone" did not convey anything different from the substance of my post, and now you're telling me it's my fault that you cannot understand plain English. Sorry, that's not how it works.

On 2019-09-14 at 4:25 PM, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

Nope.

And this is meant to convince me, or anyone else... how? This particular portion of the exchange feels like some kind of regression, as your above retorts are not quite so immature.

On 2019-09-14 at 4:25 PM, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

"that's not criticism it's just criticism."

It is a citation of other people's criticism to illustrate the way the thing in question was being perceived. It is not me making the criticism. You do understand how different points of view work, yes?

On 2019-09-14 at 4:25 PM, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

In the same snippit that you bothered to this sentence you cut out. 😆

... which snippet? Literally where? Just link to the quote, as you have no reason to be vague, unless it was because you're lying and did not in fact do the work you claimed.

On 2019-09-14 at 4:25 PM, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

That's a you problem and not a game problem.

It's not, though. Warframe is a multiplayer game, and interactions between players are generally considered positive in multiplayer games, thus it stands to reason that it is good practice to design frames so that interaction between players is encouraged.

On 2019-09-14 at 4:25 PM, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

 Ash's augment is not apart of his original design so that's a poor example to use your saryn example however is a much better one. If you're perfectly fine with indirect methods of help counting as being a team player then i'm not sure how Gauss dashing around and ccing people in the tilesets is some how ommitted and makes him a selfish frame.  Is it because he's not sharing his redline buffs?  Because that would be silly.

No, it's because his CC is incredibly limited, more so even due to the way he builds, so that he doesn't actually get to contribute that much CC that often. Ash's utility being in augment form is not a poor example: I specified that Ash is an inherently selfish frame, yet at least he has these tools that let him provide some form of assistance to his team, even when used selfishly. Whether those tools come from his augments or his base kit is irrelevant, because his Shuriken augment is inherently desirable, and so for selfish reasons.

On 2019-09-14 at 4:25 PM, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

No, not really.  We've pretty much been debating the exact same way.  You just use bigger words and take specific snippits of a block of response to make points that are meant to attack me instead of my argument.

So I guess the answer is no, you don't see the difference. This is disappointing, as the only thing this ends up saying is that you don't seem to value the worth of justifying your statements, or providing concrete examples or math, which greatly limits the quality of debate to be had. The fact that you're still whining about being personally attacked even here, when I have taken great pains to direct criticisms towards the arguments you've putting out, makes me wonder whether this is all just some defense mechanism to avoid being called out on your attitude within this thread: as an individual, your person does not and should not matter in this argument, only what you say. Unfortunately, what you have said has not only been recurrently wrong, it has also often been done with the blatant intent of mystifying, diverting, or otherwise manipulating conversation in a dishonest way, often to avoid addressing critical weaknesses in your arguments. This is not the attitude one brings to a proper debate, and it is unfortunately a principal reason why conversation has not advanced thus far; thus if you genuinely care about quality of argumentation, you will spend more time improving your behavior in this thread, rather than getting offended every time it's pointed out you are acting falsely.

On 2019-09-14 at 4:25 PM, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

In open world.  Because your movement is better survival. 

Then why does he have a DR steroid to begin with? Moreover, how is his movement going to help in open-world combat when using it for any extended period will take him out of combat entirely? Your rationale here makes little sense.

On 2019-09-14 at 4:25 PM, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

Him rag dolling enemies constantly is quick access cc that has decent range and even more so when you add more range into his kit. 

But why would you be adding range to his kit? His ragdoll radius is also 4 meters, which is an absolutely terrible base range, so what you're claiming here is simply untrue.

On 2019-09-14 at 4:25 PM, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

And since you only need to be above redline in order for his freeze effect to take place you can easily throw out the freeze whenever you need it.  Or do I need to link you to Grindhardsquad's optimal loadout for Gauss in tilesets?

You can do what you like, but the battery does take time and Energy to charge, and drops out quickly. All of this, for a CC effect that itself has a mediocre range that also regresses, which is done far better for far less by another frame. I hope you'll understand, then, than I'm not quite sold on the matter.

