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(PS4)joey_a21

Gender skins

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12 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

Banshee I'm still not sure of. Cant there be male Banshees? Or those are called something else?

Etymologically, Banshee comes from the old celtic for 'fairy woman' or 'woman of the fairy mound', ban deriving from the Irish for woman, bean.  A quick search suggested there could be male banshees but the source also referred to them as 'ban-he' which makes me think it's utter rubbish made up for a TV show at some time since they changed the wrong part of the word.  Most sources just mentioned them being women, crying out in mourning.  There's no doubt some other death omen spirit that could provide a name though.

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Gender skin is maybe best solution but what if power swapping is something that it's easier to do... and just take ember set powers on excal or wukong powers on mag and we got something new to work with fashion,endgame and just more fun for new and old players. And its fix all the problems...just you can farm something about this change that can give you access and when you unlock then you have new section just for that change... for example you farm that thing that allows you to change power from different frame,then when you unlock that you can select how you forma and add mods for that bew power set without changing your old powers.And just swapping between what you prefer. And it give you contest to play with and farm+ it can bee some interesting new mission specially just for this farm...maybe for example something to do with operator... And then you got yourself something new to play with. This would never ending because imagine farming to unlock all powers for just 1 warframe. And then after that for all other... But if you think how about chroma or equinox,just chroma 4 would be hologram looking frame with winngs and for equinox just changing power between day and night bod nothing would change with body because its not original and that's it

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42 minutes ago, Katinka said:

Etymologically, Banshee comes from the old celtic for 'fairy woman' or 'woman of the fairy mound', ban deriving from the Irish for woman, bean.  A quick search suggested there could be male banshees but the source also referred to them as 'ban-he' which makes me think it's utter rubbish made up for a TV show at some time since they changed the wrong part of the word.  Most sources just mentioned them being women, crying out in mourning.  There's no doubt some other death omen spirit that could provide a name though.

Peoplekind, Huemans

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28 minutes ago, ZelUrk said:

Peoplekind, Huemans

I'm sorry but I don't get how that is in any way relevant to what I said.  If there was a reason for quoting me please elaborate.

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1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

Very good points. The only case of those you mention where it really wouldnt matter is Loki, since he has even gone to the extent of being a mare and giving birth to a horse in the myths. However, for someone like Atlas and Valkyr (although only using parts of the name for Valkyries) it simply wouldnt fit with a gender swap. In those cases it would be better with a Jord, Hlodynn or maybe Gaia for a female version of Atlas with an earthly theme and Einherjer or Berserker for a male Valkyr with a similar theme.

Banshee I'm still not sure of. Cant there be male Banshees? Or those are called something else?

What makes them good points though? These frames aren't the literal figures they are labeled after, they are just concepts based off the theme those names inspire. If I drew a male character and labelled it a Valkyrie tomorrow it would not break reality, the label would not refuse to stick, my concept would not go up in flames consumed by a hellfire for not fitting traditional context. One needs to remember the names for these frames are just themes, they're whimsical aesthetic picks that bend and turn to ones want, and their boundaries are as far ones creative mind lends itself. Excalibur isn't a literal holy sword Excalibur. Nezha isn't the literal chinese diety Nezha. Loki is not the literal norse god Loki. Yes you can say it isn't a fully accurate depiction, but that's allowed because again these are not the genuine articles and are just creative interpretations based on whim. You can also as always just give them a different name as well because it's that simple to solve. 

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1 hour ago, ZelUrk said:

You can't change gender.

Warframes don't technically have a gender so not an issue. It's more like changing jeans into a skirt or a skirt into shorts of some sort. 

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2 hours ago, Cubewano said:

Warframes don't technically have a gender so not an issue. It's more like changing jeans into a skirt or a skirt into shorts of some sort. 

They do. they have the gender of the person that was infected with the Helminth Strain of the Infestation to provide a template/prototype from which we build our Warframes.

Check out the Sacrifice quest.