On 2019-09-14 at 4:25 PM, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

nope.

In one sentence you claim that building for range incurs no major downsides, and in the very next one you state that doing so renders the meat of his kit suboptimal, which is a major downside. You have thus contradicted yourself in the space of literally two sentences, and it worries me that you'd either fail to realize this, or refuse to acknowledge it, as well as produce such an immature response.

On 2019-09-14 at 4:25 PM, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

Wanting Gauss to have the best possible peak with his redline whilst also having really good cc is the very deffinition of wanting the best of both worlds.  I've already pointed out the two builds to go for with Gauss depending on what activity you do.  His tileset setup does plenty of team synergy with his cc.

No, that's wanting him to start having a semblance of a decent kit. I'm not asking him to have the best CC that can possibly be had (so not "the very deffinition [sic] of wanting the best of both worlds"), and I don't think asking for him to have even "really good cc" would be asking for too much when he is currently fairly deficient overall. It doesn't matter that he can build for Range, because his range build is crap, and the only ability it meaningfully improves still ends up being significantly inferior to another ability on another frame who can max it out without trashing the rest of his own kit. It is utterly ridiculous on your part to act like he would become too strong if the radius on his current CC were moderately increased, or allowed some form of scaling in line with his main stats.

On 2019-09-14 at 4:25 PM, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

Capable of killing trash at that level.  Not heavily armored units.  Nice try though.

So, in other words, he is not in fact great at Sorties, and straight-up can't go against an entire faction, meaning that you simply made up a flimsy lie in a desperate attempt to keep up the pretense that Gauss's ability-based damage is even decent, when it notoriously isn't. Nice try though.

On 2019-09-14 at 4:25 PM, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

What a wonderful brick of a statement that doesn't at all change or counter my statement.  If you can value other frames for doing star chart content fast or well then you can't ommit Gauss from that situation.  Sure, there are obviously best frames at this like any activity.  That doesn't at all invalidate Gauss's capability to do these things decently as well.

... but the very point I am countering is that "decently" doesn't cut it. Gauss doesn't clear Star Chart content much quicker than the average frame, as opposed to some other frames that do, so bringing him up as able to speedily clear Star Chart content is simply a lie, one you've backpedalled from here. I am directly countering your statement here because you previously tried to claim Gauss was particularly good at running the Star Chart, though at this point I don't even need to do the effort when you backed yourself up by now claiming Gauss only clears Star Chart content "decently". Doing Star Chart content decently is in no way exceptional, so why bring it up? How can you possibly claim that you're not irrationally defending Gauss as fine when you're sinking this low just for that purpose?

On 2019-09-14 at 4:25 PM, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

This also doesn't change anything.  If star chart is important in anyway shape or form for all players of the game then star chart efficient situations cannot be devalued just because you dislike the notion. 

... but I'm not devaluing anything, certainly not based on subjective personal dislike. I am merely pointing out that the Star Chart is known for being easy to run by any frame, including the very bad ones: it is thus not valid from either a balance or design perspective to judge Gauss exclusively on his Star Chart performance, because the performance of frames is not judged exclusively on their Star Chart performance to begin with. To claim that Gauss is a good frame just because he runs Star Chart content decently is to say the same of Ember for the very same reasons, or Nyx, or Vauban, and we all know how well that argument goes. The mere attempt to bring attention to Gauss's Star Chart performance as a means of defending him is itself enough to raise suspicions as to his actual state.

On 2019-09-14 at 4:25 PM, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

And that's lovely but i'm not Basing Gauss's capabilities or power only on star chart as this entire crap storm of a discussion shows.  It's merely one thing i've mentioned about him.

And why did you mention it to begin with? Why would you ever feel the need to defend Gauss based on his Star Chart performance? It's like defending a person's intelligence by pointing out they know how to breathe.

On 2019-09-14 at 4:25 PM, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

CC

His CC is crap, and devalued by his primary build. Next.