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2 hours ago, Cubewano said:

What makes them good points though? These frames aren't the literal figures they are labeled after, they are just concepts based off the theme those names inspire. If I drew a male character and labelled it a Valkyrie tomorrow it would not break reality, the label would not refuse to stick, my concept would not go up in flames consumed by a hellfire for not fitting traditional context. One needs to remember the names for these frames are just themes, they're whimsical aesthetic picks that bend and turn to ones want, and their boundaries are as far ones creative mind lends itself. Excalibur isn't a literal holy sword Excalibur. Nezha isn't the literal chinese diety Nezha. Loki is not the literal norse god Loki. Yes you can say it isn't a fully accurate depiction, but that's allowed because again these are not the genuine articles and are just creative interpretations based on whim. You can also as always just give them a different name as well because it's that simple to solve. 

They are good points because the names we have on the frames are generally either male or female in nature and still are for that matter. Sure you could go and make a male Valkyrie character, just as you could go and make one called a Shield Maiden, or draw a female Huskarl. All of them would just show an uneducated artist. Not because of some "traditional context" (I suppose you imply myths there), but because of the actual meanings of those words that are strictly female, female and male.

Aside from the meaning of names or their masculine or feminine nature you also need to remember we are talking about different machine models here, not people or characters. Machine models tend to look a specific way with slight alterations of added or reduced parts, yet you can still distinguish them easily. If you were to remove or add bigger things, in this case male/female parts, the base model would pretty much change aswell. It would kinda be like adding Locust legs to a Wasp mech and still call it a Wasp, even though it wouldnt be because the two are very different in design. One resembles an AT-ST and the other a Transformer or Gundam (that is the name right?). 

And this is in addition to all the time and resources it would take that could instead be spent on new frames with the same theme but a different kit.

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4 hours ago, SilentMobius said:

They do. they have the gender of the person that was infected with the Helminth Strain of the Infestation to provide a template/prototype from which we build our Warframes.

Check out the Sacrifice quest.

That would require consciousness, and not even just that, but advanced consciousness to the extent of individuality and a comprehension/familiarity of societal gender norms (and to the degree of present society not a futuristic society like what warframe exists in, where gender may be perceived entirely differently) none of which is implied to be present in frames. Umbra is the closest to a level of consciousness as a unique circumstance, and its implied he has a singular memory driving him, and is otherwise rather bereft of personhoood. So far as we're concerned Warframes lack genuine individuality, much less the full character they were before their transformation, they're effectively blank slates and as such lack even the concept of gender to even begin identifying with. 

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3 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

They are good points because the names we have on the frames are generally either male or female in nature and still are for that matter. Sure you could go and make a male Valkyrie character, just as you could go and make one called a Shield Maiden, or draw a female Huskarl. All of them would just show an uneducated artist. Not because of some "traditional context" (I suppose you imply myths there), but because of the actual meanings of those words that are strictly female, female and male.

Aside from the meaning of names or their masculine or feminine nature you also need to remember we are talking about different machine models here, not people or characters. Machine models tend to look a specific way with slight alterations of added or reduced parts, yet you can still distinguish them easily. If you were to remove or add bigger things, in this case male/female parts, the base model would pretty much change aswell. It would kinda be like adding Locust legs to a Wasp mech and still call it a Wasp, even though it wouldnt be because the two are very different in design. One resembles an AT-ST and the other a Transformer or Gundam (that is the name right?). 

And this is in addition to all the time and resources it would take that could instead be spent on new frames with the same theme but a different kit.

And again, the names can be changed for such a minor grievance, non-essential as it is, because again, people can stray from accuracy where interpretations lie. Most frames do from the get go, Excalibur is again not a literal sword, that betrays their label. Loki is not a literal trickster god, and makes little use of the characters mythos with his design or functions. Banshee isn't even anything like a Banshee outside she makes a loud noise. I'm just not seeing the inherent conflict here.

?

The moment deluxes became a trend this argument lost all steam. The investment can clearly be well worth it over a frame, otherwise DE wouldn't continue that practice. 

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25 minutes ago, Cubewano said:

And again, the names can be changed for such a minor grievance, non-essential as it is, because again, people can stray from accuracy where interpretations lie. Most frames do from the get go, Excalibur is again not a literal sword, that betrays their label. Loki is not a literal trickster god, and makes little use of the characters mythos with his design or functions. Banshee isn't even anything like a Banshee outside she makes a loud noise. I'm just not seeing the inherent conflict here.

?

The moment deluxes became a trend this argument lost all steam. The investment can clearly be well worth it over a frame, otherwise DE wouldn't continue that practice. 

Yeah deluxes are one thing, but when you suddenly sit with 2 "genders" you need to evenly distribute upcoming costumes aswell. Otherwise there is zero point in making a gender swapped version since it would be wasted resources to make a completely new mesh for just one single skin. A deluxe works with the current mesh of a frame etc. there are far less things to alter. 

And then you also come to the clipping issues, what may current sit well on a male/female frame may have issues on a female/male frame on a genderbender. That means all accessories, syandanas, weapons etc. etc. need to get a full overhaul check for every single frame when they get a female/male skin that changes the basic one. That is a whole lot of resources and work that could essentially go into new frames instead, aswell as possibly new enemy and npc designs.

Also, while the frames may not be a 1:1 adaption, they are still bound to their names which are often gender specific. For someone like Loki, the only reason why a female skin would be viable is if you take the lore into consideration since he can be anything he wants, he is a shapeshifter with everything that comes with it. But his name is still a mans name which means flame, aswell as having the possible meaning of spider in regions that were inhabited by dane tribes, hence their name for the daddy long legs spider. Seeing a very male name on a female would just make me go Aerosmith in my head "dude looks like a lady".

But I agree that the frames arent exactly fitting their name in all cases. Valkyr alone is so far from a fitting theme when you compare her name to the kit. If anything she should have been an exalted spear wielding melee frame with support skills similar to trinity and possibly a fear resembling that of Nekros.

Plus it still doesnt change that the frames originally were based on the living host inside and later on based on a person connected to the frame in some way (either the tenno or the designer) since the orokin were quite vain.

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26 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

Yeah deluxes are one thing, but when you suddenly sit with 2 "genders" you need to evenly distribute upcoming costumes aswell. Otherwise there is zero point in making a gender swapped version since it would be wasted resources to make a completely new mesh for just one single skin. A deluxe works with the current mesh of a frame etc. there are far less things to alter. 

And then you also come to the clipping issues, what may current sit well on a male/female frame may have issues on a female/male frame on a genderbender. That means all accessories, syandanas, weapons etc. etc. need to get a full overhaul check for every single frame when they get a female/male skin that changes the basic one. That is a whole lot of resources and work that could essentially go into new frames instead, aswell as possibly new enemy and npc designs.

Also, while the frames may not be a 1:1 adaption, they are still bound to their names which are often gender specific. For someone like Loki, the only reason why a female skin would be viable is if you take the lore into consideration since he can be anything he wants, he is a shapeshifter with everything that comes with it. But his name is still a mans name which means flame, aswell as having the possible meaning of spider in regions that were inhabited by dane tribes, hence their name for the daddy long legs spider. Seeing a very male name on a female would just make me go Aerosmith in my head "dude looks like a lady".

But I agree that the frames arent exactly fitting their name in all cases. Valkyr alone is so far from a fitting theme when you compare her name to the kit. If anything she should have been an exalted spear wielding melee frame with support skills similar to trinity and possibly a fear resembling that of Nekros.

Plus it still doesnt change that the frames originally were based on the living host inside and later on based on a person connected to the frame in some way (either the tenno or the designer) since the orokin were quite vain.

Deluxes are the same thing, entirely custom models separate from the default design, the process would be no different between a gender variant and a deluxe skin. 

Clipping has not been an issue in any of the frames until Grendel who is much broader than any other frame to date, which is a type of deviation that there is no reason to think would occur from just a gender swap. Everything else applies to all deluxes and DE still deemed worth. 

Why are they bound? It's already been made explicit factual accuracy to the name is not necessary, so where is this urgency from? (and why is just different naming for the variants still not suitable option either? most deluxes have names unique to their design.)

Where was it stated frames designs were based off of their host? And how do deluxes/tennogen fit into this sentiment? If it was the Orokin that did the designs, what makes you think they wouldn't be comfortable with alternate gender designs given how whimsical they were?

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1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

A deluxe works with the current mesh of a frame etc. there are far less things to alter. 

They really don't.  The Immortal skins did, prior to deluxe skins back when DE thought it was only worth making a new mesh for a new warframe.   Then Proto Excalibur happened with the excuse of being an anniversary special that justified extra effort.  That proved people were willing to buy more expensive skins that used new meshes and paved the way for deluxe skins, none of which share the mesh of the original frame.

If anything an alternate sex skin for a warframe could be a better investment of time than a deluxe skin as they could then open up Tennogen to produce variant skins of that mesh.