On 2019-09-14 at 4:25 PM, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

, utility

His literal one utility effect is a weak armor strip that requires multiple casts of the same ability to set up. On top of this, it is also crap in the exact same respect as his CC, as it relies on range. Next.

On 2019-09-14 at 4:25 PM, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

, aoe damage

You yourself admitted his AoE damage was crap on multiple occasions. Next.

On 2019-09-14 at 4:25 PM, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

, dps

Which he demonstrably isn't even near the best at, as discussed above. Next.

On 2019-09-14 at 4:25 PM, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

, survivability.

Survivability is not a contribution. If there were missions that required players to take damage in order to progress, then it would be, but as it stands personal survivability just means you don't die, or die less. At no point does it do anything for your teammates. Next... oh wait, that's it. I guess even with you scraping the bottom of the barrel here, it's still just not enough...

On 2019-09-14 at 4:25 PM, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

The difference is me saying "And also lul.  Star chart is relevant to everyone because that's where we farm you dork." is clearly playful banter.  Where as you calling me thin skinned among many other things is clearly not playful and is more of ill intent regardless of what your true intentions with said statements are.

Ah, so when I do it in other replies, it's a vicious personal attack, but when you do it, in-between a bunch of other clearly unfriendly tirades, it's "playful banter". Real nice there, totally not hypocritical or shady at all. /s

On 2019-09-14 at 4:25 PM, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

 Vets also value efficiency.  Which means someone who can do star chart related things relatively efficiently would be important. 

Except vets have no reason to touch most of the Star Chart, and when they do, more efficient frames exist already. Which part of a vet's regular activity on the Star Chart is Gauss going to meaningfully improve?

On 2019-09-14 at 4:25 PM, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

I cannot speak on Gauss's behalf for ESO or arbitrations.  But i've already talked about world bosses.  Of which you entirely write off simply because he doesn't out right replace someone.

It's not even that he doesn't "out right replace" someone, it's that he simply is not on the same level as the frame he's competing against. You're asking to replace multiple frames in the standard comp just to accommodate Gauss, to literally no proposed advantage: the funniest part of this entire non-argument is that you not only to fail to show how Gauss does even as well as Chroma, but have not even attempted to give any indication as to what he'd contribute that Chroma wouldn't to that fight. There is literally no reason to go with a Gauss-centric comp when the standard comp exists, and plenty of reasons against, which is why Gauss has no real place against world bosses.

On 2019-09-14 at 4:25 PM, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

 Volt clearly isn't the end all be all person for world bosses.  yet vets do find value in him because of his shield capability.  It's not unreasonable to state that Gauss has value in these hunts because of his DPS abilities.

This is a complete non-sequitur: Volt is highly valued against Eidolons because his shield has the unique property of infusing projectiles that pass through it with bonus critical damage (plus extra Electricity damage), which allows Operators to melt Eidolon shields by passing their projectiles through Electric Shields, and thus quickly bypass what is typically the slowest portion of Eidolon combat. Volt is therefore picked because he brings a completely unique and valuable contribution to his team. By contrast, weapon-based DPS is pretty homogeneous, and Gauss isn't even the best frame at supplying it. It is thus in fact very unreasonable to state that Gauss's DPS would make him valuable in Eidolon hunts when better DPS frames have failed to achieve the same.

On 2019-09-14 at 4:25 PM, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

  Even if we ignored team placement he's actually very capable of soloing these things on his own because of aspects in his kit.  Hell Oberon can too and was recommended by Brozime as a go to frame for solo hunting.  So it's literally impossible for you to deny Gauss's value/capability with world bosses.

Except solo hunting isn't typically what players go for when farming Eidolons, now is it? Yet again, you are grasping at straws here by trying to find even more desperately niche situations in which Gauss does okay in, because apparently being alright at some niche thing that most players have no interest or incentive to participate in is your benchmark for a well-designed and balanced frame.