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Before I get confused and misunderstand something, from what @Cubewano and @Katinka are trying to say is that an alternate gender skin is not going to be a new base model, rather something along the lines of a Deluxe skin right? Not a toggle for the current default ones, but just a new model. So in that case, would they be similar to the original appearance of the Warframe or have their own completely original type of design, to the point where it's just like a regular Deluxe skin?

With the implication of TennoGen being involved, I'm assuming it's something of the former. But that also seems a bit odd to allow considering how we currently can't use Deluxe skins for TennoGen at all. I mean, unless they aren't really supposed to be considered as such and rather a new type of skin altogether.

 

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7 hours ago, Cubewano said:

That would require consciousness, and not even just that, but advanced consciousness to the extent of individuality and a comprehension/familiarity of societal gender norms (and to the degree of present society not a futuristic society like what warframe exists in, where gender may be perceived entirely differently) none of which is implied to be present in frames. Umbra is the closest to a level of consciousness as a unique circumstance, and its implied he has a singular memory driving him, and is otherwise rather bereft of personhoood. So far as we're concerned Warframes lack genuine individuality, much less the full character they were before their transformation, they're effectively blank slates and as such lack even the concept of gender to even begin identifying with. 

I disagree, something can express Gender norms as understood by society even when not a part of that society or even sapient. Warframe's feature remenants of their donor (or victim's) sex-signifiers, personal style, stance and presentation and in a number of stated cases fragmentary personality. There is no implicit requirement for a congnitive choice to express a norm.

This is made more obvious by the fact the op (And almost all others) choose to say "gender" skins" rather than "sex" skins

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52 minutes ago, SilentMobius said:

I disagree, something can express Gender norms as understood by society even when not a part of that society or even sapient. Warframe's feature remenants of their donor (or victim's) sex-signifiers, personal style, stance and presentation and in a number of stated cases fragmentary personality. There is no implicit requirement for a congnitive choice to express a norm.

This is made more obvious by the fact the op (And almost all others) choose to say "gender" skins" rather than "sex" skins

Can express but does not inherently own/relate to, there is no consciousness and as such the actions aren't really bound to the frame in particular but the person acting through them ie our operators, at least for all extent of this line of inquiry. The frames have no personhood of their own, just the perceived ones we assign them and utilize, which fits with how we can exchange their animations, even their style is up to our preference more so than their own because of again a lack of individual consciousness/sapience that allows for such drives individually. All in all the aspects aren't their to own to claim or feel attachment to and thus aren't really an argument for particular preservation on the side of themselves. Their gender is not their own as they don't have thought to personally express or comprehend such concepts. Similarly their biology is not their own as it was entirely restructured and reshaped by the infestation and then the Orokin well beyond their control or care. Much like they were first presented frames are not much more than fleshy puppets so far as we're concerned and their individuality isn't really a thing around to begin preserving on some personal level.

As for the misuse of gender over sex there isn't as much depth there as you are assigning, many consider the terms interchangeable and that gender is the more civil or polite of the pair and thus the leaning/usage. It's not some deeper signifier that everyone believes each frame to have a unique gender identity framed around their not really existing personas, just misinterpretation. 

 

 

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14 hours ago, Cubewano said:

Deluxes are the same thing, entirely custom models separate from the default design, the process would be no different between a gender variant and a deluxe skin. 

Clipping has not been an issue in any of the frames until Grendel who is much broader than any other frame to date, which is a type of deviation that there is no reason to think would occur from just a gender swap. Everything else applies to all deluxes and DE still deemed worth. 

Why are they bound? It's already been made explicit factual accuracy to the name is not necessary, so where is this urgency from? (and why is just different naming for the variants still not suitable option either? most deluxes have names unique to their design.)

Where was it stated frames designs were based off of their host? And how do deluxes/tennogen fit into this sentiment? If it was the Orokin that did the designs, what makes you think they wouldn't be comfortable with alternate gender designs given how whimsical they were?

Tennogen simply doesnt fit in, they are simply a fan favor so people can create. Deluxe we dont really know about, there is no part telling where they came from. But that goes under the same kinda dilemma as with Valkyr Prime as a whole, or the far-in-the-distant up and coming Revenant Prime. Those things are already bad enough if you care a little about lore and immersion. Deluxe may very well have been something created by one specific Orokin, just like Titania was a seperate project and not part of the main prime creation. The deluxe still holds true to the base frame. They may be versions simply dedicated to the select few, to show that they've done something extraordinary.

I cant remember where exactly I read about the frame origins in general, but it is somewhere on the wiki.

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59 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

Tennogen simply doesnt fit in, they are simply a fan favor so people can create. Deluxe we dont really know about, there is no part telling where they came from. But that goes under the same kinda dilemma as with Valkyr Prime as a whole, or the far-in-the-distant up and coming Revenant Prime. Those things are already bad enough if you care a little about lore and immersion. Deluxe may very well have been something created by one specific Orokin, just like Titania was a seperate project and not part of the main prime creation. The deluxe still holds true to the base frame. They may be versions simply dedicated to the select few, to show that they've done something extraordinary.

I cant remember where exactly I read about the frame origins in general, but it is somewhere on the wiki.

So there's really no precedence to stand against this then without opposing near all cosmetics, at least from a lore basis. And clearly people are fine with that since those cosmetics keep on being pumped out at a decently high rate, not that these variants would betray the lore either way all present arguments considered. So see they don't actually conflict all that much with the game, rather they fit perfectly in line with all else we've had to date, perhaps even better. 

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39 minutes ago, Cubewano said:

So there's really no precedence to stand against this then without opposing near all cosmetics, at least from a lore basis. And clearly people are fine with that since those cosmetics keep on being pumped out at a decently high rate, not that these variants would betray the lore either way all present arguments considered. So see they don't actually conflict all that much with the game, rather they fit perfectly in line with all else we've had to date, perhaps even better. 

I worded the first part poorly, sorry about that (was in the middle of installing a laptop right next to me aswell). What I was supposed to say it that the tennogen doesnt fit into the discussion. They are there so players can create but still stick fairly close to the basic frame. They are more like if the tenno started to mad-maxing their frames. With a genderbender it would be different because it changes the core frame and all that comes with it. It becomes a full new model/mark and probably in lore not even use the same schematics. The deluxe are simply odd because we dont actually know what they are intended as when it comes to lore. Are they just a reward of some kind, a trophy display, a ceremonial item (like horned viking helmets) or something completely different?

Tenno arent mastercrafters, so us basically creating a new frame, which a genderswap would be, is highly unlikely. Us following blueprints and creating something from that in a machine is a different story.

And in the end it would still be massive work for DE due to how many frames there are. And which skin should they pick when it comes to a genderbender? Just the basic and that is it or all skins, present and future? 

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24 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

I worded the first part poorly, sorry about that (was in the middle of installing a laptop right next to me aswell). What I was supposed to say it that the tennogen doesnt fit into the discussion. They are there so players can create but still stick fairly close to the basic frame. They are more like if the tenno started to mad-maxing their frames. With a genderbender it would be different because it changes the core frame and all that comes with it. It becomes a full new model/mark and probably in lore not even use the same schematics. The deluxe are simply odd because we dont actually know what they are intended as when it comes to lore. Are they just a reward of some kind, a trophy display, a ceremonial item (like horned viking helmets) or something completely different?

Tenno arent mastercrafters, so us basically creating a new frame, which a genderswap would be, is highly unlikely. Us following blueprints and creating something from that in a machine is a different story.

And in the end it would still be massive work for DE due to how many frames there are. And which skin should they pick when it comes to a genderbender? Just the basic and that is it or all skins, present and future? 

They are cosmetics within the game on a discussion about cosmetics within the game, they fit the discussion full well. You don't get to chose and pick where your rationale applies out of personal preference. So the range of cosmetic deviation is already here well beyond what  you are deciding to pick issue at. 

This applies to all deluxes. 

This applies to all deluxes. (it is up to de to pick what frame and what design per just like any other cosmetic, though the base would probably be the safest if the intent was to later lend them to tennogen)

 

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1 hour ago, (XB1)The Neko Otaku said:

There's what 30 something frames now, that's alot of work

And they have a lot of time, they don't have to do them all in a bulk push, just like they haven't done all deluxes at once in a bulk push. 

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1 hour ago, Cubewano said:

They are cosmetics within the game on a discussion about cosmetics within the game, they fit the discussion full well. You don't get to chose and pick where your rationale applies out of personal preference. So the range of cosmetic deviation is already here well beyond what  you are deciding to pick issue at. 