On 2019-09-14 at 4:25 PM, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

It doesn't matter why you did it.  The fact is you did it.  That's inescapable.

Did what, exactly? Because you've accused me of arguing from repetition and trying to humiliate you, which I pointed out was wrong, yet here it instead feels like what I "did" that seems to have offended you so much was call you on your poor behavior on this thread. You seem to be interpreting any criticism of your arguments as a personal attack, and also seem to genuinely believe that anyone who doesn't view you as some sort of forum celebrity hates or disrespects you. It is not disrespectful to point out that you don't get to expect me to look through your personal post history unprompted and commit your every opinion to memory, or that said expectation is unreasonable to begin with.

On 2019-09-14 at 4:25 PM, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

 It's refreshing to see you continue to make blatently false assumptions and statements about me despite me saying otherwise.  i guess you're some master level therapist that knows me better than myself.

I'm not and have never claimed to be, it's just that I've seen how people argue on the internet, and I can generally tell when people try to bullsh*t me. In this respect, your attempts are not particularly difficult to detect, and your motivations behind said attempts are transparent. There is nothing particularly special about a person lashing out because they lost an argument on the internet, and it doesn't take a "master level therapist" to see that you're struggling with this conversation and are getting frustrated at your argumentation being challenged, particularly as you, like countless other internet debaters, mistakenly conflate criticism of your argumentation with an attack on who you fundamentally are as a human being. I'm pretty sure you know all of this too, except admitting it would have you lose face, so instead you keep doubling down, thinking that your behavior here is somehow any less humiliating towards yourself.

On 2019-09-14 at 4:25 PM, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

 We both know that the exact rate of fire percentage has never been the only aspect of my entire arguments about Gauss.  Never asked you to not point out when I make a mistake.  Nor have I ever expected you to do anything beyond actually reading what i'm saying.  it's all fine and dandy if my explanations were not detailed enough for your satisfaction.  but you need to tell me that.  Not go "lul you said that where?"  or "you never said that."  If you don't want me calling you on things you're doing then don't do those things. 😆

Except I welcome you "calling me out" on whatever you wish, you just need to be truthful about it. Telling me I've said something I haven't, or haven't said something I did, when I can easily prove you wrong, is not going to amuse me very much, it's just going to make me correct you and point out that you lied to me, just as when you point to evidence that does not exist, or fail to substantiate your claims entirely. I am in full agreement that RoF has not been the only subject of discussion here, which is why I haven't been arguing exclusively on it, and have proven you wrong on many other fronts too. At this stage, it is you who care more about the mistakes you made than I do, as you are the one repeatedly bringing it up as part of some obsessive victim complex that I've long ceased to care about. You are not wrong because of a single mistake, you are wrong because of an entire pattern of lazy, unverified argumentation you've thrown around to mask a wholly unfounded opinion you were unprepared to be challenged on.

On 2019-09-14 at 4:25 PM, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

Telling me something i'm doing when i've very clearly said that's not what i'm doing is actually lying my guy.

Except as evidenced in the very paragraph you are quoting, you have been doing exactly what I pointed out you were doing, and have in fact been the one lying by falsely accusing me of cherry-picking your statements, an accusation I have invited you to justify, which you have so far conspicuously refused to honor. A puerile "no u" ain't gonna cut it here, friend.

On 2019-09-14 at 4:25 PM, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

I can agree to him needing tweaks and also not agree with your specific issues about the kit.  That's perfectly reasonable.

I completely agree, that's perfectly reasonable, which is why I never at any point criticized your disagreement with my specific suggestions. What I did criticize, however, was the fakeness of your defense here, as despite your claim that you agree with Gauss needing changes, you have expended significant amounts of time and effort to try to convince me that he does not, in fact, need changes, because he performs just fine by whichever bizarre standard you have set for the day (or just the paragraph at hand, which may or may not contradict the very next one). What I am pointing out here is that instead of trying to find common ground, you have deliberately antagonized and entrenched your position further so that it has become practically impossible to agree on anything at all, even though we clearly agree on somethings. I've even tried meeting you halfway more than once here, as I invited you to share your own criticisms of Gauss, propose suggestions of your own, or simply just say something about my own proposals with a bit more substance than "agree/disagree", yet despite the monumental volumes of text you have committed to arguing with me, just a few short sentences spent on something actually productive was apparently too much effort for you. You are visibly uninterested in having any sort of productive discussion on how to improve Gauss, and you don't get to claim the contrary until you actually start doing something, anything, that actually builds upon something that could help him, instead of just battering and insulting the people who criticize him in ways you don't agree with.