This applies to all deluxes. 

This applies to all deluxes. (it is up to de to pick what frame and what design per just like any other cosmetic, though the base would probably be the safest if the intent was to later lend them to tennogen)

 

But they are also worlds apart from what we are discussing.

The range of cosmetics is simply not my issue with all of this, it is the type of cosmetic change that is my issue. So for me, tennogen makes no difference whatsoever regarding the subject.

As for your answer to the other guy. Yeah they dont have to bulk push it, but if they dont, then what is the actual point. We've already seen how long it takes to release Deluxe skins for everyone and there are still more to go. That means those deluxes should come first, that means even more years before the roster has genderbenders for every frame. Meaning even more ranting from the community because X frame got it but Y frame doesnt. It also means that far more interesting skins will be put on the backburner in order to release very genric skins that will still take as much time and resources as an intricate deluxe design.

The question is also, how much will these bland basic skins actually sell? I wouldnt pay for an excal skin just because it has tits and an ass, because it will still be the same bland old excal. Same deal with Rhino, Nyx, Ember, Banshee, Frost etc. Most of those frames wont benefit from a genderbender.

Also, how would you treat Excal Prime and a female skin. Would it really be worth designing a skin that just a few would/could actually ever buy?

edit: When you also look at the bigger picture it would require DE to design 2 female skins per frame, because you need to cover all primes aswell.

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29 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

But they are also worlds apart from what we are discussing.

The range of cosmetics is simply not my issue with all of this, it is the type of cosmetic change that is my issue. So for me, tennogen makes no difference whatsoever regarding the subject.

As for your answer to the other guy. Yeah they dont have to bulk push it, but if they dont, then what is the actual point. We've already seen how long it takes to release Deluxe skins for everyone and there are still more to go. That means those deluxes should come first, that means even more years before the roster has genderbenders for every frame. Meaning even more ranting from the community because X frame got it but Y frame doesnt. It also means that far more interesting skins will be put on the backburner in order to release very genric skins that will still take as much time and resources as an intricate deluxe design.

The question is also, how much will these bland basic skins actually sell? I wouldnt pay for an excal skin just because it has tits and an ass, because it will still be the same bland old excal. Same deal with Rhino, Nyx, Ember, Banshee, Frost etc. Most of those frames wont benefit from a genderbender.

Also, how would you treat Excal Prime and a female skin. Would it really be worth designing a skin that just a few would/could actually ever buy?

edit: When you also look at the bigger picture it would require DE to design 2 female skins per frame, because you need to cover all primes aswell.

But see, they aren't. This is a conversation about creative ranges skins are allowed to possess in this game, whether in design, loyalty to a theme, or relevance to game lore, there is no reason tennogen would not count for this conversation. 

That you think these rules should apply exclusively to one skin type and no other is just a sign of express bias rather than neutral objectivity, unless you can further elaborate what exactly makes one not applicable but the other fully so.

 The actual point is to provide more cosmetic options, just like any skin series, none are bulk pushed but they are desired all the same. Some is better than none, and over time is better than never at all. Every other sentiment here is subjective at best, personal opinions, and assumptions on behalf of the community on how they're respond and what they'd want and even how DE would manage. You can say you don't care for the idea but you need to stop treating it as an objective world truth. 

Only DE would know how these skins would sell, just because you wouldn't buy it with you explicit bias against them doesn't make it a devoid of potential, especially if as noted they can release the mold to tennogen afterwards, which could make them far more resource efficient long term if they are remotely desirable which deluxes on their own already proved the potential for. 

There was never a suggestion they needed to make a variant for all forms of a frame. That said, adding a small degree of gold trim is not exactly a trying effort. (early primes were not augmented all that much visually)

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1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

Also, how would you treat Excal Prime and a female skin. Would it really be worth designing a skin that just a few would/could actually ever buy?

Easy options would be:

a) don't do Primes and just allow the normal alt-sex skin in the same way that deluxe skins don't get Primed and Tennogen skins don't use Prime model by default (and have unoptimised appearance if you do choose to toggle Prime parts on).

b) use Nyx Prime's skin (maybe with out the extra bits, just the skin that goes over the basic Nyx mesh).

Excalibur and Nyx would be almost no effort to allow each others cosmetics and would open up a whole new set of options to those who main one or the other.

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