On 2019-09-14 at 4:25 PM, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

Establishing a baseline of power is important to do.  If we (as in the community,) agree that Gauss is of appropriate power to player effort ratio then the next logical step is to bring the outliers to his level.  Which is unfortunately up to DE to not only see but agree and then act upon it.

Except that is not how balancing works. You don't bring 40 frames simultaneously down to the level of a single frame, you bring that one frame to everyone else's level, and decide where to take the baseline from there. You are openly admitting here that Gauss is underpowered, which astounds me all the more as to why you'd spent so much time typing out so much piffle above.

On 2019-09-14 at 4:25 PM, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

I'm not.  I simply explained the possible explanation of why some of my responses to your perceived issues might have been influenced.

I'm reminded of this quote:

On 2019-09-14 at 4:25 PM, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

It doesn't matter why you did it.  The fact is you did it.  That's inescapable.

In the end, the thought process behind your actions is secondary, and only you can know what goes on in your mind. However, the fact remains that you've clearly gotten me confused with other people, and don't actually seem all that willing to establish a difference between the different people you've argued with. That is not normal, nor is it healthy.

On 2019-09-14 at 4:25 PM, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

The fact that i've continued this discussion with you as long as I have I think points to me acknowledging that you're different compared to the average mouth breather.

Or, more simply, I'm just that one mouth breather who chose to actually debate with you, rather than just give up and ignore you after the first reply or so, and you're keen on having the last word.

On 2019-09-14 at 4:25 PM, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

But I can absolutely attempt to make better efforts in the future to make that more apparent.  I'm also cutting the responses here.  Because while there has been some productive back and forth in our debate it's been more bad than good.  Not only that but it's personally becoming too difficult for me to follow.  I do attribute some of this due to the weird lines you draw between some of my statements or you responding to the same brick of text but in multiple quotes.

I respond to people point-by-point: if your paragraph is going to be a confused jumble of half-related propositions (and it often is), I'm going to separate the different points made, so that I can respond to each one properly. If you manage to follow a coherent train of thought for more than one or two sentences, I will include all of those in one paragraph and respond to them in one go. If that is too difficult to follow, perhaps try writing more concisely.

On 2019-09-14 at 4:25 PM, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

But I am also responsible in this regard too because I might not be wording myself the best possible way for understanding.  Either way, you're one of the few people here who I both tollerate and appreciate.  And i'd rather not further chance to ruin my perspective on your insights and opinions by continuing this seemingly endless circular argument we're doing.  So I thank you for your time and perhaps we can pick up a more "dry" discussion about Gauss once he hits consoles and i've had a fair amount of hands on time with him.

We can end here if you like, but I don't think I've ever found myself disliking a person's insights on principle just because I had some sort of falling out with them. Either what someone says stands on its own merits, or it does not: I look forward to whichever insights you may have to share in the future, hopefully next time on content you've actually played, and haven't simply chosen as a hill to die on for a week on the forums, and so regardless of the tripe you've posted on this thread.

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On 2019-09-14 at 5:28 PM, Annnoth said:

Mach rush sounds like it'd be great but it knocks enemies around a ton so utility wise, he has his kinetic plating and base sprint speed and that's it. Guns don't slow you down the way melee does unless you're using slide attacks a lot which is kinda boring to me. Also sprint speed + distance from the enemy is a god tier defensive layer.

That description does not match my experience.

Then again, I might have been using it differently from you.

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